OceanGate Titan submersible vehicle and crew presumed lost near Titanic wreckage

[jakeroot]

As they say, "pioneers get the arrows..."

These are not pioneers. William Beebe and Jacques Piccard indeed were, and they both died at pretty respectable age  in bed.
Adventure seekers is a better word.

It's just a proverb to explain why those who push the boundaries of...anything...are usually the ones to suffer the consequences of that boundary-pushing.

[Billy F 1988]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).

I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd.  Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair.  Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?

The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.

Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.

Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.

Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.

[kphoger]

These are not pioneers. William Beebe and Jacques Piccard indeed were, and they both died at pretty respectable age  in bed.
Adventure seekers is a better word.

Actually, the two highlighted below seem rather pioneer-like to me.  Certainly more so than your average joe.

Hamish Harding - chairman of Action Aviation, an explorer by nature who broke the Guinness world record for the fastest flight around both the Earth's poles in 2019.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet - retired French Navy commander and led the first recovery dive to the Titanic wreckage in 1987. He also completed 37 dives in a submersible to the Titanic shipwreck over the course of his career.

[kalvado]

These are not pioneers. William Beebe and Jacques Piccard indeed were, and they both died at pretty respectable age  in bed.
Adventure seekers is a better word.

Actually, the two highlighted below seem rather pioneer-like to me.  Certainly more so than your average joe.

Hamish Harding - chairman of Action Aviation, an explorer by nature who broke the Guinness world record for the fastest flight around both the Earth's poles in 2019.

Paul-Henri Nargeolet - retired French Navy commander and led the first recovery dive to the Titanic wreckage in 1987. He also completed 37 dives in a submersible to the Titanic shipwreck over the course of his career.

Nah.
I would say there was one person there who was really pushing real limits.. Feel free to disagree.

[mgk920]

Another reason to only trust people who got their positions due to their merit and experience in positions of life safety.

Mike

[Billy F 1988]

It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.

Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.

My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.

[kalvado]

It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.

Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.

My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.

So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?

[Rothman]

Regarding the controller...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a44286811/titan-submersible-video-game-controller/

[Max Rockatansky]

I vaguely remember something about a Navy submarine using an Xbox controller before this whole OceanGate incident.  From what I recall the reason an Xbox controller was used was due to the simplicity and easy learning curve.  The takeaway I had was that simple wasn't necessarily "bad design."  As silly as the Logitech controller seems, it likely didn't contribute in any way to a hull breach. 

[kalvado]

I vaguely remember something about a Navy submarine using an Xbox controller before this whole OceanGate incident.  From what I recall the reason an Xbox controller was used was due to the simplicity and easy learning curve.  The takeaway I had was that simple wasn't necessarily "bad design."  As silly as the Logitech controller seems, it likely didn't contribute in any way to a hull breach.

Simple  is definitely an advantage in many cases. I don't know how reliable those controllers are, though, so that may be a sticking point.

[Billy F 1988]

It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.

Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.

My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.

So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?

Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels. In one of the interviews I watched on YouTube, Cameron was heavily not in favor of the wound filament composite body of the sub that was lost last Thursday. If you took a soda can wrapped in carbon fiber or wound filament down a deep lake for example, there will come a point to where it will eventually break. If you wrap the same can in the conventional steel cladding or other conventional composite metals, said can would not break. This sub didn't break right away, but the possibility was extremely likely, not that Stockton Rush ever gave a damn about it right away, but still, if a conventional steel composite was used, there would have been pressure exerted on the vessel, but not to the point of imploding. You'd have to lay in pretty hard to implode a steel composite sub. The U.S.S. Montana for example could go down to 1.5 miles below the surface given a more dynamic pressure system to keep the vessel from breaking, but only because it's bigger and it's a commissioned naval vehicle, not a private deep dive vessel. Using carbon fiber or wound filament composite skin is a sure one-way ticket to a disaster like this one in as little as a dozen or so dives. Only cheapskates would dare use carbon fiber or wound filament just to get the job done, not create a safety chamber. Rush got cheap and look at what his flimsy design got him. A death sentence two miles below the ocean surface.

[kalvado]

It now bogs my mind that co-founder Guillermo Söhnlein is siding with the "research value of expeditions to Titanic following the loss of the Titan sub" when the company clearly knew they were not certified for these deep dives. James Cameron, the director of the Titanic film, made it very clear in interviews with other networks following the discovery of the imploded vessel and loss of crew. THERE IS NO KIND OF VALUE! PERIOD! None that I can think of. As I said before, because of the magnitude of the situation at hand, OceanGate, quite frankly in my own view, should be brought up before the NTSB or some other investigative body and be prosecuted. This should never have happened to begin with if all parties knew the design was potentially faulty and the conduct of the CEO was not conducive to the overall safety of the vessel and those occupying the vessel.

