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Author Topic: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program  (Read 50463 times)

Jmiles32

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2018, 06:24:34 PM »

Some interesting updates:
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/11/expect-years-of-construction-md-beltway-i-270-toll-lanes-to-be-built-in-phases-from-legion-bridge/
Quote
Toll lanes around the Capital Beltway and I-270 in Maryland could be built in several separate phases and even operated by different companies under the latest plans released to industry insiders. It indicates Beltway construction could last for years.
The first phase would include fixes for the Legion Bridge.

A new document sent last week ahead of the next forum for private companies that could design, build and operate the lanes said that while Maryland eventually plans more than 70 miles of toll lanes from Frederick to Bethesda and from the Legion Bridge to near Oxon Hill, building out the entire network could take many years.

In addition to the already disclosed deferral of any toll lane construction on Interstate 270 north of the Shady Grove Metro, the new documents indicate that the rest of the toll lanes would be divided into entirely separate phases that could be awarded to entirely separate contractors.

To start, Maryland would only award a contract for toll lanes across a reconstructed or rehabilitated American Legion Bridge extending some to-be-determined distance into Maryland (Virginia is separately set to extend the 495 Express Lanes to just shy of the Legion Bridge to connect).

The private company or companies that would design, build and operate Maryland’s toll lanes would remain responsible for the toll lanes maintenance and upkeep for 50 years, but would not be responsible for any maintenance of the Legion Bridge or the regular travel lanes.

Overall, that first phase contract would be expected to cost $2 billion to $5 billion for construction and design, the Maryland document said.

One potential bidder, Cintra and Ferrovial Agroman, suggested about a year ago that a segment over the Legion Bridge should include the proposed toll lanes up the I-270 spur to Shady Grove, with another segment for separate bids to cover the Beltway from the I-270 spur to U.S. 50 in Lanham. That private group, which is building the Interstate 66 toll lanes outside the Beltway in Virginia, believes those would be the most profitable segments, and toll lanes south of U.S. 50 past Branch Ave. near Joint Base Andrews would make less money.

It is not yet clear whether that segment in Prince George’s County is the one Maryland plans to build last.
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Hope for “shockingly innovative” approach
For the initial projects, Maryland’s stated goals are congestion relief when the project opens, minimized impacts when possible during four to five years of major construction on each segment, a split of toll payments with state or a single upfront payment to state and accelerated delivery.

“In meeting MDOT’s goals, MDOT is looking for a partner with shockingly innovative approaches that will provide high value with a focus on ensuring excellent customer service to MDOT and the public,” the message to the industry said.

An outline of the public-private partnership agreement would be released this winter, and the state’s Board of Public Works would approve the continuation of the procurement process in February.

Final details of what the state is looking for in an initial project are now expected in early 2020, with bids due by summer 2020.

Maryland hopes to select a winning bidder and close the deal by the end of 2020, which could allow construction to start on a first segment of toll lanes as soon as 2021.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2018, 08:45:22 PM »

Some interesting updates:
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2018/11/expect-years-of-construction-md-beltway-i-270-toll-lanes-to-be-built-in-phases-from-legion-bridge/
Quote
To start, Maryland would only award a contract for toll lanes across a reconstructed or rehabilitated American Legion Bridge extending some to-be-determined distance into Maryland (Virginia is separately set to extend the 495 Express Lanes to just shy of the Legion Bridge to connect).

Of course a NEPA EIS/location process study and document needs to be completed first. 

I wonder what would be the feasibility for constructing the above to a 12-lane design like the I-495 HOT lanes in Virginia?  At least to the I-270 split.  Given the right-of-way constraints in Maryland.
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Jmiles32

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2018, 10:06:58 PM »

I wonder what would be the feasibility for constructing the above to a 12-lane design like the I-495 HOT lanes in Virginia?  At least to the I-270 split.  Given the right-of-way constraints in Maryland.

Definitely won't be easy. Will be interesting to see what "shockingly innovative" approaches the private companies come up with. My guess is that most will have the toll lanes built partially underground.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2018, 11:40:57 PM »

I wonder what would be the feasibility for constructing the above to a 12-lane design like the I-495 HOT lanes in Virginia?  At least to the I-270 split.  Given the right-of-way constraints in Maryland.
Definitely won't be easy. Will be interesting to see what "shockingly innovative" approaches the private companies come up with. My guess is that most will have the toll lanes built partially underground.

