I don't know about you, but, I smell lawsuits coming fast and furious. Was it really worth the risk of life and vehicle to trod the depth of the Titanic wreckage? This dive was extremely life threatening and extremely dangerous from the very start of the dive. Now, the reports (though many unconfirmed), indicate a possible implosion near the bow of the Titanic, some 1,600 feet nearby after the vessel lost contact with the mothership that deployed the vehicle. It is very sad for the five families of the presumed deceased to hear this tragic discovery, but, at the same time, $250,000 for a deep dive to view Titanic is absolutely the worst kind of business. There are 3D and 4D renderings of the famed ship at various museums that you can go view. You can't go 2 miles below the Atlantic Ocean's surface and expect to come back up alive and well when passing 5,000 feet below the surface. The wreckage is about 12,500 feet, which is well beyond the point of no return. The design of the submersible is suspect. The construction of the vessel's onboard systems is suspect. The very business, OceanGate, is suspect. As far as I'm concerned, OceanGate should not be in operation near any body of water, I don't care if it's the Mississippi River or the Dead Sea or Flathead Lake to be quite honest. It is, indeed, sad the five crew members are presumed lost, but, the spirit of Titanic doesn't fool around.
Wasn't one of the people who died the CEO? My knowledge of these events came mostly from social media memes about the Logitech control submarine.
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Their tour page is still up: https://oceangateexpeditions.com/tour/titanic-expedition/. Scroll down to the FAQ.
The main page also promotes the tour, with a small disclaimer "Limited Space Available". That doesn't read well right now.
They might as well convert it into a memorial website, to honor the lives that were lost.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I don't see how rich people wanting to pay to see the Titanic affects me.
You could also say roadgeek clinching of road mileage and counties and whatever else is also a dangerous activity, supported by our paying of support services --- gas, lodging, eating, car maintenance, etc., etc.
Quote from: Rothman on June 22, 2023, 08:24:51 PM
I don't see how rich people wanting to pay to see the Titanic affects me.
Okay, if you were an employee of OceanGate, if you were a family member of one of the five OceanGate employees, CEO included, you're at home base. They're 900 miles from the nearest seaport. They're trodding two miles of deep ocean. Almost two hours into their dive, all contact is lost. And you now are wondering, "Where could my friends and loved ones be?" Days pass by. The vessel loses oxygen with every passing minute. The water temperature is very cold. Then, you get the terrible news from the rest of OceanGate's board of directors that all crew members are presumed lost. Would
that affect you?
The company name says it all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_-gate_scandals_and_controversies
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
Coming up next: submarine Tit visits Titan and Titanic on the bottom of Atlantic.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Quote from: 1 on June 22, 2023, 08:49:57 PM
The company name says it all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_-gate_scandals_and_controversies
First thing I thought of was the cult Heaven's Gate and it was not listed.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Okay, so confirmation one of the four adults was an asshole.
An argument can be made for another adult given it was certainly a dick move to drag his 19 year old son into this. All the same, do we know what "bag of goods" regarding safety was sold on this expedition? Granted, the Logitech controller probably would have a been a good indicator about the questionable nature of the OceanGate operation.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
Three billionaires. The other, nonbillionaire passenger was a French Navy veteran and a veteran undersea explorer.
Quote from: kalvado on June 22, 2023, 09:30:32 PM
Coming up next: submarine Tit visits Titan and Titanic on the bottom of Atlantic.
After Dicks Out for Harambe, how about Tits Out for Titan?
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 10:03:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
Three billionaires. The other, nonbillionaire passenger was a French Navy veteran and a veteran undersea explorer.
Okay, were down to three people who the masses don't like by default. Does anyone care to break down the lives of the two billionaires who weren't the OceanGate CEO?
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea. (But then if I had fully internalized this lesson at age 19, it would have saved me a lot of grief, so who am I to talk?)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 10:22:01 PM
Okay, were down to three people who the masses don't like by default. Does anyone care to break down the lives of the two billionaires who weren't the OceanGate CEO?
They were rich enough they could have paid someone to do due diligence and didn't.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:48:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 22, 2023, 08:24:51 PM
I don't see how rich people wanting to pay to see the Titanic affects me.
Okay, if you were an employee of OceanGate, if you were a family member of one of the five OceanGate employees, CEO included, you're at home base. They're 900 miles from the nearest seaport. They're trodding two miles of deep ocean. Almost two hours into their dive, all contact is lost. And you now are wondering, "Where could my friends and loved ones be?" Days pass by. The vessel loses oxygen with every passing minute. The water temperature is very cold. Then, you get the terrible news from the rest of OceanGate's board of directors that all crew members are presumed lost. Would that affect you?
Well, of course. But I don't have a personal connection with anyone involved, so it doesn't affect me.
Not sure what your point is.
I don't believe in fate, but visiting the Titanic wreckage via a submarine called Titan crosses the line even for me.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea. (But then if I had fully internalized this lesson at age 19, it would have saved me a lot of grief, so who am I to talk?)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 10:22:01 PM
Okay, were down to three people who the masses don't like by default. Does anyone care to break down the lives of the two billionaires who weren't the OceanGate CEO?
They were rich enough they could have paid someone to do due diligence and didn't.
I mean hey, I enjoy the memes online and find this an incredibly stupid way to die given the cartoonish levels of poor safety standards involved. All the same, people die stupid ways every day without near universal vilification. The driving source of that vilification solely seems to be the earnings of three of the individuals onboard the sub. All I ask is if the income alone enough to merit how so many people are reacting to this?
The only one I'm fully sure at present moment is deserving of vilification is Stockton Rush. Maybe the "fuck billionaires" crowd can actually try to find a case argument for how they feel? I just find this pretty fascinating contrast in the levels of sympathy displayed online, it tends to be one extreme or the other.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:46:49 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Okay, so confirmation one of the four adults was an asshole.
An argument can be made for another adult given it was certainly a dick move to drag his 19 year old son into this. All the same, do we know what "bag of goods" regarding safety was sold on this expedition? Granted, the Logitech controller probably would have a been a good indicator about the questionable nature of the OceanGate operation.
In regards to the "bag of safety," I heard that the waiver took eight paragraphs to describe the many horrible ways you could die or become disabled on the submarine. The submarine also wasn't actually regulated by any governing body whatsoever, if you value that.
The CEO is also on record in 2018 saying that safety regulations are the reason the commercial submarine business hasn't evolved in 30 years. He also fired and sued a pilot after they said it wasn't tested thoroughly enough, and blew the whistle on the whole thing.
I also heard that the glass they got was about a third as thick as it should be for a depth that deep... and literally being bolted into the thing honestly doesn't sound like that good of a design choice to begin with.
It's a horrible tragedy, only made worse because there were so many bad omens leading up to the actual incident. This screams case study to me.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 11:02:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea. (But then if I had fully internalized this lesson at age 19, it would have saved me a lot of grief, so who am I to talk?)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 10:22:01 PM
Okay, were down to three people who the masses don't like by default. Does anyone care to break down the lives of the two billionaires who weren't the OceanGate CEO?
They were rich enough they could have paid someone to do due diligence and didn't.
I mean hey, I enjoy the memes online and find this an incredibly stupid way to die given the cartoonish levels of poor safety standards involved. All the same, people die stupid ways every day without near universal vilification. The driving source of that vilification solely seems to be the earnings of three of the individuals onboard the sub. All I ask is if the income alone enough to merit how so many people are reacting to this?
A ticket to get on this hunk of junk cost $250,000. That's enough money to buy a pretty nice house where I live, and of course more than enough money to pay off what I owe on my house. That's enough money to change the life of just about anyone reading this for the better, to say nothing of how far it could have gone if it were applied to something like a charity, or say, raffled off to give 25 people $10,000. But instead of spending it on something beneficial for anyone but themselves, they chose to squander it on something any smart person would have realized was likely to kill them. (This wasn't even the first safety incident with this particular tin can.) Oh, and when they went missing a bunch of tax money got blown on having the Coast Guard search for them for three days.
That's before you get into the weeds about whether it's even possible to become a billionaire through ethical means. This will vary based on your moral standards, but there's no way that I would be able to both follow my own ethical code and become a billionaire, because I'd be spending too much money taking care of the people that were making me the money.
https://youtu.be/UkJehlr1tEw
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 11:36:34 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 11:02:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea. (But then if I had fully internalized this lesson at age 19, it would have saved me a lot of grief, so who am I to talk?)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 10:22:01 PM
Okay, were down to three people who the masses don't like by default. Does anyone care to break down the lives of the two billionaires who weren't the OceanGate CEO?
They were rich enough they could have paid someone to do due diligence and didn't.
I mean hey, I enjoy the memes online and find this an incredibly stupid way to die given the cartoonish levels of poor safety standards involved. All the same, people die stupid ways every day without near universal vilification. The driving source of that vilification solely seems to be the earnings of three of the individuals onboard the sub. All I ask is if the income alone enough to merit how so many people are reacting to this?
A ticket to get on this hunk of junk cost $250,000. That's enough money to buy a pretty nice house where I live, and of course more than enough money to pay off what I owe on my house. That's enough money to change the life of just about anyone reading this for the better, to say nothing of how far it could have gone if it were applied to something like a charity, or say, raffled off to give 25 people $10,000. But instead of spending it on something beneficial for anyone but themselves, they chose to squander it on something any smart person would have realized was likely to kill them. (This wasn't even the first safety incident with this particular tin can.) Oh, and when they went missing a bunch of tax money got blown on having the Coast Guard search for them for three days.
That's before you get into the weeds about whether it's even possible to become a billionaire through ethical means. This will vary based on your moral standards, but there's no way that I would be able to both follow my own ethical code and become a billionaire, because I'd be spending too much money taking care of the people that were making me the money.
So why not get into the weeds? If some of you are so confident that all three billionaires were as bad you say, it ought to be easy to build a case? That's all I'm asking for, someone to actually build a case on things these people did. Resorting not liking someone because of their wallet alone is weak.
FWIW, I don't see a viable case being built as something difficult to do. I've just not seen anyone actually attempt to do it aside from Stockton Rush.
No billionaire can make their money ethically.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 11:41:01 PM
So why not get into the weeds?
I'd be happy to if you're willing to pay me $25/hour for my research time.
All you folks who are into research can't be bothered to find a couple of snippets of unethical activity when your stance is challenged? I never said that I doubted you could find what you're claiming. If we're going to gloat over the deaths of three wealthy people, why not make build a case for it?
What a sad and tragic end; and the unfortunate coincidence is, these two events occurred almost 110 years apart.
