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NYC BQE Cantilever Replacement

Started by roadman65, December 07, 2022, 01:50:55 PM

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roadman65

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1fYvVt3ckfc&feature=youtu.be
Video of a possible solution to the crumbling I-278  in Brooklyn along the infamous 8 block long three level cantilever.

Though the video don't suggest a complete replacement is eminent, it points out the urgency of it needing to be ideally replaced.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe


The Ghostbuster

I believe that the BQE triple cantilever segment has only two likely futures: it will either collapse, or it will be closed and demolished with nothing to replace it.

TheDon102

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on December 09, 2022, 07:03:45 PM
I believe that the BQE triple cantilever segment has only two likely futures: it will either collapse, or it will be closed and demolished with nothing to replace it.

I hope they like truck traffic in brooklyn heights and downtown brooklyn....

mariethefoxy

#3
while a big dig like solution would be nice, I don't see the city spending that kind of money. They proposed it for the falling apart Gowanus section as well, and that they later rebuilt as is but with that extra HOV lane thing. if anything, I could see just a very plain reconstruction, probably shorten the cantilevers from 3 lanes across to 2 (right now its 2 with a shoulder).

I doubt getting rid of the freeway entirely would be a thing, even in the current anti-car DOT they have in NYC. The Sheridan Expressway they did because it had hardly any traffic on it to begin with, there were two freeway alternates for the same movements (Bronx River Parkway and I-87) and only a small portion of it stopped being a freeway, plus its getting a new flyover ramp to connect better to the Hunts Point Market.

Also I think if you asked New Yorkers what their most hated highway is, the Cross Bronx would probably score higher than the BQE

storm2k

It's the state that will spend the money, not the city. And the BQE is a critical link for trucks that can't travel on parkways or a lot of city streets to be able to move goods throughout the city, so it won't go away. They probably should have tunneled the Gowanus and BQE years ago, but money is money and there's only so much of it. Plus, NIMBYism in downtown Brooklyn is going to be a bear.

dgolub

I attended a public meeting from NYCDOT about this two nights ago.  They are in fact planning to replace it, although the exact plan is still in the works.  Right now, they're talking about some kind of tunnel or covered roadway with a park on top of it.  That's all fine and good, but they're talking about building it with two lanes in each direction permanently, which would be a disaster.  They say that they expect that NYSDOT and FHWA will force them to keep three lanes, but I don't know if that's really true or if they're just saying it to shut up people like me so that they can go ahead with their fantasy.  I urge other roadgeeks to attend these meetings in the future.  The people there all seem to think that the resulting traffic can be solved by "getting people out of their cars" and are oblivious to the fact that there's a lot of through traffic between non-urban locations that don't have feasible mass transit connections.  They need to know that there are dissenting voices.

Mileage Mike

Yes overall I see them replacing it but just two lanes would be an absolute disaster. The problem with the myopic urbanist view is that it's short sighted about where traffic comes from and why it's on this road. They seem to believe the goods that are stocked in their coffee shops, cafes, Targets, and grocery stores just appear out of thin air. With all the transit already in place in NYC, people who don't want to or can't drive already are not driving.  If the BQE becomes even more overburdened than it already is, some of that truck traffic will be transferred to the streets of Brooklyn because it will become faster than staying on the BQE. The Cross Bronx is the only other route across the city so unlike other cities, traffic will not just shift to another highway in NYC because there are no other highways. Additionally it's the only link between Long Island and New Jersey (the mainland) to the south. Whatever decision is made here, NYC will likely be stuck with it for the next 50 years so they need to get it right. While that video did explain that it needs to be replaced or something done with it soon, it didn't do a good job of explaining exactly why the road is so busy/important and most in the comments don't seem to get what's going on either.

TheDon102

I genuinely don't understand this obsession with two lanes instead of three. Insane.

roadman65

The video did state I-278 is the only interstate in Brooklyn despite I-478 at the Brooklyn- Battery Tunnel.  I'm guessing they forgot or being unsigned it's not in public eye to be noteworthy.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

TheDon102

Just to be clear, the I-278 corridor in brooklyn :
Verrazzano Bridge is 13 lanes, new Kosciusko bridge is 9 lanes..... but the section in Brooklyn heights is only going to be 4....... Make it make sense. Not everyone is getting off at cadman plaza.

MultiMillionMiler

Quote from: TheDon102 on December 17, 2022, 05:31:17 PM
Just to be clear, the I-278 corridor in brooklyn :
Verrazzano Bridge is 13 lanes, new Kosciusko bridge is 9 lanes..... but the section in Brooklyn heights is only going to be 4....... Make it make sense. Not everyone is getting off at cadman plaza.

Well, the Jersey Turnpike goes from 14 to 4 lanes, but that's because of traffic levels dropping obviously. Hell, even the Turnpike may end up being 6 lanes south of exit 4, but the BQE needs the most lanes within the city. How they decide the number of lanes makes no sense. Well, hopefully if there BQE is placed within a tunnel it will be straighter and not have all those flip-your-car-over curves.

mariethefoxy

Quote from: TheDon102 on December 17, 2022, 05:31:17 PM
Just to be clear, the I-278 corridor in brooklyn :
Verrazzano Bridge is 13 lanes, new Kosciusko bridge is 9 lanes..... but the section in Brooklyn heights is only going to be 4....... Make it make sense. Not everyone is getting off at cadman plaza.

