Roadgeek Hot Takes

Started by CoreySamson, March 27, 2025, 11:11:17 PM

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formulanone

#125
I prefer the furthest city as lowest on the list.

If you know Big Far City is 50 miles away, you don't have to keep parsing that information first repeatedly every few miles. You're probably looking for the Smaller Near Town (which may not appear again on the next sign) since it is usually the distance to the next exit or intersection.

At the next mileage sign, knowing that Big Far City is now 42 miles away is incrementally more trivial.


gonealookin

I don't care all that much as long as there's consistency.

Here's one where Caltrans District 4 can't even figure out how to be consistent on the same gantry.  :banghead:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RNW7c7fBfWyewxc7

kphoger

Quote from: formulanone on June 24, 2025, 06:56:56 PMI prefer the furthest city as lowest on the list.

If you know Big Far City is 50 miles away, you don't have to keep parsing that information first repeatedly every few miles. You're probably looking for the Smaller Near Town (which may not appear again on the next sign) since it is usually the distance to the next exit or intersection.

At the next mileage sign, knowing that Big Far City is now 42 miles away is incrementally more trivial.

When you see a mileage sign, do you not process all the destinations listed anyway?

Do you not process "Greenville, 40 miles" and "Saint Louis, 125 miles" when you look at this sign—even if you're really only looking for the US-38 exit?  Maybe I'm the only one who does.



But anyway, I still think one would quickly get used to scanning the signs from the bottom up if that were the case, just as we already process overhead diagrammatic signs.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

CtrlAltDel

This reminds me of a Reddit thread from a few years back. One comment states that the Dutch studied the matter and found that it is beneficial to drivers that the elements closest to the top of the sign correspond to those furthest ahead. A consequence of this is that, on overhead signs, up-arrows are preferred to down-arrows. Here is a web site summarizing the findings. In any case, this is a change I could get behind.
I-290   I-294   I-55   (I-74)   (I-72)   I-40   I-30   US-59   US-190   TX-30   TX-6

Scott5114

I don't think they're inconsistent at all, or at least not in a way that matters.

A mileage sign is listed the way that it is because the way English is written, you start at the top and read down.

US 38 in 5 miles. Then Greenville in 40 miles. Then St Louis in 125 miles. You read them in the order that you will encounter them.

On the diagrammatic sign shown on the previous page, there is an arrow showing the path a vehicle will take. It starts at the bottom and goes to the top. You probably won't read the sign top to bottom, you follow the path of the arrow from bottom to top. Again, you read them in the order you will encounter them.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Scott5114

#130
Quote from: Quillz on May 04, 2025, 08:22:16 PMClearview is fine. It was fine in 2004, it's fine in 2025. It's not an issue and I doubt the vast majority of people even looking at BGS would recognize the font is different. I've said before that I think most of the hostility is simple nostalgia, i.e. "I saw a different font growing up, it's what I'm used to seeing," so of course Clearview is immediately seen as a negative.

My hostility toward Clearview at this point has nothing to do with nostalgia or the font's appearance. My problem with it is that it was sold to the American people as being a legibility upgrade, but that the studies used to support that were rigged heavily in Clearview's favor. And then when more recent studies revealed it was equal to or worse than FHWA Series (and that you could avoid most of the problems of E(M) by using E glyphs with E(M) spacing), we got asshole Congressmen trying to override FHWA so their buddies at Meeker and Associates could keep the grift up.

Nothing about that should be something we "just have to accept".
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

PColumbus73

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2025, 08:32:58 PM
Quote from: Quillz on May 04, 2025, 08:22:16 PMClearview is fine. It was fine in 2004, it's fine in 2025. It's not an issue and I doubt the vast majority of people even looking at BGS would recognize the font is different. I've said before that I think most of the hostility is simple nostalgia, i.e. "I saw a different font growing up, it's what I'm used to seeing," so of course Clearview is immediately seen as a negative.

My hostility toward Clearview at this point has nothing to do with nostalgia or the font's appearance. My problem with it is that it was sold to the American people as being a legibility upgrade, but that the studies used to support that were rigged heavily in Clearview's favor. And then when more recent studies revealed it was equal to or worse than FHWA Series (and that you could avoid most of the problems of E(M) by using E glyphs with E(M) spacing), we got asshole Congressmen trying to override FHWA so their buddies at Meeker and Associates could keep the grift up.

Nothing about that should be something we "just have to accept".

Agreed, some of the disdain is the principle of the matter.

