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From CNN:

All-black outfits, hoodies, Crocs, cell phones and mirrors. Some students are returning to school with new bans in effect

QuoteIt's a new school year – and with a new school year comes new rules.

Cell phone bans, dress code changes – in some cases banning hoodies and all-black clothing – and even the removal of mirrors from school bathrooms are among the changes schools across America are making in the name of safety and better student engagement.

Officials often cite concerns for students' physical or mental health as reasons for the new standards. But the rules – and their enforcement – aren't always cut-and-dried.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2vp)

My thoughts on this is that a school's primary mission is to educate the children and provide them with the skills to be self-sufficient adults and contributing members of society.  As such, keeping the kids away from distractions is generally a good idea.

Cell phones? While I'm not a parent, I can understand the kids having a cell phone considering that the telephone companies have dropped pay phone service and letting third party providers handle that service. This has resulted in pay phones disappearing from our society. Having the kids put the phones in shielded pouches during the school day is a good idea. If the parent needs to get in touch with their child, they can call the school office and leave a message.

As for dress codes... again good idea.

Maybe some public schools could adopt some school uniforms like some private schools or having uniforms like the school uniforms of Japan then we see often in various animes.


And it would be interesting to see pay phones coming back.

"Meantime, in El Paso, Texas, students at one middle school are encouraged to pick from lighter parts of the color wheel as they plan their outfits for the school day. Charles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

IMO, dress codes that get too specific like "jeans with no holes above the knees" are almost always terrible. Cover your body parts and don't wear shirts with indecent sayings on them. That's the only dress code I had, and pretty much the only one my kids had, and they were all fine.

I don't understand the removal of bathroom mirrors, either. Some people like to do touchups throughout the day, such as rinsing sweat off their face, especially if they know they won't be home for a while to take a shower. Or fixing up their hair during lunch or any other kind of break if it's gotten a little messed up.

Quote from: Amaury on September 03, 2024, 06:16:09 PMI don't understand the removal of bathroom mirrors, either. Some people like to do touchups throughout the day, such as rinsing sweat off their face, especially if they know they won't be home for a while to take a shower. Or fixing up their hair during lunch or any other kind of break if it's gotten a little messed up.

Imagine having food stuck in your teeth and not being able to see it, yet enduring the ass-kicking from a bully for it because that's what school is all about, all because it allegedly helped someone's self-esteem.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 03, 2024, 05:04:38 PM"Meantime, in El Paso, Texas, students at one middle school are encouraged to pick from lighter parts of the color wheel as they plan their outfits for the school day. Charles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

It's from Texas, so no shit it's gonna be fucking stupid.

I find the anti-cell phone stuff to be a bit much.  Are teachers not allowed to deal with phone usage in class or something?  I would mandate that all phones be on silent during the school day and ban usage in class with a "three strikes" system.  First offense, you get told to stop.  Second one, your phone gets confiscated for the rest of the day.  Third, and then we go with the pouch.  Shouldn't be hard to keep track of with the electronic attendance/class management software that's been in use for 20+ years now.  It's especially ridiculous given that schools are giving kids Chromebooks these days, leading them to post on sites like this one when they should be paying attention in class.

Some of those dress codes seem overly strict.  No open-toed shoes, no skirts of any kind, no tights (not that they make sense if you can't wear a skirt)?  Seems like they're trying to ban all forms of feminine clothing and mandate that all girls be tomboys (is it an anti-Plastic rule or something?  Next thing you know, they'll ban wearing pink on Wednesdays).  Seriously, I feel like every other girl was wearing a shirt, denim skirt, and flip flops when the weather got warm when I was in high school.

And no mirrors in bathrooms?  There are good reasons why bathrooms have mirrors and they're taking away from the functionality of the bathroom.

Each and every one of these things sounds like it's collective punishment because they are somehow unwilling or unable to enforce the pre-existing rules.

Quote from: vdeane on September 03, 2024, 09:14:00 PMSome of those dress codes seem overly strict.  No open-toed shoes, no skirts of any kind, no tights (not that they make sense if you can't wear a skirt)?  Seems like they're trying to ban all forms of feminine clothing and mandate that all girls be tomboys (is it an anti-Plastic rule or something?  Next thing you know, they'll ban wearing pink on Wednesdays).  Seriously, I feel like every other girl was wearing a shirt, denim skirt, and flip flops when the weather got warm when I was in high school.

I feel like there's a greater reason why the ban on feminine clothing exists.

Adults will always find more and more ways to torture the younger generation and then be shocked at the subsequent resentment.

Quote from: vdeane on September 03, 2024, 09:14:00 PMSecond one, your phone gets confiscated for the rest of the day.

I have problems with confiscation of personal property by school staff, as when I was in school, I experienced teachers attaching arbitrary conditions as to the return of confiscated property. (I had my algebra calculator confiscated during a science class once, and was only allowed to have it back when I completed an essay about a fictional character portrayed by Red Skelton.) With cell phones specifically, we are talking about a several-hundred-dollar piece of equipment, which presents a liability to the school district if the teacher is careless about keeping it secured while in their custody. American schools have enough expenses to worry about without a parent taking them to small claims to replace a phone that was lost or stolen after it was confiscated.

Quote from: vdeane on September 03, 2024, 09:14:00 PMSome of those dress codes seem overly strict.  No open-toed shoes, no skirts of any kind, no tights (not that they make sense if you can't wear a skirt)?  Seems like they're trying to ban all forms of feminine clothing and mandate that all girls be tomboys (is it an anti-Plastic rule or something?  Next thing you know, they'll ban wearing pink on Wednesdays).

Most of the time these sorts of dress codes arise from the old-fashioned notion of blaming the distraction of male students on female students dressing provocatively. (Which is absurd on a number of levels: 1. any cisgender man can tell you that a typical teenage boy will be distracted by the object of their attraction no matter what they are wearing*, 2. it completely shirks the male student's responsibility to learn how to handle attraction in a responsible and respectful way, 3. it does nothing to address male students being attracted to other male students.)

*I speak from personal experience: my teenage crush was on a tomboy who wore loose T-shirts and baggy jeans every day. She still lived rent-free in my head during class hours.

I've read a lot of praise for the cell phone bans from teachers as of late, so it is probably the way forward for many districts. While there is always the argument that some emergencies warrant their use, in day-to-day situations it's better to not have a distraction in the pockets of students.

Isn't being overly fussy about superfluous rules just part and parcel for how K-12 schools are managed?

Quote from: vdeane on September 03, 2024, 09:14:00 PMno skirts of any kind

Wasn't that all long ago that all girls had to wear skirts, no pants.

Quote from: GaryV on September 04, 2024, 08:03:09 AM

Quote from: vdeane on September 03, 2024, 09:14:00 PMno skirts of any kind

Wasn't that all long ago that all girls had to wear skirts, no pants.

Define "all that long ago." I'm 55 years old and there was never such a dress code when I was a child.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2024, 04:22:54 AMIsn't being overly fussy about superfluous rules just part and parcel for how K-12 schools are managed?

Yeah, I don't think this is a Texas thing. I think many K-12 districts are into rules for the sake of rules.

Let's face it, all black clothing doesn't have any correlation to whether or not a child is depressed. I mean, it would actually be cool if it were because then the districts would know who needs help right?

Adults just don't like the way the child looks when they wear all black - so let's make a rule!

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 04, 2024, 09:04:13 AM

Quote from: GaryV on September 04, 2024, 08:03:09 AM

Quote from: vdeane on September 03, 2024, 09:14:00 PMno skirts of any kind

Wasn't that all long ago that all girls had to wear skirts, no pants.

Define "all that long ago." I'm 55 years old and there was never such a dress code when I was a child.

Well I've got you by a few years. In elementary, girls didn't wear pants. Maybe it wasn't a written rule, but everyone knew the rule.

Later, school uniforms were almost always skirts for girls. Yes that was mostly at private schools, but also at some public academy-type schools.

^^^

That was a thing in my grade school back in the mid 1980s.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 04, 2024, 09:06:35 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2024, 04:22:54 AMIsn't being overly fussy about superfluous rules just part and parcel for how K-12 schools are managed?

Yeah, I don't think this is a Texas thing. I think many K-12 districts are into rules for the sake of rules.

Let's face it, all black clothing doesn't have any correlation to whether or not a child is depressed. I mean, it would actually be cool if it were because then the districts would know who needs help right?

Adults just don't like the way the child looks when they wear all black - so let's make a rule!

When I was middle school in New Milford, CT there was a moral outrage over a girl having a pink strand of hair.  The suspension blowback got so bad that she and her parents ended up on the Phil Donahue show.  My mom and the neighbors started advocating for school uniforms.  Seemed stupid to me then, still does now. 

