Toll Road Signage

[architect77]

Please move my post to another existing thread if so desired. Here are pics of North Carolina's 1st Toll Road: The Triangle Expressway. The first 3.5 mile segment opened today. As usual, NCDOT produces decent looking signage.




Here's the local news report:
http://www.wral.com/traffic/video/10476599/#/vid10476599

[mightyace]

On the toll rates sign, am I correct in seeing the toll rates and NC Quick Pass logo being bolt on signs?

This is more of a nitpick.  I would say this is NC's first MODERN toll road.  There probably were toll roads back in colonial days and the early days of the U.S. as there were in most areas.

[NE2]

There probably were toll roads back in colonial days and the early days of the U.S. as there were in most areas.

The first U.S. turnpike was in the 1780s (Snicker's Gap Turnpike in Virginia), and some lasted into the 1920s (Florida's Conners Highway was a latecomer, lasting from 1924 to 1930).

[Dr Frankenstein]

At least they don't charge a $5 extra for bill-by-mail like in Canada.

[hbelkins]

Is the NC QuickPass compatible with E-ZPass?

[Takumi]

Any idea of what's supposed to fill the right side of the BGS in the 2nd photo?

[architect77]

Is the NC QuickPass compatible with E-ZPass?

Yes. The WRAL news report states that the transponder is compatible "up and down" the East Coast.

[architect77]

Any idea of what's supposed to fill the right side of the BGS in the 2nd photo?

It will probably say, "To NC55", "To US-1 South" or some other intersecting route with the southern portion of Raleigh's outer loop. I hate that it must be designated as NC540 rather than I-540 (full loop will eventually be I-640/NC640)

[1995hoo]

Is the NC QuickPass compatible with E-ZPass?

According to the Quick Pass website, the answer is "not yet." It says that currently non—North Carolina transponders won't work in North Carolina, and the NC Quick Pass won't work outside North Carolina, but they're negotiating with SunPass and E-ZPass to try to achieve some sort of interoperability. Based on what the transponder looks like in the depictions on their website, I'd wager SunPass interoperability will come first because the device looks like a SunPass Mini. The problem is that many of the E-ZPass facilities still use tollgate arms when they converted the old "Toll Machine" lanes to E-ZPass, and the SunPass (or similar device) won't cause the arm to raise.

[vdeane]

Why didn't they just go ez-pass?  With VA being ez-pass, they're right on the border!

[1995hoo]

Why didn't they just go ez-pass?  With VA being ez-pass, they're right on the border!

"mtantillo" could give you a better explanation than I can, but from what he told me once before, I gather the SunPass Mini—style transponder is ultimately less of a cost for the toll agency because it doesn't rely on a battery the way E-ZPass does and so it need not be replaced every four to five years like an E-ZPass. He and I had a discussion about it in another forum and he said that most of the toll agencies outside of the Northeast have opted for the SunPass Mini—style devices in part for that very reason and that the E-ZPass style device is "old technology" (he didn't use those precise words, the quotation marks are mine). The sticking point on the E-ZPass states changing technology would be the cost and the hassle and the disruption. Of course, in my mind that doesn't necessarily address why Florida uses two different SunPass devices, one of them a hard plastic thing that looks more similar to (but not the same as) an E-ZPass and the other the Mini that looks like a Transcore gate opener (the complex where my wife lived before we got married used those). The "standard" white plastic SunPass looks to me like it would face the same issue about battery life as the E-ZPass, given that it has lights that come on to confirm you paid. The Mini is not supposed to be transferrable between cars because they want you to affix it permanently to your windshield, but that's bollocks; I can confirm from personal experience that it works fine if you just use Scotch tape to attach it.

Apparently the holdup on SunPass/E-ZPass interoperability is what I noted before about gate opening. From what I understand, the transponder won't necessarily work on the other agency's roads; rather, you'll be tolled by plate in that if, say, you're an E-ZPass user and you drive on the Bee Line in Florida, it looks up your license plate in the E-ZPass database, sees you're a customer, and bills your E-ZPass account (without the normal toll-by-plate surcharge, from what I've heard). Of course that underscores the importance of keeping your car and plate info up-to-date with your E-ZPass issuer.

