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[kphoger]

I'm not sure any of my friends use a knife when they eat, other than for cutting.

To clarify:  I'm not talking about cutting.  I'm talking about just having it in your other hand.  That is, when you're done cutting, do you still keep it in your hand?  I hardly know anyone who does regularly.  I figured I was the weirdo.

[TheHighwayMan394]

I'm right-handed, but I use a knife with my left for efficiency when eating. As a result sometimes I forget to put it down since I don't use my left hand to eat with a fork.

[CoreySamson]

I'm right-handed, but I use a knife with my left for efficiency when eating. As a result sometimes I forget to put it down since I don't use my left hand to eat with a fork.

I'm the same way, except I'm left-handed so I cut with my right. Holding the fork with my dominant hand helps prevent the food I'm cutting from slipping around on the plate since my left is stronger.

[GaryV]

Another reason for reusable bags:

(e) The store can SELL bags with their name/logo on them, and
      (1) get free advertising
      (2) show how environmentally conscious they are
      (3) make a profit on them

[kphoger]

There's also the matter of where to put the boxes if I were to use boxes at Dillon's.  We get enough groceries to pretty much fill the entire cart.  At Aldi, that's not the case, so there's room in the cart for my cooler and on the bottom tray for a box.  At Dillon's, no such room in the cart.

I use paper bags at Dillon's.  Yes, I know they're worse for the environment than plastic ones.  I just really prefer taking four or five bags into the house rather than 61,350 bags.

[Big John]

Some restaurants give you a knife and fork set when you are first seated, then gives you a sharper knife when the entrée comes.

[1995hoo]

I'm not sure any of my friends use a knife when they eat, other than for cutting.

To clarify:  I'm not talking about cutting.  I'm talking about just having it in your other hand.  That is, when you're done cutting, do you still keep it in your hand?  I hardly know anyone who does regularly.  I figured I was the weirdo.

I sometimes use the knife while eating, depending on what I'm eating. Rice or orzo, for example, is easier to get onto the fork if you use the knife to push it into place.

[TravelingBethelite]

There's also the matter of where to put the boxes if I were to use boxes at Dillon's.  We get enough groceries to pretty much fill the entire cart.  At Aldi, that's not the case, so there's room in the cart for my cooler and on the bottom tray for a box.  At Dillon's, no such room in the cart.

I use paper bags at Dillon's.  Yes, I know they're worse for the environment than plastic ones.  I just really prefer taking four or five bags into the house rather than 61,350 bags.

I always thought of paper > plastic in terms of environmental friendliness. Wood/paper is at least somewhat a renewable resource, and the bags biodegrade on a human time-scale.

[wanderer2575]

I'm not sure any of my friends use a knife when they eat, other than for cutting.

To clarify:  I'm not talking about cutting.  I'm talking about just having it in your other hand.  That is, when you're done cutting, do you still keep it in your hand?  I hardly know anyone who does regularly.  I figured I was the weirdo.

I eat with my left hand (I'm a righty for everything else) and if I'm using a knife at all I usually keep it in my right hand even when not using it.  And I also use my knife to push food onto my fork.  Miss Manners would be aghast.

[kphoger]

I sometimes use the knife while eating, depending on what I'm eating. Rice or orzo, for example, is easier to get onto the fork if you use the knife to push it into place.

I feel that way about almost all food.  The only exceptions are those foods that are so sticky, there's no problem–like macaroni and cheese.

There's also the matter of where to put the boxes if I were to use boxes at Dillon's.  We get enough groceries to pretty much fill the entire cart.  At Aldi, that's not the case, so there's room in the cart for my cooler and on the bottom tray for a box.  At Dillon's, no such room in the cart.

I use paper bags at Dillon's.  Yes, I know they're worse for the environment than plastic ones.  I just really prefer taking four or five bags into the house rather than 61,350 bags.

I always thought of paper > plastic in terms of environmental friendliness. Wood/paper is at least somewhat a renewable resource, and the bags biodegrade on a human time-scale.

That's the way I grew up thinking about them too.  But consider how thick a paper bag is compared to a plastic bag:  they use a lot more total material.  Plus, the manufacturing process isn't exactly nice to the environment.

[Scott5114]

Does anyone have what I'll call step-symmetry habits?  Let me explain...

If I'm walking along a sidewalk, and my right foot lands on more than one or two cracks in a row, I feel a slight urge to even things out by stepping on a crack with my left foot.  The same goes for gradual inclines/declines with stair steps every so often:  I prefer to step up or down with each foot roughly the same number of times.  This is by no means a Monk-worthy compulsion, but it's a feeling nonetheless, and I'll often slightly adjust my stride to keep things more or less "even".

