Not sure if this is in the right forum, but since I'm discussing some of the rules of the road, I though it would fit in here. If not, please moderators move to appropriate forum.
I honestly believe that there need to be some modification for the rules regarding when a school bus must display their flashing red lights. In most states, you must stop if a school bus flashes their red lights and you cannot proceed until the lights stop flashing. This is true regardless of whether the school bus is on your side of the street or on the other side of the street, unless you are on a divided highway.
For a regular neighborhood stop, this is a very appropriate rule. Children will entering or leaving the bus may come from either side of the street and will typically cross at least half the street to get to the bus. This also makes routing easier, buses will only have to go down the street in one direction to serve both sides of the street.
However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child. In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service. What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house. I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus. And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.
So I would prefer that if a school bus were stopping at a special stop for one child only, the school bus driver should not flash lights until the child is out of his house. The school bus driver should not flash their lights, unless the child would need to step into the street to enter/exit the bus. When discharging a full bus load of children at the destination, the bus should pull over on the right side and discharge all passengers without flashing the red lights.
Basically, the red lights should only flash when children need to step into the path of traffic to enter/exit the bus. If the bus pulls over to the sidewalk on the correct side of the street, no lights should flash.
As a general matter I understand where you're coming from and I agree it can be damn annoying. On the other hand, I also know part of the reason for it has to do with little kids' irrational behavior. One reason school buses have largely gone to the flat-front design, instead of the design with the hood many of us grew up with, and also one reason why they now have that metal thing that swings out from the front bumper, is because of little kids who get off the bus on a windy day and some stupid item they're carrying gets blown out of their hand. Little kids instinctively run after the item. There have been incidents over the years of kids getting seriously injured when they ran in front of school buses unbeknownst to the driver, who started to move and then struck the kid. As adults, we all know whatever crappy piece of "artwork" or whatever it is isn't that important, but little kids don't think that way. You could suggest some kind of principle where you stop for elementary school buses but not for other ones, but practically speaking that doesn't work because it's unreasonable to expect the other drivers to know what school a bus serves (I never have any idea unless I see the kids getting on or off).
On the whole, then, I certainly understand using the red lights whenever kids are getting on or off the bus, even if it's a full load or a large load. I do think they ought to pull off into the service road if possible so that traffic on the main street can continue unimpeded. I also agree with you about stopping and waiting in front of the handicapped kid's house. If the kid hasn't exited the house, it's probably unreasonable to put on the flashers while the bus is waiting for him.
I got annoyed at a school bus driver who serves our neighborhood because when she was running ahead of schedule, she stopped in the right-turn lane that leads to our neighborhood and sat there with her turn blinker on. First, she shouldn't have stopped in the turn lane. She should have gone around the corner and stopped along the curb a safe distance away from the intersection. Second, if she wanted to stop to wait so the bus didn't come early, she should have used her hazard flashers, not her turn signal. I couldn't see around her and I pulled in behind her to turn right and got stuck there trying to get around her when she refused to move after I started honking (this when I could tell the way was clear because the other lanes were moving, which indicated a green light). Unfortunately I didn't get the bus number or I would have filed a complaint.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoMekyvBkv0
In Colorado, on a 4-lane road with a painted median drivers traveling in the opposite direction are not required to stop (1:43). Is this common in other states? I have never heard of this before.
Quote from: mrsman on February 28, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child. In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service. What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house. I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus. And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.
In that amount of time I would have gotten out of my car and asked the driver of the bus to turn her lights off until she was actually physically boarding the child. Leaving your lights on without just cause is likely illegal. Most states have provisions in their MV statues that say that school busses do not have the authority to control traffic. If this was something that happened consistently on one's morning commute, I would call the bus company and/or the police about it, but don't ever pass a school bus with flashing lights because while the law specifies when the lights are to be on, it doesn't excuse motorists from ever disregarding them.
All the traffic laws regarding school busses and school zones are ridiculously unfair to drivers. The system is BS!
New York requires everyone to stop, even on a multilane highway. Having lived on a very busy section of US 20, I'm damn glad New York law requires stopping in both directions. It might be annoying, but over 99% of the time, it isn't for very long and too many children get hit by people who pass stopped buses even with the laws that exist.
Quote from: mrsman on February 28, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child. In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service. What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house. I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus. And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.
I was gone for 5 minutes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr5ORr7AYCg
Washington State seems to have pretty fair school bus laws:
1) As long as there's a center left turn lane, opposing traffic need not stop (students are not allowed to cross more than two lanes)
2) Buses may pull off the road to collect children from the same side of the road; in this case, only the hazards are required.