I don't recall what the resolution was for the pink strand of hair. 

I attended public school in Fairfax County in the 1970s and 1980s and the only form of a dress code I remember at any point (not counting gym uniforms in junior high and high school, of course) was that my junior high school had a rule saying girls could not wear, quote, "transparent blouses without bra"—which, in turn, had all the guys thinking it was too bad they didn't provide any pictures of the girl who prompted the school to enact that rule.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2024, 09:11:18 AM^^^

That was a thing in my grade school back in the mid 1980s.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 04, 2024, 09:06:35 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2024, 04:22:54 AMIsn't being overly fussy about superfluous rules just part and parcel for how K-12 schools are managed?

Yeah, I don't think this is a Texas thing. I think many K-12 districts are into rules for the sake of rules.

Let's face it, all black clothing doesn't have any correlation to whether or not a child is depressed. I mean, it would actually be cool if it were because then the districts would know who needs help right?

Adults just don't like the way the child looks when they wear all black - so let's make a rule!

When I was middle school in New Milford, CT there was a moral outrage over a girl having a pink strand of hair.  The suspension blowback got so bad that she and her parents ended up on the Phil Donahue show.  My mom and the neighbors started advocating for school uniforms.  Seemed stupid to me then, still does now. 

I don't recall what the resolution was for the pink strand of hair. 

Oh no. A pink strand of hair!! Grab the fainting couch.

The mirror thing was (at least a few years ago) that the girls would kiss the mirrors with freshly lipsticked lips, making a horrible mess.  And yes, many (some well publicized) tactics were tried, mostly unsuccessfully, by the various custodial staffs to combat that.

Many of the other things that are cited strike me as having 'wokeness' origins, too.

Mike

I recall skirts being mandatory was/is more of a private school thing. 

The only real dress codes I recall were along the lines of no crude sayings.

As far as cell phone bans go, I've also seen schools suggest smart watch bans.  There's just too much cheating going on.  And as far as emergencies go - lots of parents claim they need to get in touch with their kids in case of emergencies.  I'm not sure what qualifies as an emergency nowadays, but I'm thinking most of these parents really just want to get in touch with their kids about mundane info.  Back in the day, if there was an actual emergency, parents called the school - school contacted the room via intercom or phone.  Today, the same thing can still occur.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 04, 2024, 09:38:52 AMOh no. A pink strand of hair!! Grab the fainting couch.

This is more along the lines of shock value at the time.  Today we don't think anything of it - often due to court rulings - but back in the day when no one colored their hair (except for, say, Halloween), it ran afoul of some dress codes.

We had one kid in my school - in my class actually - who sued the school over a book bag policy implemented at the time.  The defendants asked to have the case dismissed, and the judge ruled in their favor.

Maybe it's because I grew up in Madison, WI, but students coloring their hair and wearing all sorts of torn clothing was a pretty normal occurrence when I was in high school.

To be fair the shock value was way higher when my mom found out about Mortal Kombat and Doom.  The shock was amplified when she found out not only did my dad endorse both products he bought both for us to play.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2024, 12:30:09 PMTo be fair the shock value was way higher when my mom found out about Mortal Kombat and Doom.  The shock was amplified when she found out not only did my dad endorse both products he bought both for us to play.

17 year old me got Doom II for a brand new computer (in 1995) from my father's 50 year old best friend. My father at 45 enjoyed playing it as well. That 50 year old was such an old fart for his age to begin with yet there he was playing Doom in his spare time. Until your post I never gave thought to how out-of-spec it was for his generation.

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2024, 12:50:40 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2024, 12:30:09 PMTo be fair the shock value was way higher when my mom found out about Mortal Kombat and Doom.  The shock was amplified when she found out not only did my dad endorse both products he bought both for us to play.

17 year old me got Doom II for a brand new computer (in 1995) from my father's 50 year old best friend. My father at 45 enjoyed playing it as well. That 50 year old was such an old fart for his age to begin with yet there he was playing Doom in his spare time. Until your post I never gave thought to how out-of-spec it was for his generation.

During one of my mom's rants she asked me why I had to kill everything in Doom.  Given she never played any of the games I explained that the enemies were demons from Hell and Pacifist runs were a thing.  Even someone into 90s mom outages could agree that demons couldn't be reasoned with.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 04, 2024, 11:55:45 AMI recall skirts being mandatory was/is more of a private school thing. 

The only real dress codes I recall were along the lines of no crude sayings.

My Mom had the "skirts mandatory" rule and she went to public school, but this was an exurban/rural district in the 60s.  When I was in school the dress code was mainly "no translucent tops, no bare midriffs, no (visible) spaghetti straps, and skirts can't be too short (had to be longer than your fingers would reach when standing with your arms straight)".

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 04, 2024, 11:55:45 AMAs far as cell phone bans go, I've also seen schools suggest smart watch bans.  There's just too much cheating going on.  And as far as emergencies go - lots of parents claim they need to get in touch with their kids in case of emergencies.  I'm not sure what qualifies as an emergency nowadays, but I'm thinking most of these parents really just want to get in touch with their kids about mundane info.  Back in the day, if there was an actual emergency, parents called the school - school contacted the room via intercom or phone.  Today, the same thing can still occur.

Yeah, the parents are probably being overly broad with "emergencies"... still, if a student can avoid using their phone when they should be paying attention in class, have it on silent, and want to use it during lunch/free periods/passing time... let them, as far as I'm concerned.  Especially free periods, for schools that have them; if they're outside or getting lunch off campus, they need a way to tell the time, and who wears traditional watches anymore?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 04, 2024, 09:04:13 AM

Quote from: GaryV on September 04, 2024, 08:03:09 AM

Quote from: vdeane on September 03, 2024, 09:14:00 PMno skirts of any kind

Wasn't that all long ago that all girls had to wear skirts, no pants.

Define "all that long ago." I'm 55 years old and there was never such a dress code when I was a child.

I'm 12 years older than you and our public high school in Memphis did not allow girls to wear pants until I was in eighth grade or so.  In fact, neither boys nor girls were allowed to wear jeans until around 1970.  I'm pretty sure that was a district-wide rule.

Our public school district in southeast Louisiana allows each school's parents to vote on uniforms.  Once a school elects to wear uniforms they become permanent; if a school rejects them a re-vote is taken every four years.  All elementary, middle, and junior high schools have voted in uniforms, and four of the eight high schools have them; the remaining four high schools have strict dress codes.  (The high school that my kids attended is one of the schools without mandatory uniforms -- or at least it was when mine were there, which has been a few years now.)

My take on school uniforms is that it is an added expense for parents to have to buy specific clothes just for school and nothing else, where as most kids can wear their school clothes for other things.

It's school, not the military. Kids have a right to free schooling (in the case of my state a Constitutional right), so guidelines are OK but uniforms are just an unfunded mandate on the public.

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2024, 02:47:59 PMMy take on school uniforms is that it is an added expense for parents to have to buy specific clothes just for school and nothing else, where as most kids can wear their school clothes for other things.

It's school, not the military. Kids have a right to free schooling (in the case of my state a Constitutional right), so guidelines are OK but uniforms are just an unfunded mandate on the public.

I have heard the argument thar richer kids wore more fashionable clothes, thus uniforms would even the playing field. With all the fallacies with that, such as the added expense you mentioned, it is another example of forced conformity and outlawing individual choices.

Not to be cynical, but having gone to a private school with uniforms, when it comes to applying that to public school I'm skeptical of things that give more power to school administrators to arbitrarily harass students who they don't like.

Quote from: SectorZ on September 04, 2024, 02:47:59 PMMy take on school uniforms is that it is an added expense for parents to have to buy specific clothes just for school and nothing else, where as most kids can wear their school clothes for other things.

It's school, not the military. Kids have a right to free schooling (in the case of my state a Constitutional right), so guidelines are OK but uniforms are just an unfunded mandate on the public.

So when teachers say kids have to bring their own pencils, markers, notebooks, headphones, etc, you don't get that stuff either?

The double-standards for apparel used to be pretty striking.

Prior to February 2001, it was perfectly OK to wear a T-shirt with Dale Earnhardt's car emblazoned on it, but not so much Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s car.

Why ban Crocs?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 03, 2024, 05:04:38 PMCharles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

So now teachers are going to have a harder time identifying students who might need help with depression because they'll all be dressed in bright cheery colors.

Dumb.

Quote from: mgk920 on September 04, 2024, 11:13:07 AMMany of the other things that are cited strike me as having 'wokeness' origins, too.

We would get in trouble for sleeping in class.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2024, 06:57:34 PMPrior to February 2001, it was perfectly OK to wear a T-shirt with Dale Earnhardt's car emblazoned on it, but not so much Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s car.