[realjd]

Like 1995hoo said, EZ-Pass is outdated, expensive technology, and the fact that multiple states are members make it difficult politically to do anything about that.

As for the full white SunPass, the older variants did need a battery. The newer ones look the same but don't need batteries, don't beep, and don't flash. I wouldn't be surprised if they just stuck a standard mini on the inside of the plastic case to make it movable!

[roadman]

Please move my post to another existing thread if so desired. Here are pics of North Carolina's 1st Toll Road: The Triangle Expressway. The first 3.5 mile segment opened today. As usual, NCDOT produces decent looking signage.

Here's the local news report:
http://www.wral.com/traffic/video/10476599/#/vid10476599

On the BGS, I'm curious as to why there's so much space between the top of the panel and the cardinal direction/TO line.  Arrow per lane signs are already large enough without adding additional and unnecessary dead space.

Please clip excess images

[Duke87]

On the EZPass interoperability note, my understanding is that there's also a legal barrier to it in terms of privacy laws. It's been firm EZPass policy for years that transaction records are confidential and may only be released to the account holder or by subpoena, and some states in the network have laws requiring this. North Carolina, meanwhile, has no law regarding privacy of toll transactions and since the system is operated by a public agency the current legal interpretation is that the data falls under FOIA and therefore must be provided to anyone upon request - a glaring conflict with EZPass policy. So unless North Carolina passes legislation changing this, the two systems cannot be integrated.

[architect77]

On the BGS, I'm curious as to why there's so much space between the top of the panel and the cardinal direction/TO line.  Arrow per lane signs are already large enough without adding additional and unnecessary dead space.

Please clip excess images

I know. It looks like they aren't supersizing the text on these "turnpike" signs, which doesn't match the gigantic letters on the rest of the roads. For that matter, I also don't like these Texas-style gantry posts either. When I drove past a different segment still under construction a few weeks ago, I was shocked at how skinny the concrete columns were under the new overpasses. I mean they are noticeably different from the norm. I guess every dollar counts when a project is financed in this way.

[vdeane]

Why didn't they just go ez-pass?  With VA being ez-pass, they're right on the border!

"mtantillo" could give you a better explanation than I can, but from what he told me once before, I gather the SunPass Mini—style transponder is ultimately less of a cost for the toll agency because it doesn't rely on a battery the way E-ZPass does and so it need not be replaced every four to five years like an E-ZPass. He and I had a discussion about it in another forum and he said that most of the toll agencies outside of the Northeast have opted for the SunPass Mini—style devices in part for that very reason and that the E-ZPass style device is "old technology" (he didn't use those precise words, the quotation marks are mine). The sticking point on the E-ZPass states changing technology would be the cost and the hassle and the disruption. Of course, in my mind that doesn't necessarily address why Florida uses two different SunPass devices, one of them a hard plastic thing that looks more similar to (but not the same as) an E-ZPass and the other the Mini that looks like a Transcore gate opener (the complex where my wife lived before we got married used those). The "standard" white plastic SunPass looks to me like it would face the same issue about battery life as the E-ZPass, given that it has lights that come on to confirm you paid. The Mini is not supposed to be transferrable between cars because they want you to affix it permanently to your windshield, but that's bollocks; I can confirm from personal experience that it works fine if you just use Scotch tape to attach it.

Apparently the holdup on SunPass/E-ZPass interoperability is what I noted before about gate opening. From what I understand, the transponder won't necessarily work on the other agency's roads; rather, you'll be tolled by plate in that if, say, you're an E-ZPass user and you drive on the Bee Line in Florida, it looks up your license plate in the E-ZPass database, sees you're a customer, and bills your E-ZPass account (without the normal toll-by-plate surcharge, from what I've heard). Of course that underscores the importance of keeping your car and plate info up-to-date with your E-ZPass issuer.