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 24, 2025, 08:29:33 PMyou start at the top and read down.

you follow the path of the arrow from bottom to top.

I think that's only commonsense to you because it's what you're used to.

I have a Mexican road atlas that has a number of pages of "highway routes", which are line diagrams of city-to-city-driving routes with junctions and services marked along the way.  A (blurry) picture is shown below:



This is the last sixth or so of the suggested route from Mexico City to Tijuana.  Note that Tijuana is not only the northernmost point of the trip, but it's also the last point to be reached—yet it's at the bottom of the arrow.  On all of these line diagrams, the starting point and shaft of the arrow is at the top, and the end point and arrowhead is at the bottom.  'Up' does not mean 'ahead'.  'Down' does.

And this is how I've been planning out all my driving directions for road trips for years now.  Starting point at the top, ending point at the bottom.  The arrow points downward.  'Down' means 'ahead'.

This would actually make my road trip plan sheet consistent with distance signs:  nearest at the top, farthest at the bottom.

But I've started trying it the other way around more recently.  Once or twice now, I've plotted my arrow starting at the bottom of the 8½x11 sheet instead.  I'm not sure which I like better.

My point is that 'farthest ahead is at the top' when it comes to arrows isn't inherently more natural, but rather something we've just gotten used to by seeing upward-pointing arrows that mean 'ahead' out there on the road.  But, because we have gotten used to 'up' meaning 'ahead' on signage, then I think distance signs should follow that convention too.  That is to say, you should be able to move the mileage sign overhead, stick a mini multi-headed diagrammatic arrow on the side, and the sign should otherwise still make sense.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

pderocco

Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2025, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 24, 2025, 04:14:07 PMFor distance signs, we'd naturally rank distances from nearest at top to farthest at bottom.

What I'm saying is that that's less 'natural' than the other way.  Upward-pointing arrows mean 'ahead', so farther up more naturally means farther ahead.  Diagrammatic signs show farther destinations farther at the top, so farther up more naturally means farther ahead.

I imagine quickly getting accustomed to something like this.
I guess that's why they paint things like

AHEAD
SIGN
STOP

on streets.

kphoger

Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2025, 09:36:10 PM'farthest ahead is at the top' when it comes to arrows isn't inherently more natural, but rather something we've just gotten used to by seeing upward-pointing arrows that mean 'ahead' out there on the road

Maybe that's not entirely true, after all.  If you laid an arrow on the ground and looked at it, then the 'top' of it would be farthest away from you.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

TheHighwayMan3561

#135
Nothing against Glenwood Canyon because it's a beautiful area, but its status as a roadgeek pilgrimage site is overblown.

kphoger

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 25, 2025, 11:07:27 AMNothing against Glenwood Canyon because irs a beautiful area, but its status as a roadgeek pilgrimage site is overblown.

Uff.  That take is so hot, it's melting my monitor.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

pderocco

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on June 25, 2025, 11:07:27 AMNothing against Glenwood Canyon because irs a beautiful area, but its status as a roadgeek pilgrimage site is overblown.
Maybe if you literally mean just Glenwood Springs to Dotsero, but I-70 through the Rockies is the most beautiful extended stretch of Interstate in the country, and you could add the rest through Utah to that as well. If anyone asked me the best route between the two coasts, I'd simply say, go any way you want, as long as it includes I-70 through Utah and the Rockies.

kphoger

While I do think some other stretches of highway deserve a lot more shout-out than they ever get—especially De Beque Canyon—that doesn't diminish my opinion that Glenwood Canyon is properly rated as highly as it is.  No four-lane highway I've driven compares to Glenwood.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Henry

Quote from: pderocco on June 24, 2025, 11:25:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2025, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 24, 2025, 04:14:07 PMFor distance signs, we'd naturally rank distances from nearest at top to farthest at bottom.

What I'm saying is that that's less 'natural' than the other way.  Upward-pointing arrows mean 'ahead', so farther up more naturally means farther ahead.  Diagrammatic signs show farther destinations farther at the top, so farther up more naturally means farther ahead.

I imagine quickly getting accustomed to something like this.
I guess that's why they paint things like

AHEAD
SIGN
STOP

on streets.