And, while I'm on the subject of feet...  Even though I'm right-handed, I prefer to leap with my left foot first:  jumping down from a platform, running hurdles, etc.  It's my impression that most people prefer to lead with their dominant-side foot, but I'm the opposite.  Landing on my right foot actually feels like landing on the "weak" foot, even though that's my dominant side.

I tend to lead with my left foot, but that's because of habits left over from marching band, where you're required to do so.

It is possible for one's dominant hand and dominant foot to be on opposite sides of the body–they are not necessarily linked.

One of my chores growing up was, every so often, to empty the aluminum recycling bin onto the garage floor, stand all of the cans up, stomp them flat, and put them all back in the bin.  Even though we don't recycle at our house, I still feel the need to flatten the cans.  I suppose it also comes from remembering the old slogan "reduce, reuse, recycle".  I always assumed the "reduce" part meant "make your trash as physically small as possible", but it occurs to me as I type this that it might have actually meant "reduce the amount of stuff you throw away to begin with".

My dad was an advocate of this philosophy.  He lived alone after my Mom died, and would crush all his beer cans once a week - probably a dozen or so each week.

I only crush cans when delivering them somewhere to sell for scrap aluminum (as that means I can fit more in the bag). The last time I had a fit of frugality, I had to spend hours crushing the cans (since my wife wouldn't do it, I had to crush all of hers and all of mine), but the thought of the reward of getting the money back kept me going. I finally found a place that would buy the aluminum–had to drive to Lexington, as the  scrap yard in Norman said "their aluminum guy quit" (okaaaaay...)–and got paid a whopping $8 for a 50-pound bag of crushed cans.

Now I just throw them in the city recycling bin, uncrushed, and let the city have the $8.  Whatever!

That's the way I grew up thinking about them too.  But consider how thick a paper bag is compared to a plastic bag:  they use a lot more total material.  Plus, the manufacturing process isn't exactly nice to the environment.

I think in this case the biodegradability wins out over the reduced physical material usage. And you never hear of a dolphin or something getting strangled by a discarded paper bag.

If you deign to get into the politics of it, OPEC has no say over wood pulp, so that's another advantage to paper.

[kphoger]

I tend to lead with my left foot, but that's because of habits left over from marching band, where you're required to do so.

Hmmmmmm...... now you've got me wondering if that's the case for me as well.  I think I started marching band before I started track.  Hmmmmmm......  No, I think it's more "natural" than that.

[jakeroot]

To clarify:  I'm not talking about cutting.  I'm talking about just having it in your other hand.  That is, when you're done cutting, do you still keep it in your hand?  I hardly know anyone who does regularly.  I figured I was the weirdo.

I used to cut everything up and then eat. At which point the knife became superfluous. But over the last several years, I've transitioned to cutting as I eat. I'm a righty; I use my knife with my right hand, and my fork with my left hand. And the kicker: I only set my knife down to take a drink or use a napkin or something. Other than that, I keep my knife in my hand while I eat.

[kphoger]

Wow, I had no idea I was surrounded by so many cultured, civilized people on this forum.  Or so many uncultured, uncivilized swine in real life.   

[webny99]

I wouldn't consider myself a master of etiquette by any stretch. In fact, I've learned a bunch more about it from this thread, so it's been interesting. However, I do feel I've been reasonably well-taught. I learned only put on my fork what I could fit in my mouth, for example, and I guess I sort of learned over time that it's neater and more proper to use your knife as a tool instead of stabbing stuff with your fork.

On a slightly different note, "all joints on the table will be carved" was a saying I remember hearing more than once back in the day.

[vdeane]

2.  Then why did they ever allow any reusable bags?

I'm not saying that non-coronavirus germs are actually a reason some stores still aren't allowing reusable bags.  I'm just saying it might actually be a halfway decent reason for them not to.

In order of descending snarkiness, possible answers to "why did they ever allow" are (a) that left-wing shoppers would boycott them if they didn't, and they don't want to lose out on that revenue;  (b) or they included it in their corporate responsibility report so their shareholders would feel warm and fuzzy inside;  (c) or because, in the beginning, the people in charge hadn't realized reusable cloth bags are actually worse for the environment than disposable plastic bags, and they genuinely wanted to do the right thing.

But, at any rate, we all simply weren't as worried about any germs back then as we are now.  I wouldn't be surprised if businesses became more hygiene-concerned even if the coronavirus were completely eradicated.  Who knows?

It's worth noting that reusable bags used to be the exclusive domain of shoppers who were specifically interested in using them, and obtaining, using, and maintaining reusable bags become a labor of love for them.  Now that many places are banning plastic bags and these bags are starting to be used by people who have zero interest in dealing with bags beyond carrying their groceries home, it will be interesting to see if the hygiene issue becomes important.