Quote from: Henry on June 23, 2023, 12:10:01 AM
What a sad and tragic end; and the unfortunate coincidence is, these two events occurred almost 110 years apart.
Sad and tragic for the CEO who said "safety is just pure waste" (https://www.insider.com/missing-titanic-sub-ceo-told-reporter-safety-pure-waste-2023-6)? Really? Maybe for the others, but Stockton Rush had karma coming his way from a thousand miles away.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 23, 2023, 12:18:00 AM
Quote from: Henry on June 23, 2023, 12:10:01 AM
What a sad and tragic end; and the unfortunate coincidence is, these two events occurred almost 110 years apart.
Sad and tragic for the CEO who said "safety is just pure waste" (https://www.insider.com/missing-titanic-sub-ceo-told-reporter-safety-pure-waste-2023-6)? Really? Maybe for the others, but Stockton Rush had karma coming his way from a thousand miles away.
Which is an assessment I agree with (lots of other reasons in the prior replies). Rush certainly is coming out of this looking like a POS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_invention#Maritime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_invention#Maritime)
I'm curious as to how they decided on controlling the vessel with an XBox controller of all things was the best idea.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on June 23, 2023, 12:24:48 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_invention#Maritime (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_invention#Maritime)
I'm curious as to how they decided on controlling the vessel with an XBox controller of all things was the best idea.
Not just an Xbox controller, but a knockoff one. It's not like Xbox controllers on submarines are a foreign concept (https://www.insider.com/titanic-tourist-sub-video-game-controller-us-navy-submarines-xbox-2023-6), though the US Navy does get the first party controllers at least.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 11:52:57 PM
No billionaire can make their money ethically.
Depends on the definition of ethics.
Do have to say the whole implication that the billionaires deserved to die doesn't seem very ethical in of itself, if we're going to get on our moral high horses...
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:43:27 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 11:52:57 PM
No billionaire can make their money ethically.
Depends on the definition of ethics.
Do have to say the whole implication that the billionaires deserved to die doesn't seem very ethical in of itself, if we're going to get on our moral high horses...
Depends on the definition of ethics.
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:43:27 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 11:52:57 PM
No billionaire can make their money ethically.
Depends on the definition of ethics.
Do have to say the whole implication that the billionaires deserved to die doesn't seem very ethical in of itself, if we're going to get on our moral high horses...
The billionaire who caused the death of himself and four others said "safety is just pure waste" (https://www.insider.com/missing-titanic-sub-ceo-told-reporter-safety-pure-waste-2023-6).
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 23, 2023, 01:09:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:43:27 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 11:52:57 PM
No billionaire can make their money ethically.
Depends on the definition of ethics.
Do have to say the whole implication that the billionaires deserved to die doesn't seem very ethical in of itself, if we're going to get on our moral high horses...
The billionaire who caused the death of himself and four others said "safety is just pure waste" (https://www.insider.com/missing-titanic-sub-ceo-told-reporter-safety-pure-waste-2023-6).
Therefore...
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 01:18:09 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 23, 2023, 01:09:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:43:27 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 11:52:57 PM
No billionaire can make their money ethically.
Depends on the definition of ethics.
Do have to say the whole implication that the billionaires deserved to die doesn't seem very ethical in of itself, if we're going to get on our moral high horses...
The billionaire who caused the death of himself and four others said "safety is just pure waste" (https://www.insider.com/missing-titanic-sub-ceo-told-reporter-safety-pure-waste-2023-6).
Therefore...
Therefore fuck him. I don't know about the other passengers, but Stockton Rush had it coming.
Pushing out technological frontiers entails a certain measure of risk-taking. There was evidently some disclosure of the hazards since the passengers signed waivers. In my view, the thing that may very well destroy the company is the decision to build the submersible with a viewing window not rated for depths of 4000 m. That alone would seem to cross the line from unconservative design to willful (and homicidal) foolishness.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 12:00:26 AM
All you folks who are into research can't be bothered to find a couple of snippets of unethical activity when your stance is challenged? I never said that I doubted you could find what you're claiming. If we're going to gloat over the deaths of three wealthy people, why not make build a case for it?
It's not that I can't be bothered, it's that when one works for oneself, the opportunity cost of stopping to indulge in a deep dive is too great. Any hour I spend researching something to win an Internet argument I don't actually care about winning is an hour not spent putting money in my pocket.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 23, 2023, 02:09:26 AM
Pushing out technological frontiers entails a certain measure of risk-taking. There was evidently some disclosure of the hazards since the passengers signed waivers. In my view, the thing that may very well destroy the company is the decision to build the submersible with a viewing window not rated for depths of 4000 m. That alone would seem to cross the line from unconservative design to willful (and homicidal) foolishness.
As they say, "pioneers get the arrows..."
Of course, by all accounts, most pioneers aren't willfully ignorant, they just take chances when they don't otherwise know better; it seems OceanGate may have known better.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 07:47:16 PM
You can't go 2 miles below the Atlantic Ocean's surface and expect to come back up alive and well when passing 5,000 feet below the surface.
Nothing is guaranteed, but are you likely to encounter issues when diving in a submarine at these depths? No. This was an anomaly, though admittedly accelerated by some foolish decisions by designers.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 23, 2023, 05:08:04 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 23, 2023, 02:09:26 AM
Pushing out technological frontiers entails a certain measure of risk-taking. There was evidently some disclosure of the hazards since the passengers signed waivers. In my view, the thing that may very well destroy the company is the decision to build the submersible with a viewing window not rated for depths of 4000 m. That alone would seem to cross the line from unconservative design to willful (and homicidal) foolishness.
As they say, "pioneers get the arrows..."
Of course, by all accounts, most pioneers aren't willfully ignorant, they just take chances when they don't otherwise know better; it seems OceanGate may have known better.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 07:47:16 PM
You can't go 2 miles below the Atlantic Ocean's surface and expect to come back up alive and well when passing 5,000 feet below the surface.
Nothing is guaranteed, but are you likely to encounter issues when diving in a submarine at these depths? No. This was an anomaly, though admittedly accelerated by some foolish decisions by designers.
These are not pioneers. William Beebe and Jacques Piccard indeed were, and they both died at pretty respectable age in bed.
Adventure seekers is a better word.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 23, 2023, 01:23:03 AM
Therefore fuck him. I don't know about the other passengers, but Stockton Rush had it coming.
I pretty much have the same opinion. Stockton Rush was reckless, and his recklessness cost him his life and those of four other people, one being one of the foremost undersea explorers in the world, and another who didn't want to be there in the first place but felt like he had no choice because it was important to his dad (and being in a family where you don't say no to your dad).
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea. (But then if I had fully internalized this lesson at age 19, it would have saved me a lot of grief, so who am I to talk?)
It's not that simple. In a lot of cultures, especially Asian ones, you just do not say no to your parents when they want you to do something.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 23, 2023, 02:34:50 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 12:00:26 AM
All you folks who are into research can't be bothered to find a couple of snippets of unethical activity when your stance is challenged? I never said that I doubted you could find what you're claiming. If we're going to gloat over the deaths of three wealthy people, why not make build a case for it?
It's not that I can't be bothered, it's that when one works for oneself, the opportunity cost of stopping to indulge in a deep dive is too great. Any hour I spend researching something to win an Internet argument I don't actually care about winning is an hour not spent putting money in my pocket.
There in lies my point. I'm all for calling out pieces of crap like Stockton Rush as the clear and easy villain in stories like this. The other two billionaires are easy punching bags because of how much money they have. If I'm going to shit on those two openly I would prefer to at least have some sort of confirmation that they aren't the great dudes I suspect them to be. Accumulated wealth alone for me isn't enough circumstantial proof.
I guess it kind of surprises me that you of all people on this forum it's you would so casually make this leap in logic. Perhaps you aren't wrong, but it still surprises me.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:20:29 AMAccumulated wealth alone for me isn't enough circumstantial proof.
I'm with Scott and others - it is virtually impossible to amass one billion American dollars and not be a good person.
One million dollars is a sum of money that would last any of us for 15-20 years, assuming conservative investments.
One billion dollars is 1,000 times that amount.
In conclusion,
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/355722016_10159427513128388_4815998141593009857_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=8l7GLwAUOaQAX9CfJWy&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCpaK1fxqAc4jn5dCY_5xmy4xgIeTnoGxuudRD8_1-nLg&oe=649B542B)
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 23, 2023, 09:33:13 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:20:29 AMAccumulated wealth alone for me isn't enough circumstantial proof.
I'm with Scott and others - it is virtually impossible to amass one billion American dollars and not be a good person.
One million dollars is a sum of money that would last any of us for 15-20 years, assuming conservative investments.
One billion dollars is 1,000 times that amount.
In conclusion,
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/355722016_10159427513128388_4815998141593009857_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=8l7GLwAUOaQAX9CfJWy&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCpaK1fxqAc4jn5dCY_5xmy4xgIeTnoGxuudRD8_1-nLg&oe=649B542B)
Yeah, here's the thing...what if you're wrong? I don't suspect that you are wrong, but the possibility does exist. Is it not at least somewhat callous to make that presumption about two people you don't really know anything about?
There has been a lot of talk about "morals" and "ethics" in this thread. I guess maybe I see failing to back up opinions that someone with money is bad as morally questionable? A lot people who are making the presumption in this thread have demanded more from others when it came to non-billionaires.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:40:25 AMI guess maybe I see failing to back up opinions that someone with money is bad as morally questionable?
You're looking for proof that hoarding wealth, to the point where you can spend $250,000 as easily as most of us would spend $25, is morally questionable? I'd start with the source texts for several major world religions.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:40:25 AMA lot people who are making the presumption in this thread have demanded more from others when it came to non-billionaires.
Not me - in fact, the reason I have little sympathy for the billionaires is the fact that, unlike non-billionaires, they can afford to pay people to explain to them why something like this was a bloody stupid idea.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:20:29 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 23, 2023, 02:34:50 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 12:00:26 AM
All you folks who are into research can't be bothered to find a couple of snippets of unethical activity when your stance is challenged? I never said that I doubted you could find what you're claiming. If we're going to gloat over the deaths of three wealthy people, why not make build a case for it?
It's not that I can't be bothered, it's that when one works for oneself, the opportunity cost of stopping to indulge in a deep dive is too great. Any hour I spend researching something to win an Internet argument I don't actually care about winning is an hour not spent putting money in my pocket.