A formal rule on which Earnhardts are allowed to be displayed on apparel is probably the most Southern thing I've ever heard of.

Jr. was sponsored by Budweiser at the time.  You could get the jank Jr. merchandise without Budweiser on it and nobody at a school would care. 

Ah, I figured this was just rank Earnhardt discrimination.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2024, 03:51:22 PMin some cases banning hoodies and all-black clothing
As for dress codes... again good idea.

What in the name of authoritarianism is this? You think banning black clothes is a good idea? What the fuck? This is conformist nonsense, and discriminates against heavy metal fans. What is their excuse for banning black clothes? It sounds like they want to fuck with the kids who are individuals. This school obviously wants its students to be mindless robots who don't have opinions and don't complain when they're being fucked in the ass.   

Quote from: mgk920 on September 04, 2024, 11:13:07 AMMany of the other things that are cited strike me as having 'wokeness' origins, too.

Mike

Now I've seen the term "wokeness" used in so many different contexts, I have no idea what it means anymore.

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2024, 07:00:25 AM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 04, 2024, 11:13:07 AMMany of the other things that are cited strike me as having 'wokeness' origins, too.

Mike

Now I've seen the term "wokeness" used in so many different contexts, I have no idea what it means anymore.

"Woke" is used when basic human decency happens these days.

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 12:19:15 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2024, 03:51:22 PMin some cases banning hoodies and all-black clothing
As for dress codes... again good idea.

What in the name of authoritarianism is this? You think banning black clothes is a good idea? What the fuck? This is conformist nonsense, and discriminates against heavy metal fans. What is their excuse for banning black clothes? It sounds like they want to fuck with the kids who are individuals. This school obviously wants its students to be mindless robots who don't have opinions and don't complain when they're being fucked in the ass.   

Black clothes are banned in my house. They show cat hair too easily.  :bigass:

Seriously, I agree. If you're going to ban black clothing, why not dark navy blue?

I think school dress codes in general suck.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 04, 2024, 06:57:34 PMThe double-standards for apparel used to be pretty striking.

Prior to February 2001, it was perfectly OK to wear a T-shirt with Dale Earnhardt's car emblazoned on it, but not so much Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s car.

Why ban Crocs?

Probably the alcohol advertising versus GM Goodwrench advertising had a lot to do with it.

Source: once mistakenly wore a shirt with a Camel GT (not the mascot, Joe) and wound up at the assistant principal's office about 30 minutes before the school ended. Oops.

Never been a fan of school uniforms. They're great for one thing: picky kids who don't know what to wear that day. They're just kids - if they don't fit in one way, they'll find another. If they're so far up/down the social scale, it's probably anything and everything other than the choice of clothing, and they'll just find another silly way to differentiate social strata.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 06, 2024, 02:07:18 PMBlack clothes are banned in my house. They show cat hair too easily.  :bigass:

I have 3 cats, and I wear black shirts a lot, and I don't care if anybody judges me for having cat hair on them, they can do us all a favor.

QuoteI think school dress codes in general suck.

They're anti-American.

Someone want to explain what the theory behind banning black clothing is?

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 06, 2024, 04:02:33 PMSomeone want to explain what the theory behind banning black clothing is?

They might listen to Marilyn Manson or something and that's scary to some people.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 06, 2024, 02:07:18 PMBlack clothes are banned in my house. They show cat hair too easily.  :bigass:

....

We use a lint roller for that purpose. Works pretty well, although I sometimes find it a bit awkward to use if our cat has decided she wants to sit on my lap for some amount of time. The lint roller works well on a shirt, and on your legs, but in the middle area, well.....

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 04:00:10 PM

QuoteI think school dress codes in general suck.

They're anti-American.

Because the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 04:00:10 PM

QuoteI think school dress codes in general suck.

They're anti-American.

Because the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Just really bad camo.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PMBecause the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Members of the military are generally expected to temporarily give up personal freedoms while they serve. (Other freedoms members of the military give up include freedom of movement, the right to publicly endorse political candidates, and the right to decline vaccines.) This is generally known to you at the time you enlist.

You can, during normal times, choose whether or not you want to be in the military. Going to school isn't much of a choice. (Theoretically you can drop out at a certain point, but this puts you at a massive disadvantage in life, while declining to join the military does not.)

Military dress codes serve a functional purpose: you want to know if the people you're thinking about shooting at are friends or enemies. A school dress code does not have a similar functional purpose.

Quote from: Stephane Dumas on September 03, 2024, 04:23:15 PMMaybe some public schools could adopt some school uniforms like some private schools or having uniforms like the school uniforms of Japan then we see often in various animes.

How about they not.

QuoteAnd it would be interesting to see pay phones coming back.

Do you think we should bring back the telegraph? Abacuses? Carburetors?

There's a reason those technologies are obsolete.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 03, 2024, 05:04:38 PM"Meantime, in El Paso, Texas, students at one middle school are encouraged to pick from lighter parts of the color wheel as they plan their outfits for the school day. Charles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That explains a lot.

QuoteThat may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

It is condescending to those of us with mental illnesses. I hope somebody sues.

How is black associated with mental illness? 

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 04:00:10 PM

QuoteI think school dress codes in general suck.

They're anti-American.

Because the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Should we run public schools like the military? This is the dumbest thing I've heard since the school's justification of wearing black clothes.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 06, 2024, 10:40:29 PMHow is black associated with mental illness? 

It's a way to discriminate against kids who follow a left hand path or just like music. If you go to a rock concert or even a country or pop concert, most of the shirts for sale will be black. It doesn't mean you're depressed. This guy is a fucking idiot.

If I went to this school, I'd buy the most obnoxiously bright clothes that I could find. A hunter orange shirt, pink socks, red pants or something else that looks ridiculous and doesn't match.

But what is the actual basis being used as a justification?  I can't find a solid citation which notes this to be a thing with black colors.  I assumed it was pseudo-science item or some social trending thing I wasn't aware of. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 06, 2024, 10:56:27 PMBut what is the actual basis being used as a justification?  I can't find a solid citation which notes this to be a thing with black colors.  I assumed it was pseudo-science item or some social trending thing I wasn't aware of. 

It's nonsense.

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:48:09 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 04:00:10 PM

QuoteI think school dress codes in general suck.

They're anti-American.

Because the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Should we run public schools like the military? This is the dumbest thing I've heard since the school's justification of wearing black clothes.

You were the one that extrapolated something that happens in the schools to be "anti-American". I just provided an example to show that America has plenty of official dress codes.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2024, 10:13:50 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PMBecause the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Members of the military are generally expected to temporarily give up personal freedoms while they serve. (Other freedoms members of the military give up include freedom of movement, the right to publicly endorse political candidates, and the right to decline vaccines.) This is generally known to you at the time you enlist.

You can, during normal times, choose whether or not you want to be in the military. Going to school isn't much of a choice. (Theoretically you can drop out at a certain point, but this puts you at a massive disadvantage in life, while declining to join the military does not.)

Military dress codes serve a functional purpose: you want to know if the people you're thinking about shooting at are friends or enemies. A school dress code does not have a similar functional purpose.

Even in the military, it's impossible to implement uniform code universally and fairly. If I were to start attending a gurdwara and wearing my hair in a turban, I wouldn't be required to change my physical appearance in order to join.

Similarly, I doubt these schools would (or could) require Muslim girls to wear a light-colored hijab

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:37:24 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 03, 2024, 05:04:38 PM"Meantime, in El Paso, Texas, students at one middle school are encouraged to pick from lighter parts of the color wheel as they plan their outfits for the school day. Charles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That explains a lot.

QuoteThat may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

It is condescending to those of us with mental illnesses. I hope somebody sues.

You can't sue for being condescending.

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:34:42 PMDo you think we should bring back the telegraph? Abacuses? Carburetors?

There's a reason those technologies are obsolete.

Not going that far back but as a old saying said "what's old is new again" with vinyl records and casettes are popular among hipsters.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 07, 2024, 07:55:18 AM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:37:24 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 03, 2024, 05:04:38 PM"Meantime, in El Paso, Texas, students at one middle school are encouraged to pick from lighter parts of the color wheel as they plan their outfits for the school day. Charles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That explains a lot.

QuoteThat may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

It is condescending to those of us with mental illnesses. I hope somebody sues.

You can't sue for being condescending.

You can sue for anything.

You probably can't win a lawsuit for someone having been condescending.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 06, 2024, 02:07:18 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 12:19:15 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 03, 2024, 03:51:22 PMin some cases banning hoodies and all-black clothing
As for dress codes... again good idea.

