Should WISDOT get rid of routes parallel to Interstates?

Started by peterj920, January 14, 2025, 04:10:39 PM

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peterj920

WIS 175 runs along the old alignment of US 41 between Fond Du Lac and Milwaukee while US 12 and Wis 16 mostly run parallel to I-90/94 northwest of Wisconsin Dells.

When I-43 replaced old alignments of US 141 and Wis 15, those alignments became County Roads. Why not turn Wis 175 back to the county as well as parallel sections of US 12 and Wis 16? To continue the routes US 12 could be moved onto I-94 between Wis Dells and Black River Falls and between Eau Claire and Hudson.

Wis 16 could either be truncated at Wis Dells with a new highway designation west of Sparta or run concurrent with the interstates as well.

One more route that could also go back to the counties is US 53 between Osseo and Eau Claire which could easily be moved to I-94.

This would free up state highway mileage that WISDOT could use elsewhere instead of along parallel redundant roads that are only used for local traffic.


TheHighwayMan3561

Whenever this discussion comes up the consensus seems overwhelmingly no, usually with people citing US/state routes as better dependability for alternate routes if they are needed.

Minnesota as a contrasting example of a state that did turn back those redundant routes, tough to be sure if it makes a difference or not.
I make Poiponen look smart

PColumbus73


SEWIGuy

The counties don't want them turned back. It will end up being a big jurisdictional fight with winners and losers.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 14, 2025, 06:10:45 PMThe counties don't want them turned back. It will end up being a big jurisdictional fight with winners and losers.

I don't know how it is in WI. In MN the state gives the counties money for the roads they take over, so jurisdictions here tend to be more approachable about turnbacks (the infamous exception is the remaining piece of TH 101 in Carver County, the last legacy of an aggravating process that's lasted since 1988).
I make Poiponen look smart

peterj920

Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 14, 2025, 05:19:32 PMGuess it depends. I saw a couple places where WI 175 is also signed as ALT I-41, so there might be an incentive to keep it.

Although, I found this oddity where an intersection had ALT I-41 signed in three places at a four-way stop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4214142,-88.3753352,3a,61y,107.22h,83.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxb43WvSpgy8C49w-bp0weQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.882247880161373%26panoid%3Dxb43WvSpgy8C49w-bp0weQ%26yaw%3D107.2159762608544!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

There was a grade separation with a jug handle until 2005 when the bridge was replaced with an at grade 4 way stop. Here's pics from the Wisconsin Historical Society.

https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Property/HI46031

Molandfreak

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on January 14, 2025, 06:14:38 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 14, 2025, 06:10:45 PMThe counties don't want them turned back. It will end up being a big jurisdictional fight with winners and losers.

I don't know how it is in WI. In MN the state gives the counties money for the roads they take over, so jurisdictions here tend to be more approachable about turnbacks (the infamous exception is the remaining piece of TH 101 in Carver County, the last legacy of an aggravating process that's lasted since 1988).
Minnesota's county roads can continue to receive state funding for maintenance in perpetuity as long as they are included in the county state-aid highway system. WI doesn't seem to have the equivalent of that.

Overall, the counties do a good job of maintaining the frontage roads—a much better job than the state would do considering it would be lower on the priority list. However, there is a problem with what was done during the construction of I-35 between exit 84 and 85 in Lakeville. They ended up mangling the old US 65/TH 165 alignment in the area, so there isn't a thru frontage road there and anyone looking for an alternate would be forced to drive all the way to the CSAH 50/CSAH 60 roundabout. That wouldn't have happened under the WisDOT philosophy of keeping the old alignments as US highways.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

Revive 755

Quote from: peterj920 on January 14, 2025, 04:10:39 PMThis would free up state highway mileage that WISDOT could use elsewhere instead of along parallel redundant roads that are only used for local traffic.

Although I wouldn't have a problem with WI 311 going away, IMHO they would be better either reevaluating the size of the mileage cap or abolishing it altogether.

The Ghostbuster

STH 175 has existed since US 41 was moved onto its present alignment in 1952: https://wisconsinhighways.org/listings/WiscHwys170-179.html#STH-175. It has been retracted on the north end twice (and may be retracted further if the Interstate 41 interchange with US 151 is one day converted into a freeway-to-freeway interchange) and extended on the southern end once. I don't think it will be decommissioned east of the Interstate 41 Zoo Freeway in Milwaukee, but west of the Zoo Freeway onward towards Fond Du Lac is anyone's guess.