My grandfather is a school bus driver. He tells me that when he collects special-needs students, he almost always pulls over and parks, rarely (if ever) activating the stop-signals.
Washington RCW 46.61.370 (http://goo.gl/tTa9w1)
Quote from: tradephoric on February 28, 2016, 09:54:26 PM
In Colorado, on a 4-lane road with a painted median drivers traveling in the opposite direction are not required to stop (1:43). Is this common in other states? I have never heard of this before.
Definitely the exception, but it is also the case in California. Ironic somewhat with all of the extra regulations we like having.
I did find that Arizona has quite a nice way document depicting the school bus situations:
http://www.azgohs.gov/programs/School%20Bus%20Awareness%20Current%20Arizona%20Law.pdf
Quote from: cl94 on February 29, 2016, 12:27:47 AM
New York requires everyone to stop, even on a multilane highway. Having lived on a very busy section of US 20, I'm damn glad New York law requires stopping in both directions. It might be annoying, but over 99% of the time, it isn't for very long and too many children get hit by people who pass stopped buses even with the laws that exist.
Most states require vehicles to stop when there's only a yellow line separating the flow of traffic. NY law requires all vehicles to stop, even on divided highways with medians and barriers. How many kids have gotten hit after climbing over a guardrail or jersey barrier?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 29, 2016, 07:08:56 AM
Quote from: cl94 on February 29, 2016, 12:27:47 AM
New York requires everyone to stop, even on a multilane highway. Having lived on a very busy section of US 20, I'm damn glad New York law requires stopping in both directions. It might be annoying, but over 99% of the time, it isn't for very long and too many children get hit by people who pass stopped buses even with the laws that exist.
Most states require vehicles to stop when there's only a yellow line separating the flow of traffic. NY law requires all vehicles to stop, even on divided highways with medians and barriers. How many kids have gotten hit after climbing over a guardrail or jersey barrier?
This is what I'm thinking. On Central Ave in Albany/Colonie, which is four lanes with a suicide lane, school districts aren't stupid enough to have school buses stop on the other side of the street from the kids' residences. It's always the same side of the street (i.e., kids aren't running across five lanes of traffic!).
At least with how the school bus lines are run here, having opposite traffic stop on Central and similar streets is unnecessary (but, required by law).
The only issue I have with school buses are that around here there are many stops on good two lane roads with a 55 SL. The closest I was ever to a major accident was I rounded a curve and there was a stopped school bus. in the opposite direction. I stopped, and heard the screech of a large truck behind me who was not going to. The bus driver frantically waved me and the truck to go on, which we did, thus "running" the red light. Really buses should have organized pull offs and pick up kids there, or on side roads, and not on roads with that SL.
My main school issue is the rediculious school zone. Here it is 15 SL. But 95% of schools have ZERO kids that walk to school and the buses unload completly on campus with no interaction with the road at all. There is no need for any SL reduction. And the cops turn it into a random tax zone. Very dangerous and unfair.
Per the OP's situation, I've seen this as well...luckily not on a route I travel regularly though so it's rare I'm stopped by a school bus.
Below are 2 paragraphs of NJ's law pertaining to such a situation....
Quote
39:4-128.1 School buses stopped for children, certain disabled persons, duty of motorists, bus driver; violations, penalties.
...On highways having dual or multiple roadways separated by safety islands or physical traffic separation installations, the driver of a vehicle overtaking a school bus, which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any child or any person who has a developmental disability, shall stop such vehicle not less than 25 feet from such school bus and keep such vehicle stationary until such child or person who has a developmental disability has entered said bus or has alighted and reached the side of the highway and until a flashing red light is no longer exhibited by the bus.
...Whenever a school bus is parked at the curb for the purpose of receiving or discharging a person who has a developmental disability on the same side of the street as that on which the bus is parked, drivers of vehicles shall be permitted to pass the bus without stopping, but at a speed not in excess of 10 miles per hour....
So, if you read this, does anyone find the law in contradiction with itself? One paragraph says you must stop; the other paragraph says you don't have to stop. The only thing I can determine is in the 2nd paragraph, stopping at the curb (ie: on the shoulder) permits one to pass the bus; in the 1st paragraph it refers to stopping in the lane of travel. And how does one know the bus has stopped for a child with disabilities anyway, until you see the child?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 29, 2016, 10:16:16 AM
Per the OP's situation, I've seen this as well...luckily not on a route I travel regularly though so it's rare I'm stopped by a school bus.
Below are 2 paragraphs of NJ's law pertaining to such a situation....
Quote
39:4-128.1 School buses stopped for children, certain disabled persons, duty of motorists, bus driver; violations, penalties.