You need some kind of way to make them portable.  This August, Dad had to borrow my car to go on a business trip in Albany.  I kept the ez-pass since he needed receipts to get reimbursed for the tolls on the Thruway.  That would not have been possible if I had a tag like the SunPass mini.

Also, there's a good chance I'll need my windshield replaced next year (there's a five inch crack in it), which would result in me having no transponder if I had something like the SunPass mini.  Since I have ez-pass, all I'll need to do is buy new mounting strips.

I'm not sure why you can't set up the booths to read both.

If the toll agencies would sell transponders rather than lease them cost wouldn't be as much of an issue.

[Brandon]

Also, there's a good chance I'll need my windshield replaced next year (there's a five inch crack in it), which would result in me having no transponder if I had something like the SunPass mini.  Since I have ez-pass, all I'll need to do is buy new mounting strips.

I'm not sure why you can't set up the booths to read both.

If the toll agencies would sell transponders rather than lease them cost wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Buy mounting strips?  ISTHA gives them away for free at the toll plazas.

[SP Cook]

There be a single national (international, including Canada) electronic toll collection standard.   Better cars should have the device built in, with proper (or improper) functioning indicated by a dashboard light or something in the multi-display center common in most cars.  Those who live in areas w/o toll roads could simply never establish an account and leave the device dormant.

[hbelkins]

There be a single national (international, including Canada) electronic toll collection standard.   Better cars should have the device built in, with proper (or improper) functioning indicated by a dashboard light or something in the multi-display center common in most cars.  Those who live in areas w/o toll roads could simply never establish an account and leave the device dormant.

Of course that would raise the price of new vehicles by about $2,000 or cause the unions to demand a $5 per hour wage increase. 

[1995hoo]

....

You need some kind of way to make them portable.  This August, Dad had to borrow my car to go on a business trip in Albany.  I kept the ez-pass since he needed receipts to get reimbursed for the tolls on the Thruway.  That would not have been possible if I had a tag like the SunPass mini.

Also, there's a good chance I'll need my windshield replaced next year (there's a five inch crack in it), which would result in me having no transponder if I had something like the SunPass mini.  Since I have ez-pass, all I'll need to do is buy new mounting strips.

....

As I noted before, using Scotch tape to mount the SunPass Mini (which means it's portable) works just fine, regardless of what their instructions say. When I asked about it this past June, other folks on this forum recommended using tape and it worked perfectly well on our trip this summer.

When I had the windshield replaced on my previous car, the windshield installer used a razor blade to pull off the E-ZPass strips; he then stuck them on the new windshield and it worked fine. (More importantly to me as a Virginia resident, he was able to do the same with the county sticker and the inspection sticker.)

[realjd]

Why didn't they just go ez-pass?  With VA being ez-pass, they're right on the border!

"mtantillo" could give you a better explanation than I can, but from what he told me once before, I gather the SunPass Mini—style transponder is ultimately less of a cost for the toll agency because it doesn't rely on a battery the way E-ZPass does and so it need not be replaced every four to five years like an E-ZPass. He and I had a discussion about it in another forum and he said that most of the toll agencies outside of the Northeast have opted for the SunPass Mini—style devices in part for that very reason and that the E-ZPass style device is "old technology" (he didn't use those precise words, the quotation marks are mine). The sticking point on the E-ZPass states changing technology would be the cost and the hassle and the disruption. Of course, in my mind that doesn't necessarily address why Florida uses two different SunPass devices, one of them a hard plastic thing that looks more similar to (but not the same as) an E-ZPass and the other the Mini that looks like a Transcore gate opener (the complex where my wife lived before we got married used those). The "standard" white plastic SunPass looks to me like it would face the same issue about battery life as the E-ZPass, given that it has lights that come on to confirm you paid. The Mini is not supposed to be transferrable between cars because they want you to affix it permanently to your windshield, but that's bollocks; I can confirm from personal experience that it works fine if you just use Scotch tape to attach it.