Early during the pandemic, Hannaford banned all reusable bags in the store.  In the spring, they changed the policy so that people could bring them in, but had to bag their groceries themselves.  I have no idea what the policy is now (NY started enforcing its plastic bag ban in the fall), as I've used the self checkout ever since March and don't plan on switching back after the pandemic.  One nice thing about reusable bags is that they're easy to pack once you develop a system for doing so, and it's nice to not have to constantly remind baggers that it's perfectly fine for a loaf of bread to sit on a carton of eggs.  Plus the Hannaford baggers won't make sure to put the plastic bottom piece on my Wegmans bags on the bottom (even if I tell them to), since their own bags don't have that.

Does anyone have what I'll call step-symmetry habits?  Let me explain...

If I'm walking along a sidewalk, and my right foot lands on more than one or two cracks in a row, I feel a slight urge to even things out by stepping on a crack with my left foot.  The same goes for gradual inclines/declines with stair steps every so often:  I prefer to step up or down with each foot roughly the same number of times.  This is by no means a Monk-worthy compulsion, but it's a feeling nonetheless, and I'll often slightly adjust my stride to keep things more or less "even".

And, while I'm on the subject of feet...  Even though I'm right-handed, I prefer to leap with my left foot first:  jumping down from a platform, running hurdles, etc.  It's my impression that most people prefer to lead with their dominant-side foot, but I'm the opposite.  Landing on my right foot actually feels like landing on the "weak" foot, even though that's my dominant side.

Yes to both.  The step symmetry issue is especially noticeable for me with detectable warnings, and annoyingly crosswalks tend to be sized such that I'll naturally hit the warnings on each side with the same foot unless I noticeably alter my stride.

[JoePCool14]

I tend to lead with my left foot, but that's because of habits left over from marching band, where you're required to do so.

I concur! There's some leftover roll-stepping too sometimes.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

One I've developed in the last year due to the lock down: When I take virtual trips on Street View, I almost always end in front of a Ronald McDonald House . A notable exception to this was when I did I-70 in Utah, as there are none nearby I ended at the Love's near Grand Junction instead.

[Scott5114]

I tend to lead with my left foot, but that's because of habits left over from marching band, where you're required to do so.

I concur! There's some leftover roll-stepping too sometimes.

Roll-stepping can sometimes be useful when you're carrying something like an overloaded plate or bowl and want to avoid spilling.

[kphoger]

There's also the matter of where to put the boxes if I were to use boxes at Dillon's.  We get enough groceries to pretty much fill the entire cart.  At Aldi, that's not the case, so there's room in the cart for my cooler and on the bottom tray for a box.  At Dillon's, no such room in the cart.

I use paper bags at Dillon's.  Yes, I know they're worse for the environment than plastic ones.  I just really prefer taking four or five bags into the house rather than 61,350 bags.

I always thought of paper > plastic in terms of environmental friendliness. Wood/paper is at least somewhat a renewable resource, and the bags biodegrade on a human time-scale.

That's the way I grew up thinking about them too.  But consider how thick a paper bag is compared to a plastic bag:  they use a lot more total material.  Plus, the manufacturing process isn't exactly nice to the environment.

I think in this case the biodegradability wins out over the reduced physical material usage.

Frankly, I don't think that's a given.  I don't simply assume that the biodegradability of paper bags makes them more environmentally friendly.

Manufacturing a paper bag takes about four times as much energy as it takes to produce a plastic bag, plus the chemicals and fertilizers used in producing paper bags create additional harm to the environment.

Studies have shown that, for a paper bag to neutralize its environmental impact compared to plastic, it would have to be used anywhere from three to 43 times. Since paper bags are the least durable of all the bagging options, it is unlikely that a person would get enough use out of any one bag to even out the environmental impact.

One study from the United Kingdom (UK) found that, regarding bag production, cotton bags have to be reused 131 times before they reduce their impact on climate change to the same extent as plastic bags. To have a comparable environmental footprint (which encompasses climate change as well as other environmental effects) to plastic bags, a cotton bag potentially has to be used thousands of times. Materials other than cotton, however, perform much better in sustainability metrics. Nonwoven polypropylene (PP) is another popular option. Made from a more durable kind of plastic, these bags need to be reused around eleven times to break even with the impact of conventional plastic.

link

What I've gleaned secondhand from various studies is that only a certain subset of reusable bag is actually better overall for the environment than conventional plastic bags.  While I love a good canvas bag, and while I prefer to have my groceries put in paper bags than in plastic bags, I realize the environmental toll in producing them is much greater and may exceed their other environmental benefits.

It seems the leading argument against conventional plastic bags is that they are not biodegradable.  That is to say, they degrade into microplastics.  Well, we've already had a discussion about microplastics, which included the comment below:

I am trying to find serious publications on the subject of microplastics - and they are much less alarming. Problem exists, but the scale seems to be way smaller than whatever is sold to general public.

