Signs for Idiots

[flowmotion]

There's also the "first car gets pulled over" or "don't stick your neck out" logic which people espouse. The driver passes a bunch of cars and realizes he's in front of the 'platoon' and suddenly feels vulnerable to being cited for speeding. So he slows down to fade into the pack.

[PHLBOS]

Pennsylvania does not use passing zones. They use an innovative system called "centerline rumble strips." I have coined the term "Pennsylvania passing zone" to refer to a long straightaway with no marked passing zone, but sufficient sight distance that you can pass.

Au contraire, PA indeed does have passing zones... it's just not used on too many roads.  Hog Island Road near the Philadelphia International Airport in Tinicum Township and segments of PA 352 in Chester/Delaware Counties are the 2 nearest 2-lane passing zones from where I live.  I know that segments of US 30 in the central part of the state has them as well.

Those centerline rumble strips are usually only applied where the adjacent lane is used for opposing traffic AND in a NO PASSING zone.   

[1995hoo]

....

As for following distance - I also learned "2 seconds". As has been said, 2 seconds accounts for reaction time (which is the same at any speed), and correspondingly longer distance as speed increases. I've also heard "1 car length per 10 mph" but found myself to be a very poor judge of car lengths. I had someone once chastise me when I told them I use the 2 second rule, saying you "have to" use the 1 car length rule - frankly, that's idiotic. I'm going to use whatever rule keeps me safe. (Given that I drive in the northeast, I use a 1 second rule. 2 seconds is ideal in areas where people don't cut into spaces, like the West.)

I think it's a generational thing. Both of my parents learned the "car length" method in the 1960s. I learned the "x seconds" method in the late 1980s. People invariably argue that what they learned is "the" correct thing. It's not just generational, either. I know a fellow who lives in California whose daughter is learning to drive and she claims that the left lane is "the fast cruising lane" because that's what the California driver's manual apparently says. She actually thinks that's a national rule! I told her not to rely on that sort of thing as a universal rule and she simply couldn't fathom that state laws vary. Why this is a surprise is not clear to me when things like speed limits obviously vary significantly from state to state.

This is getting into a totally different topic, so I won't say much other than to say this sort of thing is but one example of why I think it's not a bad idea at all to require people to re-take the knowledge test every other license-renewal cycle. There are enough things that have changed over the years that it's a bad idea to assume that just because you originally passed the test you're always good to go–my favorite example is probably how to use antilock brakes properly because I know a LOT of people who have no clue (based on their comments about "the pedal started vibrating so I let go"). Most states require doctors, teachers, attorneys, and various other professionals to take continuing education courses, and they're a small subset of the population. Almost everybody drives.

(/soapbox!)

[vdeane]

Is there a place that documents all the differences between state laws?  I know in CA, for example, it's illegal to turn across a double yellow line, while out east it's expected (how you're supposed to get to homes/businesses that are on the left side of the road, I have no idea).  U turns are generally illegal in NY while I understand some places allow them.

On the 1 car length rule, my understanding is that it's not even valid today as it was designed before the era of power brakes.  At least that's what I was told in driver's ed.

[1995hoo]

Is there a place that documents all the differences between state laws?  I know in CA, for example, it's illegal to turn across a double yellow line, while out east it's expected (how you're supposed to get to homes/businesses that are on the left side of the road, I have no idea).  U turns are generally illegal in NY while I understand some places allow them.

On the 1 car length rule, my understanding is that it's not even valid today as it was designed before the era of power brakes.  At least that's what I was told in driver's ed.

Don't know about any sort of comprehensive compendium of that sort. I've seen a few things that compile some of the laws that are frequently important to motorists. A fair number of websites try to summarize speed limits and left-lane laws, for example. There's an iPhone app (don't know if it's also for Android because I have an iPhone) called "State Lines" that summarizes the following over five screens: Sales tax, gas tax, diesel tax, time zone, leash laws, motorcycle and bicycle helmet laws, default speed limits (and it is NOT always accurate on this), reckless driving threshold, emergency phone number, mobile phone and text-message bans, seatbelt laws, whether left on red and right on red arrow are allowed, a variety of RV-specific issues, ABC laws, and some miscellaneous stuff (for Virginia it mentions the smoking bans for restaurants and schools, the lack of a bottle bill, and the radar-detector ban).

The National Motorists Association used to publish a spiral-bound guide to state laws that included mention of some unusual things–for example, back in the mid-1990s Alabama law required that you stop for a school bus with the lights flashing even if the road has a median and even if the median is wide. Most states do not require you to stop if there's a median. I don't know whether the NMA still publishes that booklet since I let my membership lapse.

Thing is, traffic law is susceptible to so many little issues that you're never going to be able to find a truly comprehensive index showing all the differences.

[agentsteel53]

I know in CA, for example, it's illegal to turn across a double yellow line

this is not correct.  it is illegal to turn across an "implied median", which is two yellow lines separated by at least 24 inches of pavement.

[BamaZeus]

I recall also being taught to maintain a number of seconds between my car and the vehicle ahead, but vehicle length never factored into it. I think the rule of thumb was two seconds for speeds up to 40 mph and four seconds above 40 mph.