There in lies my point. I'm all for calling out pieces of crap like Stockton Rush as the clear and easy villain in stories like this. The other two billionaires are easy punching bags because of how much money they have. If I'm going to shit on those two openly I would prefer to at least have some sort of confirmation that they aren't the great dudes I suspect them to be. Accumulated wealth alone for me isn't enough circumstantial proof.
I guess it kind of surprises me that you of all people on this forum it's you would so casually make this leap in logic. Perhaps you aren't wrong, but it still surprises me.
I agree wholeheartedly with Max here. There's a lot of dancing on their proverbial graves here merely because of their status as billionaires. Presumably, their wealth has generated more economic activity than the entire sum of the users of this forum, and we're dealing with some good old-fashioned class envy here.
Many of us are engineers, and engineers shouldn't rush to judgment. Even if Mr. Rush made some stupid comments, that doesn't inherently mean the engineering was theoretically unsafe, although it seems as if they were pushing its known limits. We know next to nothing other than it was a catastrophic implosion known to have happened on Sunday (that for some reason our Navy just released yesterday after four days of media coverage). Presumably, there will be a post-mortem where we see what went right and what went wrong with the craft, and we can form scientific and safety-based conclusions then for future craft. Until we see that, we should exercise some compassion and withhold judgment and blame assignment until we have all the facts.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 23, 2023, 09:46:40 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:40:25 AMI guess maybe I see failing to back up opinions that someone with money is bad as morally questionable?
You're looking for proof that hoarding wealth, to the point where you can spend $250,000 as easily as most of us would spend $25, is morally questionable? I'd start with the source texts for several major world religions.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:40:25 AMA lot people who are making the presumption in this thread have demanded more from others when it came to non-billionaires.
Not me - in fact, the reason I have little sympathy for the billionaires is the fact that, unlike non-billionaires, they can afford to pay people to explain to them why something like this was a bloody stupid idea.
You're bringing up things like religions texts and what social media pundits are saying, how is either reliable? I'm sure there is way more substantial data on these people available than that. For as much as people say they don't care about this story, there is sure a lot of people here rushing to make easy conclusions regarding those on the submarine.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 23, 2023, 09:33:13 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 09:20:29 AMAccumulated wealth alone for me isn't enough circumstantial proof.
I'm with Scott and others - it is virtually impossible to amass one billion American dollars and not be a good person.
One million dollars is a sum of money that would last any of us for 15-20 years, assuming conservative investments.
One billion dollars is 1,000 times that amount.
In conclusion,
(https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/355722016_10159427513128388_4815998141593009857_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=8l7GLwAUOaQAX9CfJWy&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCpaK1fxqAc4jn5dCY_5xmy4xgIeTnoGxuudRD8_1-nLg&oe=649B542B)
I once saw an excellent explanation of how to think of the value of huge amounts of money; the explanation was made in the context of multi-trillion-dollar federal budgets. Most of us have trouble imagining the actual value of that amount of money in a lump sum because it exceeds any life experience many of us have. But pretty much all of us, except maybe some of our youngest forum members, can relate to a thousand dollars.
So the example I saw said to assume you are going to be given exactly $1 million and you must spend it in increments of exactly $1000 per day (assume taxes and the like are not an issue and just go with the round figure). Assuming no leap years, it would take you two years and 270 days to spend the million dollars. 270 days is about 0.74 of a year. Round that off to 0.75 for convenience: It would take you 2.75 years to spend the money.
If, instead, you were given exactly $1 billion subject to the same $1000-a-day requirement, it would take you roughly 2,750 years to spend the billion (slight rounding-induced error, plus I'm not accounting for leap years because it's too much trouble).
What if you were given exactly $1 trillion subject to the same $1000-a-day requirement? A trillion is a thousand times a billion. It would take you roughly 2,750,000 years to spend it all.
People who are happy that people died based on their wealth may want to re-examine what type of people they are, especially when the ones here doing it are the loudest screamers that certain people's rights should be granted more importance for specious (at best) reasons.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 23, 2023, 01:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 01:18:09 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 23, 2023, 01:09:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:43:27 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 11:52:57 PM
No billionaire can make their money ethically.
Depends on the definition of ethics.
Do have to say the whole implication that the billionaires deserved to die doesn't seem very ethical in of itself, if we're going to get on our moral high horses...
The billionaire who caused the death of himself and four others said "safety is just pure waste" (https://www.insider.com/missing-titanic-sub-ceo-told-reporter-safety-pure-waste-2023-6).
Therefore...
Therefore fuck him. I don't know about the other passengers, but Stockton Rush had it coming.
The other passengers are a sacrifice you're willing to make. How ethical.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 23, 2023, 02:34:50 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 12:00:26 AM
All you folks who are into research can't be bothered to find a couple of snippets of unethical activity when your stance is challenged? I never said that I doubted you could find what you're claiming. If we're going to gloat over the deaths of three wealthy people, why not make build a case for it?
It's not that I can't be bothered, it's that when one works for oneself, the opportunity cost of stopping to indulge in a deep dive is too great. Any hour I spend researching something to win an Internet argument I don't actually care about winning is an hour not spent putting money in my pocket.
"I just wish death on people based upon stereotypes rather than learning about the individuals since it's easier to justify."
1. People aren't assholes just because they're rich. Hating on the 1% is one of the most popular things to do these days, but it's shameful. Not everyone is an Andrew Carnegie; some are a Colonel Sanders.
2. $250,000 could by a nice house, or think of all the good that could be done with it by a charity organization? The same could be said of anyone's luxury purchases. Anybody buying a new Tesla Model 3 could be accused of wasteful spending, because they could have bought a used Camry instead and donated the rest to charity. Have you looked into how much each of the evil billionaires donates to charity every year? I'm betting that you actually have no idea if they are generous towards charitable causes or not, instead simply assuming that they spend all their money on themselves.
3. Even if they were all selfish, unethical, sleazy assholes–I still shouldn't wish them death. To some degree we're all selfish, unethical, sleazy assholes after all.
This entire saga reminds me a bit of the ship that got stuck in the Suez Canal last year, only more tragic. It was seemingly all the internet was talking about for a few days, then almost completely forgotten shortly after the, uh, resolution.
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 10:59:07 AM
1. People aren't assholes just because they're rich. Hating on the 1% is one of the most popular things to do these days, but it's shameful. Not everyone is an Andrew Carnegie; some are a Colonel Sanders.
Hey, I just re-read Luke 18:25 just now, and guess what? #NotAllRichMen isn't in there!
Quote from: SectorZ on June 23, 2023, 10:16:26 AMthe ones here doing it are the loudest screamers that certain people's rights should be granted more importance for specious (at best) reasons.
Oh, please elaborate.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 23, 2023, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 10:59:07 AM
1. People aren't assholes just because they're rich. Hating on the 1% is one of the most popular things to do these days, but it's shameful. Not everyone is an Andrew Carnegie; some are a Colonel Sanders.
Hey, I just re-read Luke 18:25 just now, and guess what? #NotAllRichMen isn't in there!
Hey, I just checked, and #metaphor and #hyperbole were both common literary devices back when the Gospel of Luke was written.
Wealthy Christians mentioned in the New Testament (there are others too):
Acts 4:36-37
Acts 10:1-2
Acts 16:14-15
ETA – see Joseph of Arimathea (Matthew 27:57-60).
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 11:55:34 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 23, 2023, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 10:59:07 AM
1. People aren't assholes just because they're rich. Hating on the 1% is one of the most popular things to do these days, but it's shameful. Not everyone is an Andrew Carnegie; some are a Colonel Sanders.
Hey, I just re-read Luke 18:25 just now, and guess what? #NotAllRichMen isn't in there!
Hey, I just checked, and #metaphor and #hyperbole were both common literary devices back when the Gospel of Luke was written.
Wealthy Christians mentioned in the New Testament (there are others too):
Acts 4:36-37
Acts 10:1-2
Acts 16:14-15
ETA – see Joseph of Arimathea (Matthew 27:57-60).
Ah yes, those are the parts of the Bible that are not to be taken literally.
As opposed to all of the parts that even vaguely mention homosexuality.
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 10:59:07 AM
1. People aren't assholes just because they're rich. Hating on the 1% is one of the most popular things to do these days, but it's shameful. Not everyone is an Andrew Carnegie; some are a Colonel Sanders.
3. Even if they were all selfish, unethical, sleazy assholes–I still shouldn't wish them death. To some degree we're all selfish, unethical, sleazy assholes after all.
Wait, Colonel Sanders was a good guy?
I'm with you on #3, but hating on the 1%, who use their economic and political influence to keep the rest of us down, is quite justified.
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:13:19 PM
Wait, Colonel Sanders was a good guy?
By all accounts I've read by people who knew him personally, yes, he was a good guy. I believe that, toward the end of his life, he even made it his goal to give away all of his wealth and die penniless–but, by that point, he was earning so much he literally couldn't give it away fast enough.
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:13:19 PM
I'm with you on #3, but hating on the 1%, who use their economic and political influence to keep the rest of us down, is quite justified.
Again, you just assumed that the 1% are using their influence to keep the rest of us down, without considering the possibility that some of them are actually using their influence for good and to bring the rest of us up.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 23, 2023, 12:10:43 PM
Ah yes, those are the parts of the Bible that are not to be taken literally.
Well played.
Colonel Sanders is one of the stranger pop culture icons I've found. The story that always found bizarre is with Colonel Sanders is the gas station branding shootout where his district manager was killed.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/kfc-colonel-sanders-shoot-out
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 12:20:03 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:13:19 PM
I'm with you on #3, but hating on the 1%, who use their economic and political influence to keep the rest of us down, is quite justified.
Again, you just assumed that the 1% are using their influence to keep the rest of us down, without considering the possibility that some of them are actually using their influence for good and to bring the rest of us up.
Not really, because Capitalism. Although I think ethical appeals are subjective, the fact of the matter is becoming wealthy in our society involves using influence as I described.
Show me a billionaire philanthropist and I'll show you someone that still minimized pay and benefits to labor to achieve profits.
Very sad news.
Quote from: Rothman on June 23, 2023, 12:40:20 PM
Show me a billionaire philanthropist and I'll show you someone that still minimized pay and benefits to labor to achieve profits.
Sorry if I don't keep up with who all the billionaire philanthropists are, to know how to answer that challenge. But, I don't know, Dan Price? (not saying he's a good guy)
There is a proverb to the effect that "Behind every great fortune lies a great crime." This said, I think hunting for evidence of specific moral culpability in the biographies of individual billionaires takes the focus off the real problem, which is systemic: we live in a system that redistributes wealth upward, to the extent that the global population of billionaires has doubled in the last 12 years while real per-capita income in the middle and lower deciles has stagnated.