...On highways having dual or multiple roadways separated by safety islands or physical traffic separation installations, the driver of a vehicle overtaking a school bus, which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any child or any person who has a developmental disability, shall stop such vehicle not less than 25 feet from such school bus and keep such vehicle stationary until such child or person who has a developmental disability has entered said bus or has alighted and reached the side of the highway and until a flashing red light is no longer exhibited by the bus.
...Whenever a school bus is parked at the curb for the purpose of receiving or discharging a person who has a developmental disability on the same side of the street as that on which the bus is parked, drivers of vehicles shall be permitted to pass the bus without stopping, but at a speed not in excess of 10 miles per hour....
So, if you read this, does anyone find the law in contradiction with itself? One paragraph says you must stop; the other paragraph says you don't have to stop. The only thing I can determine is in the 2nd paragraph, stopping at the curb (ie: on the shoulder) permits one to pass the bus; in the 1st paragraph it refers to stopping in the lane of travel. And how does one know the bus has stopped for a child with disabilities anyway, until you see the child?
NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 29, 2016, 10:27:25 AM
NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.
Not quite. Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.
There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.
Quote
39:4-128.4. Approaching or overtaking stopped frozen dessert truck; stopping
a. The driver of a vehicle approaching or overtaking from either direction a frozen dessert truck stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching the truck when the flashing red lights and stop signal arm described in section 3 are in use. After stopping, a driver may proceed past such truck at a reasonable and prudent speed, not exceeding 15 miles per hour, and shall yield the right of way to any pedestrian who crosses the roadway to or from the frozen dessert truck.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 29, 2016, 10:27:25 AM
NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.
My daughter would like for us to always stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 29, 2016, 10:30:50 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 29, 2016, 10:27:25 AM
NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.
Not quite. Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.
There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.
Quote
39:4-128.4. Approaching or overtaking stopped frozen dessert truck; stopping
a. The driver of a vehicle approaching or overtaking from either direction a frozen dessert truck stopped on the highway shall stop before reaching the truck when the flashing red lights and stop signal arm described in section 3 are in use. After stopping, a driver may proceed past such truck at a reasonable and prudent speed, not exceeding 15 miles per hour, and shall yield the right of way to any pedestrian who crosses the roadway to or from the frozen dessert truck.
I agree. Kids go crazy when they see/hear an ice cream truck and you never know if one will dart into the road.
And as far as stopping the other direction, a kid that drops something will run after it instinctively, even if it blows to the far side of the road. There have been incidents caused by these seemingly-trivial things.
Quote from: mrsman on February 28, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child. In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service. What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house. I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus. And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.
This happens here in Rochester NY a lot. The school bus will stay in the lane while it is waiting, but will flash it's YELLOW lights, which means you can pass. When the child comes out of the front door, then the RED lights will flash. To me, that is how it should be done everywhere.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 29, 2016, 10:16:16 AM
Per the OP's situation, I've seen this as well...luckily not on a route I travel regularly though so it's rare I'm stopped by a school bus.
Below are 2 paragraphs of NJ's law pertaining to such a situation....
Quote
39:4-128.1 School buses stopped for children, certain disabled persons, duty of motorists, bus driver; violations, penalties.
...On highways having dual or multiple roadways separated by safety islands or physical traffic separation installations, the driver of a vehicle overtaking a school bus, which has stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging any child or any person who has a developmental disability, shall stop such vehicle not less than 25 feet from such school bus and keep such vehicle stationary until such child or person who has a developmental disability has entered said bus or has alighted and reached the side of the highway and until a flashing red light is no longer exhibited by the bus.
...Whenever a school bus is parked at the curb for the purpose of receiving or discharging a person who has a developmental disability on the same side of the street as that on which the bus is parked, drivers of vehicles shall be permitted to pass the bus without stopping, but at a speed not in excess of 10 miles per hour....
So, if you read this, does anyone find the law in contradiction with itself? One paragraph says you must stop; the other paragraph says you don't have to stop. The only thing I can determine is in the 2nd paragraph, stopping at the curb (ie: on the shoulder) permits one to pass the bus; in the 1st paragraph it refers to stopping in the lane of travel. And how does one know the bus has stopped for a child with disabilities anyway, until you see the child?
the first paragraph indicates a
stopped bus, the second a
parked bus. as for your other question... your guess is as good as mine.
Since this is in "Traffic Control," here is a sign I've only ever seen posted in Illinois. It makes things a little bit clearer for drivers here. This one is posted on Exchange Street near Crete IL, at the Indiana border so that the Hoosiers crossing over can get it through their heads :) Note that there are no exceptions for 4-way roads of any sort.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1633/25383451136_e282270ca4.jpg)
It is mentioned on page 33 of the Illinois MUTCD supplement:
http://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Transportation-System/Manuals-Guides-&-Handbooks/Highways/Operations/2009%20ILMUTCD%20-%202014%20update.pdf
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
I think it's so that when the cops pull over the out-of-staters (their main prey), the driver can't claim ignorance when he/she says "I didn't know you had to stop when there's a school bus!"