Moreover, primitive control systems like touch screens and game controllers, not to mention construction pipes as ballast, should NEVER have been used. The composite wound filament/carbon fiber construction Cameron described is not even meant for deep dives and should never have been the main element used for the body of the sub.

My final conclusion is that OceanGate should be stood before a hard hitting investigative body, whether NTSB does so, or some other entity, I don't have a specific preference one way or another, but I'd love for some kind of investigative body to just grill the hell out of OceanGate's entire group and break them down so much to a point where they just simply give up, throw the white flag and call it quits right then and there.

So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?

Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels. In one of the interviews I watched on YouTube, Cameron was heavily not in favor of the wound filament composite body of the sub that was lost last Thursday. If you took a soda can wrapped in carbon fiber or wound filament down a deep lake for example, there will come a point to where it will eventually break. If you wrap the same can in the conventional steel cladding or other conventional composite metals, said can would not break. This sub didn't break right away, but the possibility was extremely likely, not that Stockton Rush ever gave a damn about it right away, but still, if a conventional steel composite was used, there would have been pressure exerted on the vessel, but not to the point of imploding. You'd have to lay in pretty hard to implode a steel composite sub. The U.S.S. Montana for example could go down to 1.5 miles below the surface given a more dynamic pressure system to keep the vessel from breaking, but only because it's bigger and it's a commissioned naval vehicle, not a private deep dive vessel. Using carbon fiber or wound filament composite skin is a sure one-way ticket to a disaster like this one in as little as a dozen or so dives. Only cheapskates would dare use carbon fiber or wound filament just to get the job done, not create a safety chamber. Rush got cheap and look at what his flimsy design got him. A death sentence two miles below the ocean surface.

Cameron as a source of engineering knowledge must be real fun to watch.
Somehow there are carbon fiber planes flying these days, for example
I hoped to hear something about directional strength under compressive load, that is something not obvious for me. Steel - or any metal, actually - being poor material choice for external pressure vessels is something well known for ages . It's just about limited choices.

[roadman65]

The latest report is that the sub is been discovered as wreckage as it's believed to have imploded due to structural issues.

They're going to review the last transmission that took place between the Titan and the mother ship.

[kalvado]

I assume everyone saw one of these (numerous) videos; yet - this is how steel vessel implodes under 1 atmosphere load:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz95_VvTxZM

[LilianaUwU]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).

I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd.  Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair.  Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?

The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.

Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.

Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.

Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.

They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.

[kalvado]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).

I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd.  Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair.  Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?

The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.

Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.

Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.

Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.

They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.

And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!

[kalvado]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).

I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd.  Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair.  Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?

The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.

Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.

Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.

Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.

They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.

And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!

Explain how Columbus' voyage and the Titan's "voyage"  are even remotely comparable.

Both were heading for fame and money. Both were pretty risky endeavors.

[Rothman]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).

I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd.  Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair.  Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?

The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.

Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.

Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.

Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.

They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.

And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!

Explain how Columbus' voyage and the Titan's "voyage"  are even remotely comparable.

Both were heading for fame and money. Both were pretty risky endeavors.

Heh.  Talk about the pendulum swinging.  I didn't think Columbus and OceanGate were an apt comparison (tourism versus exploration), but when thspfc said they weren't "remotely comparable," that's also silly.

[kalvado]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

One of the people on board was the 19-year-old son of another passenger, who not only did not want to go, but he was terrified and talked about being scared, but ultimately he went because it was important to his father (and it was Father's Day).

I find the presumption that the four billionaire adults were default assholes by larger society to be odd.  Perhaps they are, but I've never heard of any of the four before this whole affair.  Does anyone have an actual synopsis on the four adults involved to make a determination on their character?

The CEO, who was one of the four billionaires on the sub, said safety wasn't important back in 2018 when an inspector raised concerns.

Sadly, the CEO is among the five who are presumed lost.

Boohoo, a billionaire CEO who laughed at the safety of his submarine died in his submarine. So sad.

Um, yeah. That's a BIIIIG boohoo. They should never have launched the sub to begin with. Quite frankly, I think OceanGate needs to be prosecuted.

They're not gonna give you the billions they left behind.

And while we at this... Columbus should have never tried that risky voyage!

Explain how Columbus' voyage and the Titan's "voyage"  are even remotely comparable.

Both were heading for fame and money. Both were pretty risky endeavors.