For all of the talk about "late stage capitalism" (designed to hint that capitalism itself is about to implode), the real cause is that we have abandoned the redistributive mechanisms (such as sharply progressive taxation) that, in the middle decades of the 20th century, allowed us to maintain a capitalistic system where it was still possible for people to become rich through innovation but incomes and the standard of living increased across nearly all per-capita income deciles.
Rather than speculate, here's an article (https://www.npr.org/2023/06/22/1183778115/titanic-sub-titan-hamish-harding-stockton-rush) about the passengers. TL:DR summary:
Hamish Harding - chairman of Action Aviation, an explorer by nature who broke the Guinness world record for the fastest flight around both the Earth's poles in 2019. Not enough to judge.
Shahzada Dawood - vice chairman of Engro, a Pakistani energy investment company, and the Dawood Hercules Corp., an investment and holdings firm. Has served on various boards, including the SETI Institute, a NASA-funded nonprofit dedicated to extraterrestrial research, and Prince Charles' charity, Prince's Trust International. Doesn't seem to be an asshole. It was his son who also died.
Paul-Henri Nargeolet - retired French Navy commander and led the first recovery dive to the Titanic wreckage in 1987. He also completed 37 dives in a submersible to the Titanic shipwreck over the course of his career. Seems fairly upright.
Stockton Rush - doesn't tell much but from everything else I've read he seems like an arrogant d-bag.
At least we know their estates can easily afford the search and recovery bill.
I'll show these cash-chuckers in death the same respect they show us wage slaves in life.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 23, 2023, 03:39:45 PM
At least we know their estates can easily afford the search and recovery bill.
I'll show these cash-chuckers in death the same respect they show us wage slaves in life.
I've never been directly or indirectly disrespected by any of the three billionaires involved, have you?
Honestly, I've been directly disrespected by a LOT more poor people than rich people.
In fact, if I had to guess who the richest people I know are, it would probably be the couple who are currently in the process of trying to sell their 31.11-acre property here in Wichita, which is currently listed at $1,749,000. They're some of the most down-to-earth, nicest people I know, and my own children have gone over to their place for pool parties more than once. Never one ounce of disrespect shown, that I can recall.
In the past, I'd have said it was the owners of Silver Dollar City, whose family has a net worth of around $1 billion, last I checked. We haven't really kept up with them, though, so I'm not even sure they'd recognize me anymore. But I've been to their house for their daughter's birthday party, and she was the flower girl in our wedding. Again, never one ounce of disrespect shown to me.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 23, 2023, 12:28:15 PM
Colonel Sanders is one of the stranger pop culture icons I've found. The story that always found bizarre is with Colonel Sanders is the gas station branding shootout where his district manager was killed.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/posts/kfc-colonel-sanders-shoot-out
A few years after his death, he was the subject of a Japanese baseball curse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_the_Colonel). (Fun fact: Randy Bass, for whom the Colonel statue was the avatar, later became a senator.)
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 23, 2023, 08:34:28 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea. (But then if I had fully internalized this lesson at age 19, it would have saved me a lot of grief, so who am I to talk?)
It's not that simple. In a lot of cultures, especially Asian ones, you just do not say no to your parents when they want you to do something.
They should do it anyway. I've learned from experience that doing what my dad wants nearly always has negative consequences for me. I can't imagine that stops being a possibility just because of cultural expectations (rather, I would imagine some parents abuse that expectation).
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 23, 2023, 04:39:47 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 23, 2023, 08:34:28 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea. (But then if I had fully internalized this lesson at age 19, it would have saved me a lot of grief, so who am I to talk?)
It's not that simple. In a lot of cultures, especially Asian ones, you just do not say no to your parents when they want you to do something.
They should do it anyway. I've learned from experience that doing what my dad wants nearly always has negative consequences for me. I can't imagine that stops being a possibility just because of cultural expectations (rather, I would imagine some parents abuse that expectation).
My dad and brother talked me into all sorts of risky activities when I was about 19. None of them included a Logitech controlled submarine but I did end up with a broken ankle after I barrel rolled an ATV down a hill in the Sonoran Desert. If my dad had asked me to join him on a Titanic submarine voyage at that age I probably would have gone, even if begrudgingly.
Quote from: kalvado on June 23, 2023, 08:04:15 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 23, 2023, 05:08:04 AM
As they say, "pioneers get the arrows..."
These are not pioneers. William Beebe and Jacques Piccard indeed were, and they both died at pretty respectable age in bed.
Adventure seekers is a better word.
It's just a proverb to explain why those who push the boundaries of...
anything...are usually the ones to suffer the consequences of that boundary-pushing.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Um, yeah. That's a
BIIIIG boohoo. They should
never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.
Quote from: kalvado on June 23, 2023, 08:04:15 AM
These are not pioneers. William Beebe and Jacques Piccard indeed were, and they both died at pretty respectable age in bed.
Adventure seekers is a better word.
Actually, the two highlighted below seem rather pioneer-like to me. Certainly more so than your average joe.
Quote from: skluth on June 23, 2023, 02:40:47 PM
Hamish Harding - chairman of Action Aviation, an explorer by nature who broke the Guinness world record for the fastest flight around both the Earth's poles in 2019.
Paul-Henri Nargeolet - retired French Navy commander and led the first recovery dive to the Titanic wreckage in 1987. He also completed 37 dives in a submersible to the Titanic shipwreck over the course of his career.
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 06:55:26 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 23, 2023, 08:04:15 AM
These are not pioneers. William Beebe and Jacques Piccard indeed were, and they both died at pretty respectable age in bed.
Adventure seekers is a better word.
Actually, the two highlighted below seem rather pioneer-like to me. Certainly more so than your average joe.
Quote from: skluth on June 23, 2023, 02:40:47 PM
Hamish Harding - chairman of Action Aviation, an explorer by nature who broke the Guinness world record for the fastest flight around both the Earth's poles in 2019.
Paul-Henri Nargeolet - retired French Navy commander and led the first recovery dive to the Titanic wreckage in 1987. He also completed 37 dives in a submersible to the Titanic shipwreck over the course of his career.
Nah.
I would say there was one person there who was really pushing real limits.. Feel free to disagree.
Another reason to only trust people who got their positions due to their merit and experience in positions of life safety.
Mike
It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.
Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.
My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 24, 2023, 08:27:15 PM
It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.
Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.
My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.
So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?
Regarding the controller...
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a44286811/titan-submersible-video-game-controller/
I vaguely remember something about a Navy submarine using an Xbox controller before this whole OceanGate incident. From what I recall the reason an Xbox controller was used was due to the simplicity and easy learning curve. The takeaway I had was that simple wasn't necessarily "bad design." As silly as the Logitech controller seems, it likely didn't contribute in any way to a hull breach.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 24, 2023, 09:09:41 PM
I vaguely remember something about a Navy submarine using an Xbox controller before this whole OceanGate incident. From what I recall the reason an Xbox controller was used was due to the simplicity and easy learning curve. The takeaway I had was that simple wasn't necessarily "bad design." As silly as the Logitech controller seems, it likely didn't contribute in any way to a hull breach.
Simple is definitely an advantage in many cases. I don't know how reliable those controllers are, though, so that may be a sticking point.
Quote from: kalvado on June 24, 2023, 09:03:29 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 24, 2023, 08:27:15 PM
It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.
Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.
My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.
So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?
Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels. In one of the interviews I watched on YouTube, Cameron was heavily not in favor of the wound filament composite body of the sub that was lost last Thursday. If you took a soda can wrapped in carbon fiber or wound filament down a deep lake for example, there will come a point to where it will eventually break. If you wrap the same can in the conventional steel cladding or other conventional composite metals, said can would not break. This sub didn't break right away, but the possibility was extremely likely, not that Stockton Rush ever gave a damn about it right away, but still, if a conventional steel composite was used, there would have been pressure exerted on the vessel, but not to the point of imploding. You'd have to lay in pretty hard to implode a steel composite sub. The U.S.S. Montana for example could go down to 1.5 miles below the surface given a more dynamic pressure system to keep the vessel from breaking, but only because it's bigger and it's a commissioned naval vehicle, not a private deep dive vessel. Using carbon fiber or wound filament composite skin is a sure one-way ticket to a disaster like this one in as little as a dozen or so dives. Only cheapskates would dare use carbon fiber or wound filament just to get the job done, not create a safety chamber. Rush got cheap and look at what his flimsy design got him. A death sentence two miles below the ocean surface.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 24, 2023, 11:24:22 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 24, 2023, 09:03:29 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 24, 2023, 08:27:15 PM
It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.
Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.
My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.
So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?
Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels. In one of the interviews I watched on YouTube, Cameron was heavily not in favor of the wound filament composite body of the sub that was lost last Thursday. If you took a soda can wrapped in carbon fiber or wound filament down a deep lake for example, there will come a point to where it will eventually break. If you wrap the same can in the conventional steel cladding or other conventional composite metals, said can would not break. This sub didn't break right away, but the possibility was extremely likely, not that Stockton Rush ever gave a damn about it right away, but still, if a conventional steel composite was used, there would have been pressure exerted on the vessel, but not to the point of imploding. You'd have to lay in pretty hard to implode a steel composite sub. The U.S.S. Montana for example could go down to 1.5 miles below the surface given a more dynamic pressure system to keep the vessel from breaking, but only because it's bigger and it's a commissioned naval vehicle, not a private deep dive vessel. Using carbon fiber or wound filament composite skin is a sure one-way ticket to a disaster like this one in as little as a dozen or so dives. Only cheapskates would dare use carbon fiber or wound filament just to get the job done, not create a safety chamber. Rush got cheap and look at what his flimsy design got him. A death sentence two miles below the ocean surface.
Cameron as a source of engineering knowledge must be real fun to watch.
Somehow there are carbon fiber planes flying these days, for example
I hoped to hear something about directional strength under compressive load, that is something not obvious for me. Steel - or any metal, actually - being poor material choice for external pressure vessels is something well known for ages . It's just about limited choices.
The latest report is that the sub is been discovered as wreckage as it's believed to have imploded due to structural issues.
They're going to review the last transmission that took place between the Titan and the mother ship.
I assume everyone saw one of these (numerous) videos; yet - this is how steel vessel implodes under 1 atmosphere load:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz95_VvTxZM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 23, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.
They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 26, 2023, 04:46:42 AM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 23, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.
They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.
And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!
Quote from: thspfc on June 26, 2023, 08:09:46 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 05:45:36 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 26, 2023, 04:46:42 AM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 23, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.