What in the name of authoritarianism is this? You think banning black clothes is a good idea? What the fuck? This is conformist nonsense, and discriminates against heavy metal fans. What is their excuse for banning black clothes? It sounds like they want to fuck with the kids who are individuals. This school obviously wants its students to be mindless robots who don't have opinions and don't complain when they're being fucked in the ass.   

Black clothes are banned in my house. They show cat hair too easily.  :bigass:

Seriously, I agree. If you're going to ban black clothing, why not dark navy blue?

I think school dress codes in general suck.

Yes.  Kids will figure out what to wear based on their peer groups and what they like.  There's no reason to go spend a lot of energy trying to devise and enforce a dress code.

Also, certain color schemes are associated with certain criminal gangs in some places.

Mike

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 07, 2024, 07:55:18 AM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:37:24 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 03, 2024, 05:04:38 PM"Meantime, in El Paso, Texas, students at one middle school are encouraged to pick from lighter parts of the color wheel as they plan their outfits for the school day. Charles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That explains a lot.

QuoteThat may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

It is condescending to those of us with mental illnesses. I hope somebody sues.

You can't sue for being condescending.

Thank you for being so condescending.

Quote from: mgk920 on September 07, 2024, 01:21:42 PMAlso, certain color schemes are associated with certain criminal gangs in some places.

Mike

Right, which is why I asked about what the actual reference was being used by this school district. 

Quote from: GaryV on September 07, 2024, 01:32:10 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 07, 2024, 07:55:18 AM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:37:24 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 03, 2024, 05:04:38 PM"Meantime, in El Paso, Texas, students at one middle school are encouraged to pick from lighter parts of the color wheel as they plan their outfits for the school day. Charles Middle School Principal Nick DeSantis informed parents all-black clothing is banned this school year due to it being associated with mental health issues like depression"

That explains a lot.

QuoteThat may be one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

It is condescending to those of us with mental illnesses. I hope somebody sues.

You can't sue for being condescending.

Thank you for being so condescending.

Sue me.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 07, 2024, 07:55:18 AMYou can't sue for being condescending.

Did I say that? No. You can sue for anything you want to. You might not win, but you can sue for discrimination.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 07, 2024, 07:55:18 AMSue me.

I wouldn't want to give you the pleasure of seeing your name on the court docket.

The fascism grows.

Our schools are criminal enterprises.

We all need to band together and start suing schools.

Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2024, 07:00:25 AMNow I've seen the term "wokeness" used in so many different contexts, I have no idea what it means anymore.

It means something different to each person. The conservatives use it as an insult, while the libs think it's great. I personally wouldn't use that term if I were "woke" because nobody can agree on the definition.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 07, 2024, 07:44:42 PMWe all need to band together and start suing schools.

Why? Are they condescending?

Quote from: bandit957 on September 07, 2024, 07:44:42 PMWe all need to band together and start suing schools.

Start taking a look at the mirror if you want to see who would be paying for it.

We don't need suing, we just need to get these people removed from the world of education. Make elected school committees do their job.

I don't have kids.  Therefore I'm not losing sleep over weird things educators do like banning black clothes. 

Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't mind a school uniform? For elementary school (JK-Grade 8), there was no uniform, but high school (Grade 9-12) had a uniform. The uniform didn't bother me at all, and it was actually kind of convenient.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 11:52:29 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:48:09 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 04:00:10 PM

QuoteI think school dress codes in general suck.

They're anti-American.

Because the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Should we run public schools like the military? This is the dumbest thing I've heard since the school's justification of wearing black clothes.

You were the one that extrapolated something that happens in the schools to be "anti-American". I just provided an example to show that America has plenty of official dress codes.

For sure! Retail jobs often have uniforms, some professions have formal dress codes, etc. Also, is there anything more American than the military? :biggrin:

We should all be able to agree that the burgeoning fascism must end.

Quote from: 7/8 on September 09, 2024, 09:46:38 AMMaybe I'm the only one who doesn't mind a school uniform? For elementary school (JK-Grade 8), there was no uniform, but high school (Grade 9-12) had a uniform. The uniform didn't bother me at all, and it was actually kind of convenient.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 11:52:29 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 10:48:09 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 06, 2024, 04:50:20 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 06, 2024, 04:00:10 PM

QuoteI think school dress codes in general suck.

They're anti-American.

Because the American military doesn't have a dress code or anything.

Should we run public schools like the military? This is the dumbest thing I've heard since the school's justification of wearing black clothes.

You were the one that extrapolated something that happens in the schools to be "anti-American". I just provided an example to show that America has plenty of official dress codes.

For sure! Retail jobs often have uniforms, some professions have formal dress codes, etc. Also, is there anything more American than the military? :biggrin:

All sorts of jobs have dress codes or "dress expectations." That doesn't mean that should extend to the public schools.

Some people will need to wear a uniform sometime in their later life, therefore all schoolchildren need to wear school uniforms. :no:  :rolleyes:

From my perspective, the emphasis is to prepare young people for the adult workplace. It's not a place for a fashion show or the high school athletic heroes. Only a few lucky athletes actually make it to the pros. The rest of us will end up working almost every day from the time we graduate to the time we (hopefully) retire. In adulthood, there is no three month "summer vacations" or "breaks". For most of us, we take up a second unpaid job of becoming parents. Depending on the choices we make, the result careers can mean engineering roads, software development, sales, or saying "Would you like fries with that?" and the associated paycheck. It will more likely mean, at times, working very late, or arriving at work while it's oh-so-dark outside, or weekend work. Sometimes, it also means that you are working a holiday while other folks are at home opening presents.

The worst part? The young people graduating today will probably have a worse life than their parents had.

Quote from: Big John on September 09, 2024, 10:06:04 AMSome people will need to wear a uniform sometime in their later life, therefore all schoolchildren need to wear school uniforms.

If not uniforms, then there is an acceptable dress code... especially if you are interacting with customers.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 10:07:44 AMFrom my perspective, the emphasis is to prepare young people for the adult workplace.

No grade school child needs to be prepared for the adult workplace via a dress code. That's nonsense.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 09, 2024, 09:50:55 AMWe should all be able to agree that the burgeoning fascism must end.

Wholeheartedly agree. What I would recommend through, is investigating what fascism is. Because 99% of the time that word is invoked in this country, it's to discuss something that isn't remotely similar to fascism.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 09, 2024, 10:20:31 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 10:07:44 AMFrom my perspective, the emphasis is to prepare young people for the adult workplace.

No grade school child needs to be prepared for the adult workplace via a dress code. That's nonsense.

You want to establish good habits while they are young. Dress shirts and ties? Nope. T-shifts with questionable messages? Probably.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 10:56:54 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 09, 2024, 10:20:31 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 10:07:44 AMFrom my perspective, the emphasis is to prepare young people for the adult workplace.

No grade school child needs to be prepared for the adult workplace via a dress code. That's nonsense.

You want to establish good habits while they are young. Dress shirts and ties? Nope. T-shifts with questionable messages? Probably.

Absolutely not. I have three kids, never once cared what they wore to school, and they are all adults with stable jobs where I assume they know how to dress correctly.

The idea that these are "habits" that they somehow won't be able to break is silly.

"Dad, I got fired today because, even though everyone around me wears a nice shirt and slacks, I can't help but wearing a hoodie and sweatpants because of what I wore in high school."

To me, there are three reasons to restrict what is worn in school:

1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

2) Obscenity - self-explanatory

3) Too revealing - people's opinions on what is exactly too revealing will differ, but as long as the policy is clear and consistently enforced, that's good enough

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

I wasn't talking about wearing it to school and then putting it in your locker or hung up somewhere. I was thinking more of wearing it all day. Not even letting them wear the hoodie to school is extreme.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

Also, where is the actual safety?  If some kid is motivated enough to do something bad they'll find a way around security theater.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AMTo me, there are three reasons to restrict what is worn in school:

1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

2) Obscenity - self-explanatory

3) Too revealing - people's opinions on what is exactly too revealing will differ, but as long as the policy is clear and consistently enforced, that's good enough

I agree with 2 and 3. Cover yourself and keep it clean.

Agree with Max on 1.

Might as well ban book bags too if we're worried about #1.

Ban books too. Never know if one is actually a fake storage book with a secret compartment.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2024, 11:53:22 AMMight as well ban book bags too if we're worried about #1.

Some schools already have.

QuoteBan books too. Never know if one is actually a fake storage book with a secret compartment.

They've done that too.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 09, 2024, 11:54:47 AM

QuoteBan books too. Never know if one is actually a fake storage book with a secret compartment.

They've done that too.

And, to reference an earlier post, THIS is fascism!

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2024, 11:53:22 AMMight as well ban book bags too if we're worried about #1.

Ban books too. Never know if one is actually a fake storage book with a secret compartment.