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 29, 2016, 10:30:50 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 29, 2016, 10:27:25 AM
NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.
Not quite. Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.
There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.
I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on March 01, 2016, 08:06:19 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 28, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
However, I was recently stopped for a very long time behind a school bus serving a handicapped child. In my local district, regular students have to walk a few blocks to a bus stop, but handicapped children get door to door service. What irritated me is that for this particular stop, the bus driver stopped in front of the house and put on the flashing red lights, even before the child got out of his house. I was waiting for 5 minutes for the child to even come out of the house and then another few minutes to make sure the child was secured in the bus. And the child never even had to cross the street once, because the driver stopped on the right side of the road.
This happens here in Rochester NY a lot. The school bus will stay in the lane while it is waiting, but will flash it's YELLOW lights, which means you can pass. When the child comes out of the front door, then the RED lights will flash. To me, that is how it should be done everywhere.
There's a short bus that does similar near my house. It'll stop at the residence to pick up the kid & wait with no lights, yellow or red, until the front door opens. Then it goes to yellow until the student is somewhat close to the bus, when the lights will go to red with the stop sign out.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 01, 2016, 10:13:09 AM
Since this is in "Traffic Control," here is a sign I've only ever seen posted in Illinois. It makes things a little bit clearer for drivers here. This one is posted on Exchange Street near Crete IL, at the Indiana border so that the Hoosiers crossing over can get it through their heads :) Note that there are no exceptions for 4-way roads of any sort.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1633/25383451136_e282270ca4.jpg)
It is mentioned on page 33 of the Illinois MUTCD supplement:
http://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Transportation-System/Manuals-Guides-&-Handbooks/Highways/Operations/2009%20ILMUTCD%20-%202014%20update.pdf
Here's what Illinois law has to say on it, from the Rules of the Road (http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/dsd_a112.pdf):
Quote
School Buses
You must stop before meeting or overtaking (passing) a school bus loading or unloading passengers on a two-lane road way. A warning will be given by the school bus at least 100 feet (200 feet in rural areas) in advance of a stop. The bus driver will flash amber and red lights on the front and rear of the bus. The stop signal arm will be extended after the school bus has come to a complete stop. You must then come to a complete stop. You must remain stopped until the stop signal arm is no longer extended and the flashing lights are turned off or the driver signals you to pass.
On a four-lane roadway where a bus is stopped in the opposite direction from which you are traveling, you are not required to stop your vehicle but you should drive with caution.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 01, 2016, 10:13:09 AM
Since this is in "Traffic Control," here is a sign I've only ever seen posted in Illinois. It makes things a little bit clearer for drivers here. This one is posted on Exchange Street near Crete IL, at the Indiana border so that the Hoosiers crossing over can get it through their heads :) Note that there are no exceptions for 4-way roads of any sort.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1633/25383451136_e282270ca4.jpg)
It is mentioned on page 33 of the Illinois MUTCD supplement:
http://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/Transportation-System/Manuals-Guides-&-Handbooks/Highways/Operations/2009%20ILMUTCD%20-%202014%20update.pdf
Here's PennDOT's version of that sign...
https://goo.gl/maps/BWtWC3J1dYL2
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy. Many drivers are probably going faster.
Quote from: kkt on March 01, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy. Many drivers are probably going faster.
Governors on school busses are annoying. They make merging more difficult and hazardous. I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 01, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 01, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy. Many drivers are probably going faster.
The buses in my district were governed at 55. Quite annoying when field trips took us on the Thruway or up to Niagara Falls.
Governors on school busses are annoying. They make merging more difficult and hazardous. I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 01, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
Governors on school busses are annoying. They make merging more difficult and hazardous. I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.
Agreed, it's terrible. The act of making school buses go too slow on high-speed highways actually endangers the kids. The whole school bus becomes an obstacle that the other drivers have to dodge. It encourages collisions. Every time I hear things like "speed kills" I'm like :banghead:
Some eye for nuance, PLEASE.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 01, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 01, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy. Many drivers are probably going faster.
Governors on school busses are annoying. They make merging more difficult and hazardous. I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.
At least the school buses I've seen are moving along at highway speeds on highways. Heck, I've even encountered them going above the speed limit. Where are we finding buses that have governors putting them well below the speed limit? And remember...the bus driver driving slow is not the same thing as a governor forcing the driver to drive slow.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 01, 2016, 02:22:18 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 01, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 01, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy. Many drivers are probably going faster.