They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.
And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!
Explain how Columbus' voyage and the Titan's "voyage" are even remotely comparable.
Both were heading for fame and money. Both were pretty risky endeavors.
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 08:15:51 AM
Quote from: thspfc on June 26, 2023, 08:09:46 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 05:45:36 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 26, 2023, 04:46:42 AM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 23, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.
They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.
And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!
Explain how Columbus' voyage and the Titan's "voyage" are even remotely comparable.
Both were heading for fame and money. Both were pretty risky endeavors.
Heh. Talk about the pendulum swinging. I didn't think Columbus and OceanGate were an apt comparison (tourism versus exploration), but when thspfc said they weren't "remotely comparable," that's also silly.
Quote from: Rothman on June 26, 2023, 08:40:11 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 08:15:51 AM
Quote from: thspfc on June 26, 2023, 08:09:46 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 05:45:36 AM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 26, 2023, 04:46:42 AM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 23, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on June 22, 2023, 09:30:44 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 22, 2023, 09:25:32 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 22, 2023, 09:16:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 08:10:32 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).
I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd. Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair. Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?
The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 22, 2023, 08:08:57 PM
Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.
Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.
Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.
They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.
And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!
Explain how Columbus' voyage and the Titan's "voyage" are even remotely comparable.
Both were heading for fame and money. Both were pretty risky endeavors.
Heh. Talk about the pendulum swinging. I didn't think Columbus and OceanGate were an apt comparison (tourism versus exploration), but when thspfc said they weren't "remotely comparable," that's also silly.
If you think about it, there is not much of frontier left to push. One can go to Everest or North Pole commercially. South Pole has a long term base. Antarctic highland may be difficult, but largely meaningless.
Underwater and space are two major ways left. And, pure imho, space may never deliver as promised.
As for exploration... I thought gold and spice were two things to drive the age of discovery, exploration being a tool, if that.
Space May never get the chance as there is still all those theories or prophecies that a major disaster lurks us before the twenty thirties come about.
Who knows that’s why I think about today only as if I worry about tomorrow it just causes needless panic as many experts have been wrong and too many claiming they know the future in the past that were nowhere near right today.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 26, 2023, 08:53:01 AM
Space May never get the chance as there is still all those theories or prophecies that a major disaster lurks us before the twenty thirties come about.
Who knows that's why I think about today only as if I worry about tomorrow it just causes needless panic as many experts have been wrong and too many claiming they know the future in the past that were nowhere near right today.
There has always been doomsday sayers. The problem with space is the distances involve time that extends way beyond human scales. Unless some sort of viable way to bypass the Speed of Light like folding spacetime, we aren't likely to make it far into the cosmos.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 26, 2023, 10:54:34 AM
On Megaprojects today:
Draining off negativity and finger-pointing "look, they died!".. there is very little left actually.
After any disaster, there will be people who said "I told you so!". They are always there, sometimes they are right, often they are wrong. If using a simple controller is the worst incriminating thing, I would say things were in a good shape actually.
I wonder if investigation would bring up something. For one, navy will want to know composite failure mode, so there may be something to learn.
In other news, see Challenger space shuttle, Boeing MCAS on latest 737, and Toyota uncommanded acceleration as "you must be joking!" class of failures. Of those 3, only qualifies as "cutting corners in pushing the boundary"
Quote from: kalvado on June 24, 2023, 09:13:13 PM
Simple is definitely an advantage in many cases. I don't know how reliable those controllers are, though, so that may be a sticking point.
The bolded part is key. Nobody seems to have known how reliable any part of it was.
A good friend of mine certifies aircraft for a living. He made the comparison, while we were talking last night, between aircraft and submarine craft: in either case, a critical failure during operation is a Very Bad Thing. If something goes very wrong up in the sky or under the sea, then you can pretty much count on a catastrophic outcome. He pointed out that, at his job, he even has to certify the interior lighting in every airplane–because you wouldn't want an airplane's interior light to develop brittle wiring and then eventually start a fire at 5000 feet elevation.
Quote from: kalvado on June 24, 2023, 09:03:29 PM
So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 24, 2023, 11:24:22 PM
Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels.
Quote from: kalvado on June 25, 2023, 06:57:44 AM
Cameron as a source of engineering knowledge must be real fun to watch.
Somehow there are carbon fiber planes flying these days, for example
Allow me to repeat the conversation I had last night with that same friend, who is literally an engineer whose job every day is to certify airplanes:
– me:
The craft had already done multiple dives before this incident.– him:
That's the problem.
Quote from: kphoger on June 26, 2023, 11:30:01 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 24, 2023, 09:13:13 PM
Simple is definitely an advantage in many cases. I don't know how reliable those controllers are, though, so that may be a sticking point.
The bolded part is key. Nobody seems to have known how reliable any part of it was.
A good friend of mine certifies aircraft for a living. He made the comparison, while we were talking last night, between aircraft and submarine craft: in either case, a critical failure during operation is a Very Bad Thing. If something goes very wrong up in the sky or under the sea, then you can pretty much count on a catastrophic outcome. He pointed out that, at his job, he even has to certify the interior lighting in every airplane–because you wouldn't want an airplane's interior light to develop brittle wiring and then eventually start a fire at 5000 feet elevation.
Quote from: kalvado on June 24, 2023, 09:03:29 PM
So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 24, 2023, 11:24:22 PM
Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels.
Quote from: kalvado on June 25, 2023, 06:57:44 AM
Cameron as a source of engineering knowledge must be real fun to watch.
Somehow there are carbon fiber planes flying these days, for example
Allow me to repeat the conversation I had last night with that same friend, who is literally an engineer whose job every day is to certify airplanes:
– me: The craft had already done multiple dives before this incident.
– him: That's the problem.
(A bit of negativity about certification in general, and FAA in particular is self censored)
With that - would controller failure be a catastrophic event? Any fallbacks?
My expectation is that was a USB device connected to control PC. So any other PC control - mouse, keyboard, touchscreen - are possible fallback options, maybe for reduced functionality. Not to mention "ballast drop on battery run out" fail-safe mode implied overall.
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2023, 04:25:28 PM
Honestly, I've been directly disrespected by a LOT more poor people than rich people.
That's because the rich don't have to meet you to disrespect you. They'll take your money and freedoms from a distance using lawyers most of the time. The poor don't have much so poor assholes do it the only way they can, to your face. But at least that disrespect is usually just annoying and temporary.
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 11:43:08 AM
(A bit of negativity about certification in general, and FAA in particular is self censored)
With that - would controller failure be a catastrophic event? Any fallbacks?
Exactly. The biggest takeaway from the 737 MAX business is the importance of eliminating single-point failures.
Quote from: kphoger on June 26, 2023, 11:52:16 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 11:43:08 AM
(A bit of negativity about certification in general, and FAA in particular is self censored)
With that - would controller failure be a catastrophic event? Any fallbacks?
Exactly. The biggest takeaway from the 737 MAX business is the importance of eliminating single-point failures.
One of. And I would be more concerned with control computer redundancy I that case. But honestly speaking this thing looks simple enough to have some very manual fall back down to a dozen switches and a Big Red Button for "cut off battery for ballast drop and immediate surfacing"
Now if they say implosion was the failure, I wonder if that was structural or something else. Battery runaway is a common thing these days, for example
Quote from: kalvado on June 26, 2023, 11:21:40 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 26, 2023, 10:54:34 AM
On Megaprojects today:
Draining off negativity and finger-pointing "look, they died!".. there is very little left actually.
After any disaster, there will be people who said "I told you so!". They are always there, sometimes they are right, often they are wrong. If using a simple controller is the worst incriminating thing, I would say things were in a good shape actually.
I wonder if investigation would bring up something. For one, navy will want to know composite failure mode, so there may be something to learn.
In other news, see Challenger space shuttle, Boeing MCAS on latest 737, and Toyota uncommanded acceleration as "you must be joking!" class of failures. Of those 3, only qualifies as "cutting corners in pushing the boundary"
FWIW the controller was barely mentioned in the video. Pretty much everything else I've read as being suspect with the Titan is at least broached once.
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
The problem with it is it makes one wonder what other cheap off-the-shelf components have been pressed into service to do things they weren't intended by the manufacturer to do.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
The problem with it is it makes one wonder what other cheap off-the-shelf components have been pressed into service to do things they weren't intended by the manufacturer to do.
I realized I was sitting on a machine with a million parts all built by the lowest bidder.Attributed to John Glenn and Allan Sheppard.
Once you need something non-trivial, certification business stopps feeling ridiculous and starts feeling like a sabotage.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
The problem with it is it makes one wonder what other cheap off-the-shelf components have been pressed into service to do things they weren't intended by the manufacturer to do.
Many local TV news weather forecasters use buttons on garage door openers to change the greenscreen image that appears behind them.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
I referee events for FIRST Robotics Competition. Many of the high school teams say they would not use that controller for their robot. They are just not reliable enough, considering other options that are available.
Quote
The problem with it is it makes one wonder what other cheap off-the-shelf components have been pressed into service to do things they weren't intended by the manufacturer to do.
And this point was brought up by the high schoolers as well. Some also mentioned the failure that was possible from repeated stress on the carbon fiber, as noted in one of the posts above.
If it's not good enough for what is essentially a high school game, should it be used in high-risk applications?
Quote from: GaryV on June 26, 2023, 08:09:06 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
I referee events for FIRST Robotics Competition. Many of the high school teams say they would not use that controller for their robot. They are just not reliable enough, considering other options that are available.
Quote
The problem with it is it makes one wonder what other cheap off-the-shelf components have been pressed into service to do things they weren't intended by the manufacturer to do.
And this point was brought up by the high schoolers as well.
If it's not good enough for what is essentially a high school game, should it be used in high-risk applications?
So our engineering experts include high school students, James Cameron.. Looks like a very representative list!
One of the Whistleblowers come forward on OceanGate's decision to run the submersible with Carbon Fiber.
Quote from: bing101 on June 26, 2023, 08:52:22 PM
One of the Whistleblowers come forward on OceanGate's decision.
😂
He shouldn't use that carbon fiber because nobody used it before!
Really great argument, I should say.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane? The amount of work that goes into certifying an airplane–|kalvado|'s negativity aside–is done for a reason: a critical failure while up in the air generally results in disaster. Likewise, undersea craft.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane? The amount of work that goes into certifying an airplane–|kalvado|'s negativity aside–is done for a reason: a critical failure while up in the air generally results in disaster. Likewise, undersea craft.