That's the price we pay as a society for the Shawshank Redemption.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM2) Obscenity - self-explanatory
3) Too revealing - people's opinions on what is exactly too revealing will differ, but as long as the policy is clear and consistently enforced, that's good enough

These two items are the big ones right there in my opinion. Safety is also a factor.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 09, 2024, 11:53:22 AMMight as well ban book bags too if we're worried about #1.

Actually, some school districts require clear bags.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 10:07:44 AMFrom my perspective, the emphasis is to prepare young people for the adult workplace. It's not a place for a fashion show or the high school athletic heroes. Only a few lucky athletes actually make it to the pros. The rest of us will end up working almost every day from the time we graduate to the time we (hopefully) retire. In adulthood, there is no three month "summer vacations" or "breaks". For most of us, we take up a second unpaid job of becoming parents. Depending on the choices we make, the result careers can mean engineering roads, software development, sales, or saying "Would you like fries with that?" and the associated paycheck. It will more likely mean, at times, working very late, or arriving at work while it's oh-so-dark outside, or weekend work. Sometimes, it also means that you are working a holiday while other folks are at home opening presents.

The worst part? The young people graduating today will probably have a worse life than their parents had.

What if kids have decided early on that they don't want to have a desk job? My primary job is outside, and my supervisors don't care what I wear as long as it isn't potentially offensive to others. Whatever I'm wearing is always covered up by hi-vis PPE anyway.

School isn't just about preparing students for the workforce, it's also about teaching critical thinking skills, enlightening minds, and making social connections. In what way do alternative aesthetics hinder those goals?

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:42:06 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

I wasn't talking about wearing it to school and then putting it in your locker or hung up somewhere. I was thinking more of wearing it all day. Not even letting them wear the hoodie to school is extreme.

The only thing I would say re: hoodies, is that they shouldn't have the hood itself on to "hide" in class. That seems to be more the issue than hiding weapons.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 12:25:43 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:42:06 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

I wasn't talking about wearing it to school and then putting it in your locker or hung up somewhere. I was thinking more of wearing it all day. Not even letting them wear the hoodie to school is extreme.

The only thing I would say re: hoodies, is that they shouldn't have the hood itself on to "hide" in class. That seems to be more the issue than hiding weapons.

Context matters there, too. They could just be cold, and a lot of schools don't allow hats in class.

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 12:25:43 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:42:06 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

I wasn't talking about wearing it to school and then putting it in your locker or hung up somewhere. I was thinking more of wearing it all day. Not even letting them wear the hoodie to school is extreme.

The only thing I would say re: hoodies, is that they shouldn't have the hood itself on to "hide" in class. That seems to be more the issue than hiding weapons.

Context matters there, too. They could just be cold, and a lot of schools don't allow hats in class.

Eh. I don't think I've ever worn a hood inside for warmth, and certainly not in any situation above 60°. If the classroom is less than 60°, we have other issues with that school.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 12:40:03 PM

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 12:25:43 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:42:06 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

I wasn't talking about wearing it to school and then putting it in your locker or hung up somewhere. I was thinking more of wearing it all day. Not even letting them wear the hoodie to school is extreme.

The only thing I would say re: hoodies, is that they shouldn't have the hood itself on to "hide" in class. That seems to be more the issue than hiding weapons.

Context matters there, too. They could just be cold, and a lot of schools don't allow hats in class.

Eh. I don't think I've ever worn a hood inside for warmth, and certainly not in any situation above 60°. If the classroom is less than 60°, we have other issues with that school.

A 60° indoor temperature could feel very cold to someone from a tropical country. Or, well, southern Florida or Louisiana.

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:24:11 PMWhat if kids have decided early on that they don't want to have a desk job? My primary job is outside, and my supervisors don't care what I wear as long as it isn't potentially offensive to others. Whatever I'm wearing is always covered up by hi-vis PPE anyway.

If you are talking about Personal Protection Equipment, that is your job's "dress code".

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:24:11 PMSchool isn't just about preparing students for the workforce, it's also about teaching critical thinking skills, enlightening minds, and making social connections. In what way do alternative aesthetics hinder those goals?

The words that I used at the start of this thread is "skills to be self-sufficient adults and contributing members of society". As such, reducing the distractions helps in this aspect.... especially when we are talking about an age range where hormones are "raging".

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:59:39 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 12:40:03 PM

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 12:25:43 PM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:42:06 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

I wasn't talking about wearing it to school and then putting it in your locker or hung up somewhere. I was thinking more of wearing it all day. Not even letting them wear the hoodie to school is extreme.

The only thing I would say re: hoodies, is that they shouldn't have the hood itself on to "hide" in class. That seems to be more the issue than hiding weapons.

Context matters there, too. They could just be cold, and a lot of schools don't allow hats in class.

Eh. I don't think I've ever worn a hood inside for warmth, and certainly not in any situation above 60°. If the classroom is less than 60°, we have other issues with that school.

A 60° indoor temperature could feel very cold to someone from a tropical country. Or, well, southern Florida or Louisiana.

But the likelihood of having an indoor temperature that cool is incredibly low, which is the point I was making.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 10:56:54 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 09, 2024, 10:20:31 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 10:07:44 AMFrom my perspective, the emphasis is to prepare young people for the adult workplace.

No grade school child needs to be prepared for the adult workplace via a dress code. That's nonsense.

You want to establish good habits while they are young. Dress shirts and ties? Nope. T-shifts with questionable messages? Probably.

Ah, but the devil's in the details.  Who decides what's questionable?

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:42:06 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 09, 2024, 11:40:37 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

But if you need to wear a jacket into school during the winter, is that not just as "concealing" as a hoodie would be?

I wasn't talking about wearing it to school and then putting it in your locker or hung up somewhere. I was thinking more of wearing it all day. Not even letting them wear the hoodie to school is extreme.

Many schools here have open hallways - to go between classrooms or between classroom and the cafeteria, you're outside.  Kids are going to need their hoodies with them.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 01:05:11 PM

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:24:11 PMWhat if kids have decided early on that they don't want to have a desk job? My primary job is outside, and my supervisors don't care what I wear as long as it isn't potentially offensive to others. Whatever I'm wearing is always covered up by hi-vis PPE anyway.

If you are talking about Personal Protection Equipment, that is your job's "dress code".

I guess you do you, but I wouldn't call a hi-vis vest and hat supplied by my employer a "dress code" any more than a welding mask and gloves. At least not in the same sense that requiring a dress shirt and tie is a dress code. It's more like common sense.

Quote from: ZLoth on September 09, 2024, 01:05:11 PM

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 09, 2024, 12:24:11 PMSchool isn't just about preparing students for the workforce, it's also about teaching critical thinking skills, enlightening minds, and making social connections. In what way do alternative aesthetics hinder those goals?

The words that I used at the start of this thread is "skills to be self-sufficient adults and contributing members of society". As such, reducing the distractions helps in this aspect.... especially when we are talking about an age range where hormones are "raging".

If a student has a crush on someone in class, they're going to be distracted on one level or another regardless of what they're wearing. I don't think anyone is disputing that students should be reasonably covered up in school--we may have different visions of what that looks like, sure, but it sure doesn't look like a ban on black clothing.

Just to give context on the black clothing thing, and not saying one way or the other how I feel about it, immediately after Columbine, my high school (de facto in Littleton, CO) had a ban on trench coats.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 08, 2024, 09:48:32 AMI don't have kids.  Therefore I'm not losing sleep over weird things educators do like banning black clothes. 

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Quote from: bugo on September 09, 2024, 09:04:21 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 08, 2024, 09:48:32 AMI don't have kids.  Therefore I'm not losing sleep over weird things educators do like banning black clothes. 

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Then they came for the insomniacs because I didn't lose any sleep.

Quote from: formulanone on September 09, 2024, 09:28:34 PM

Quote from: bugo on September 09, 2024, 09:04:21 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 08, 2024, 09:48:32 AMI don't have kids.  Therefore I'm not losing sleep over weird things educators do like banning black clothes. 

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Then they came for the insomniacs because I didn't lose any sleep.

Then they came for the Tamales because we can't have potlucks anymore.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 07, 2024, 07:44:42 PMWe all need to band together and start suing schools.

Unfortunately, when someone sues the school district, the whole community has to pay for that. Including you.

If you want to force change, the far more effective strategy is to band together and win a school board election.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 09, 2024, 11:34:51 AM1) Safety - banning hoodies can fall into this category along with other outerwear that could be used to conceal dangerous items

When I was in high school I wore a hoodie every day, so I could conceal dangerous items in it like protractors, and $2 bills.

Why, to think, someone could have paid me $3 to measure an angle for them, and then I would have been able to break a $5 bill for them. And nobody would have been any the wiser.

The horror.

And for those that prohibit students from possessing images of guns, does that include quarters showing people with guns (there are several)?