[Scott5114]

This goes back to what I said about accounting tricks and environmentalism–if your focus is on carbon footprint, you'll get one answer; if it's on other pollutants, it's another, if it's sustainability, it's another, and if it's waste, it's another. A flimsy reusable bag may have a negative impact on climate change, but if my focus is on reducing the amount of waste that goes to landfill, it's a better option. Even if current studies may say microplastics are not a cause for concern, someone may still object to creating them, either because it's possible that the science is not yet advanced enough to pick up the full effects (i.e. it may cause a problem later on down the road that we just can't see coming yet), or simply out of a moral belief that unnecessarily introducing synthetic materials to the native environment is a bad thing.

And it's also about the particulars that go into making an individual object. Making a paper bag, for instance, takes up a decent amount of energy, but if that energy is produced by solar or wind, then it doesn't really matter. Some wood pulp providers clear-cut virgin forests, others only take x% of the trees and replant new ones to replace what they cut.

As regards reusable bags, I would think 131 uses is easily within the realm of possibility for a good-quality cotton or canvas bag. Assuming you only go shopping once a week, that's roughly two and half years of use, which doesn't seem impossible. And I occasionally use my shopping bags for toting things around the house, which isn't something I typically do with disposable bags.

[kphoger]

As regards reusable bags, I would think 131 uses is easily within the realm of possibility for a good-quality cotton or canvas bag. Assuming you only go shopping once a week, that's roughly two and half years of use, which doesn't seem impossible.

No, that doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.  I mean, I can easily envision someone not getting 131 uses out of a bag, but I can just as easily envision someone doing it–especially someone to whom the issue is important.

And I occasionally use my shopping bags for toting things around the house, which isn't something I typically do with disposable bags.

To me, the perfect answer would be to use bags you already own for general purposes.  Unfortunately in this case, I only have a single canvas bag, and it's not all that big.  But yes, the multiuse-iness of well-constructed cloth bags is a great side-benefit.  Conventional plastic bags have a more limited array of secondhand uses.

[kphoger]

To tie this side discussion back to the original topic...

One strange habit I have is to horde used cardboard boxes.  I think it first started back when I moved every so often (during my single, apartment-dwelling days).  I worked in warehouses back then, and getting similarly sized boxes for free was easy.  Over time, I developed the habit of almost never throwing a cardboard box away that I thought had the remotest possibility of being reused sometime in the future.

It got so bad at one point that I took the second and third row of seats out of my Grand Caravan and filled all the way up with cardboard boxes from the basement, then drove to the recycling center.

This drives my wife nuts.

(I had started to horde used paper grocery sacks too, but I've gotten over it.  For the most part.  Maybe.)

[Scott5114]

No, that doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.  I mean, I can easily envision someone not getting 131 uses out of a bag, but I can just as easily envision someone doing it–especially someone to whom the issue is important.

For sure. I've had a few bags that I didn't get as much use out of as I would like, because the cats* decided they liked the bag better with lots of holes in the bottom of it. I've also had a few that the handles gave out on, and I threw them away rather than trying to sew them up or use the bag without the handles.

To me, the perfect answer would be to use bags you already own for general purposes.  Unfortunately in this case, I only have a single canvas bag, and it's not all that big.  But yes, the multiuse-iness of well-constructed cloth bags is a great side-benefit.  Conventional plastic bags have a more limited array of secondhand uses.

Another thing that just occurred to me–you know what's an ethical, environmentally-friendly source for well-constructed cloth goods? Grandmas! I guarantee you if I ask my grandma (well, my wife's grandma, my actual grandma is more into painting than sewing) to make a bag, she'll put together something that will last until 2100. Probably made out of scraps from her quilting hobby. And she'd even let us pick the color.

If you don't have access to your own quilting grandma, someone you know probably has one you can slip a few bucks to. Or promise to play Scrabble or bunco with her. Grandmas are usually very flexible in terms of payment methods.

(I had started to horde used paper grocery sacks too, but I've gotten over it.  For the most part.  Maybe.)

I keep a few around for keeping glass recyclables around (Norman doesn't accept glass at the curb anymore, you have to take it to the recycling center). Dump the glass in the glass bin, then toss the paper bag into the paper bin. No muss, no fuss.

* I am saying this to be fair, because I have no proof, but we all know it was Freyja.

[kphoger]

Another thing that just occurred to me–you know what's an ethical, environmentally-friendly source for well-constructed cloth goods? Grandmas! I guarantee you if I ask my grandma (well, my wife's grandma, my actual grandma is more into painting than sewing) to make a bag, she'll put together something that will last until 2100. Probably made out of scraps from her quilting hobby. And she'd even let us pick the color.

My wife quilts.  Or at least she used to.

But a big advantage to heavier-duty canvas bags is the sturdy bottom.