Well, you assume certification is a technical process. No, it is significantly bureaucratic process which may easily be counterproductive in technical terms.
An example which may be very telling:
Once upon a time, US FAA banned operation of a foreign-owned aircraft on an international flight after a sudden inspection. Reason for grounding: labels on some of the seatbelts were unreadable, hence aircraft is not certifyable....
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 10:56:02 AM
Well, you assume certification is a technical process. No, it is significantly bureaucratic process which may easily be counterproductive in technical terms.
Again, my good friend spends months at a time writing hundreds of pages of certification at Textron Aviation. It's a very technical process.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 11:25:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 10:56:02 AM
Well, you assume certification is a technical process. No, it is significantly bureaucratic process which may easily be counterproductive in technical terms.
Again, my good friend spends months at a time writing hundreds of pages of certification at Textron Aviation. It's a very technical process.
Technical process... :clap:
spends months at a time writing hundreds of pages.... :confused:
You see, that's the catch. Once there are hundreds pages of documents written based on hundreds more pages of other documents, things do become bureaucratic. And the actual reason for those to exist starts to vanish. Especially as certification is explicitly separated from original development...
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 11:46:06 AM
You see, that's the catch. Once there are hundreds pages of documents written based on hundreds more pages of other documents, things do become bureaucratic. And the actual reason for those to exist starts to vanish. Especially as certification is explicitly separated from original development...
Please explain in further detail.
He evaluates every component of an airplane model to ensure that each one meets or exceeds all safety standards; analyzes every system to ensure that, in case of component failure, entire systems don't fail; and writes up the hundreds-of-pages-long report that shows every detail of his analysis and shows all of his work. How is this not a very, very technical process? The bureaucracy is what gives him the project in the first place, it is what sets the deadline for the certification to be completed, but it is not what is actually involved in doing the certification itself. And yes, of course it's separate from original development: it's the finished product that you want to certify, after all, not a 'rough draft'.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane?
Yes. I don't see the problem. Shoot, my Atari 2600 joysticks are still totally functional after all these years.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 11:58:05 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 11:46:06 AM
You see, that's the catch. Once there are hundreds pages of documents written based on hundreds more pages of other documents, things do become bureaucratic. And the actual reason for those to exist starts to vanish. Especially as certification is explicitly separated from original development...
Please explain in further detail.
He evaluates every component of an airplane model to ensure that each one meets or exceeds all safety standards; analyzes every system to ensure that, in case of component failure, entire systems don't fail; and writes up the hundreds-of-pages-long report that shows every detail of his analysis and shows all of his work. How is this not a very, very technical process? The bureaucracy is what gives him the project in the first place, it is what sets the deadline for the certification to be completed, but it is not what is actually involved in doing the certification itself. And yes, of course it's separate from original development: it's the finished product that you want to certify, after all, not a 'rough draft'.
Is that his words or your words?
System analysis is definitely performed by the vendor. As far as I understand, only test data is available for certification, not the underlying information. That allows things like Toyota fiasco to go through - certification had no access to see the mess in the computer system design.
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:07:00 PM
Is that his words or your words?
Well, mine.
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:07:00 PM
Is that his words or your words?
System analysis is definitely performed by the vendor. As far as I understand, only test data is available for certification, not the underlying information. That allows things like Toyota fiasco to go through - certification had no access to see the mess in the computer system design.
How does that make it not technical?
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane?
Yes. I don't see the problem. Shoot, my Atari 2600 joysticks are still totally functional after all these years.
Joystick used to actually fly actual airplane:
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/ISoOh.jpg)
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane?
Yes. I don't see the problem. Shoot, my Atari 2600 joysticks are still totally functional after all these years.
You don't see any difference between (1) the FAA certifying a joystick to keep passengers alive in the air and (2) Atari certifying a joystick to keep a video game operational long enough for the consumer to not need a refund? I see a fundamental difference. Airplane components have to last dozens of times longer than the expected life of the aircraft. Video game components have to last however long the manufacturer thinks consumers will tolerate.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:13:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane?
Yes. I don't see the problem. Shoot, my Atari 2600 joysticks are still totally functional after all these years.
You don't see any difference between (1) the FAA certifying a joystick to keep passengers alive in the air and (2) Atari certifying a joystick to keep a video game operational long enough for the consumer to not need a refund? I see a fundamental difference. Airplane components have to last dozens of times longer than the expected life of the aircraft. Video game components have to last however long the manufacturer thinks consumers will tolerate.
Reference, please.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:13:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 12:02:05 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane?
Yes. I don't see the problem. Shoot, my Atari 2600 joysticks are still totally functional after all these years.
You don't see any difference between (1) the FAA certifying a joystick to keep passengers alive in the air and (2) Atari certifying a joystick to keep a video game operational long enough for the consumer to not need a refund? I see a fundamental difference. Airplane components have to last dozens of times longer than the expected life of the aircraft. Video game components have to last however long the manufacturer thinks consumers will tolerate.
Not really. My Atari's joysticks have lasted about 40 years and don't show any signs of slowing down. Good enough for me. Shoot, bona fide aircraft parts don't last that long nowadays. Saw a video where Heathrow had to replace the nose cone of a large airliner a few weeks ago...
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:16:59 PM
Reference, please.
Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft. I'm not in the industry myself.
What annoys me about this story is you have people shelling out a quarter mil to do something that's solely to impress their billionaire friends; so they can win Instagram for a day. And then we're expected to be all sad for them dying in the middle of their dick measuring contest? Pass.
Next news cycle, please.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 27, 2023, 12:33:54 PM
What annoys me about this story is you have people shelling out a quarter mil to do something that's solely to impress their billionaire friends; so they can win Instagram for a day. And then we're expected to be all sad for them dying in the middle of their dick measuring contest? Pass.
Only three of them were "tourists".
Whatever; they had some "guide", the dumbass owner, and some shit-ass silver spoon baby. They're still doing it for the attention to impress other billionaires. And that makes me not care about them at all.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:16:59 PM
Reference, please.
Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft. I'm not in the industry myself.
Let me put is so - if your friend thinks that way, they are a part of industry problem. Looks like engineering mentality at many places (aviation industry in particular) fell behind by decades in many aspects. 1e7 mtbf for a joystick? Unconditional reliability was the name of the game pre-WWII. Today, we are looking at building reliable systems out of unreliable components. Things like fault tolerance and redundancy are the name of the game.
Two examples:
1. Angle of attack gauge - one that triggered 737MAX crashes - has an mtbf of about 1e5 hours. In other words, average 737 has a total of 2 such failures over the service life. This is a critical failure, which disables one side of controls; other pilot has to take over.
2. Aircraft engines, which are very vital, have to be something like 40k hours MTBF for maximum overwater flight grade; I believe it is closer to 15-20k hours domestically. That is 10 in-flight shutdowns over aircraft service life for domestic 737...
Both of these are moderately annoying, but there is a fallback plan.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 27, 2023, 12:50:32 PM
Whatever; they had some "guide", the dumbass owner, and some shit-ass silver spoon baby. They're still doing it for the attention to impress other billionaires. And that makes me not care about them at all.
A better comparison, IMHO, is that there is a traffic fatality every 15 minutes and "malnutrition" death every hour in US. I believe "malnutrition" is a politically correct term for "starved to death" here.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 27, 2023, 12:33:54 PM
What annoys me about this story is you have people shelling out a quarter mil to do something that's solely to impress their billionaire friends; so they can win Instagram for a day. And then we're expected to be all sad for them dying in the middle of their dick measuring contest? Pass.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:47:31 PM
Only three of them were "tourists".
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 27, 2023, 12:50:32 PM
Whatever; they had some "guide", the dumbass owner, and some shit-ass silver spoon baby. They're still doing it for the attention to impress other billionaires. And that makes me not care about them at all.
That "some guide" was an officer in the French Navy for more than two decades. He was an expert in deep sea exploration, the recovery of sunken ships and aircraft, and the Titanic itself–appearing in more than one documentary about the latter. He piloted the first expedition to recover artifacts from the wreckage of the Titanic, helped run a mission to 3D-map the wreckage, and all in all made 35 dives to the site. He was no mere attention-seeking, Instagram-obsessed billionaire in a dick measuring contest, and his death is a tragic loss to the world of underwater exploration.
How are people still thinking this far in that this was just the "billionaires only" club killed on the Titan?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 01:22:12 PM
How are people still thinking this far in that this was just the "billionaires only" club killed on the Titan?
And how many believe that life is uncertain and take dessert first?
What are my chances to be killed in an accident during daily commute? More than zero...
Yeah but the sub guy wouldn't have been on there if wasn't for those attention whoring billionaires.
Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire. Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 01:46:00 PM
Last I checked the 19 year old himself wasn't a billionaire. Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?
Even if he wasn't slated to inherit his father's fortune, he had opportunities most of us can only dream of (see, e.g. Tucker Carlson, heir to the Swanson TV dinner fortune, who didn't see a dime of that money, but managed to become a bajillionaire with little work nevertheless).
Which is where I'm torn; yeah, the kid would probably never have had to worry about money in his life, but there's a strong chance his dad was a shitty one.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:16:59 PM
Reference, please.
Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft. I'm not in the industry myself.
No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 01:46:00 PM
Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire. Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?
According to the mother, she and her husband were originally slated to go together, and not the son because he wasn't an adult. But their plans ended up falling through due to the COVID-19 pandemic. By the time the new schedule date came around, the son had turned 18 and pleaded to go with his dad, so they exchanged her ticket for his.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:16:59 PM
Reference, please.
Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft. I'm not in the industry myself.
No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.
You misspelled "has some technical background"
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 02:20:39 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:16:59 PM
Reference, please.
Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft. I'm not in the industry myself.
No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.
You misspelled "has some technical background"
True that. There's plenty of "being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one" on this forum. Lord knows I'm guilty of it from time to time. But, if I expected anyone on here to legitimately call me out from a technical standpoint in matters of aircraft and avionics, it would be you.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 02:27:22 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 02:20:39 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2023, 12:16:59 PM
Reference, please.
Sorry, I'm just going off past conversations with my friend–which came up quite a bit following the 737 MAX investigation, especially considering he certifies Boeing craft. I'm not in the industry myself.
No need to apologize when the other party is being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one.
You misspelled "has some technical background"
True that. There's plenty of "being a condescending dick just for the sake of being one" on this forum. Lord knows I'm guilty of it from time to time. But, if I expected anyone on here to legitimately call me out from a technical standpoint in matters of aircraft and avionics, it would be you.
Thanks. If we ever meet, I owe you a beer.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 02:14:55 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 01:46:00 PM
Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire. Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?