From high above the road, it makes no sense, but it's obviously done to convey the same message to the driver in pretty much the same way as it would on a sign, albeit in upwards order.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

vdeane

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that induced demand, as New Urbanists describe it even, is, in fact, quite real.  My commute home on the Northway has been getting worse and worse every year, to the point where it's worse than it was pre-pandemic at this point.  The exit 4 project was done at the end of 2019, adding an auxiliary lane here where previously there was a nasty merge (and if you don't believe me, just spin the camera around).  The thing is, after a few years where things were better (which I attribute more to pandemic-era telecommuting more than the new lane), they've been getting worse, and all the new lane seems to have done is get people to merge at the end of the ramp rather than over the painted gore area (even when it's congested, I don't see people taking the lane to exit 5 and trying to merge there, or merging where a natural gap in traffic forms; they always try to merge right at the end of the ramp, regardless of the impacts on traffic, which is sadly still an improvement over the way things used to be with them merging over the painted gore).  I never used to have to divert off the Northway often - even if there was an incident, it used to move, and still be better than taking local roads.  Not any more.  If there's so much as a fender bender way off on the shoulder, it now becomes a parking lot.  Used to be serious incidents would make things bad enough to divert.  Now it's all of them.  And there's an incident practically every week.

I've never understood why, because surely, the people who were avoiding the road before the exit 4 project and telecommuting uncorked everything south of Latham would avoid the road after it became congested again, right?  It would make sense if it was caused by new development in Saratoga County, but it isn't, at least not completely, because the area around exit 6 also gets a lot more congested than it used to (there never used to be backups to go grocery shopping, but now there are).  But then I figured it out: freeways are like crack cocaine - once you get used to them, it's very hard to kick the habit, so even if conditions worsen to what they were before or even more congested, the people who started using the road due to less traffic don't shift back to whatever they were doing before.  They just keep using the road, despite the traffic now being what they previously would have considered intolerable.

Quote from: pderocco on June 24, 2025, 11:25:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 24, 2025, 04:28:02 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on June 24, 2025, 04:14:07 PMFor distance signs, we'd naturally rank distances from nearest at top to farthest at bottom.

What I'm saying is that that's less 'natural' than the other way.  Upward-pointing arrows mean 'ahead', so farther up more naturally means farther ahead.  Diagrammatic signs show farther destinations farther at the top, so farther up more naturally means farther ahead.

I imagine quickly getting accustomed to something like this.
I guess that's why they paint things like

AHEAD
SIGN
STOP

on streets.
Honestly, I don't like those pavement markings.  I know we're supposed to read them first to last, but my brain still insists on reading them top to bottom, so instead of "stop sign ahead" my brain will instead read "ahead sign stop".  Likewise, having destination signs with the furthest on top would be odd for me (and I don't encounter the diagrammatic ones often, but on the rare one I do, the arrows are probably the one thing that can override my brain on this).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

pderocco

Quote from: vdeane on June 27, 2025, 12:46:13 PMI'm starting to come to the conclusion that induced demand, as New Urbanists describe it even, is, in fact, quite real.  My commute home on the Northway has been getting worse and worse every year, to the point where it's worse than it was pre-pandemic at this point.  The exit 4 project was done at the end of 2019, adding an auxiliary lane here where previously there was a nasty merge (and if you don't believe me, just spin the camera around).  The thing is, after a few years where things were better (which I attribute more to pandemic-era telecommuting more than the new lane), they've been getting worse, and all the new lane seems to have done is get people to merge at the end of the ramp rather than over the painted gore area (even when it's congested, I don't see people taking the lane to exit 5 and trying to merge there, or merging where a natural gap in traffic forms; they always try to merge right at the end of the ramp, regardless of the impacts on traffic, which is sadly still an improvement over the way things used to be with them merging over the painted gore).  I never used to have to divert off the Northway often - even if there was an incident, it used to move, and still be better than taking local roads.  Not any more.  If there's so much as a fender bender way off on the shoulder, it now becomes a parking lot.  Used to be serious incidents would make things bad enough to divert.  Now it's all of them.  And there's an incident practically every week.