SEWIGuy

It's not as though there is a bunch of mileage that needs to be turned into state highways either. Sure there are some examples here and there, but most the state highways either system covers 99% of the most important highways in the state.

SSOWorld

If it is required to compensate for new routes? Why not?
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

FightingIrish

Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 14, 2025, 05:19:32 PMGuess it depends. I saw a couple places where WI 175 is also signed as ALT I-41, so there might be an incentive to keep it.

Although, I found this oddity where an intersection had ALT I-41 signed in three places at a four-way stop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4214142,-88.3753352,3a,61y,107.22h,83.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxb43WvSpgy8C49w-bp0weQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.882247880161373%26panoid%3Dxb43WvSpgy8C49w-bp0weQ%26yaw%3D107.2159762608544!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Wisconsin likes to sign nearby parallel routes as alternate interstates and other freeways, in case of closures, massive traffic jams, construction, etc. They are not considered official in reporting to the federal government - it's just a Wisconsin thing. And there could be several alternate routes as well - I-94 west of Milwaukee toward Madison has three of them. Alternate highways also have spurs connecting those routes to the main interstate (hence the weird directional signs). The system gets a bit too confusing if you think too much about it.

And yes, WIS 175 does carry the alternate routing for I-41/US 41 and US 45 (though US 45 branches off onto its own freeway in Richfield). There are many more ALT signs on the Washington County portion of WIS 175, which may be related to ongoing attempts to turn the road back to county control. That probably won't happen for a while, if at all.

All in all, WIS 175 is a nice non-freeway alternate to I-41. High speeds, nice scenery and rolling hills. I used it once driving north, as there was a truck accident near Lomira. I exited at WIS 60 and turned right on WIS 175, following it to its current terminus at US 151 just south of Fond du Lac.

Molandfreak

Quote from: FightingIrish on January 16, 2025, 08:24:35 AM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 14, 2025, 05:19:32 PMGuess it depends. I saw a couple places where WI 175 is also signed as ALT I-41, so there might be an incentive to keep it.

Although, I found this oddity where an intersection had ALT I-41 signed in three places at a four-way stop.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4214142,-88.3753352,3a,61y,107.22h,83.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sxb43WvSpgy8C49w-bp0weQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.882247880161373%26panoid%3Dxb43WvSpgy8C49w-bp0weQ%26yaw%3D107.2159762608544!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEwOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Wisconsin likes to sign nearby parallel routes as alternate interstates and other freeways, in case of closures, massive traffic jams, construction, etc. They are not considered official in reporting to the federal government - it's just a Wisconsin thing. And there could be several alternate routes as well - I-94 west of Milwaukee toward Madison has three of them. Alternate highways also have spurs connecting those routes to the main interstate (hence the weird directional signs). The system gets a bit too confusing if you think too much about it.

And yes, WIS 175 does carry the alternate routing for I-41/US 41 and US 45 (though US 45 branches off onto its own freeway in Richfield). There are many more ALT signs on the Washington County portion of WIS 175, which may be related to ongoing attempts to turn the road back to county control. That probably won't happen for a while, if at all.
The alt signage appears to be exclusive to Washington County, turning off on CTH-Q. South of there, there is another alternate that follows STH-100 and I-43. I would say this is in an attempt to sign alternates that can actually handle the traffic rather than signing them with the hope that they can be turned back in the future.

Side note that this is probably the only time that Google's tendency to document these alternates has been useful. ;-)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PMAASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

michravera

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on January 14, 2025, 04:40:02 PMWhenever this discussion comes up the consensus seems overwhelmingly no, usually with people citing US/state routes as better dependability for alternate routes if they are needed.

Minnesota as a contrasting example of a state that did turn back those redundant routes, tough to be sure if it makes a difference or not.
I'm not from not from and have never been in Wisconsin and have barely, if ever, been in its airspace. That said, what is the point of destroying that which has been created at great cost? If the cost of maintenance exceeds the value of the use, then sure, work out how to decommission the parallel at minimal cost. Until such time, keep on rolling!
`

SEWIGuy

Quote from: michravera on January 17, 2025, 01:17:03 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on January 14, 2025, 04:40:02 PMWhenever this discussion comes up the consensus seems overwhelmingly no, usually with people citing US/state routes as better dependability for alternate routes if they are needed.