A lot of people get off the Verrezano to go to the belt parkway which has a really bad merge situation that needs fixing, part of the belt parkway.

If it's gunna be 4 I hope it's gunna have a shoulder with it too, for the eventual broken down car or truck. Also with all the extra space opened up from the Verrazano bridge toll, they should make a weigh station there to catch the overweight trucks

Duke87

Quote from: TheDon102 on December 17, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
I genuinely don't understand this obsession with two lanes instead of three. Insane.

Well, there are a lot of loud voices from people who want that part of the BQE gone entirely or rebuilt as a truck-only roadway. Many controversial freeway projects in the past have had reducing the number of travel lanes be part of the compromise that allows them to be built at all; it's not unthinkable for something like that to play out here. In which case, well, a 4 lane BQE is better than a 0 lane BQE, take what you can get.

Long term I'm not convinced only 4 lanes through there would actually be as disastrous as one might think. Due to the ramp configurations with the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges you already have only 4 thru lanes just north of the triple cantilever anyway. Now, it still backs up a lot now because of all the traffic coming off of the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges... but a lot of that is motivated by people not wanting to pay the Battery Tunnel toll. Once congestion pricing goes live, there will no longer be any financial incentive to take one of those bridges over the tunnel, and in theory this should be expected to remove some traffic from the triple cantilever section.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

MultiMillionMiler

They aren't going to remove the Brooklyn battery tunnel toll once congestion pricing hits? And actually, that would probably worsen BQE traffic because everyone will divert to staten island to get to Jersey instead of Manhattan, since that toll is now no longer more expensive with the 2 bridges.

TheDon102

Quote from: Duke87 on December 23, 2022, 01:41:52 AM
Quote from: TheDon102 on December 17, 2022, 01:28:32 PM
I genuinely don't understand this obsession with two lanes instead of three. Insane.

Well, there are a lot of loud voices from people who want that part of the BQE gone entirely or rebuilt as a truck-only roadway. Many controversial freeway projects in the past have had reducing the number of travel lanes be part of the compromise that allows them to be built at all; it's not unthinkable for something like that to play out here. In which case, well, a 4 lane BQE is better than a 0 lane BQE, take what you can get.

Long term I'm not convinced only 4 lanes through there would actually be as disastrous as one might think. Due to the ramp configurations with the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges you already have only 4 thru lanes just north of the triple cantilever anyway. Now, it still backs up a lot now because of all the traffic coming off of the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges... but a lot of that is motivated by people not wanting to pay the Battery Tunnel toll. Once congestion pricing goes live, there will no longer be any financial incentive to take one of those bridges over the tunnel, and in theory this should be expected to remove some traffic from the triple cantilever section.


The section between brooklyn bridge and manhattan bridge was 6 lanes at one point... but your point stands that a 4 lane bqe is better than a 0 lane one,  completely agree.

vdeane

#15
Quote from: Duke87 on December 23, 2022, 01:41:52 AM
Now, it still backs up a lot now because of all the traffic coming off of the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges... but a lot of that is motivated by people not wanting to pay the Battery Tunnel toll. Once congestion pricing goes live, there will no longer be any financial incentive to take one of those bridges over the tunnel, and in theory this should be expected to remove some traffic from the triple cantilever section.
That depends on where everyone is going.  Sadly, the toll fairness from the Move NY Fair plan did not survive into the final proposal, though that's not too noticeable with the way vehicles taking the tunnels get a the amount discounted from their congestion pricing charge... except traffic to FDR Drive, which is exempt from congestion pricing (as is West Street).  As a result, traffic heading to somewhere north of 59th Street will still have an incentive to avoid the Battery Tunnel toll.

And if NJ-LI traffic on that stretch increases, it could be a wash.  Given how I was in stop and go traffic even on a Sunday at 9 AM in a holiday weekend, I'm sure there's a not insignificant amount of thru traffic on that stretch.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

dgolub

Quote from: Mileage Mike on December 17, 2022, 09:57:43 AM
With all the transit already in place in NYC, people who don't want to or can't drive already are not driving.

This isn't quite entirely true.  There are some areas, such as eastern Queens, that don't have good transit, and people drive into Manhattan from there as a result.  No one is seriously talking about extending subway lines into eastern Queens as this point, though.  If we're serious about increasing transit usage, let's do that first and see the effect before we start reducing lane capacity.

Rothman

Quote from: dgolub on December 24, 2022, 08:37:43 AM
Quote from: Mileage Mike on December 17, 2022, 09:57:43 AM
With all the transit already in place in NYC, people who don't want to or can't drive already are not driving.

This isn't quite entirely true.  There are some areas, such as eastern Queens, that don't have good transit, and people drive into Manhattan from there as a result.  No one is seriously talking about extending subway lines into eastern Queens as this point, though.  If we're serious about increasing transit usage, let's do that first and see the effect before we start reducing lane capacity.
Not sure if the woes of MTA in recent years have put a damper on ridership as well.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.



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