Governors on school busses are annoying. They make merging more difficult and hazardous. I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.
At least the school buses I've seen are moving along at highway speeds on highways. Heck, I've even encountered them going above the speed limit. Where are we finding buses that have governors putting them well below the speed limit? And remember...the bus driver driving slow is not the same thing as a governor forcing the driver to drive slow.
Quite a few New York districts do and I have confirmed it with the bus garages. From what I can gather, there are actually some laws in place here requiring all or most of the buses in a district to be governed at 55, with exceptions for buses that often travel on freeways.
Quote from: cl94 on March 01, 2016, 02:47:36 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 01, 2016, 02:22:18 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 01, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 01, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy. Many drivers are probably going faster.
Governors on school busses are annoying. They make merging more difficult and hazardous. I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.
At least the school buses I've seen are moving along at highway speeds on highways. Heck, I've even encountered them going above the speed limit. Where are we finding buses that have governors putting them well below the speed limit? And remember...the bus driver driving slow is not the same thing as a governor forcing the driver to drive slow.
Quite a few New York districts do and I have confirmed it with the bus garages. From what I can gather, there are actually some laws in place here requiring all or most of the buses in a district to be governed at 55, with exceptions for buses that often travel on freeways.
So we're talking 10 mph below the max limit where most NY buses will be travelling, not 15. It would be a concern if the buses had to travel on, say, I-80 in PA going to an event. But unlike what many people think, vehicles do travel 10 mph below the limit on highways all the time. The biggest problem is when they aren't in the proper lane, not their speed.
Just look at how much havoc a slow driver can cause. Everyone is driving safely along at 195 mph and then BAMM!.... some slow idiot tries to merge up into traffic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhXmnLlOQZQ
When I was a kid, school buses in Virginia had hard governors limiting them to 45 mph, even when I was in high school and the Interstates had a 65-mph speed limit for cars (but 55 for trucks and buses back then). They later, after the split speed limit was scrapped, changed it to allow school buses to go 55 on highways where the speed limit was 65 (and now 70). I always thought the 45-mph provision was one of the most asinine laws I'd ever heard of. Some school bus drivers actively avoided using the Interstate because they said it felt unsafe to drive that slowly.
Maybe if they are older than a certain age, but everyone acts completely different on a road test versus how they normally act. What good is seeing if people remember how to parallel park (something I and others can do much easier thanks to backup cameras), how to yield, following the speed limit (come on, everyone ignores this outside of a road test), and so forth? You can't test someone's skill by a road test. You can only test if they are capable of performing easy tasks in a controlled environment.
I would be fine with a retest every 10 years. While most people will do things just to please the instructor, hopefully they will do enough things wrong not even thinking about it. Stuff like stopping past a stop line and in the crosswalk, or instantly moving to the center lane of a highway are so commonplace people don't think about it, but it's technically illegal behavior.
It doesn't help matters when one day I saw a student driver driving the speed limit...in one of the middle lanes of a 4 lane highway getting passed on both sides. When the driving instructor isn't telling the kid to keep right, the kid's going to maintain that bad behavior for his entire life.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 02, 2016, 09:41:00 AM
I would be fine with a retest every 10 years. While most people will do things just to please the instructor, hopefully they will do enough things wrong not even thinking about it. Stuff like stopping past a stop line and in the crosswalk, or instantly moving to the center lane of a highway are so commonplace people don't think about it, but it's technically illegal behavior.
It doesn't help matters when one day I saw a student driver driving the speed limit...in one of the middle lanes of a 4 lane highway getting passed on both sides. When the driving instructor isn't telling the kid to keep right, the kid's going to maintain that bad behavior for his entire life.
A 10 year retest would be great. Get the lazy drivers off the road, as well as the old people who shouldn't be driving. There would be much less road rage and the roads would be safer. Lazy drivers and old people going extremely slow scare me more than young drivers.
The probem with driver testing is that it is just some silly thing, mostly parallel parking, that does not test real driver skills. Really, the best thing to do with people is a SERIOUS vision test and a SERIOUS test of reflexes, which are the things that decline with age.
As to any discussion of "speeding", everyone must remember that every SL increase has led to a traffic mortality and morbidity. Since our SLs are still way too low, being judgemental about those who wisely choose to drive safe and fast is silly.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 02, 2016, 11:49:06 AM
The probem with driver testing is that it is just some silly thing, mostly parallel parking, that does not test real driver skills. Really, the best thing to do with people is a SERIOUS vision test and a SERIOUS test of reflexes, which are the things that decline with age.
