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PA Turnpike News

Started by mightyace, February 16, 2009, 05:29:14 PM

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famartin

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 01:46:52 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.


famartin

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Curves are solved by straightening, banking, or by lowering the speed limit. Widening doesn't help all that much and is considerably more costly compared to the better solutions.

davewiecking

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

I feel like I wandered into the wrong theater at the multiplex, but I meant to watch something I HAVEN'T ALREADY SEEN.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

I'm sure we've asked in the past, but how many crashes have you been in or seen the aftermath of in this area of roadway?

If I were to answer this myself, my current number is 0.

Crown Victoria

#2854
Quote from: Bitmapped on December 03, 2022, 01:07:51 PM
Quote from: Crown Victoria on December 03, 2022, 11:16:14 AM
Quick trip to western PA this weekend...and can confirm removal of the church steps in New Baltimore is in progress as part of reconstructing MP 126-130.

Not surprising. There was no safe parking for the stairs and the widening was just going to exacerbate the problem. Achieving ADA compliance would have also been tricky, requiring long ramps, and the new Findley Street bridge was built without a sidewalk.

Not to mention the federal government would never allow the steps to remain. It's a miracle they made it this long!

Quote from: MASTERNC on November 28, 2022, 11:49:08 AM
Drove through the construction west of Somerset this week.  It looked like some of the new alignments were awaiting final paving, and there was paving on the eastbound side of the roadway.  However, I didn't see much done on the westbound side, which would make it difficult to switch to reconstructing the inner roadway.

Yeah I noticed that myself. There were a few short stretches with pavement on the westbound side, but most of it is not paved. At this point in the year, I doubt much else will happen until springtime.

seicer

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Accident statistics prove otherwise.

MASTERNC

Quote from: famartin on December 03, 2022, 04:03:14 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 01:46:52 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.

famartin

Quote from: MASTERNC on December 04, 2022, 08:00:56 PM
Quote from: famartin on December 03, 2022, 04:03:14 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 01:46:52 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.

Busy is one thing... but are there actual backups?  Daily slowing down to 20-30 mph is typical along portions of 276, I don't see much sign of that occurring (holidays or otherwise) on the mainline further west. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the widening money COULD be better spent elsewhere (though I know they are also doing full reconstruction to interstate standards, something they didn't bother with when they 6-laned 276, so at least there's that).

MASTERNC

Quote from: famartin on December 04, 2022, 08:45:34 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on December 04, 2022, 08:00:56 PM
Quote from: famartin on December 03, 2022, 04:03:14 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 01:46:52 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.

Busy is one thing... but are there actual backups?  Daily slowing down to 20-30 mph is typical along portions of 276, I don't see much sign of that occurring (holidays or otherwise) on the mainline further west. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the widening money COULD be better spent elsewhere (though I know they are also doing full reconstruction to interstate standards, something they didn't bother with when they 6-laned 276, so at least there's that).

There are often stop & go backups during holiday weekends (especially Thanksgiving) on the I-70 overlap section in the areas I mentioned.  Elsewhere the issue is more trucks and slower vehicles clogging the left lane.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: MASTERNC on December 04, 2022, 08:54:45 PM
Quote from: famartin on December 04, 2022, 08:45:34 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on December 04, 2022, 08:00:56 PM
Quote from: famartin on December 03, 2022, 04:03:14 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 01:46:52 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

I don't see any sign of backups along the entire road, so such a widening is unnecessary. Certain sections do need widening, but what I've seen suggests they are actually the 3-lane sections of 276 which need it the most.

The sections west of Valley Forge are quite busy and can use the third lane (I know they are working on one section, with work on another starting in a few months).  The section between Somerset and Breezewood can get quite congested, especially around holidays, given the I-70 overlap.  Unfortunately, the one section east of Somerset will likely be the last to be widened because it was one of the first to be reconstructed about 20 years ago.

Busy is one thing... but are there actual backups?  Daily slowing down to 20-30 mph is typical along portions of 276, I don't see much sign of that occurring (holidays or otherwise) on the mainline further west. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the widening money COULD be better spent elsewhere (though I know they are also doing full reconstruction to interstate standards, something they didn't bother with when they 6-laned 276, so at least there's that).

There are often stop & go backups during holiday weekends (especially Thanksgiving) on the I-70 overlap section in the areas I mentioned.  Elsewhere the issue is more trucks and slower vehicles clogging the left lane.

Gotta justify the need for a widening for more than a handful of days a year. Nearly every road needs a widening based on that criteria.

If it was congested multiple times each weekend all summer long, then it's worth looking into a widening.

VTGoose

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.
"Get in the fast lane, grandma!  The bingo game is ready to roll!"

jeffandnicole

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 05, 2022, 12:36:58 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on December 05, 2022, 10:52:59 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

But most of those curves can't even handle the speed limit.

That's not unusual.  That's why God invented advisory speeds.

kphoger

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 01:46:52 PM
The Pennsylvania Turnpike should be 3 lanes in each direction the entire length, especially west of Exit 201 and east of Exit 226. It's way too windy and weavy to be any narrower. It needs widening to be a safe road.

Who let this troll in the thread?

Quote from: famartin on December 03, 2022, 04:39:01 PM

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Curves are solved by straightening, banking, or by lowering the speed limit. Widening doesn't help all that much and is considerably more costly compared to the better solutions.