I've never understood why, because surely, the people who were avoiding the road before the exit 4 project and telecommuting uncorked everything south of Latham would avoid the road after it became congested again, right?  It would make sense if it was caused by new development in Saratoga County, but it isn't, at least not completely, because the area around exit 6 also gets a lot more congested than it used to (there never used to be backups to go grocery shopping, but now there are).  But then I figured it out: freeways are like crack cocaine - once you get used to them, it's very hard to kick the habit, so even if conditions worsen to what they were before or even more congested, the people who started using the road due to less traffic don't shift back to whatever they were doing before.  They just keep using the road, despite the traffic now being what they previously would have considered intolerable.
The basic fact is that you can't take advantage of emptier roads without making them less empty, and that's true of anything else that can get crowded. But no one says that we shouldn't enlarge a crowded airport or park because it will just fill up again with more people. The second fact, with respect to roads, is that people may want them to be emptier, but they also want a wider range of choices of where to live and work, which means that an empty road will cause some people to choose to move to a better house further from work, or take a better job further from home. I would call that a good thing on balance.

formulanone

#142
Quote from: pderocco on June 27, 2025, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 27, 2025, 12:46:13 PMI'm starting to come to the conclusion that induced demand, as New Urbanists describe it even, is, in fact, quite real.  My commute home on the Northway has been getting worse and worse every year, to the point where it's worse than it was pre-pandemic at this point.  The exit 4 project was done at the end of 2019, adding an auxiliary lane here where previously there was a nasty merge (and if you don't believe me, just spin the camera around).  The thing is, after a few years where things were better (which I attribute more to pandemic-era telecommuting more than the new lane), they've been getting worse, and all the new lane seems to have done is get people to merge at the end of the ramp rather than over the painted gore area (even when it's congested, I don't see people taking the lane to exit 5 and trying to merge there, or merging where a natural gap in traffic forms; they always try to merge right at the end of the ramp, regardless of the impacts on traffic, which is sadly still an improvement over the way things used to be with them merging over the painted gore).  I never used to have to divert off the Northway often - even if there was an incident, it used to move, and still be better than taking local roads.  Not any more.  If there's so much as a fender bender way off on the shoulder, it now becomes a parking lot.  Used to be serious incidents would make things bad enough to divert.  Now it's all of them.  And there's an incident practically every week.

I've never understood why, because surely, the people who were avoiding the road before the exit 4 project and telecommuting uncorked everything south of Latham would avoid the road after it became congested again, right?  It would make sense if it was caused by new development in Saratoga County, but it isn't, at least not completely, because the area around exit 6 also gets a lot more congested than it used to (there never used to be backups to go grocery shopping, but now there are).  But then I figured it out: freeways are like crack cocaine - once you get used to them, it's very hard to kick the habit, so even if conditions worsen to what they were before or even more congested, the people who started using the road due to less traffic don't shift back to whatever they were doing before.  They just keep using the road, despite the traffic now being what they previously would have considered intolerable.
The basic fact is that you can't take advantage of emptier roads without making them less empty, and that's true of anything else that can get crowded. But no one says that we shouldn't enlarge a crowded airport or park because it will just fill up again with more people. The second fact, with respect to roads, is that people may want them to be emptier, but they also want a wider range of choices of where to live and work, which means that an empty road will cause some people to choose to move to a better house further from work, or take a better job further from home. I would call that a good thing on balance.

I hate to add fuel to the fire, but lots of people don't want airport expansion (usually those closest to the airport or resent a great increase in tourism).

I know, don't live by the big noisy thing. But there's also the areas 3-5 miles out from the runways which also deal with an increase in traffic; though it's a much more incremental increase since aircraft movements rarely increase by larger percentages in short periods of time, unless it was already a small airport.

pderocco

Quote from: formulanone on June 27, 2025, 05:47:50 PM
Quote from: pderocco on June 27, 2025, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 27, 2025, 12:46:13 PMI'm starting to come to the conclusion that induced demand, as New Urbanists describe it even, is, in fact, quite real.  My commute home on the Northway has been getting worse and worse every year, to the point where it's worse than it was pre-pandemic at this point.  The exit 4 project was done at the end of 2019, adding an auxiliary lane here where previously there was a nasty merge (and if you don't believe me, just spin the camera around).  The thing is, after a few years where things were better (which I attribute more to pandemic-era telecommuting more than the new lane), they've been getting worse, and all the new lane seems to have done is get people to merge at the end of the ramp rather than over the painted gore area (even when it's congested, I don't see people taking the lane to exit 5 and trying to merge there, or merging where a natural gap in traffic forms; they always try to merge right at the end of the ramp, regardless of the impacts on traffic, which is sadly still an improvement over the way things used to be with them merging over the painted gore).  I never used to have to divert off the Northway often - even if there was an incident, it used to move, and still be better than taking local roads.  Not any more.  If there's so much as a fender bender way off on the shoulder, it now becomes a parking lot.  Used to be serious incidents would make things bad enough to divert.  Now it's all of them.  And there's an incident practically every week.