Agree about the uselessness of parallel parking tests. I'm glad I can parallel park and think it's a useful skill, but if someone is bad at it, it's not a safety issue. It's between them and the paint on their hubcaps.
Quote
As to any discussion of "speeding", everyone must remember that every SL increase has led to a traffic mortality and morbidity. Since our SLs are still way too low, being judgemental about those who wisely choose to drive safe and fast is silly.
I am not following you here. Are you missing a key word somewhere?
Quote from: Super Mateo on March 01, 2016, 11:42:02 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 29, 2016, 10:30:50 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on February 29, 2016, 10:27:25 AM
NJ requires motorists to stop for ice cream trucks when they're conducting business, so this doesn't surprise me.
Not quite. Yes, you must stop when approaching the truck, but then you may proceed past the truck.
There is a legit safety concern here as kids may run across the street, not paying attention to the traffic.
I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.
Half of them are now gourmet bacon sorbet trucks geared at adults. You lost this fight before you picked it.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 02, 2016, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: Super Mateo on March 01, 2016, 11:42:02 AM
I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.
Half of them are now gourmet bacon sorbet trucks geared at adults. You lost this fight before you picked it.
Good god. Bacon sorbet? That's a thing? And ice cream trucks for adults? ...Are these real?
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 02, 2016, 08:16:54 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 02, 2016, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: Super Mateo on March 01, 2016, 11:42:02 AM
I would much rather have them just ban the ice cream trucks.
Half of them are now gourmet bacon sorbet trucks geared at adults. You lost this fight before you picked it.
Good god. Bacon sorbet? That's a thing? And ice cream trucks for adults? ...Are these real?
There are these things called "foodies," that walk among humans and only show their true selves at feeding time.
If you only knew the extent of the food trucks. You can make something twice as ridiculous and sell it for twice as much if it's on a truck.
Ignoring the political nonsense.... If there were to be a driver retest system, I think rather than focusing on things like parallel parking, turning into the curb lane, etc., it might be more useful to focus on knowledge, especially things that have changed over the years. My favorite example of that is how to use antilock brakes properly. There are a lot of people who learned to drive prior to widespread availability of ABS and who will release the pedal when it starts vibrating (of course, that's exactly the wrong thing to do). There are plenty of other things like that that people won't necessarily ever learn under the "get your license once and never get retested" system. (I set aside trivialities like how apparently now they say to hold the steering wheel at 8 and 4. Seems to me you hold it in the place that's most comfortable for how your steering wheel is designed.)
Wait, TWO hands?
The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.
Quote from: bzakharin on March 03, 2016, 12:05:31 PM
The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.
The best way is to ensure clear sightlines, which is something the various transportation departments and municipalities should control by monitoring their right-of-ways along the street.
Outside of that, stopping twice is the legal way of doing it, even if it is a PITA.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 03, 2016, 12:16:31 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 03, 2016, 12:05:31 PM
The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.
The best way is to ensure clear sightlines, which is something the various transportation departments and municipalities should control by monitoring their right-of-ways along the street.
Outside of that, stopping twice is the legal way of doing it, even if it is a PITA.
So how do you clear sightlines in a residential suburban neighborhood like this?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9236731,-74.9913354,3a,75y,175.5h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP1SfLSCtBVHu3UNSS5bPqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Chop down all the trees? I doubt the residents would approve.
Quote from: bzakharin on March 03, 2016, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 03, 2016, 12:16:31 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on March 03, 2016, 12:05:31 PM
The reason people don't stop at the stop line (at stop signs) is that it's useless. You can't actually see what's going on on the road that has priority until you're much closer to it. The problem, of course, is crosswalks. To see what's going on on the road, you almost always have to block the crosswalk. This is true even if you already stopped at the stop line, since you have to stop again. I don't know how to solve this problem, though.
The best way is to ensure clear sightlines, which is something the various transportation departments and municipalities should control by monitoring their right-of-ways along the street.
Outside of that, stopping twice is the legal way of doing it, even if it is a PITA.
So how do you clear sightlines in a residential suburban neighborhood like this?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9236731,-74.9913354,3a,75y,175.5h,80.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP1SfLSCtBVHu3UNSS5bPqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
Chop down all the trees? I doubt the residents would approve.
You don't. Which is why you should stop twice.
It wouldn't be so bad, except the neighbor put those flowers/shrubs/fence on the corner there. Trees between the sidewalk and road look nice as well, but in the long run they cause issues with heaved sidewalks, curbing, roads, power lines, underground utilities, etc. And that's all in addition to sight lines. Every time someone backs out of their driveway, those trees block views. I'm not saying get rid of trees...I'm saying more thought was needed on where they should've been planted.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 03, 2016, 12:58:59 PM
You don't. Which is why you should stop twice.
