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Former US President Jimmy Carter dead at 100

Started by bing101, December 29, 2024, 04:46:55 PM

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Scott5114

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 02, 2025, 10:15:27 PMI guess that I don't really care what people think they know or infer about me.

The problem comes when people think they know or infer something wrong and that becomes your problem somehow.

Suppose the cops are investigating a crime and your name comes up. You didn't commit the crime, and in fact have a pretty solid alibi. However, due to dirt on the lens causing the OCR software to register a 0 as an 8, the cops' plate reader shows your car was seen in an area that doesn't match your alibi. Now they want to know why you're "lying" to them.

If the system were fundamentally honest and fair, this would be easily rectified. But...
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef


Max Rockatansky

#126
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 05, 2025, 10:05:23 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 02, 2025, 10:15:27 PMI guess that I don't really care what people think they know or infer about me.

The problem comes when people think they know or infer something wrong and that becomes your problem somehow.

Suppose the cops are investigating a crime and your name comes up. You didn't commit the crime, and in fact have a pretty solid alibi. However, due to dirt on the lens causing the OCR software to register a 0 as an 8, the cops' plate reader shows your car was seen in an area that doesn't match your alibi. Now they want to know why you're "lying" to them.

If the system were fundamentally honest and fair, this would be easily rectified. But...

I mean hey, I gave an example of where I've been questioned by the police.  It wasn't the only time I've been questioned either. 

If you haven't done anything you don't have to talk to the police.  The burden is on them need to produce enough evidence to file charges or get cause even "search". 

I was pulled over once in Scottsdale circa 2007 because I forgot to pay my registration and it was a month overdue (forgot to change my address with the DMV).  The officer kept asking if he could search my car (a crap basket 2002 Mustang) during the stop and I told him no.  He tried to twist my arm about it and said it was suspicious I wasn't letting him search. 

It even got to the point where I told the officer that he could try to get reasonable cause to search my car.  He ultimately had to let me go and let me be on my way.  Although, there is a fair chance I was spite ticketed for the expired registration. 

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 05, 2025, 10:30:17 AMThe burden is on them need to produce enough evidence to file charges or get cause even "search". 

In theory, yes. In practice, no. Because cops don't need proof of criminal activity to legally declare you a suspicious person, and what constitutes "reasonable" suspicion is entirely up to the officers involved and can be invoked on cosmetic factors like you being nervous, your car being messy, you just fitting a description/stereotype, or any number of things unrelated to what you do or don't tell him, and a "better safe than sorry" view regarding guilty until proven innocent that dovetails with the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mentality referenced by vdeane, they can easily invent a narrative and for all practical purposes your rights end where a cop's reasonabe suspicion begins. Because a search is the only 100% way to prove guilt or innocence, cops who want to continue to pursue them either to prove a point that they won't tolerate you refusing one, or because they legitimately believe they've hit the big one, will always have a lane to do so.

Refusing a search is not supposed to be used while building their case against you, but a lot of cops do anyway because no one is going to do anything to them for it.
I make Poiponen look smart

Max Rockatansky

#128
Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on January 06, 2025, 10:42:40 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 05, 2025, 10:30:17 AMThe burden is on them need to produce enough evidence to file charges or get cause even "search". 

In theory, yes. In practice, no. Because cops don't need proof of criminal activity to legally declare you a suspicious person, and what constitutes "reasonable" suspicion is entirely up to the officers involved and can be invoked on cosmetic factors like you being nervous, your car being messy, you just fitting a description/stereotype, or any number of things unrelated to what you do or don't tell him, and a "better safe than sorry" view regarding guilty until proven innocent that dovetails with the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mentality referenced by vdeane, they can easily invent a narrative and for all practical purposes your rights end where a cop's reasonabe suspicion begins. Because a search is the only 100% way to prove guilt or innocence, cops who want to continue to pursue them either to prove a point that they won't tolerate you refusing one, or because they legitimately believe they've hit the big one, will always have a lane to do so.

Refusing a search is not supposed to be used while building their case against you, but a lot of cops do anyway because no one is going to do anything to them for it.

I mean hey, the car I mentioned was a shit box and looked the part.  I was in my mid-20s at the time and probably also looked probably the part of a supposedly younger male.  At the end of the day the officer didn't come away with anything even with all his questions and prodding.  Even if he found an excuse to search my car there wasn't anything to find.

And if anyone is wondering I was pulled over five times in that Mustang.  I only ever came away with a citation for the expired registration.  In one case Tempe officers pulled me over for not using the most extreme lane out of a parking lot.  They even brought a dog to sniff and obtain "reasonable cause" to search.  The dog didn't pick up anything and I was soon on my way.