According to the mother, she and her husband were originally slated to go together, and not the son because he wasn't an adult. But their plans ended up falling through due to the COVID-19 pandemic. By the time the new schedule date came around, the son had turned 18 and pleaded to go with his dad, so they exchanged her ticket for his.
Source? I haven't seen that particular angle yet on the 19 year old yet.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 01:53:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 01:46:00 PM
Last I checked the 19 year old himself wasn't a billionaire. Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?
Even if he wasn't slated to inherit his father's fortune, he had opportunities most of us can only dream of (see, e.g. Tucker Carlson, heir to the Swanson TV dinner fortune, who didn't see a dime of that money, but managed to become a bajillionaire with little work nevertheless).
Which is where I'm torn; yeah, the kid would probably never have had to worry about money in his life, but there's a strong chance his dad was a shitty one.
The truth is that you really never know. My family wasn't "rich" growing up but my dad was still making over 200k in the early 1990s. Pretty much everyone who knew our family would rub it in my face about how "lucky" I was because my parents carried themselves like people at that income level.
Thing was that nobody considered how horrible my dad was with money. He spent every last cent he made on himself, my mom made the mistake in never questioning him. When he died there was no inheritance to speak of.
I even had to wait to start college after becoming an adult because I had to pay for it with my own funds or get a student loan. Granted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 02:47:08 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 02:14:55 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 01:46:00 PM
Last I checked the 19 year old himself (who by reports didn't want to be on the sub) wasn't a billionaire. Unless you're assuming he was in line for inheritance or something?
According to the mother, she and her husband were originally slated to go together, and not the son because he wasn't an adult. But their plans ended up falling through due to the COVID-19 pandemic. By the time the new schedule date came around, the son had turned 18 and pleaded to go with his dad, so they exchanged her ticket for his.
Source? I haven't seen that particular angle yet on the 19 year old yet.
It just came out yesterday. I heard it on NPR in the car. The son wanted to set a Guinness world record for solving a Rubik's cube at the wreckage site.
Here are some links:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-dawood-shahzada-suleman-titanic-b2364742.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66015851
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html
https://www.foxnews.com/world/teen-titanic-submarine-passenger-aimed-set-rubiks-cube-world-record-dive-mom-says
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 02:53:13 PMGranted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.
Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.
One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid." Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 04:02:07 PM
Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.
As I said earlier, I've known someone whose net worth was around a billion dollars, and he didn't make his money that way either.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 02:53:13 PMGranted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.
Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.
One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid." Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.
Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 26, 2023, 06:50:15 PM
In isolation, I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with using a video game controller for something that isn't a video game. After all, it's a bunch of buttons, switches, and joysticks in a familiar-enough arrangement that most people would be instantly comfortable with using it. If I wanted to, say, build a homemade drone to take aerial pictures, using a video game controller as a base would make more sense than trying to build a bespoke controller.
Again, making the comparison between undersea craft and aircraft: would you board an airplane if you knew the pilot was using a video game controller to fly the plane? The amount of work that goes into certifying an airplane–|kalvado|'s negativity aside–is done for a reason: a critical failure while up in the air generally results in disaster. Likewise, undersea craft.
I wouldn't, because like I said, that decision would indicate to me that other corners had been cut in the design and maintenance of the craft.
However, if it were something not quite as safety-critical, like, say, someone had a car with a keyless entry fob stopped working, so they rigged up an unused game controller as a replacement, I'd probably think that was pretty neat.
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 02:53:13 PMGranted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.
Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.
One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid." Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.
Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...
I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 02:53:13 PMGranted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.
Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.
One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid." Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.
Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...
I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.
Paralegals get treated poorly, similar to factory workers.
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 10:40:42 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 02:53:13 PMGranted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.
Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.
One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid." Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.
Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...
I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.
Paralegals get treated poorly, similar to factory workers.
In terms of universal experiences, being "treated poorly" as a paralegal meant dealing with short tempers and having to cancel plans for a night on the town at the last minute because you're needed at work. However, there was never a time where I had to worry about my own job security if I went to take a piss break. And the firm I worked for that was the absolute worst in terms of work/life balance and general boundaries was the one where I was making about $110K/year, in 2008 dollars, so I wouldn't say I wasn't being adequately compensated.
I know someone who recently became a millionaire overnight. Her husband's father had been really into the stock market for years, had built up a portfolio worth millions, and then divided it up amongst his children as an inheritance. This person and her husband therefore unexpectedly had roughly a million dollars' worth of stocks dropped in their lap. They paid off their car and are now in the process of buying a house.
Their million bucks say absolutely nothing about their moral character. They didn't earn it through dishonest or unethical means. And the fact that his father was a multimillionaire doesn't speak to any douchebag-iness on his part: he merely became successful at trading stocks. Just because someone has millions of dollars, that doesn't automatically mean he's a shady person.
And I don't see why there's some huge divide between millionaire and billionaire, where it's OK to assume the worst of someone on the other side of that line. The billionaire family that I used to know were Ron and Melissa Herschend (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschend_Family_Entertainment) (Ron passed away a few years ago but I already hadn't seen them in probably a decade by that point), who at the time operated Silver Dollar City among other attractions. His father was Jack Herschend, co-founder of Silver Dollar City. My introduction to them was through my wife, whose family was friends with them; their youngest daughter attended the daycare where my wife-to-be worked, and my wife's best friend later worked as their nanny. At that time, Jack Herschend spent only half of his time with business matters, spending the other half working with charity organizations. One could also occasionally see him doing landscape work along Branson's city streets, for free, just because he enjoyed putting his green thumb to good use; this was not publicized at all, it was just something he liked to do, and I think only people who knew him personally were even aware he did so. In a city dominated by seasonal work, Jack claimed that his biggest enjoyment came from providing year-round work to people whenever possible. I never met Jack, but Ron (his son) and Melissa never once made me, a lowly blue-collar guy who had arrived on a Greyhound bus, feel anything but welcome in their home–a million-dollar home that sits on a 22-acre lot, where I've eaten pizza and birthday cake, surrounded by kids' toys strewn on the floor, while Top Gun played on the TV. I have fond memories of teaching their youngest daughter, who was our flower girl, to play a golf card game during the down-times of our wedding rehearsal. They're just people. People who happen to be worth a whole lot of money because their family business has been very successful.
Quote from: kphoger on June 27, 2023, 03:01:31 PM
The son wanted to set a Guinness world record for solving a Rubik's cube at the wreckage site.
Here are some links:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/christine-dawood-shahzada-suleman-titanic-b2364742.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66015851
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/26/world/christine-dawood-interview-titan-submersible-scli-intl/index.html
https://www.foxnews.com/world/teen-titanic-submarine-passenger-aimed-set-rubiks-cube-world-record-dive-mom-says
Blech. See that's exactly what I'm talking about: social media attention whoring by cash-chuckers. Why should I have any sympathy here?
These aren't some bold explorers pushing the boundaries of human knowledge and innovation; they're shmucks shelling out a lot of cash to impress people.
All those resources at his disposal as billionaire's nepo-baby, and he was gonna use them to fuck around with a Rubik's cube? Yeah no big loss there, clearly.
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 28, 2023, 09:55:52 AM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 10:40:42 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 09:19:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 27, 2023, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 27, 2023, 04:02:07 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 27, 2023, 02:53:13 PMGranted there is a substantial difference between 200k annually and billions of dollars in money/equity.
Yes, and I cannot possibly overstate the fact that my ire is directed at billionaires. I have several friends who have a net worth of over 1 million and/or make several million dollars a year, because they're lawyers and salaries are way too high, and none of them made their money by forcing factory employees to piss in bottles.
One of them, I just assumed he was born with a silver spoon up his ass because his father was a lawyer and worked in the Nixon Administration, and he was from Palm Springs, and then I asked him why he didn't get braces until he was an adult, and he said "because we didn't have money for it when I was a kid." Which was surprising, since I had the most middle-ass middle-class upbringing and my brother and I both got orthodontia when we were teenagers.
Evidently, you haven't heard of paralegals or legal assistants or the myriad of support staff lawyers depend on...
I was a paralegal for a decade. I'm not sure what this relates to, though.
Paralegals get treated poorly, similar to factory workers.
In terms of universal experiences, being "treated poorly" as a paralegal meant dealing with short tempers and having to cancel plans for a night on the town at the last minute because you're needed at work. However, there was never a time where I had to worry about my own job security if I went to take a piss break. And the firm I worked for that was the absolute worst in terms of work/life balance and general boundaries was the one where I was making about $110K/year, in 2008 dollars, so I wouldn't say I wasn't being adequately compensated.
I was a legal assistant/paralegal for a couple of years. Yeah, my compensation wasn't anywhere close to yours (very early 2000s).
"Not as exploited" is kind of a strange take. :D
Pfft. We're all scum.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 28, 2023, 03:18:45 PM
All those resources at his disposal as billionaire's nepo-baby, and he was gonna use them to fuck around with a Rubik's cube? Yeah no big loss there, clearly.
How else was he planning to spend his money, after returning from the trip? I bet you don't even know. You just assume that he was going to waste it frivolously or use it to exploit the poor working man or whatever. But you don't know.
A 2023 Acura MDX costs around $50,000. A 2014 Honda Pilot costs half that. Do you likewise despise everyone who chooses to buy the Acura rather than donating the other $25,000 to charity? What was the most recent purchase
you made that could have gone to feed a starving family instead?
Quote from: Rothman on June 28, 2023, 03:26:13 PM
Pfft. We're all scum.
I mean, that's more or less is the reality. All us aren't as special as we believe on any income level.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 28, 2023, 03:41:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 28, 2023, 03:26:13 PM
Pfft. We're all scum.
I mean, that's more or less is the reality. All us aren't as special as we believe on any income level.
Yes, but it makes us feel better about ourselves to belittle others. After all, if we didn't villainize rich people, then we might have to own up to our own scuminess instead.
Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 03:52:12 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 28, 2023, 03:41:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 28, 2023, 03:26:13 PM
Pfft. We're all scum.
I mean, that's more or less is the reality. All us aren't as special as we believe on any income level.
Yes, but it makes us feel better about ourselves to belittle others. After all, if we didn't villainize rich people, then we might have to own up to our own scuminess instead.
The hardest place to point a finger of accountability or accusation is right back at yourself. Human ego instinctively tries to preserve itself in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Quote from: Rothman on June 28, 2023, 03:25:14 PMI was a legal assistant/paralegal for a couple of years. Yeah, my compensation wasn't anywhere close to yours (very early 2000s).