I just reviewed Google Maps aerial again.  Looks like ample space for a 12-lane design like the I-495 HOT lanes in Virginia, with at most 20 residential acquisitions.
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davewiecking

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2018, 09:59:37 AM »

The soundwalls are back pretty far from the travel lanes along this stretch. I'm not even sure any complete properties would need to be taken (unless the design requires hard barriers with extra shoulders, not just rubber bollards, between the roadways). One of the few tidbits of info I learned at the July workshop was that they were concerned about driver confusion with potentially changing rules for the lanes as drivers traveled north from Tyson's Corner-that seemed to be an argument for keeping the NoVa setup at least up to the 270 spur. The Old Georgetown Rd stretch (between the 270's) would be an ideal point to break up the Express lane standards.

CPZ had an interesting point above about MDTA's bond status possibly affecting plans to allow HOVs in the new lanes-it's not something I've read elsewhere, but at this point the local media is basically just reporting press releases.

There is an 84" WSSC fresh water pipe that was tunneled under the beltway (https://www.wsscwater.com/contents/news/2015/wssc-completes-10-year-long-bi-c.html) for 5.3 miles starting at Connecticut Ave. It's between 90' and 280' below the surface, and was bored thru bedrock. I don't recall any specific plans that the new lanes would need to interchange with all existing cross roads. Perhaps a truly express (bored) tunnel from the vicinity of 495/270/355 to 495/95 would be "shockingly innovative"?

Montgomery County Planning Department is working on plans to overhaul the Ga Ave interchange (https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/development/county-planning-department-unveils-preliminary-plans-for-reconfiguring-georgia-avenue/). SHA is reportedly working on plans to realign Ga Ave in this area, including wiping out the reversible lane. Maybe these 2 groups should sit down with those working on plans for new interstate lanes before they piss away too much money planning/building things that will only last for a few years.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2018, 09:08:16 PM »

It's important to keep the same standard for managed lanes that directly connect.  Beltway lanes should allow hov for free.  We saw very clearly the problems on 395 with different standards as you cross into Arlington with hov only lanes and south of there allowing toll customers but requiring all to have ez pass.  Let's not make the same mistake again.

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1995hoo

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2018, 09:29:32 AM »

I-66 allowing two people to ride free is a good example, too—someone who falls in that category who exits onto the Beltway HO/T lanes has to remember to flip the switch on the E-ZPass Flex while going down the ramp to the Beltway (I have done this a number of times and it's no big deal, even with the E-ZPass mounted on the passenger's side of the rearview assembly, but you do have to remember to do it). Of course that issue is scheduled to go away when the I-66 HO/T lanes open outside the Beltway, as VDOT plans to change the free ride to HOV-3 at that time for consistency.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2018, 08:38:59 AM »

I-66 allowing two people to ride free is a good example, too—someone who falls in that category who exits onto the Beltway HO/T lanes has to remember to flip the switch on the E-ZPass Flex while going down the ramp to the Beltway (I have done this a number of times and it's no big deal, even with the E-ZPass mounted on the passenger's side of the rearview assembly, but you do have to remember to do it). Of course that issue is scheduled to go away when the I-66 HO/T lanes open outside the Beltway, as VDOT plans to change the free ride to HOV-3 at that time for consistency.

Switching between two highways is theoretically less of a problem than continuing straight on the same main line, even if crossing the county or state boundary.  But I agree that it would be a lot easier if there were consistent rules on all managed lanes in the area.

I-66 inside the Beltway is a unique problem because there is no non-managed option.  The other highways provide free lanes for those who don't carpool or want to pay the toll.  For I-66, your option is to travel outisde of rush or to take an alternative routing.

California has a bunch of toll roads with different rules for HOV-2 and HOV-3+.  (I believe that during off-peak hours HOV-2 can ride free on I-10 but HOV-3+ can ride free during rush hours.  There may also be some roads that offer a carpooling discount for HOV-2 and a free ride for HOV-3+.)  For this reason the Fastrak Flex has a 1-2-3 switch that you basically set for the number of occupants and don't have to change in the middle of driving.
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davewiecking

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2019, 08:52:43 PM »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/hogan-plan-to-add-toll-lanes-to-beltway-i-270-heads-to-state-panel-for-key-vote/2019/06/04/6b91d488-86de-11e9-98c1-e945ae5db8fb_story.html?utm_term=.c08bcdae4311

Quote
The Maryland Board of Public Works voted 2 to 1 Wednesday to allow the state to solicit private companies to build and operate toll lanes on Interstate 270 and the Capital Beltway as part of Gov. Larry Hogan’s plan to ease traffic congestion in the Washington suburbs.

In a change to Hogan’s initial proposal, the I-270 lanes will be built first. Adding toll lanes to the American Legion Bridge and Interstate 495 in Montgomery and Prince George’s counties, which has been more controversial, will be phases 2 and 3.