Minnesota as a contrasting example of a state that did turn back those redundant routes, tough to be sure if it makes a difference or not.
I'm not from not from and have never been in Wisconsin and have barely, if ever, been in its airspace. That said, what is the point of destroying that which has been created at great cost? If the cost of maintenance exceeds the value of the use, then sure, work out how to decommission the parallel at minimal cost. Until such time, keep on rolling!
`


Nothing is getting "destroyed" here. The roads still exist.  The OP's original question may be a little broad, but there are stretches...such as US-12/WI-16 between the Dells and Black River Falls...where you can see the interstate from the state route. Relocating those routes to the interstate to free up highway mileage is not a bad question to ask, but I think there are very Wisconsin-specific reasons why the answer is "no."

LilianaUwU

Fictional?

Québec actually does the sensible thing in terms of roads for once, and the routes are followed by shield and not jurisdiction - though I will admit sometimes that signage is poor. Just in Québec City alone, QC 360 and 369 have turns that aren't signed. Also, the pavement quality can be poorer, though MTQ isn't that far better.

Anyways, Wisconsin might benefit from the "shield, not maintenance" thing, but there are cons to the idea as I mentioned above.
"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
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My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm an admin on the AARoads Wiki.

thspfc


SEWIGuy

Quote from: thspfc on January 17, 2025, 08:26:40 AMCertainly not US-12/WI-16. WI-175, maybe.

Yeah traffic counts get pretty small north of Slinger. From there to Fond du Lac is only about 35 miles though, about 7-8 of which there are multiplexes with WI-28 and WI-67. But again, this doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me.

mgk920

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 17, 2025, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: thspfc on January 17, 2025, 08:26:40 AMCertainly not US-12/WI-16. WI-175, maybe.

Yeah traffic counts get pretty small north of Slinger. From there to Fond du Lac is only about 35 miles though, about 7-8 of which there are multiplexes with WI-28 and WI-67. But again, this doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me.

Pehaps Wisconsin should look into the 'county/local maintained, but state marked' thing, sort of a mirror of the 'non chargeable interstate' highway thing.

Mike

vdeane

Quote from: LilianaUwU on January 17, 2025, 07:38:15 AMQuébec actually does the sensible thing in terms of roads for once, and the routes are followed by shield and not jurisdiction
Although, oddly enough, QC 136 (the new one) ends where provincial jurisdiction ends, where A-720 did.  I was hoping they'd extend it up Rue Notre-Dame and Rue Dickinson and take over Avenue Souligny to end at A-25 (which would have at least given us a silver lining to all this), but alas, they didn't.  The real one ends at an odd place too.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

PColumbus73

Quote from: mgk920 on January 17, 2025, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 17, 2025, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: thspfc on January 17, 2025, 08:26:40 AMCertainly not US-12/WI-16. WI-175, maybe.

Yeah traffic counts get pretty small north of Slinger. From there to Fond du Lac is only about 35 miles though, about 7-8 of which there are multiplexes with WI-28 and WI-67. But again, this doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me.

Pehaps Wisconsin should look into the 'county/local maintained, but state marked' thing, sort of a mirror of the 'non chargeable interstate' highway thing.

Mike

If there is an issue in funding maintenance, if Wisconsin has un-numbered state-maintained roads, maybe look into reverting some of those to the local jurisdiction, roads within city limits for example. Avoid doing something like I-465 with a dozen hidden concurrencies.

GeekJedi

I'm pretty sure that part of it is due to WisDOT now using freeway "alternate" routes. 99% of those are routed onto state highways. I'm sure that it's related to maintenance and capacity. They can control the maintenance on state routes, but not county or city roads.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

JREwing78

WisDOT also specifically has invested money into parallel routes (as County roads) to maintain emergency routing capability, one example being County G between Janesville and Beloit. This despite US-51 being only another mile away and (at the time) 4-laned.

dvferyance

I would be in favor of rerouting WI-26 out of Waupun and onto US-151. Is there some issue there? Is the city of Waupun unwilling to take the road or something? Now you say free up milage to use elsewhere is there some particular routes you had in mind? I know there is a millage cap of 12,000 miles but I beleive they are 600 miles under it so I don't know why there can't be some additional millage.

The Ghostbuster

If STH 26 was going to be rerouted to bypass Waupun, it would have happened when the US 151 bypass was completed in 1962. Since it still goes through Waupun to this day, I don't see it ever being relocated.



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