And no, it isn't lost on me that I haven't been pulled over since January 2016.  I'm way older in appearance now, I don't drive beat up stuff like V6 Mustangs and my wife probably makes me appear probably less suspicious by default.  I'm also not insinuating they any of the above were enjoyable experiences or might not rattle someone's nerves if something similar happened to them.

vdeane

I mean, I'd rather not interact with the cops at all.  If I'm getting pulled over, that's going to ruin my day, regardless of whether anything comes of it.  And I've watched enough videos of police brutality, false confessions, and whatnot to have a more than healthy fear of law enforcement regardless of whether I've done anything wrong (crossing the border, too; I'm always worried about whether everything will go smoothly or whether this will be the trip where I end up like one of those stories of people who are detained for hours, have computers confiscated to be searched and have spy devices installed, etc.).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Max Rockatansky

#130
I mean hey, my entire life has involved interactions with enforcement.  My college education was in Criminal Justice and a large part of my job involved me interrogating and interviewing people.  I'm gathering that I probably have way more comfort (not that it is ever a comfortable process) being directly questioned than many in this thread. 

Rothman

I've never had a scary interaction with law enforcement.

Had one interaction with an "all hat, no cattle" law enforcement NPS ranger in VA once where he tried to berate me for some undeclared infraction, saying I was endangering my kids and whatnot.  Ended up that he thought I didn't come to a complete stop coming out of Cold Harbor, where the stop sign was behind an earthen berm you couldn't see around.

After his chestpounding, he gave me a warning, but warned me that I was in "the system" and that if I was ever caught again in a national park that the next ranger would know.

My kids busted up laughing.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Bobby5280

I prefer not to have any encounters with police officers at all, ever. And I'm a middle aged white guy. Far too often, a person legally refusing a request from a police officer to search his vehicle, give up his right to remain silent by talking, etc runs a risk of getting the living shit beaten out of him by said officer. Police officers are trained to de-escalate situations. Unfortunately there is a school yard bully culture of "I am the boss of you and I'll knock your teeth out if you make me angry" running through many departments across the country.

That kind of crap gets caught on camera all the time. I saw a news story the other day about a guy who was beaten to death by law enforcement officers while his hands were hand-cuffed behind him to a chair. I think that one happened in a county jail. Certain officers involved conveniently turned off their body cameras. But not everyone did. It makes me wonder how often these kinds of brutality incidents happened before the proliferation of cellular phones, dash cams, etc.

Even if a police officer follows proper procedure and the rule of law a citizen's rights can still be utterly trampled. The Military Commissions Act of 2006 greatly eroded habeas corpus. The law makes it possible for a person to be arrested and held indefinitely without being charged for anything.

Rothman

People who focus on what's shown in the media, whether mainstream or social, are suffering from selection bias.  It's like those compilations of idiots that can't find the U.S. on a map: They edit out the ones that can.  Polite police interactions don't make the news.

That said, how we accept "Obey me, or I have the right to shoot you" is repugnant.  I once saw a presentation by a police officer in Superior, Wisconsin where he proudly displayed all the non-lethal means he had at his disposal on his belt, which would have made Batman proud.  But, when it comes down to it, they reach for their gun?  And then the courts defend their actions, including when they shoot those that are unarmed?  Blech.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: vdeane on January 07, 2025, 01:01:03 PMI mean, I'd rather not interact with the cops at all.  If I'm getting pulled over, that's going to ruin my day, regardless of whether anything comes of it.  And I've watched enough videos of police brutality, false confessions, and whatnot to have a more than healthy fear of law enforcement regardless of whether I've done anything wrong (crossing the border, too; I'm always worried about whether everything will go smoothly or whether this will be the trip where I end up like one of those stories of people who are detained for hours, have computers confiscated to be searched and have spy devices installed, etc.).

As someone who was randomly targeted and searched by cops nearly two years ago, it's impossible to convey how traumatic it actually can be until it happens to you. They had no reason to stop me when they picked me as a target, and had to wait for me to give them one. I had no criminal history, wasn't missing any documents related to the car, driving with a valid license and insurance, etc. and they still demanded a search, then forced one when I refused. I was told I "was good" and could go when they were done. With how casual they seemed about some of it, this "search and release" seemed like a common occurrence for them.
I make Poiponen look smart

Max Rockatansky

#135
^^^

It is common which is more or less was the point I was trying to convey.  Being a single male of a certain age is going to likely yield higher chances of being pulled for pretext stops of all kinds.  The odds are even higher if you are driving something beat up or have out of state tags.  And that isn't even getting into the deeper rabbit hole of even more problematic profiling tactics like ethnicity.  About the best I can tell you is to know your rights, know what a consent search is and be ready to tell an officer "no" if the situation warrants it.

In my case I don't look at anything I described as something I would find as subjectively traumatic.  Although I don't think there is a way for these kind of interactions to not be at least somewhat irksome.

Out of all the times I was pulled over the one that frustrated me the most was in 2009.  I was in the middle of evicting a renter from my house in Scottsdale at about 9 PM.  She has stiffed me on rent three months in a row and I had to hire process server to come legally give her notice. 

On the night my renter was moving out she didn't have room in her truck for some of her stuff and her dog (a black lab named Huck).  I was really just sick of her at this point so I threw the last couple items and the dog in that same shitty 02 Mustang I already spoke of already). The route to her new apartment dipped onto a freeway ramp at AZ Loop 101 on the Salt River Reservation. 

