Nissan and Honda in merger talks

[Ted$8roadFan]

Not sure how I feel about this. I'm old enough to remember when Nissan was a reliable brand before they went to crap in the 2000s. As a longtime Honda owner, I really hope the quality doesn't go down as a result.

[Rothman]

Tesla's growth is really taking its toll on legacy automakers. We've got Nissan, Stellantis, and Volkswagen struggling.

Tesla? Hardly. Not even a top ten automaker. Mostly it's the rise of Hyundai and Chinese automakers.

Disagree. I've said before that every tenth car I see in DFW is a Tesla. That will only increase as long as Trump and Musk stay kissy-kissy. But I won't be in the market for one until they come out with a real pickup truck.

I think sales figures outweigh personal observation.

[Max Rockatansky]

Tesla only seems to be doing well in big urban markets where luxury cars tend to sell best. 

[hotdogPi]

Tesla only seems to be doing well in big urban markets where luxury cars tend to sell best. 

I'm not entirely sure about this.

https://chargehub.com/map/#/en/map shows a map of charging stations. If you look at each state's percentage of chargers that are Tesla by eyeballing it, New Hampshire is higher than Massachusetts. New York City is also low. I'm also looking at the area that was previously talked about (Dallas), and West Texas has a higher proportion than the DFW area. Also SLC/Ogden/Provo (low) versus the southern half of Utah (high).

I know chargers are not cars sold, but there should be a correlation.

[vdeane]

Disagree. I've said before that every tenth car I see in DFW is a Tesla. That will only increase as long as Trump and Musk stay kissy-kissy. But I won't be in the market for one until they come out with a real pickup truck.

Around here, Tesla only just graduated from being rare enough that seeing one was remarkable a couple of years ago.

[thenetwork]

Disagree. I've said before that every tenth car I see in DFW is a Tesla. That will only increase as long as Trump and Musk stay kissy-kissy. But I won't be in the market for one until they come out with a real pickup truck.

Around here, Tesla only just graduated from being rare enough that seeing one was remarkable a couple of years ago.

Tesla cars are all over Colorado, due to all the granola-eating, vegetarian tree-huggers who reside here, as they rank up there with the Audis, Volvos, Lexus, etc... that are status symbols to denote wealth.

Take a drive up CO-82 between Glenwood and Aspen and see how quickly the luxury cars dominate the highway versus economy and mid-size cars.

[Max Rockatansky]

Tesla only seems to be doing well in big urban markets where luxury cars tend to sell best. 

I'm not entirely sure about this.

https://chargehub.com/map/#/en/map shows a map of charging stations. If you look at each state's percentage of chargers that are Tesla by eyeballing it, New Hampshire is higher than Massachusetts. New York City is also low. I'm also looking at the area that was previously talked about (Dallas), and West Texas has a higher proportion than the DFW area. Also SLC/Ogden/Provo (low) versus the southern half of Utah (high).

I know chargers are not cars sold, but there should be a correlation.

Speaking for strictly the eyeball test they are a rare sight away from CA 99 around me.  Occasionally I'll see one around a National Park but not so much in the rest of the Sierra Nevada foothills or the farm boons.

[kernals12]

Interesting. Don't know, but does the USA anti-trust crew, or for that matter the EU, Brits or Canadian, have to sign off on this?   Nissan is in real trouble, and I would assume Japan would be all for anything that saves that many jobs. 

Fact is we still have too many "full line" automakers competing for the same customers.  If they just make a bigger Honda, then that seems a good idea, even if they maintain two dealer networks and rebadge some as Nissans.

Skepticism of large industrial concerns isn't as present in Japan, with all its Kereitsu groups.

[vdeane]

I was reading some comments on Reddit that suggest that this merger was basically the Japanese government asking Honda to bail out Nissan.  If so, I think it's safe to call it a done deal.

[Scott5114]

Will the combined company be called Ninda or Honsan?

[PColumbus73]

Generally speaking, the lack of diversity in the auto market is disappointing. If someone was trying to get a new, bare bones economy car on the cheap, their only choices are the Mitsubishi Mirage or the Nissan Versa.

Secondly, the prices are still inflated, whether it be from inflation, or automakers using the post-pandemic inflation as an excuse. When I went car shopping earlier this year, I found a better selection in the used car market in the price (monthly payments) I was looking for. When I bought my previous car, a 2007 Corolla with 132,000 miles, the price was somewhere around $8,000, this was 10 years ago. I bought a 2015 Avalon with 85,000 miles this year for $15,000.