Hogan said the American Legion Bridge, which connects Maryland and Virginia along the Beltway, needed the most immediate relief. However, he said he would “reluctantly” prioritize I-270 because it was less controversial than the Beltway, where widening would require destroying more homes.

See also https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/transportation/state-board-advances-i-270-widening-delays-beltway-plans/

and https://wtop.com/maryland/2019/06/divided-maryland-board-of-public-works-oks-public-private-partnership-for-highway-expansion-after-explosive-hearing/
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:00:06 PM by davewiecking »
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2019, 09:06:20 PM »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/hogan-plan-to-add-toll-lanes-to-beltway-i-270-heads-to-state-panel-for-key-vote/2019/06/04/6b91d488-86de-11e9-98c1-e945ae5db8fb_story.html?utm_term=.c08bcdae4311

Quote
The Maryland Board of Public Works voted 2 to 1 Wednesday to allow the state to solicit private companies to build and operate toll lanes on Interstate 270 and the Capital Beltway as part of Gov. Larry Hogan’s plan to ease traffic congestion in the Washington suburbs.

In a change to Hogan’s initial proposal, the I-270 lanes will be built first. Adding toll lanes to the American Legion Bridge and Interstate 495 in Montgomery and Prince George’s counties, which has been more controversial, will be phases 2 and 3.

Hogan said the American Legion Bridge, which connects Maryland and Virginia along the Beltway, needed the most immediate relief. However, he said he would “reluctantly” prioritize I-270 because it was less controversial than the Beltway, where widening would require destroying more homes.

See also https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/transportation/state-board-advances-i-270-widening-delays-beltway-plans/

and https://wtop.com/maryland/2019/06/divided-maryland-board-of-public-works-oks-public-private-partnership-for-highway-expansion-after-explosive-hearing/
From the way I'm reading these articles, and from what I'm seeing from the official websites, it sounds to me the whole plan for I-495 and I-270 are to add Toll Lanes. Not HO/T lanes. Toll Lanes. Everybody pays. HOV too.

The one article mentioned busses could potentially be free. That makes it strongly sound like a Toll Lane project, not HO/T.

Typical Maryland, same crap they put in near Baltimore. HO/T lanes are so much more respectable and have far more benefit than Toll Lanes do. Hands down.
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2019, 09:22:56 PM »

From the way I'm reading these articles, and from what I'm seeing from the official websites, it sounds to me the whole plan for I-495 and I-270 are to add Toll Lanes. Not HO/T lanes. Toll Lanes. Everybody pays. HOV too.
The one article mentioned busses could potentially be free. That makes it strongly sound like a Toll Lane project, not HO/T.
Typical Maryland, same crap they put in near Baltimore. HO/T lanes are so much more respectable and have far more benefit than Toll Lanes do. Hands down.

I agree as it allows vehicles at or above the HOV occupancy threshold to ride toll-free. 

Maryland E-ZPass probably doesn't have E-ZPass Flex transponder, but they could easily adopt what Virginia has.

Either way you would have dynamic tolling with the tolls displayed on VMS signs, it should not be more complicated with the Flex option.
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sprjus4

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2019, 09:26:06 PM »

Maryland E-ZPass probably doesn't have E-ZPass Flex transponder, but they could easily adopt what Virginia has.
The I-77 Express Lanes in Charlotte, NC opened last week, and they've incorporated Virginia's E-ZPass Flex on that system. HOV 3+ is free in "HOV" mode using a special "NC Quick Pass E-ZPass Flex" transponder, or you can use a regular E-ZPass Flex transponder that's used here in Virginia. It's seamless, and is a nice benefit North Carolina's HO/T lanes are using the same system as in Virginia. They have more HO/T lanes planned for I-485 in Charlotte, and I-540, I-40, and I-87 in Raleigh in the future. Wish Maryland could do the same.

Not to mention, there's going to be confusion as Virginia's side will allow HOV free, and Maryland will not permit it. Two different systems, two different agencies that can't create one seamless system  :no: Watch, next they'll say I-495's impact is too much that they'll only add 1 HO/T lane in each direction instead of 2   :banghead:

EDIT - Toll Lane, not HO/T lane, when referring to MD I-495.  :pan:
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:30:13 PM by sprjus4 »
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Beltway

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2019, 09:32:21 PM »

Maryland E-ZPass probably doesn't have E-ZPass Flex transponder, but they could easily adopt what Virginia has.
The I-77 Express Lanes in Charlotte, NC opened last week, and they've incorporated Virginia's E-ZPass Flex on that system. HOV 3+ is free in "HOV" mode using a special "NC Quick Pass E-ZPass Flex" transponder, or you can use a regular E-ZPass Flex transponder that's used here in Virginia. It's seamless, and is a nice benefit North Carolina's HO/T lanes are using the same system as in Virginia. They have more HO/T lanes planned for I-485 in Charlotte, and I-540, I-40, and I-87 in Raleigh in the future. Wish Maryland could do the same.
Not to mention, there's going to be confusion as Virginia's side will allow HOV free, and Maryland will not permit it. Two different systems, two different agencies that can't create one seamless system  :no: Watch, next they'll say I-495's impact is too much that they'll only add 1 HO/T lane in each direction instead of 2.