As I was turning onto the freeway ramp the dog nudged me wanting to be petted.  A tribal cop happened to right there and pulled me over.  The officer made me do a field sobriety test which I passed because I wasn't drinking.  This was particularly frustrating because the dog took a disliking to the officer and I had to calm it down while explaining that I was evicting a renter. 

Yeah sure, that cop was at that ramp strategically to snipe down DUIs.  All the same the person to blame for that whole interaction though was that renter.  I probably shouldn't have been stupid enough to escort her dog in my car either.  My rationale thinking got outweighed by my desire to see this person gone.

bandit957

I was stopped and frisked by Park Hills Police just for traveling on a public right-of-way - although the right-of-way wasn't in Park Hills.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

Bobby5280

I've had a few encounters with police that weren't so great.

Two encounters were as a crime victim. I got robbed in NYC back in 1990 when I got off work after dark. The cops at Midtown South Precinct didn't seem to give a hoot. To be fair, the five boroughs of NYC were charting over 2000 homicides that year. If I didn't get severely beaten or killed the case must not have been worth pursuing. Despite what the media says NYC is friggin' Disneyland today compared to back then. My house in Lawton got burglarized about 15 years ago. LPD never caught any suspects. The investigation seemed like a "going thru the motions" effort. Several years later I did get back a handgun that was stolen in the burglary. Record all those serial numbers!

In Norman, OK I was driving down a frontage road at night on I-35, trying to reach a then-new movie theater. Some cop was, I guess, trying to direct traffic. The lady I was dating at the time was with me. The cop waves us thru with his flashlight, but then he stopped us and yelled his brains out at us. It scared the hell out of my girlfriend and got her very upset. I didn't do a damned thing wrong.

The worst is a phony, bullshit ticket I got in Lawton around 20 years ago for supposedly rolling through a stop sign near Central Mall. I waited at the corner for other cars to pass. The cop pulled me over anyway because he was training a rookie on traffic stops. I tried to fight it in court. But it was the cop's word against mine. By default the cop wins. Around a month later I get a telemarketing call from their police benevolent fund outfit asking for donations. I told the caller to talk to the fucking Comanche County Courthouse. They got all the donations I'm ever gonna make. Assholes.

Scott5114

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 07, 2025, 11:24:49 PMIn Norman, OK I was driving down a frontage road at night on I-35, trying to reach a then-new movie theater.

Was it the Hollywood Theater at I-35 and Robinson? If so, I wonder if you got tangled up in the mess where the west-side frontage road stops being two-way in front of the old Holiday Inn, and the guy was yelling at you because he thought you were trying to go the wrong way up the on-ramp or something.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

Yeah, it was the Hollywood Theater. IIRC, we went there to see the James Bond movie Tomorrow Never Dies. This was, jeez, 1997.

All I did was turn left off Robinson onto Interstate drive going Southbound. I was coming around the curve intending to take the first right turn into the theater's parking lot. This asshole cop was there, apparently just waiting to have a rage-gasm.

vdeane

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 27, 2025, 10:41:16 AMYeah, it was the Hollywood Theater. IIRC, we went there to see the James Bond movie Tomorrow Never Dies. This was, jeez, 1997.

All I did was turn left off Robinson onto Interstate drive going Southbound. I was coming around the curve intending to take the first right turn into the theater's parking lot. This asshole cop was there, apparently just waiting to have a rage-gasm.
I know sometimes when businesses are new and are expected to draw a lot of traffic, they'll restrict how people can get to a place to manage queuing.  I don't know why a movie theater would warrant that, but that's the only thing I could think of, if they had closed that portion of road and wanted everyone to loop around Northwest Boulevard.

That, or the universe really is a simulation and the cop with a NPC with a "begin rage-gasm" button that "God" could click for the lulz.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Bobby5280

This idiot started waving me through with his flashlight and then stopped me as I inched forward, yelling like hell as if I did something wrong. I can't recall there being another vehicle coming up from the opposing lane into the weird jug-handle that was there. All I can figure it was night time in early November and maybe not the best of weather conditions. So he needed to take it out on some civilians.

Henry

Time to lock this one up, because we're going way off-topic now.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Max Rockatansky

This has been way off topic for pages by now.  Although what else is there to say about Jimmy Carter's death?

Rothman

"Some of you were there, some of you weren't born, and some of you are now dead!"
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

vdeane

Quote from: Henry on January 27, 2025, 10:41:31 PMTime to lock this one up, because we're going way off-topic now.
You don't want to read about cops getting rage-gasms?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

mgk920

In a couple of days the flags will all be back at full staff.   I guess that we can finally get over Thomas Jefferson and John Adams dying on the same day - exactly 50 years after the Declaration of Independence was signed!   R.I.P.

Mike

Henry

Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2025, 12:35:53 PM
Quote from: Henry on January 27, 2025, 10:41:31 PMTime to lock this one up, because we're going way off-topic now.
You don't want to read about cops getting rage-gasms?
I never said that, but this is obviously not the right thread for it. We've already paid our last respects to the man, and he's buried next to his wife, so let's move on.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!



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