This.  All another lane would add is a paved place for the flipped car to land.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

J N Winkler

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2022, 09:12:30 PMGotta justify the need for a widening for more than a handful of days a year. Nearly every road needs a widening based on that criteria.

If it was congested multiple times each weekend all summer long, then it's worth looking into a widening.

This is why the starting point for a decision as to how much capacity to add is the number of lanes required to accommodate the design hour volume at a target LOS that is often specified as LOS B for rural freeways and LOS D for urban freeways.  (The justification for using an inferior LOS in urban areas is that congestion is more tolerable in small doses.)  DHV is traditionally defined as the 30th highest hour in the design year, but in special circumstances (e.g., very high cost to widen and extreme seasonality of traffic) can be something like the 100th highest hour.

On this forum, we tend to discuss whether widenings are justified or not in terms of very crude present-day AADT warrants (e.g., 10,000 VPD in flat country for widening from two-lane to four-lane divided, or 30,000 VPD for freeway widening from four to six lanes) because that is the only form of traffic data that is conveniently available from most state DOTs.  The traffic modeling on which most actual widening decisions are based tends to be more closely held.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

MultiMillionMiler

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 05, 2022, 12:50:51 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 05, 2022, 12:36:58 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on December 05, 2022, 10:52:59 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

But most of those curves can't even handle the speed limit.

That's not unusual.  That's why God invented advisory speeds.

Well given the speed limit already drops to 50 or 55 around those curves, the advisory speed is likely 40-45 mph.

jmacswimmer

^

It was already discussed in your now-locked thread that the only locations where the speed limit drops from 70 to 55 (excluding tunnels & toll plaza approaches) is the stretch east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel & the stretch east of Bensalem.  I don't see any curve advisory speeds on the stretch east of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel (meaning 55 is appropriate for those curves), and from a quick GSV sampling 55-60 seems to be the typical curve advisory speed elsewhere.

If you're going to keep beating this dead horse, at least do it in your containment thread & stop polluting legitimate threads with this car-flipping nonsense.
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

ixnay

Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 01:11:56 PM
This is why the starting point for a decision as to how much capacity to add is the number of lanes required to accommodate the design hour volume at a target LOS ... .   DHV is traditionally defined as the 30th highest hour in the design year, but in special circumstances (e.g., very high cost to widen and extreme seasonality of traffic) can be something like the 100th highest hour.

"LOS"?  "DHV"?

zzcarp

Quote from: ixnay on December 07, 2022, 07:57:53 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 05, 2022, 01:11:56 PM
This is why the starting point for a decision as to how much capacity to add is the number of lanes required to accommodate the design hour volume at a target LOS ... .   DHV is traditionally defined as the 30th highest hour in the design year, but in special circumstances (e.g., very high cost to widen and extreme seasonality of traffic) can be something like the 100th highest hour.

"LOS"?  "DHV"?

These are traffic engineering terms.

LOS is Level of Service, generally graded from "A" in the free-flowing condition to "F" in the constant traffic jam/demand>capacity scenario.

DHV is the Design Hourly Volume, as defined above.
So many miles and so many roads

kalvado

Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 05, 2022, 12:50:51 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 05, 2022, 12:36:58 PM
Quote from: VTGoose on December 05, 2022, 10:52:59 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on December 03, 2022, 04:08:33 PM
Not because of the traffic, but because of how dangerously curvy it is west of Exit 201. Drivers need more room to navigate those sharp turns through the terrain without flipping their cars over.

Or people could just actually drive for the conditions and not have to worry about "flipping their cars over." If someone is that reckless then perhaps they shouldn't be on the road.

But most of those curves can't even handle the speed limit.

That's not unusual.  That's why God invented advisory speeds.
That wasn't God, that was Lord.
John F. Lord worked for Department of Highways in California; eventually retired from CalTrans.

qguy

^^^^^
That's priceless! :-D

ARMOURERERIC

Looks like the mainline mp 308 to 312 is next up on the reconstruction hit parade.  Bids open 2/1/23

Crown Victoria


MASTERNC

The question is why they still need to round tolls up to the next dime when cash is no longer collected. It makes the toll increase percentage meaningless because the actual increase is often more than advertised. E-ZPass and Toll by Plate can bill in one cent increments.

kalvado

Quote from: MASTERNC on January 08, 2023, 09:18:09 PM
The question is why they still need to round tolls up to the next dime when cash is no longer collected. It makes the toll increase percentage meaningless because the actual increase is often more than advertised. E-ZPass and Toll by Plate can bill in one cent increments.
Because this allows for slightly more cash under same PR and regulation stack?

jmacswimmer

Quote from: kalvado on January 08, 2023, 09:21:02 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on January 08, 2023, 09:18:09 PM
The question is why they still need to round tolls up to the next dime when cash is no longer collected. It makes the toll increase percentage meaningless because the actual increase is often more than advertised. E-ZPass and Toll by Plate can bill in one cent increments.
Because this allows for slightly more cash under same PR and regulation stack?

Yeah, I feel like it has to be to get slightly more revenue out of each increase with how deep in the hole they are from the Act 44/89 payments. I remember the increases did use to round each E-ZPass amount to the nearest penny and each cash amount to the nearest nickel, as recently as 2018 I want to say? (I remember the first time I used the NE Extension after opening my E-ZPass account in 2018, I paid $3.89 from Mid-County to Lehigh Valley.)
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"



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