I usually just roll up onto the crosswalk, presuming there's no camera. But stopping on the crosswalk is illegal in some parts of the country. So, in places, you are legally only permitted to stop once.
I use 9 and 3. Keeps my hands at the radio controls and cruise control and my steering wheel is designed to encourage that position. If using one hand, it's always at 9.
Quote from: cl94 on March 03, 2016, 02:24:15 PM
I use 9 and 3. Keeps my hands at the radio controls and cruise control and my steering wheel is designed to encourage that position. If using one hand, it's always at 9.
Yep - my Civic wheel feels like it was made for 9 and 3, and that is the way I was taught. If I one hand it its mostly on the 9, or slightly lower.
Quote from: Zeffy on March 03, 2016, 03:10:19 PM
Quote from: cl94 on March 03, 2016, 02:24:15 PM
I use 9 and 3. Keeps my hands at the radio controls and cruise control and my steering wheel is designed to encourage that position. If using one hand, it's always at 9.
Yep - my Civic wheel feels like it was made for 9 and 3, and that is the way I was taught. If I one hand it its mostly on the 9, or slightly lower.
That is what I drive. I drove a Corolla for most of the summer for my job and it was the same way. Seems to be a Honda and Toyota standard.
Who remembers practicing with just the left hand on the steering wheel? So when the girl slides over on the bench seat, you can put your right arm around her.
Quote from: GaryV on March 03, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
Who remembers practicing with just the left hand on the steering wheel? So when the girl slides over on the bench seat, you can put your right arm around her.
I remember practicing with just my left hand, but that's only because I learned to drive on a stick.
Quote from: cl94 on March 03, 2016, 04:05:37 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 03, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
Who remembers practicing with just the left hand on the steering wheel? So when the girl slides over on the bench seat, you can put your right arm around her.
I remember practicing with just my left hand, but that's only because I learned to drive on a stick.
Likewise, but I tend to drive left handed anyway.
I learned 10/2 at school, but was then informed that the preference was now 9/3. I tend to drive at 10/horn/gear lever when necessary, since I drive a stick (I had to unlearn resting my hand on the gear lever).
Quote from: GaryV on March 03, 2016, 04:03:51 PM
Who remembers practicing with just the left hand on the steering wheel? So when the girl slides over on the bench seat, you can put your right arm around her.
In driver training, one of the exercises was driving with just our right hand, then with just our left, and seeing which made it easier to steer. (In my case, left.) Unfortunately, no girl was involved...
It's a required skill for roadgeeks in any case, because while there might not be a girl, there will be a camera ;)
The cars in which I learned to drive didn't have bench seats, but I did most of my learning on a 5-speed, so driving with just my left hand on the wheel has always been natural. (My first car did have a split bench seat, but with the four on the floor nobody was gonna sit in the front middle anyway.)
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
North Carolina G.S. 20-218(b) would be why, to wit:
Quote(b) Speed Limits. - It is unlawful to drive a school bus occupied by one or more child passengers over the highways or public vehicular areas of the State at a greater rate of speed than 45 miles per hour. It is unlawful to drive a school activity bus occupied by one or more child passengers over the highways or public vehicular areas of North Carolina at a greater rate of speed than 55 miles per hour.
For someone who hasn't been warned about it in advance, the closure rate between someone doing 70 and a bus doing 45 can be quite unnerving-and we all know that people are usually over the limit to start with.To the OP, here in NC the controlling statute is G.S. 20-217, and paragraph (c) allows for not stopping on a divided highway:Quote(c) Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this section, the driver of a vehicle traveling in the opposite direction from the school bus, upon any road, highway or city street that has been divided into two roadways, so constructed as to separate vehicular traffic between the two roadways by an intervening space (including a center lane for left turns if the roadway consists of at least four more lanes) or by a physical barrier, need not stop upon meeting and passing any school bus that has stopped in the roadway across the dividing space or physical barrier.
I am not seeing anything in our statutes here that would alleviate the OP's concern had a similar incident to his occurred here. I would hope that the bus driver would be more aware of their surroundings and figure out a way to allow for traffic to legally get by him/her because in the absence of that the only alternative is to suck it up and wait.
It's worth noting that most of the world does not have laws requiring all traffic completely stop for a school bus and stay stopped until the bus moves. Exercise an elevated level of caution, yes, but not completely stop.