I've never understood why, because surely, the people who were avoiding the road before the exit 4 project and telecommuting uncorked everything south of Latham would avoid the road after it became congested again, right?  It would make sense if it was caused by new development in Saratoga County, but it isn't, at least not completely, because the area around exit 6 also gets a lot more congested than it used to (there never used to be backups to go grocery shopping, but now there are).  But then I figured it out: freeways are like crack cocaine - once you get used to them, it's very hard to kick the habit, so even if conditions worsen to what they were before or even more congested, the people who started using the road due to less traffic don't shift back to whatever they were doing before.  They just keep using the road, despite the traffic now being what they previously would have considered intolerable.
The basic fact is that you can't take advantage of emptier roads without making them less empty, and that's true of anything else that can get crowded. But no one says that we shouldn't enlarge a crowded airport or park because it will just fill up again with more people. The second fact, with respect to roads, is that people may want them to be emptier, but they also want a wider range of choices of where to live and work, which means that an empty road will cause some people to choose to move to a better house further from work, or take a better job further from home. I would call that a good thing on balance.

I hate to add fuel to the fire, but lots of people don't want airport expansion (usually those closest to the airport or resent a great increase in tourism).

I know, don't live by the big noisy thing. But there's also the areas 3-5 miles out from the runways which also deal with an increase in traffic; though it's a much more incremental increase since aircraft movements rarely increase by larger percentages in short periods of time, unless it was already a small airport.
Point well taken. But I think there's a difference in the current arguments about freeways, because much of the opposition seems to be about trying to limit the total amount of traveling people do. VMT and all that. There's always been some opposition to making anything bigger due to negative impacts on the immediate neighborhood.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2025, 07:52:57 PMWhile I do think some other stretches of highway deserve a lot more shout-out than they ever get—especially De Beque Canyon—that doesn't diminish my opinion that Glenwood Canyon is properly rated as highly as it is.  No four-lane highway I've driven compares to Glenwood.

I would probably give the Virgin River gorge on I-15 in Arizona the top spot, but both De Beque and Glenwood are definitely high on the list.
I-290   I-294   I-55   (I-74)   (I-72)   I-40   I-30   US-59   US-190   TX-30   TX-6

Max Rockatansky

#145
Waterman Canyon along CA 18 (four lanes to Crestline) is a masterpiece.  I never hear anyone outside of Southern California ever talk about the Rim of the World Highway.  It is signed as a freeway although I'd hesitate to call it one myself given it has shoulder viewpoints.

thenetwork

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 28, 2025, 12:31:01 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2025, 07:52:57 PMWhile I do think some other stretches of highway deserve a lot more shout-out than they ever get—especially De Beque Canyon—that doesn't diminish my opinion that Glenwood Canyon is properly rated as highly as it is.  No four-lane highway I've driven compares to Glenwood.

I would probably give the Virgin River gorge on I-15 in Arizona the top spot, but both De Beque and Glenwood are definitely high on the list.

Surprised thet DeBeque Canyon is on the same list as Virgin River and Glenwood Canyon, but as a "local" of Western Colorado who travels through DeBeque at least 1-2 times a week, I guess you look at it more as a "commuter road" and not a "Scenic Highway".

The narrow, winding sections along the route from Denver to Vegas (I-70/I-15) for me ranks like this (with one additional section):

1) Glenwood Canyon
2) Virgin River Gorge
3) San Rafael Swell
4) Debeque Canyon

pderocco

Quote from: thenetwork on June 28, 2025, 09:59:51 AMThe narrow, winding sections along the route from Denver to Vegas (I-70/I-15) for me ranks like this (with one additional section):

1) Glenwood Canyon
2) Virgin River Gorge
3) San Rafael Swell
4) Debeque Canyon
... as seen on the AARoads home page.

A little further down the list, I-80 just east of Salt Lake City, and I-40 crossing between TN and NC.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: pderocco on June 28, 2025, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on June 28, 2025, 09:59:51 AMThe narrow, winding sections along the route from Denver to Vegas (I-70/I-15) for me ranks like this (with one additional section):

1) Glenwood Canyon
2) Virgin River Gorge
3) San Rafael Swell
4) Debeque Canyon
... as seen on the AARoads home page.

A little further down the list, I-80 just east of Salt Lake City, and I-40 crossing between TN and NC.

I thought the Pigeon River Gorge was now the ultimately punching bag in the mainstream road world?  Or am I just super imposing Beltway's opinion into something more grandiose?



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