It would be a procedural and signing change, the roadways would work with either method.

I agree with making at least I-495 seamless with a HOT-3 system and 2 lanes each way north to I-270 Spur.

The threshold can also be changed to 2 or 4 in the future if there develops a reason for expanding or decreasing the volume of free HOV vehicles.
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1995hoo

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2019, 08:36:52 AM »

Maryland actually does offer E-ZPass Flex even though they don't have HO/T lanes. It's offered as a convenience for their customers because so many of them drive in Virginia on a somewhat regular basis. I think I read they charge some nominal fee to get the device because the transponder is more expensive than the standard one (similar to why Virginia will charge a $10 fee if you have no HOV-mode transactions for six months....which reminds me I need to use ours in HOV mode sometime soon).

Edited to add: I found an article from the Washington Post from last year about it. Guess it's not so nominal a fee, as this article says Maryland charges $16.50 for the Flex. But if you're going to use it regularly in HOV mode, that might still be worth it because it'd be easy to save more than that in toll payments.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/05/31/should-you-get-your-e-zpass-in-maryland-or-virginia/?utm_term=.071b3d88a5ff
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 10:16:11 AM by 1995hoo »
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2019, 05:54:35 PM »

Maryland E-ZPass probably doesn't have E-ZPass Flex transponder, but they could easily adopt what Virginia has.
The I-77 Express Lanes in Charlotte, NC opened last week, and they've incorporated Virginia's E-ZPass Flex on that system. HOV 3+ is free in "HOV" mode using a special "NC Quick Pass E-ZPass Flex" transponder, or you can use a regular E-ZPass Flex transponder that's used here in Virginia. It's seamless, and is a nice benefit North Carolina's HO/T lanes are using the same system as in Virginia. They have more HO/T lanes planned for I-485 in Charlotte, and I-540, I-40, and I-87 in Raleigh in the future. Wish Maryland could do the same.

Not to mention, there's going to be confusion as Virginia's side will allow HOV free, and Maryland will not permit it. Two different systems, two different agencies that can't create one seamless system  :no: Watch, next they'll say I-495's impact is too much that they'll only add 1 HO/T lane in each direction instead of 2   :banghead:

EDIT - Toll Lane, not HO/T lane, when referring to MD I-495.  :pan:
I feel a little better about the I-77 HOT lanes if NC will add them elsewhere.  It seemed a lot like they were just deciding to stick it to Charlotte, with general widenings elsewhere and HOT lanes on I-77.

I wonder how the QuickPass sticker will work with this.

Regarding Maryland, I agree they should be consistent with VA on the DC area lanes.  They can do whatever they want in Baltimore.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2019, 08:13:50 PM »

Regarding the Quick Pass sticker, their website says, quote, "All NC Quick Pass transponders can be used with the NC Quick Pass HOV mobile app to set HOV3+ status in the I-77 Express Lanes."

I'd consider the Quick Pass Flex device, seeing as how it'll work in Virginia's HO/T lanes as well as at SunPass facilities, but the separate devices we have now are working well enough for us, and Quick Pass still purports to prohibit you from moving a transponder between vehicles, which is just stupid.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2019, 09:10:06 PM »

Regarding the Quick Pass sticker, their website says, quote, "All NC Quick Pass transponders can be used with the NC Quick Pass HOV mobile app to set HOV3+ status in the I-77 Express Lanes."

I'd consider the Quick Pass Flex device, seeing as how it'll work in Virginia's HO/T lanes as well as at SunPass facilities, but the separate devices we have now are working well enough for us, and Quick Pass still purports to prohibit you from moving a transponder between vehicles, which is just stupid.

Glad I kept my NY E-ZPass when I ordered Quick Pass's Flex transponder because I do take E-ZPass with me when using rental cars.  Of course, the Florida compatibility was one reason why I went with NC instead of VA.  Guess I can just delete my car and add a rental car if I travel and need the NC pass.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2019, 09:22:16 PM »

I feel a little better about the I-77 HOT lanes if NC will add them elsewhere.  It seemed a lot like they were just deciding to stick it to Charlotte, with general widenings elsewhere and HOT lanes on I-77.