That was a staple of driver education in the late 1980's/early 1990's.

Problem is, in real life that's utterly impossible. Four seconds' following distance leaves such a large gap that it is impossible to maintain it because somebody else will move into that space; if you then back off to restore four seconds, the same thing happens again.

It's not impossible at all--that is how I routinely drive.  The secret is to choose a speed low enough (in my case, a few hairs below the posted limit) to make it easy to pay out additional empty distance when cars cut in front of you.  I usually find I can maintain at least a two-second following distance (and usually at least four seconds in rural areas) without too much trouble, unless traffic is really heavy or I am dealing with drivers who maneuver like jackrabbits (speed up to pass me, cut in front of me, and then tread on the brakes when they realize the traffic in front of them is going much slower than they are).

Good form is not to cut back into the driving lane after passing another vehicle unless you have given that vehicle at least a two-second following distance. I see this courtesy observed so rarely on the freeways that I always think better of drivers who observe it; but even the ones who cut back in relatively early are usually going fast enough that the minimum two-second following distance is restored within a relatively short period of time, without my having to brake or disengage cruise control.

What we learned was to not move in front of a truck until you could clearly see both of its headlights in your rear-view mirror.  That's usually enough distance to be safely in front of it.  It just kills me when I see people cut off large trucks right in front of me on the road, because one of these times, the truck isn't going to be able to slow down.

[1995hoo]

What we learned was to not move in front of a truck until you could clearly see both of its headlights in your rear-view mirror.  That's usually enough distance to be safely in front of it.  It just kills me when I see people cut off large trucks right in front of me on the road, because one of these times, the truck isn't going to be able to slow down.

I learned that rule as to all vehicles and I continue to follow it today unless I have absolutely no choice (e.g., the rare instance where I get hung out in the wrong lane and have to force my way over). I commented on it recently on another forum and someone said "you're showing your age with that one."

[kphoger]

What we learned was to not move in front of a truck until you could clearly see both of its headlights in your rear-view mirror.  That's usually enough distance to be safely in front of it.  It just kills me when I see people cut off large trucks right in front of me on the road, because one of these times, the truck isn't going to be able to slow down.

I learned that rule as to all vehicles and I continue to follow it today unless I have absolutely no choice (e.g., the rare instance where I get hung out in the wrong lane and have to force my way over). I commented on it recently on another forum and someone said "you're showing your age with that one."

I'm only 31, and I learned that one.

[thenetwork]

Photos I took of the setup along US 322 east of State College last month:

The first thing I thought of when I saw this set-up is if you are in an area where there are a lot of drivers whose custom is to always drive 5-10 miles below the speed limit.  Speed is posted at 45, Mr. Florida Snowbird is driving it at 35 MPH.  Multiply that by 2 or more cars in succession that obey the sign to the tee and now you have an unusual traffic jam situation, since it will be more difficult to pass the Sunday Drivers, and if you do try to "leapfrog" around the blue-hairs, it's going to take longer because they will "re-adjust" to keep the "minimum" distance.

Even worse if one of these drivers thinks they must stay two dots behind a farm tractor doing 20, unless they risk getting a ticket!  (Don't laugh, these people are out there!!!) 

[agentsteel53]

I must really be craning my neck a lot, because if I can just start to see a truck's headlights as I plan to get in front of him, I feel like I am cutting him off badly.  I usually go until I can see the headlights, grille, and even some of the windshield.  (for a standard-looking rig)

that said, I do indeed crane my neck a lot while driving. 

[Alps]

Pennsylvania does not use passing zones. They use an innovative system called "centerline rumble strips." I have coined the term "Pennsylvania passing zone" to refer to a long straightaway with no marked passing zone, but sufficient sight distance that you can pass.

Au contraire, PA indeed does have passing zones... it's just not used on too many roads.  Hog Island Road near the Philadelphia International Airport in Tinicum Township and segments of PA 352 in Chester/Delaware Counties are the 2 nearest 2-lane passing zones from where I live.  I know that segments of US 30 in the central part of the state has them as well.

Those centerline rumble strips are usually only applied where the adjacent lane is used for opposing traffic AND in a NO PASSING zone.   

It was my attempt at humor - yes there are a few passing zones but FAR too few. When in PA, I use any place where I have sight distance to pass, regardless of striping. Also, trust me on this, they rumble strip right through passing zones too.

[Ian]

Hog Island Road near the Philadelphia International Airport in Tinicum Township and segments of PA 352 in Chester/Delaware Counties are the 2 nearest 2-lane passing zones from where I live.  I know that segments of US 30 in the central part of the state has them as well

The ones you talk about on PA 352 are now double yellow lined. Steve is unfortunately right in what he says about PennDOT's passing zones. In the flattest, most straightest sections of road where any other state would put a passing zone, PennDOT double yellow lines it. *sigh*

[PHLBOS]

 

In the flattest, most straightest sections of road where any other state would put a passing zone, PennDOT double yellow lines it. *sigh*

Sounds a bit like what the MassDPW did with the 3-lane stretch of MA 114 through Middleton during the 1980s; replace the center passing lane w/a center left-turn lane even though there were very few intersecting streets along that stretch at the time.  Today, the stretch has since been more developed.