It also feels like automakers are trying to market their cars as high-end luxury, but if they insist that a Nissan or Toyota is worth a luxury price tag then they are going to keep losing customers. Especially when those vehicles are mechanically subpar for the price.

[kernals12]

Will the combined company be called Ninda or Honsan?

This is the 21st century. Everyone knows you're supposed to give your company a name that is completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

[Scott5114]

Will the combined company be called Ninda or Honsan?

This is the 21st century. Everyone knows you're supposed to give your company a name that is completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

Alanland Motor Co. it is then.

[Rothman]

Interesting. Don't know, but does the USA anti-trust crew, or for that matter the EU, Brits or Canadian, have to sign off on this?   Nissan is in real trouble, and I would assume Japan would be all for anything that saves that many jobs. 

Fact is we still have too many "full line" automakers competing for the same customers.  If they just make a bigger Honda, then that seems a good idea, even if they maintain two dealer networks and rebadge some as Nissans.

Skepticism of large industrial concerns isn't as present in Japan, with all its Kereitsu groups.

The 1990s called.  They want their thread post back.

[Max Rockatansky]

Wait, so is SP wanting less "full line" automakers?  How exactly is that going to lead to anything but a bunch of uncompetitive lower tier market segments?   

[Scott5114]

Wait, so is SP wanting less "full line" automakers?  How exactly is that going to lead to anything but a bunch of uncompetitive lower tier market segments?   

Aren't we all dreaming of an automaker that will sell you an oil pan, two pistons, three wheel wells, a right headlight, a catalytic converter, a rear-view mirror, one windshield wiper, a timing belt, and a seat with no back and then when you complain that the car doesn't work, they tell you it's the free market and you can go fuck yourself?

[RobbieL2415]

Couple of thoughts.

The only thing Honda would realistically want with Nissan in the US is their intellectual property and physical plant. I could easily see them continuing the Nissan brand in developing markets, especially China. They could do what GM is doing with Buick.

The auto industry is a trickle-down economy, now. People who can't afford a new car or want a car at least cost and with minimal features will simply have to purchase on the used market. It's hard for me to see the value in paying >$25k for a new car, as someone who falls into the least cost/minimal features category. Growing up in the 90s and 00s, I've never seen cars as anything more than basic transportation machines.

[formulanone]

Toyota is the biggest player in the import market, and some years, the largest automaker worldwide in terms of sales (though some years, the Volkswagen Group is larger). Toyota has also created joint-ventures with Subaru and Mazda.

While Honda is pretty strong on its own, I can't help but feel they want to just pick up more market share. The one thing Nissan is ahead of the curve compared the other Japanese manufacturers is electric vehicles, although still a long way back from being dominant. Honda has a handful of small electric cars, but none destined for the US market, until they joined with GM on the Blazer EV (sold as the Honda Prologue). After that, I can't see too much that they need out of the deal other than manufacturing facilities.

I highly doubt they will rename Honda and probably not Nissan (unless it's just folded and made defunct into one company). The former is a proud last name, after all.

[Road Hog]

GM and Toyota flirted in the 1980s and I remember seeing a lot of blatantly racist wedding political cartoons.

[Big John]

GM and Toyota flirted in the 1980s and I remember seeing a lot of blatantly racist wedding political cartoons.

Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe being the last joint venture.

[Max Rockatansky]

Wait, so is SP wanting less "full line" automakers?  How exactly is that going to lead to anything but a bunch of uncompetitive lower tier market segments?   

Aren't we all dreaming of an automaker that will sell you an oil pan, two pistons, three wheel wells, a right headlight, a catalytic converter, a rear-view mirror, one windshield wiper, a timing belt, and a seat with no back and then when you complain that the car doesn't work, they tell you it's the free market and you can go fuck yourself?

I mean honestly it is hard to go down to Mexico and see the diverse assortment of "cheap by U.S. standards new cars."  A healthy Nissan at least could potentially contribute some decent entry level segment vehicles.  Pretty much everyone but Toyota and Honda are the only viable options for several traditional small car segments right now.  Nissan in theory could be that, but their brand is so tainted that it isn't likely plausible near term.

[RobbieL2415]

Wait, so is SP wanting less "full line" automakers?  How exactly is that going to lead to anything but a bunch of uncompetitive lower tier market segments?   

Aren't we all dreaming of an automaker that will sell you an oil pan, two pistons, three wheel wells, a right headlight, a catalytic converter, a rear-view mirror, one windshield wiper, a timing belt, and a seat with no back and then when you complain that the car doesn't work, they tell you it's the free market and you can go fuck yourself?