I don't see the point of having HOT lanes on belt routes such as I-485 and I-540.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2019, 11:29:44 PM »

I feel a little better about the I-77 HOT lanes if NC will add them elsewhere.  It seemed a lot like they were just deciding to stick it to Charlotte, with general widenings elsewhere and HOT lanes on I-77.

I don't see the point of having HOT lanes on belt routes such as I-485 and I-540.
I-495 isn’t a belt route? I-64 in Hampton Roads isn’t a belt route? Moot point.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2019, 11:49:40 PM »

I don't see the point of having HOT lanes on belt routes such as I-485 and I-540.
I-495 isn’t a belt route? I-64 in Hampton Roads isn’t a belt route? Moot point.

No edge cities to speak of on I-485 and I-540.

Tysons Corner is Fairfax County's central business district and a regional commercial center, and is the 12th largest CBD in the nation based on square feet of office space.

The I-495 HOT lane system connects the pre-existing managed lane systems on I-95, I-395, I-66 and VA-267, and traffic studies showed that there would be high demand in a HOT-3 system.

VA I-495 is a heavily used local commuter route in its own right with cities like Vienna, Falls Church, Fairfax and Alexandria.

The HOT lanes on I-64 connect major centers as well, such as Navy Base Norfolk and Virginia Beach, and the pre-existing managed lane systems on I-564 and I-264.

The HRBT takes on more of the role of a radial route and a cross-harbor freeway, than that of a belt route.
 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 11:51:54 PM by Beltway »
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2019, 12:10:12 AM »

I don't see the point of having HOT lanes on belt routes such as I-485 and I-540.
I-495 isn’t a belt route? I-64 in Hampton Roads isn’t a belt route? Moot point.

No edge cities to speak of on I-485 and I-540.

Tysons Corner is Fairfax County's central business district and a regional commercial center, and is the 12th largest CBD in the nation based on square feet of office space.

The I-495 HOT lane system connects the pre-existing managed lane systems on I-95, I-395, I-66 and VA-267, and traffic studies showed that there would be high demand in a HOT-3 system.

VA I-495 is a heavily used local commuter route in its own right with cities like Vienna, Falls Church, Fairfax and Alexandria.

The HOT lanes on I-64 connect major centers as well, such as Navy Base Norfolk and Virginia Beach, and the pre-existing managed lane systems on I-564 and I-264.

The HRBT takes on more of the role of a radial route and a cross-harbor freeway, than that of a belt route.
 
I-540 connects eastern suburbs of fast-growing Raleigh with the tech areas on the west. With 440 becoming more and more crowded, 540's utility keeps increasing and it's going to get crowded. 485 same thing - people live on the perimeter but there are only a few routes into the city, so 485 will fast turn into another 285 (Atlanta).

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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2019, 12:49:47 AM »

I-540 connects eastern suburbs of fast-growing Raleigh with the tech areas on the west. With 440 becoming more and more crowded, 540's utility keeps increasing and it's going to get crowded. 485 same thing - people live on the perimeter but there are only a few routes into the city, so 485 will fast turn into another 285 (Atlanta).

If needed they could widen them to 8 lanes first.  They go thru mostly semi-rural areas today.  It is hard for me to see the need for managed lanes on those routes.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2019, 07:15:47 AM »

^ When's the last time you were in Raleigh, Scott?  Have you not seen how much suburban development there is now on the outside of the Interstate portion of 540?   It is most definitely not semi-rural today.

Nevermind that, since you mention "edge cities" and Tysons, it's worth noting that the west end of I-540 is a stones throw from both the airport and RTP. 
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2019, 08:20:05 AM »

^ When's the last time you were in Raleigh, Scott?  Have you not seen how much suburban development there is now on the outside of the Interstate portion of 540?   It is most definitely not semi-rural today.

Maybe low density suburban sprawl is a better term?  Exurban sprawl?

Nevermind that, since you mention "edge cities" and Tysons, it's worth noting that the west end of I-540 is a stones throw from both the airport and RTP. 

I could have mentioned the Norfolk airport but didn't, and the size and density of Washington metro (6 million) and what is in Maryland just across the river on I-495, such as National Harbor, and the area around Bethesda and Rockville per the subject of this thread.  Obvious candidate for 2 HOT lanes each way if they can get the right-of-way.

I-540 doesn't seem to be a good candidate.
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Re: I-495 and I-270 P3 Program
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2019, 08:25:22 AM »

Quote
I-540 doesn't seem to be a good candidate.

Currently, no.  I-40 from Wade to RTP is a much better candidate.
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