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on September 12, 2024, 02:35:10 PMAnd for those that prohibit students from possessing images of guns, does that include quarters showing people with guns (there are several)?

Mike

Do kids carry quarters?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 12, 2024, 02:37:22 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 12, 2024, 02:35:10 PMAnd for those that prohibit students from possessing images of guns, does that include quarters showing people with guns (there are several)?

Mike

Do kids carry quarters?

To use the pay phone to call mom and dad for a ride home when their after-school activity is done. (circa 1983)

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 12, 2024, 03:02:16 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 12, 2024, 02:37:22 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 12, 2024, 02:35:10 PMAnd for those that prohibit students from possessing images of guns, does that include quarters showing people with guns (there are several)?

Mike

Do kids carry quarters?

To use the pay phone to call mom and dad for a ride home when their after-school activity is done. (circa 1983)

They probably were mixed in with their milk tokens.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 12, 2024, 03:02:16 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 12, 2024, 02:37:22 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 12, 2024, 02:35:10 PMAnd for those that prohibit students from possessing images of guns, does that include quarters showing people with guns (there are several)?

Mike

Do kids carry quarters?

To use the pay phone to call mom and dad for a ride home when their after-school activity is done. (circa 1983)

That's what collect calls are for. State your name. Dan Pickmeup.

Quote from: 7/8 on September 09, 2024, 09:46:38 AMMaybe I'm the only one who doesn't mind a school uniform? For elementary school (JK-Grade 8), there was no uniform, but high school (Grade 9-12) had a uniform. The uniform didn't bother me at all, and it was actually kind of convenient.

Agreed on the convenience, and it's also good for reducing social pressure and potential for cliques and bullying to occur at school. I think knowing what you're going to wear to school and not having to worry what others think of it is actually a pretty big relief.. especially in your sensitive tween and early teen years. Sure, some schools are getting rightly criticized for their excessive dress code rules (and some, like "no black clothes" are bizarre), but I don't think that has blanket application to uniforms.

The point of uniforms generally is not to force an unwanted dress code on the students, but rather reinforce that you're there to learn by reducing distractions and creating a more equitable educational experience. I think those who are disagreeing may be weighing their adult perspective and adult desire for individual expression too heavily rather than reflecting on how they would have felt about it when they were a student. As a student, chances are you probably don't really care what you're wearing that much, and at that age not having to actively make fashion choices is a good thing in just about every way imaginable.

Quote from: mgk920 on September 12, 2024, 02:35:10 PMAnd for those that prohibit students from possessing images of guns, does that include quarters showing people with guns (there are several)?

Mike

Did the OP mention a ban on images of guns? I'm sure whatever you're talking about is very context-specific and nobody would get in trouble for having historical weaponry images or quarters (or the flags of Mozambique or Guatemala).

Clothing that prominently features alcohol or tobacco brands is banned in schools, but I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone getting in trouble for carrying around a picture of a prohibition-era alcohol bust, for example.

Quote from: webny99 on September 12, 2024, 04:01:11 PM

Quote from: 7/8 on September 09, 2024, 09:46:38 AMMaybe I'm the only one who doesn't mind a school uniform? For elementary school (JK-Grade 8), there was no uniform, but high school (Grade 9-12) had a uniform. The uniform didn't bother me at all, and it was actually kind of convenient.

I think those who are disagreeing may be weighing their adult perspective and adult desire for individual expression too heavily rather than reflecting on how they would have felt about it when they were a student.

Referring to my post on page 1 about power tripping administrators I freely admit some of it is from an adult perspective as I learned how other adults think and act once I became one myself. Many adults just want to be bullies especially if their being an asshole is fully sanctioned. I have real concerns about administrators using dress codes to bully students they just don't like. Sure, they'll find other reasons to harass kids anyway, but dress codes/hair codes have always been a frequent favorite to target students just because they don't like them.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on September 12, 2024, 04:20:02 PM

Quote from: webny99 on September 12, 2024, 04:01:11 PM

Quote from: 7/8 on September 09, 2024, 09:46:38 AMMaybe I'm the only one who doesn't mind a school uniform? For elementary school (JK-Grade 8), there was no uniform, but high school (Grade 9-12) had a uniform. The uniform didn't bother me at all, and it was actually kind of convenient.

I think those who are disagreeing may be weighing their adult perspective and adult desire for individual expression too heavily rather than reflecting on how they would have felt about it when they were a student.

Referring to my post on page 1 about power tripping administrators I freely admit some of it is from an adult perspective as I learned how other adults think and act once I became one myself. Many adults just want to be bullies especially if their being an asshole is fully sanctioned. I have real concerns about administrators using dress codes to bully students they just don't like. Sure, they'll find other reasons to harass kids anyway, but dress codes/hair codes have always been a frequent favorite to target students just because they don't like them.

That's why just having uniforms is in some ways better than having a dress code (especially a strict dress code) because it removes all the drama and ambiguity around what's allowed and what's not. I have fortunately never been in a situation where higher ups at school or elsewhere have specifically used a dress code to target someone, but it sounds terrible and I am sorry anyone has had to experience it.

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 12, 2024, 04:12:39 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 12, 2024, 02:35:10 PMAnd for those that prohibit students from possessing images of guns, does that include quarters showing people with guns (there are several)?

Mike

Did the OP mention a ban on images of guns? I'm sure whatever you're talking about is very context-specific and nobody would get in trouble for having historical weaponry images or quarters (or the flags of Mozambique or Guatemala).

Clothing that prominently features alcohol or tobacco brands is banned in schools, but I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone getting in trouble for carrying around a picture of a prohibition-era alcohol bust, for example.

Are the students making their coins visible to other students? If not there is no problem. Such as if a student was wearing a shirt with a prohibited image or message, the principal would usually make the student wear the shirt inside out for the rest of the day.

Quote from: Big John on September 12, 2024, 04:46:10 PMAre the students making their coins visible to other students? If not there is no problem. Such as if a student was wearing a shirt with a prohibited image or message, the principal would usually make the student wear the shirt inside out for the rest of the day.

I remember when I was in high school, while there was no dress code a teacher once tried to make me turn my t-shirt inside out. It was from Pennsylvania Dutch country and it referred to a fictional university in a town with an infamous name: Intercourse University.

I refused to turn the shirt inside out unless she also made one of the girls turn her shirt inside out. Hers had the logo of a surf wax company on it. I'm sure some of you remember those shirts: Mr. Zog's Sex Wax, "The Best for Your Stick." The teacher backed down, probably because she was unwilling to make a girl turn her shirt inside out yet also knew that I would have made a very big deal out of her having a double standard (which I would have, as I was on the school newspaper staff and I could and would have written a column about it).

Banning mirrors is one of the most pathetic ideas our society has come up with in the last decade. The lack of mirrors itself is not an issue, but the reasoning behind it is.

Even if you take the idea at face value - seeing your own reflection can lead to low self esteem - what is the lesson that is being taught to young people? It goes beyond body image issues . . . take away the mirror so you never have to see your reflection, never have to face your problems, never have to learn to appreciate yourself or work at anything to become someone you're proud of. Just pretend your problems don't exist.

When it comes to dress codes, you know the rules, and so do I.  Also, on Wednesdays, we wear pink.

If there was a dress code in high school, I didn't look at it and just wore what I felt like.  I never heard of anyone getting in trouble for clothing.

Quote from: thspfc on September 12, 2024, 05:13:37 PMBanning mirrors is one of the most pathetic ideas our society has come up with in the last decade. The lack of mirrors itself is not an issue, but the reasoning behind it is.

Even if you take the idea at face value - seeing your own reflection can lead to low self esteem - what is the lesson that is being taught to young people? It goes beyond body image issues . . . take away the mirror so you never have to see your reflection, never have to face your problems, never have to learn to appreciate yourself or work at anything to become someone you're proud of. Just pretend your problems don't exist.

Not saying anyone is lying, but is there a district is actually banning mirrors? Or is this an "eating cats and dogs" kind of thing where one idiot starts a rumor on Facebook and all of a sudden we have mass hysteria?

I looked it up after I saw the mirror thing and there are a couple actual news stories:

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/a-school-removed-bathroom-mirrors-to-keep-students-from-making-tiktoks-will-it-work/2024/02

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/03/us/back-to-school-bans-cell-phones-hoodies-mirrors/index.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2024/01/29/north-carolina-middle-school-removes-bathroom-mirrors-tiktok/72398484007/

https://nypost.com/2024/01/21/news/north-carolina-southern-alamance-middle-school-takes-mirrors-away-from-students-over-tiktok/

Maybe school boards are now stocked with vampires?  We'll know if suddenly garlic and sunlight gets banned.