[SidS1045]

Is there a place that documents all the differences between state laws?

You betcha...the AAA/CAA Digest of Motor Laws, formerly published annually as a paperback book.

http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/

[vdeane]

I was taught the "see both headlights in the mirror before you finish passing all vehicles" too and I'm just 21.  Is it because my parents are baby boomers and not generation X?

[pianocello]

I'm pretty sure I was taught the both headlights rule in driver's ed last summer.

My favorite "captain obvious" sign: KEEP OFF MEDIAN.

[xcellntbuy]

I'm pretty sure I was taught the both headlights rule in driver's ed last summer.

My favorite "captain obvious" sign: KEEP OFF MEDIAN.

Also important in south Florida where passing on the left, speeding-up through deceleration lanes and cut-back-in-front of you or impatience are commonplace.

[Compulov]

I was taught the "see both headlights in the mirror before you finish passing all vehicles" too and I'm just 21.  Is it because my parents are baby boomers and not generation X?

Might be... I'm 33, and I recall my parents telling me that one.

My favorite "captain obvious" sign: KEEP OFF MEDIAN.

A similar sign, "KEEP OFF SHOULDER" has annoyed me whenever I've seen it. Usually it's around curves, though, so maybe they're going for people too lazy to, you know, keep their cars between the lines.

[Alps]

I was taught the "see both headlights in the mirror before you finish passing all vehicles" too and I'm just 21.  Is it because my parents are baby boomers and not generation X?

Might be... I'm 33, and I recall my parents telling me that one.

My favorite "captain obvious" sign: KEEP OFF MEDIAN.

A similar sign, "KEEP OFF SHOULDER" has annoyed me whenever I've seen it. Usually it's around curves, though, so maybe they're going for people too lazy to, you know, keep their cars between the lines.

Usually I see that one approaching a traffic light. Then again, I'm in the Northeast where it's de rigueur to use the shoulder for right turns - and sometimes for opportunistic bypassing of a queue or a slow vehicle at a red light.

[1995hoo]

I've seen "DO NOT DRIVE ON SHOULDER" in a number of places......and in most of the places where I see it, it's routinely ignored by a lot of people when traffic is heavy (perhaps no surprise there, since presumably the sign was put up because of people driving on the shoulder, right?).

[vtk]

A similar sign, "KEEP OFF SHOULDER" has annoyed me whenever I've seen it. Usually it's around curves, though, so maybe they're going for people too lazy to, you know, keep their cars between the lines.

Usually I see that one approaching a traffic light. Then again, I'm in the Northeast where it's de rigueur to use the shoulder for right turns - and sometimes for opportunistic bypassing of a queue or a slow vehicle at a red light.

Reminds me of the time I was on surface streets in Danbury, CT, bumbling around in search of Old US 6 to get back to I-84*.  I came to a red light wanting to turn right, and I wasn't all the way over to the curb because to me that looked like a shoulder or "parking lane".  I sat there for several seconds, trying to remember if right turns on red are illegal in that state, and a local driver blew around me on the right.  (I don't think he even stopped at the light before making his right turn.)  Mom was like, "what is that guy doing?" and I said, "he probably doesn't want to wait behind the idiot driver from Ohio."  Satisfied the maneuver was legal in Connecticut, I made my right turn on red.

*Whole story: we'd gotten off the Interstate due to a traffic jam.  I didn't have a local map, but I trusted (perhaps too much for New England) my instinct and sense of direction.  Though the route we wound up taking through Danbury was anything but direct, when we got back on the highway, we found ourselves next to a black limo we were pretty sure we'd seen just before exiting.

[empirestate]

I've seen "DO NOT DRIVE ON SHOULDER" in a number of places......and in most of the places where I see it, it's routinely ignored by a lot of people when traffic is heavy (perhaps no surprise there, since presumably the sign was put up because of people driving on the shoulder, right?).

Well, New York puts up State Law-series signs reminding us that such is illegal, in areas where violations are common, usually as a shortcut to making right turns. In one such area, I noticed so many county sheriff vehicles violating the law that I wrote them a letter to remind them about setting a good example. It was promptly ignored. (It was also ignored on a longer timeframe.)

[Ned Weasel]

I know this is a departure from the more recent posts on this thread, but how's this for a sign for idiots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kta_042_2011.jpg

It's at the southernmost of four exits for Wichita on I-35/The Kansas Turnpike.  My best guess is that some people thought it was the only exit for Wichita.  You might be able to guess what it looked like before someone decided to vandalize a perfectly fine sign assembly.  The left sign was a standard pull-through sign with two down arrows and only one control city, and the right sign didn't have the awkwardly placed "S."  I would have thought a standard "Wichita Next 4 Exits" sign in advance of this exit would suffice.  Also note the awkwardly placed exit speed warning tab.  Maybe someday the Turnpike will replace this monstrosity, thus putting it out of its misery.

Edit: And here's what it used to look like, so you don't have to guess: http://www.interstate-guide.com/images135/i-135_ks_st_09.jpg

[Scott5114]

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