For example, New Zealand requires you slow down to 20 km/h (about 12.5 mph) to pass a stopped school bus:
http://www.drivingtests.co.nz/roadcode-questions/car/core/what-is-the-speed-limit-for-vehicles-pas/
The heavy handed laws in the US are the result of three particular aspects of our culture:
1) we are extremely protective of children, and assume they need to be coddled
2) we have a driving culture that's half rebellious and half oblivious, so compliance levels with a lot of rules of the road are low
3) we have a mindset that is quite authoritarian, where whenever there is a problem we look to stricter rules and stiffer penalties to try and solve it rather than addressing the motives for the problematic behavior.
I would argue this is a vicious cycle; that one major reason American drivers disregard rules of the road so willingly is because the rules they are expected to follow are often draconian and unreasonable. See for example how raising speed limits has been known to increase rates of compliance, while lowering them has been known to have the opposite effect.
I therefore hypothesize that if we were to loosen our rules up around school buses and around driving in general, that counterintuitively it would increase safety because it would cut down on road rage, and because when you make reasonable rules, most people will follow them without a need for enforcement.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 01, 2016, 02:22:18 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 01, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 01, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on March 01, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
Among the signs they have when you enter the state on the interstates, North Carolina has one that says "slow moving school buses use this highway" or something like that. Obviously school buses don't stop on interstates, and are not particularly slow moving. Never understood the point of the signs.
School bus top speed may be either governed mechanically, or geared such that it's difficult to go fast, or slow to accelerate when entering the freeway, or drivers restricted as a matter of policy. Many drivers are probably going faster.
Governors on school busses are annoying. They make merging more difficult and hazardous. I get the whole "protect the children" thing but when you merge onto a highway 15mph below the speed limit (and 20-25mph below the actual rate of traffic) you can create a sizable bottleneck with people moving left to let the bus in.
At least the school buses I've seen are moving along at highway speeds on highways. Heck, I've even encountered them going above the speed limit. Where are we finding buses that have governors putting them well below the speed limit? And remember...the bus driver driving slow is not the same thing as a governor forcing the driver to drive slow.
North Carolina. That is why they have those signs that say slow moving school buses use this highway
Quote from: Duke87 on March 06, 2016, 12:50:40 PM
It's worth noting that most of the world does not have laws requiring all traffic completely stop for a school bus and stay stopped until the bus moves. Exercise an elevated level of caution, yes, but not completely stop.
For example, New Zealand requires you slow down to 20 km/h (about 12.5 mph) to pass a stopped school bus:
http://www.drivingtests.co.nz/roadcode-questions/car/core/what-is-the-speed-limit-for-vehicles-pas/
The heavy handed laws in the US are the result of three particular aspects of our culture:
1) we are extremely protective of children, and assume they need to be coddled
2) we have a driving culture that's half rebellious and half oblivious, so compliance levels with a lot of rules of the road are low
3) we have a mindset that is quite authoritarian, where whenever there is a problem we look to stricter rules and stiffer penalties to try and solve it rather than addressing the motives for the problematic behavior.
I would argue this is a vicious cycle; that one major reason American drivers disregard rules of the road so willingly is because the rules they are expected to follow are often draconian and unreasonable. See for example how raising speed limits has been known to increase rates of compliance, while lowering them has been known to have the opposite effect.
I therefore hypothesize that if we were to loosen our rules up around school buses and around driving in general, that counterintuitively it would increase safety because it would cut down on road rage, and because when you make reasonable rules, most people will follow them without a need for enforcement.
In terms of driver fatalities, though, I believe the US and probably Canada are near the bottom.
There's plenty of countries that have subjectivity worse drivers. Like China.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 06, 2016, 03:00:39 PM
In terms of driver fatalities, though, I believe the US and probably Canada are near the bottom.
There's plenty of countries that have subjectivity worse drivers. Like China.
Compared to other wealthy nations, the US does not fare well (even compared to Canada): http://roadskillmap.com/
Quote from: jakeroot on March 06, 2016, 04:45:58 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on March 06, 2016, 03:00:39 PM
In terms of driver fatalities, though, I believe the US and probably Canada are near the bottom.
There's plenty of countries that have subjectivity worse drivers. Like China.
Compared to other wealthy nations, the US does not fare well (even compared to Canada): http://roadskillmap.com/
Compared to other wealthy nations, Americans drive more. This map shows the number of fatalities per capita, but it doesn't control for differences in per capita VMT.
Nonetheless, that isn't the only factor. The per capita death rate in the US is roughly double what it is in Western Europe according to this map, while the difference in VMT is not as great (average 7,000-8,000 miles per year for private cars in the EU, 10,000-12,000 miles per year for private cars in the US).
I also note that some European nations that are culturally known for being less respectful of rules (see Italy and Greece, for example) have higher death rates than France, Germany, the UK, the nordics, etc.