Are students allowed to carry compact mirrors?

Quote from: webny99 on September 12, 2024, 04:29:19 PMThat's why just having uniforms is in some ways better than having a dress code (especially a strict dress code) because it removes all the drama and ambiguity around what's allowed and what's not.

From what I've heard, all that does is then instigate drama and ambiguity as to whether you're wearing the uniform "correctly".

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2024, 01:23:08 AM

Quote from: webny99 on September 12, 2024, 04:29:19 PMThat's why just having uniforms is in some ways better than having a dress code (especially a strict dress code) because it removes all the drama and ambiguity around what's allowed and what's not.

From what I've heard, all that does is then instigate drama and ambiguity as to whether you're wearing the uniform "correctly".

Genuinely curious what would constitute an "incorrect" way to wear a uniform. I mean sure there are super minor things like having a button undone or wearing bright colored socks, but generally not a whole lot that rises to the level of teacher involvement unless they're just, as alluded to upthread, out to get the students, and at that point it's a problem with the teacher not a problem with the uniform.

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 12, 2024, 04:55:21 PMI would have made a very big deal out of her having a double standard (which I would have, as I was on the school newspaper staff and I could and would have written a column about it).

Something tells me that may not have gone well either, depending on your framing of the article. LOL.

Most of the cell phone bans are designed not to reduce distractions but to make sure that wrongdoing by schools isn't caught on camera.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 13, 2024, 08:47:36 AMMost of the cell phone bans are designed not to reduce distractions but to make sure that wrongdoing by schools isn't caught on camera.

Legit source?

Last night's news had a piece about mobile phone bans in schools and they naturally had some parents talking about how if there is a true emergency, they want to be able to reach their kids or hear from their kids that they're OK. They then talked to a faculty member who made a pretty good point that's often overlooked—in a true emergency, the school administrators want the kids paying attention to the instructions they're being given, not focusing on their phones sending messages to other people.

Schools exhibit a lot of retaliatory behavior. I know this firsthand.

I was retaliated against by schools when I started fighting back against their abuse.

There's this web of people in our schools, elected and appointed public offices, healthcare, and other organizations that has been colluding with each other for decades. Some of them are the same folks who were around almost 40 years ago, and they're still around, as dangerous as ever.

Also, there is a permanent record. When I was in college, they trotted out things that had happened in middle school.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 13, 2024, 09:55:53 AMAlso, there is a permanent record. When I was in college, they trotted out things that had happened in middle school.

Like Elaine's chart in Seinfeld which said she was difficult?

Quote from: bandit957 on September 13, 2024, 09:51:59 AMSchools exhibit a lot of retaliatory behavior. I know this firsthand.

I was retaliated against by schools when I started fighting back against their abuse.

There's this web of people in our schools, elected and appointed public offices, healthcare, and other organizations that has been colluding with each other for decades. Some of them are the same folks who were around almost 40 years ago, and they're still around, as dangerous as ever.

Are they part of the illuminati?

Or is this just a byproduct of living in a small town where everyone knows everyone?

Quote from: bandit957 on September 13, 2024, 09:55:53 AMAlso, there is a permanent record. When I was in college, they trotted out things that had happened in middle school.

In what context was this "trotted out?" Because, while high school disciplinary records MAY be provided during the admissions process, they rarely are then transferred to the colleges disciplinary record. In fact, I have never heard of that in 30+ years of working in higher education. Unless, of course, they are legal records of some sort.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 13, 2024, 10:32:35 AMOr is this just a byproduct of living in a small town where everyone knows everyone?

It was actually near a major city.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 13, 2024, 10:33:37 AMIn what context was this "trotted out?" Because, while high school disciplinary records MAY be provided during the admissions process, they rarely are then transferred to the colleges disciplinary record. In fact, I have never heard of that in 30+ years of working in higher education. Unless, of course, they are legal records of some sort.

First of all, this is a state that has weird authoritarian practices regarding schools.

The permanent record was invoked when I spoke with a particular office at the university about a situation that was going on at the time on campus. The man there made reference to something that he wouldn't have known about if it wasn't on my permanent record. It wasn't anything I did wrong, but the schools tended to twist things around.

Already, there wasn't any doubt that your permanent record followed you between high schools. I switched schools during high school, and a teacher at the new school told me upfront that she had the record from my old school.

Confidentiality means nothing to these scofflaws.

After the earlier situation at the university, a guy threatened to shoot up the place. He didn't fit my description, but the university tried to pin it on me. It took almost 25 years to prove it wasn't me.

This newspaper has a police report about the incident:

https://dspace.nku.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/20a7ec36-e7f6-43d9-b3a0-f1bafcc6811e/content

It's the report from March 21, 1995. The man involved bore no resemblance to me, and I had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the incident. I don't think I even owned a flannel shirt at the time.

I think I was on campus that day, as I remember seeing police walking through a hallway and peering into rooms, but I didn't see the incident directly.

Quote from: kkt on September 12, 2024, 11:56:01 PMAre students allowed to carry compact mirrors?

I seriously doubt that girls kiss compact mirrors with freshly lipsticked lips.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on September 13, 2024, 12:12:23 PM

Quote from: kkt on September 12, 2024, 11:56:01 PMAre students allowed to carry compact mirrors?

I seriously doubt that girls kiss compact mirrors with freshly lipsticked lips.

Mike

Is that the reason mirrors are banned or are you just making that up?

Quote from: bandit957 on September 13, 2024, 09:55:53 AMAlso, there is a permanent record. When I was in college, they trotted out things that had happened in middle school.

Who?  What?  Wut.

Quote from: mgk920 on September 13, 2024, 12:12:23 PM

Quote from: kkt on September 12, 2024, 11:56:01 PMAre students allowed to carry compact mirrors?

I seriously doubt that girls kiss compact mirrors with freshly lipsticked lips.

Mike

What's the difference between kissing a germy bathroom mirror and licking the wall?

Neither action makes much sense.

Quote from: kkt on September 12, 2024, 11:56:01 PMAre students allowed to carry compact mirrors?

Only if they're trying to avoid getting killed by a basilisk.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 13, 2024, 02:55:51 PMWhat's the difference between kissing a germy bathroom mirror and licking the wall?

Neither action makes much sense.

Great, now I'm thinking about how Poi Poi once posted about how he wanted John Madden to visit his house and lick something else in the bathroom.

I'm thinking as time marches on people will come to believe P13 was in love with the actual John Madden and not Sault Sainte John Madden. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 13, 2024, 08:38:32 PMI'm thinking as time marches on people will come to believe P13 was in love with the actual John Madden and not Sault Sainte John Madden. 

My phrasing of that comment was quite deliberate in that respect.  The implication amused me more.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 13, 2024, 09:51:59 AMSchools exhibit a lot of retaliatory behavior. I know this firsthand.

I was retaliated against by schools when I started fighting back against their abuse.

There's this web of people in our schools, elected and appointed public offices, healthcare, and other organizations that has been colluding with each other for decades. Some of them are the same folks who were around almost 40 years ago, and they're still around, as dangerous as ever.

I feel like if that's something that has been an issue for such a big part of your life you kind of owe it to yourself to move.

I went to school in a small town where I was unpopular, and I imagine I would have remained so as the kids that picked on me grew up to be cops or mayors or whatever it is people that like to pick on others do with their lives in embarrassing small towns. After I graduated high school I moved across the river to a town that was big enough that nobody knew who I was. Never had a problem after that.

Quote from: webny99 on September 13, 2024, 07:46:19 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 13, 2024, 01:23:08 AM

Quote from: webny99 on September 12, 2024, 04:29:19 PMThat's why just having uniforms is in some ways better than having a dress code (especially a strict dress code) because it removes all the drama and ambiguity around what's allowed and what's not.

From what I've heard, all that does is then instigate drama and ambiguity as to whether you're wearing the uniform "correctly".

Genuinely curious what would constitute an "incorrect" way to wear a uniform. I mean sure there are super minor things like having a button undone or wearing bright colored socks, but generally not a whole lot that rises to the level of teacher involvement unless they're just, as alluded to upthread, out to get the students, and at that point it's a problem with the teacher not a problem with the uniform.

Or if the tie is tied with the wrong knot, or if the shirt is too rumpled, or if a girl wears a male uniform, or...

To say nothing of the fact that irritated students are masters of malicious compliance.

Quote from: Molandfreak on September 13, 2024, 01:13:52 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on September 13, 2024, 12:12:23 PM

Quote from: kkt on September 12, 2024, 11:56:01 PMAre students allowed to carry compact mirrors?

I seriously doubt that girls kiss compact mirrors with freshly lipsticked lips.

Mike

Is that the reason mirrors are banned or are you just making that up?