Heh.  Talk about the pendulum swinging.  I didn't think Columbus and OceanGate were an apt comparison (tourism versus exploration), but when thspfc said they weren't "remotely comparable," that's also silly.

If you think about it, there is not much of frontier left to push. One can go to Everest or North Pole commercially. South Pole has a long term base. Antarctic highland may be difficult, but largely meaningless.
Underwater and space are two major ways left. And, pure imho, space may never deliver as promised.

As for exploration... I thought gold and spice were two things to drive the age of discovery, exploration being a tool, if that.

[roadman65]

Space May never get the chance as there is still all those theories or prophecies that a major disaster lurks us before the twenty thirties come about.

Who knows that’s why I think about today only as if I worry about tomorrow it just causes needless panic as many experts have been wrong and too many claiming they know the future in the past that were nowhere near right today.

[Max Rockatansky]

Space May never get the chance as there is still all those theories or prophecies that a major disaster lurks us before the twenty thirties come about.

Who knows that's why I think about today only as if I worry about tomorrow it just causes needless panic as many experts have been wrong and too many claiming they know the future in the past that were nowhere near right today.

There has always been doomsday sayers.  The problem with space is the distances involve time that extends way beyond human scales.  Unless some sort of viable way to bypass the Speed of Light like folding spacetime, we aren't likely to make it far into the cosmos.

[Max Rockatansky]

On Megaprojects today:

[kalvado]

On Megaprojects today:

Draining off negativity and finger-pointing "look, they died!".. there is very little left actually.
After any disaster, there will be people who said "I told you so!". They are always there, sometimes they are right, often they are wrong. If using a simple controller is the worst incriminating thing, I would say things were in a good shape actually.
I wonder if investigation would bring up something. For one, navy will want to know composite failure mode, so  there may be something to learn.
In other news, see Challenger space shuttle, Boeing MCAS on latest 737, and Toyota uncommanded acceleration as "you must be joking!" class of failures. Of those 3, only qualifies as "cutting corners in pushing the boundary"

[kphoger]

Simple is definitely an advantage in many cases. I don't know how reliable those controllers are, though, so that may be a sticking point.

The bolded part is key.  Nobody seems to have known how reliable any part of it was.

A good friend of mine certifies aircraft for a living.  He made the comparison, while we were talking last night, between aircraft and submarine craft:  in either case, a critical failure during operation is a Very Bad Thing.  If something goes very wrong up in the sky or under the sea, then you can pretty much count on a catastrophic outcome.  He pointed out that, at his job, he even has to certify the interior lighting in every airplane–because you wouldn't want an airplane's interior light to develop brittle wiring and then eventually start a fire at 5000 feet elevation.

So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?

Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels.

Cameron as a source of engineering knowledge must be real fun to watch.
Somehow there are carbon fiber planes flying these days, for example

Allow me to repeat the conversation I had last night with that same friend, who is literally an engineer whose job every day is to certify airplanes:

– me:  The craft had already done multiple dives before this incident.
– him:  That's the problem.

[kalvado]

Simple is definitely an advantage in many cases. I don't know how reliable those controllers are, though, so that may be a sticking point.

The bolded part is key.  Nobody seems to have known how reliable any part of it was.

A good friend of mine certifies aircraft for a living.  He made the comparison, while we were talking last night, between aircraft and submarine craft:  in either case, a critical failure during operation is a Very Bad Thing.  If something goes very wrong up in the sky or under the sea, then you can pretty much count on a catastrophic outcome.  He pointed out that, at his job, he even has to certify the interior lighting in every airplane–because you wouldn't want an airplane's interior light to develop brittle wiring and then eventually start a fire at 5000 feet elevation.

So what's wrong with carbon fiber pressure vessel?

Degradation over a shorter lifespan than steel clad vessels. Look up James Cameron's recent interviews. You'll see why thousands like him are not in favor of carbon fiber clad vessels.

Cameron as a source of engineering knowledge must be real fun to watch.
Somehow there are carbon fiber planes flying these days, for example

Allow me to repeat the conversation I had last night with that same friend, who is literally an engineer whose job every day is to certify airplanes:

– me:  The craft had already done multiple dives before this incident.
– him:  That's the problem.

(A bit of negativity about certification in general, and FAA in particular is self censored)
With that - would controller failure be a catastrophic event? Any  fallbacks?
My expectation is that was a USB device connected to control PC. So any other PC control - mouse, keyboard, touchscreen - are possible fallback options, maybe for reduced functionality. Not to mention "ballast drop on battery run out" fail-safe mode implied overall.