This was with 5 years' experience, at a boutique firm in Midtown Manhattan, and...*shrug* I guess they thought they needed me so much, they needed to throw money at me.
But yeah, my starting salary was in the low 30s. Plus overtime, natch.
Quote from: Rothman on June 28, 2023, 03:25:14 PM"Not as exploited" is kind of a strange take. :D
Bottom line, I had a lot (A LOT) of shitty days at work, but I never, for a second, thought I was working harder than the people who came to clean my office every night. I'd put factory workers in that same bucket.
Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 10:15:04 AM
And I don't see why there's some huge divide between millionaire and billionaire, where it's OK to assume the worst of someone on the other side of that line.
This probably means that you don't have a firm mental grasp of the divide between the values "million" and "billion". Which isn't dragging you or anything; the human brain has an inherent problem with that, so most people don't.
This may be easier to illustrate if we use some unit other than an abstract dollar. This is essentially a geography forum, so let's use distance. One million feet is 189 miles. That's roughly the distance from Wichita, Kansas to Kansas City (well, Overland Park) or Norman, Oklahoma.
One billion feet is 189,394 miles. That's roughly the distance you'd travel if you encircled the entire Earth at the Equator seven and a half times.
Do you see the divide between a millionaire and a billionaire now?
^^ I've seen some people refer a billion as a "thousand million".
I guess for me I don't really care how much money someone I don't know has? Worrying about people I'll never interact with and what they have financially just seems excess mental baggage.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 28, 2023, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2023, 10:15:04 AM
And I don't see why there's some huge divide between millionaire and billionaire, where it's OK to assume the worst of someone on the other side of that line.
This probably means that you don't have a firm mental grasp of the divide between the values "million" and "billion". Which isn't dragging you or anything; the human brain has an inherent problem with that, so most people don't.
This may be easier to illustrate if we use some unit other than an abstract dollar. This is essentially a geography forum, so let's use distance. One million feet is 189 miles. That's roughly the distance from Wichita, Kansas to Kansas City (well, Overland Park) or Norman, Oklahoma.
One billion feet is 189,394 miles. That's roughly the distance you'd travel if you encircled the entire Earth at the Equator seven and a half times.
Do you see the divide between a millionaire and a billionaire now?
I'm quite aware of the difference between a million and a billion. It's a magnitude of 1000–the same magnitude as the difference between a thousand and a million.
And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire? I don't see how the distance between Wichita and Overland Park has anything to do with that. As I've said more than once now, I've personally known a couple whose family net worth was at least a billion dollars, and I don't think I've run across a single shred of scandal or unethical behavior about them–no matter how many feet long the Equator is.
Maybe you don't have a firm mental grasp of the divide between the values "thousand" and "million". Which isn't dragging you or anything. This is essentially a roadgeek forum, so let's use roads. One thousand inches is just over 83 feet. That's roughly the width of I-35 where it crosses under NE16th Street in Oklahoma City, and you could probably backwards-walk it in less than 30 seconds. One million inches is about 15¾ miles. That's roughly the same distance as it is from your house to the Aspen Walk Apartments, and it would probably take you eight hours to backwards-walk it.
Do you see the divide between living paycheck to paycheck and being a millionaire now?
(And just to reiterate, of the people I currently know, some of the ones with a thousand dollars to their name are a lot scummier than the ones with a million dollars to their name.)
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 10:02:27 AM
And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?
If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life. Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.
Quote from: kalvado on June 29, 2023, 10:43:53 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 10:02:27 AM
And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?
If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life. Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.
So you say. The only billionaire I've personally known had a family business that owns amusement parks, theaters, water parks, cabins and and resorts and campgrounds, aquariums, and other tourist attractions. Some those ventures were started from scratch, while others were acquired over the years. I don't see how that's automatically any more unethical than, say, a car wash owner expanding his brand across the city.
I'm finding this numerical calculus for somehow equating the morality of a person attached financial wealth fascinating. I swear the way this has been quantified is one of the things only the road community could come up with.
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 29, 2023, 10:43:53 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 10:02:27 AM
And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?
If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life. Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.
So you say. The only billionaire I've personally known had a family business that owns amusement parks, theaters, water parks, cabins and and resorts and campgrounds, aquariums, and other tourist attractions. Some those ventures were started from scratch, while others were acquired over the years. I don't see how that's automatically any more unethical than, say, a car wash owner expanding his brand across the city.
I am not saying it is unethical. All I am saying that business owner vs employees is a relation where people see the potential of ethics issues. The rest of the discussion can be found in Karl Marx texts.
Please note that I am not taking any position in that statement beyond pointing out where those issues may originate.
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 29, 2023, 10:43:53 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 10:02:27 AM
And how, exactly, does that mean every billionaire can safely be assumed to be an unethical sleazeball, while the same assumption cannot safely be made about every millionaire?
If you will, many of us will go through $1M over the lifetime - 30 years at $33.3k/year isn't too much. With ~2000 hours a year, that is $17 per hour over working life. Things like retirement savings or homes can easily be in $100's K. I expect $1M total assets for a family would be fairly common.
$1B, on the same math, means more than $10K per hour. Which is IMHO impossible without making something that may be reproduced cheaply and distributed widely - like some IP (patents royalty, music, software) or by managing - and taking over - work of many other people. Later is not unethical per se, but definitely includes "this is how much I take, and this is how much I give my workers" part.
So you say. The only billionaire I've personally known had a family business that owns amusement parks, theaters, water parks, cabins and and resorts and campgrounds, aquariums, and other tourist attractions. Some those ventures were started from scratch, while others were acquired over the years. I don't see how that's automatically any more unethical than, say, a car wash owner expanding his brand across the city.
What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.
I don't really have an opinion as it's a very complicated issue, but I think some people don't understand what "billionaire" means. It doesn't mean that you just have 10 figures sitting around in bank accounts.
Quote from: thspfc on June 29, 2023, 03:43:23 PM
What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.
Let's pretend for a moment that these billionaire CEOs/investors are actually the ones in charge of setting employee wages. I haven't heard anyone on here saying that he does an actual evaluation of their employee's wages to see if they're satisfactory. Instead, they seem to simply assume the employees of every company that's run by a billionaire are being paid less than they deserve. It's an obstinate refusal to see anyone whose wealth is above a certain threshold as an individual, instead stereotyping him or her after whatever caricature of a rich person they've got in their mind.
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 04:03:14 PM
Quote from: thspfc on June 29, 2023, 03:43:23 PM
What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.
Let's pretend for a moment that these billionaire CEOs/investors are actually the ones in charge of setting employee wages. I haven't heard anyone on here saying that he does an actual evaluation of their employee's wages to see if they're satisfactory. Instead, they seem to simply assume the employees of every company that's run by a billionaire are being paid less than they deserve. It's an obstinate refusal to see anyone whose wealth is above a certain threshold as an individual, instead stereotyping him or her after whatever caricature of a rich person they've got in their mind.
Or, to paraphrase Mr. Garrison from South Park, "we treat billionaires better because they're better people."
Quote from: abefroman329 on June 29, 2023, 04:15:49 PM
Or, to paraphrase Mr. Garrison from South Park, "we treat billionaires better because they're better people."
It's actually the opposite: "we're glad when billionaires die because they're shitty people."
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.
Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.
Quote from: kphoger on June 29, 2023, 04:03:14 PM
Quote from: thspfc on June 29, 2023, 03:43:23 PM
What the anti-billionaire crowd is getting at is how billionaire CEOs/investors have copious amounts of money, yet arguably don't pay their employees enough. In that regard, it doesn't really matter how they made their money - they're still earning an insane amount of money compared to their subordinates.
Let's pretend for a moment that these billionaire CEOs/investors are actually the ones in charge of setting employee wages. I haven't heard anyone on here saying that he does an actual evaluation of their employee's wages to see if they're satisfactory. Instead, they seem to simply assume the employees of every company that's run by a billionaire are being paid less than they deserve. It's an obstinate refusal to see anyone whose wealth is above a certain threshold as an individual, instead stereotyping him or her after whatever caricature of a rich person they've got in their mind.
Let us take a moment to appreciate our benevolent overlords. :D
Quote from: jgb191 on June 29, 2023, 08:41:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.
Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.
Mine convinced me buying a PT Cruiser was a good idea.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 29, 2023, 11:08:07 PM
Quote from: jgb191 on June 29, 2023, 08:41:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.
Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.
Mine convinced me buying a PT Cruiser was a good idea.
Funny how the HHR despite being a copy of the PT has come out of that era somewhat cleanly remembered.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 29, 2023, 11:21:25 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 29, 2023, 11:08:07 PM
Quote from: jgb191 on June 29, 2023, 08:41:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.
Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.
Mine convinced me buying a PT Cruiser was a good idea.
Funny how the HHR despite being a copy of the PT has come out of that era somewhat cleanly remembered.
Dad traded his own PT Cruiser (black, with purple flames) for an orange HHR.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 29, 2023, 11:21:25 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 29, 2023, 11:08:07 PM
Quote from: jgb191 on June 29, 2023, 08:41:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
It sucks that he didn't learn at a younger age that doing what your dad says isn't always a great idea.
Yeah I wish I had learn that lesson sooner myself.....but that's for whole 'nother story entirely so I'll just leave it at that.
Mine convinced me buying a PT Cruiser was a good idea.
Funny how the HHR despite being a copy of the PT has come out of that era somewhat cleanly remembered.
Not by me - I remember both cars being so shitty, they made up a good chunk of rental agencies' fleets for years.
The one HHR model that always intrigued me was the SS panel van. That's something that shouldn't exist but does.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 30, 2023, 09:38:09 AM
The one HHR model that always intrigued me was the SS panel van. That's something that shouldn't exist but does.
Now that you mention it, yeah, wth.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 30, 2023, 09:38:09 AM
The one HHR model that always intrigued me was the SS panel van. That's something that shouldn't exist but does.
Is that the one that doesn't have any back windows? That's the one my dad has.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 30, 2023, 08:07:06 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 30, 2023, 09:38:09 AM
The one HHR model that always intrigued me was the SS panel van. That's something that shouldn't exist but does.
Is that the one that doesn't have any back windows? That's the one my dad has.
Yes, but with the 2.0 LNF Ecotech Turbo.
Well, this article by the New Yorker (https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen?mbid=social_twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_brand=tny&utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=twitter) is something else. It seems the Rubik's Cube thing was probably a way for the 19 year old to rationalize going on the dive. But holy shit what a clusterfuck this whole process was from beginning to end.
It was literally this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8-2-eMdWrM