Apparently the holdup on SunPass/E-ZPass interoperability is what I noted before about gate opening. From what I understand, the transponder won't necessarily work on the other agency's roads; rather, you'll be tolled by plate in that if, say, you're an E-ZPass user and you drive on the Bee Line in Florida, it looks up your license plate in the E-ZPass database, sees you're a customer, and bills your E-ZPass account (without the normal toll-by-plate surcharge, from what I've heard). Of course that underscores the importance of keeping your car and plate info up-to-date with your E-ZPass issuer.

You need some kind of way to make them portable.  This August, Dad had to borrow my car to go on a business trip in Albany.  I kept the ez-pass since he needed receipts to get reimbursed for the tolls on the Thruway.  That would not have been possible if I had a tag like the SunPass mini.

Also, there's a good chance I'll need my windshield replaced next year (there's a five inch crack in it), which would result in me having no transponder if I had something like the SunPass mini.  Since I have ez-pass, all I'll need to do is buy new mounting strips.

I'm not sure why you can't set up the booths to read both.

If the toll agencies would sell transponders rather than lease them cost wouldn't be as much of an issue.

The SunPass Mini costs a whole $5 and comes with a $5 toll credit, so buying a new one is essentially free. And they sell a non-mini SunPass for $25 that mounts to the windshield with suction cups if someone really needs portability.

As for reimbursability, I don't know about EZ-Pass, but I can log in to the SunPass website and print toll receipts, airport parks receipts, etc.. At least with my company, I've had no problem submitting those for reimbursement if I'm traveling for work with my personal car (usually to/from the airport).

[roadman]

On the BGS, I'm curious as to why there's so much space between the top of the panel and the cardinal direction/TO line.  Arrow per lane signs are already large enough without adding additional and unnecessary dead space.

Please clip excess images

I know. It looks like they aren't supersizing the text on these "turnpike" signs, which doesn't match the gigantic letters on the rest of the roads. For that matter, I also don't like these Texas-style gantry posts either. When I drove past a different segment still under construction a few weeks ago, I was shocked at how skinny the concrete columns were under the new overpasses. I mean they are noticeably different from the norm. I guess every dollar counts when a project is financed in this way.

As far as I can tell from the photo, the legends and shields on the BGS appear to conform to current MUTCD standards for overhead signs (36" shields, 16"/12" destinations), with the exception of the oversized (looks like 15" high) "TO" legends.  Which still leaves the question - why so much blank space at the top of the sign?

As for the support structures, I agree - they look awfuly thin to me for the panel area.  I have to wonder if the project contractor was given specific detail drawings for fabricating these structures by NCDOT, or if (as the practice is in many states) they were allowed to develop their own design provided the design met applicable AASHTO loading and wind speed requirements and was approved by NCDOT.

[surferdude]

Please move my post to another existing thread if so desired. Here are pics of North Carolina's 1st Toll Road: The Triangle Expressway. The first 3.5 mile segment opened today. As usual, NCDOT produces decent looking signage.

Here's the local news report:
http://www.wral.com/traffic/video/10476599/#/vid10476599

On the BGS, I'm curious as to why there's so much space between the top of the panel and the cardinal direction/TO line.  Arrow per lane signs are already large enough without adding additional and unnecessary dead space.

Please clip excess images

Where is the "TOLL" Designation that should be above the cardinal sirection? 

[NE2]

I think you have the answer (it's not toll until next year).

[broadhurst04]

I hate that it must be designated as NC540 rather than I-540 (full loop will eventually be I-640/NC640)

I hate that as well. The loop construction got speeded up because the Damn Yankees in Cary got tired of driving 55 to RTP back and forth to work. They wanted their section of the loop built now, so it had to be a toll road which in turn means it can't have an Interstate designation. Which, by the way, I do not understand given that there are Interstate shields on other toll roads in other parts of the country. I have no reason to drive on the loop anyway, but even if I did I will avoid it because 1. I don't want to pay a toll to use it and 2. the difference in the designation between the North and South sides is a glaring embarrassment.