I mean honestly it is hard to go down to Mexico and see the diverse assortment of "cheap by U.S. standards new cars."  A healthy Nissan at least could potentially contribute some decent entry level segment vehicles.  Pretty much everyone but Toyota and Honda are the only viable options for several traditional small car segments right now.  Nissan in theory could be that, but their brand is so tainted that it isn't likely plausible near term.

I would love it if a manufacturer built a car that met all FMVSS requirements and nothing else.

[Max Rockatansky]

Wait, so is SP wanting less "full line" automakers?  How exactly is that going to lead to anything but a bunch of uncompetitive lower tier market segments?   

Aren't we all dreaming of an automaker that will sell you an oil pan, two pistons, three wheel wells, a right headlight, a catalytic converter, a rear-view mirror, one windshield wiper, a timing belt, and a seat with no back and then when you complain that the car doesn't work, they tell you it's the free market and you can go fuck yourself?

I mean honestly it is hard to go down to Mexico and see the diverse assortment of "cheap by U.S. standards new cars."  A healthy Nissan at least could potentially contribute some decent entry level segment vehicles.  Pretty much everyone but Toyota and Honda are the only viable options for several traditional small car segments right now.  Nissan in theory could be that, but their brand is so tainted that it isn't likely plausible near term.

I would love it if a manufacturer built a car that met all FMVSS requirements and nothing else.

I would also.  Trouble is no manufacturer seems to have ever been make a profit doing bare bones American cars. 

[Takumi]

Wait, so is SP wanting less "full line" automakers?  How exactly is that going to lead to anything but a bunch of uncompetitive lower tier market segments?   

Aren't we all dreaming of an automaker that will sell you an oil pan, two pistons, three wheel wells, a right headlight, a catalytic converter, a rear-view mirror, one windshield wiper, a timing belt, and a seat with no back and then when you complain that the car doesn't work, they tell you it's the free market and you can go fuck yourself?

I mean honestly it is hard to go down to Mexico and see the diverse assortment of "cheap by U.S. standards new cars."  A healthy Nissan at least could potentially contribute some decent entry level segment vehicles.  Pretty much everyone but Toyota and Honda are the only viable options for several traditional small car segments right now.  Nissan in theory could be that, but their brand is so tainted that it isn't likely plausible near term.

Honda and Toyota both have cars that fit the bill themselves in other markets with the respective Fit and Yaris (among others), but they both stopped selling said cars in the US after their previous generations due to lack of demand. (Honda marches to the beat of its own drum and steadfastly refused to make a performance-oriented Fit, but the lack of Yaris in the US is what prompted Toyota to make the GR Corolla.) The Civic is actually the largest car Honda sells in some markets.

With that said, I could see Honda possibly making its own versions of Nissan's larger trucks and SUVs such as the Frontier and Patrol/Armada...if they really wanted to. But they march to their own drum.

[Max Rockatansky]

Wait, so is SP wanting less "full line" automakers?  How exactly is that going to lead to anything but a bunch of uncompetitive lower tier market segments?   

Aren't we all dreaming of an automaker that will sell you an oil pan, two pistons, three wheel wells, a right headlight, a catalytic converter, a rear-view mirror, one windshield wiper, a timing belt, and a seat with no back and then when you complain that the car doesn't work, they tell you it's the free market and you can go fuck yourself?

I mean honestly it is hard to go down to Mexico and see the diverse assortment of "cheap by U.S. standards new cars."  A healthy Nissan at least could potentially contribute some decent entry level segment vehicles.  Pretty much everyone but Toyota and Honda are the only viable options for several traditional small car segments right now.  Nissan in theory could be that, but their brand is so tainted that it isn't likely plausible near term.

Honda and Toyota both have cars that fit the bill themselves in other markets with the respective Fit and Yaris (among others), but they both stopped selling said cars in the US after their previous generations due to lack of demand. (Honda marches to the beat of its own drum and steadfastly refused to make a performance-oriented Fit, but the lack of Yaris in the US is what prompted Toyota to make the GR Corolla.) The Civic is actually the largest car Honda sells in some markets.

With that said, I could see Honda possibly making its own versions of Nissan's larger trucks and SUVs such as the Frontier and Patrol/Armada...if they really wanted to. But they march to their own drum.

I mean hey, I just bought a new Corolla.  All the same, I'm a previous Sonic and Fiesta buyer (I once had GM and Ford family discounts).  The Fit and Yaris would have certainly been on my list if they were available. 

Worth noting, as shitty as my old Sonic was I never gave serious consideration to the Versa.  That probably speaks to my opinion or Nissan being quite low for a great deal of time.  That Fiesta wasn't a comfortable car, but it was pretty damn reliable.