As I mentioned in a post that I made above, female students would kiss wall mirrors with freshly lipsticked lips, making horrible messes, such that custodial staffs would try myriad ways (some well publicized, do a YT search for some of them) to combat it.  Removing the mirrors was the next logical step.

Mike

People used to wipe boogers on mirrors when I was in school.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 14, 2024, 11:11:21 AMPeople used to wipe boogers on mirrors when I was in school.

"You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't wipe your friends on the wall."

Quote from: mgk920 on September 14, 2024, 11:10:19 AMAs I mentioned in a post that I made above, female students would kiss wall mirrors with freshly lipsticked lips, making horrible messes, such that custodial staffs would try myriad ways (some well publicized, do a YT search for some of them) to combat it.  Removing the mirrors was the next logical step.

It strikes me that the best answer might simply be to say "such messes won't be cleaned up and if you persist in doing such things, we won't clean the mirror at all and you'll have to live with it for the rest of the school year".

Is kissing mirrors something kids did back in the day?  Maybe that is an east coast thing?  I queried my wife, and she apparently never engaged in the practice during her K-12 tenure.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 14, 2024, 03:48:15 PMIs kissing mirrors something kids did back in the day?  Maybe that is an east coast thing?  I queried my wife, and she apparently never engaged in the practice during her K-12 tenure.

If you are in love with yourself? :hmmm:

In a mirror, you can kiss yourself only on the lips.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 14, 2024, 05:31:38 AM

Quote from: bandit957 on September 13, 2024, 09:51:59 AMSchools exhibit a lot of retaliatory behavior. I know this firsthand.

I was retaliated against by schools when I started fighting back against their abuse.

There's this web of people in our schools, elected and appointed public offices, healthcare, and other organizations that has been colluding with each other for decades. Some of them are the same folks who were around almost 40 years ago, and they're still around, as dangerous as ever.

I feel like if that's something that has been an issue for such a big part of your life you kind of owe it to yourself to move.

I went to school in a small town where I was unpopular, and I imagine I would have remained so as the kids that picked on me grew up to be cops or mayors or whatever it is people that like to pick on others do with their lives in embarrassing small towns. After I graduated high school I moved across the river to a town that was big enough that nobody knew who I was. Never had a problem after that.

He's been complaining about his high school experience for years. Like way back in the m.t.r. days.

I think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Yes. Lots of history of kids shattering mirrors to make shivs.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 15, 2024, 11:30:35 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Yes. Lots of history of kids shattering mirrors to make shivs.

When I searched for an example of such an incident I didn't find anything.  I did find an example of a kid using a ninja sword though:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czddg1zvl34o

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

This is the nonsense logic that school administrators use. So congrats?

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 15, 2024, 11:50:30 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

This is the nonsense logic that school administrators use. So congrats?

I'd argue it is just one of those things people throw "safety branding" upon to sell it.  I have this theory that you can sell almost any nonsensical thing you want to do nowadays if you brand it somehow as a safety thing.

Is 7 years of bad luck not enough?

Kissing the bathroom mirrors pisses off the custodian.

Doesn't the janitor have to clean the mirrors daily anyways? 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 11:55:47 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 15, 2024, 11:50:30 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

This is the nonsense logic that school administrators use. So congrats?

I'd argue it is just one of those things people throw "safety branding" upon to sell it.  I have this theory that you can sell almost any nonsensical thing you want to do nowadays if you brand it somehow as a safety thing.

Safety and "protecting the children".  Two things that immediately shut off critical thinking in most people and which politicians and administrators can use to justify just about anything.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 15, 2024, 11:30:35 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Yes. Lots of history of kids shattering mirrors to make shivs.

Right, because kids are never destructive.

Only makes the headlines if there's a gun involved.

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 02:31:38 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 15, 2024, 11:30:35 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Yes. Lots of history of kids shattering mirrors to make shivs.

Right, because kids are never destructive.

Only makes the headlines if there's a gun involved.

Indeed, I got an A in my Anti-Terrorism college class final because nobody ever heard of this incident:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Two takeaways for me:

-  There always have been awful people who are willing to do awful things.
-  Awful people will find a way to do awful things if motivated enough.  They likely cannot ever be fully identified, mitigated or stopped.

Wait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:46:57 PMWait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Admittedly I can't find an actual example of a student using a broken mirror as a stabbing weapon. I would imagine the theory is that by deleting school mirrors that it would prevent someone from using a broken piece as a weapon.

My point is that if someone is willing to go as far as using broken glass as a weapon that they'll find alternate means.  In the case of Bath School Disaster the bombs were constructed from everyday goods.  Similarly all sorts of stabbing devices can be constructed for everyday household items.   Crazy finds a way around security theater.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 04:54:19 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:46:57 PMWait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Admittedly I can't find an actual example of a student using a broken mirror as a stabbing weapon. I would imagine the theory is that by deleting school mirrors that it would prevent someone from using a broken piece as a weapon.

My point is that if someone is willing to go as far as using broken glass as a weapon that they'll find alternate means.  In the case of Bath School Disaster the bombs were constructed from everyday goods.  Similarly all sorts of stabbing devices can be constructed for everyday household items. 

I thought we were talking about students doing harmful things, rather than bad actors from the outside.

Suffice it to say that bad things will always happen by bad eggs and there has to be a line between reasonable rules of conduct and oppressive and ineffective policy.

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:56:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 04:54:19 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:46:57 PMWait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Admittedly I can't find an actual example of a student using a broken mirror as a stabbing weapon. I would imagine the theory is that by deleting school mirrors that it would prevent someone from using a broken piece as a weapon.

My point is that if someone is willing to go as far as using broken glass as a weapon that they'll find alternate means.  In the case of Bath School Disaster the bombs were constructed from everyday goods.  Similarly all sorts of stabbing devices can be constructed for everyday household items. 

I thought we were talking about students doing harmful things, rather than bad actors from the outside.

Suffice it to say that bad things will always happen by bad eggs and there has to be a line between reasonable rules of conduct and oppressive and ineffective policy.

While not a student, Andrew Kehoe wasn't an outsider.  He had free access to the school facilities given he was part of the school board.  Likewise a student could probably fly under the radar, albeit probably not quite to that extent.  It was the most extreme example of a mass killing in a school that I could think of that didn't involve conventional weaponry like firearms.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 05:06:33 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:56:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 04:54:19 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:46:57 PMWait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Admittedly I can't find an actual example of a student using a broken mirror as a stabbing weapon. I would imagine the theory is that by deleting school mirrors that it would prevent someone from using a broken piece as a weapon.

My point is that if someone is willing to go as far as using broken glass as a weapon that they'll find alternate means.  In the case of Bath School Disaster the bombs were constructed from everyday goods.  Similarly all sorts of stabbing devices can be constructed for everyday household items. 

I thought we were talking about students doing harmful things, rather than bad actors from the outside.

Suffice it to say that bad things will always happen by bad eggs and there has to be a line between reasonable rules of conduct and oppressive and ineffective policy.

While not a student, Andrew Kehoe wasn't an outsider.  He had free access to the school facilities given he was part of the school board.  Likewise a student could probably fly under the radar, albeit probably not quite to that extent.  It was the most extreme example of a mass killing in a school that I could think of that didn't involve conventional weaponry like firearms.

So...what school bans would be proposed against students due to a school board member that goes nuts after losing an election?

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 05:15:08 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 05:06:33 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:56:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 04:54:19 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:46:57 PMWait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Admittedly I can't find an actual example of a student using a broken mirror as a stabbing weapon. I would imagine the theory is that by deleting school mirrors that it would prevent someone from using a broken piece as a weapon.

My point is that if someone is willing to go as far as using broken glass as a weapon that they'll find alternate means.  In the case of Bath School Disaster the bombs were constructed from everyday goods.  Similarly all sorts of stabbing devices can be constructed for everyday household items. 

I thought we were talking about students doing harmful things, rather than bad actors from the outside.

Suffice it to say that bad things will always happen by bad eggs and there has to be a line between reasonable rules of conduct and oppressive and ineffective policy.

While not a student, Andrew Kehoe wasn't an outsider.  He had free access to the school facilities given he was part of the school board.  Likewise a student could probably fly under the radar, albeit probably not quite to that extent.  It was the most extreme example of a mass killing in a school that I could think of that didn't involve conventional weaponry like firearms.

So...what school bans would be proposed against students due to a school board member that goes nuts after losing an election?

I would say that it wouldn't matter what they did/did not ban.  If someone has that much hate and determination there isn't much anyone can do to stop them.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 05:06:33 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:56:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 04:54:19 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:46:57 PMWait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Admittedly I can't find an actual example of a student using a broken mirror as a stabbing weapon. I would imagine the theory is that by deleting school mirrors that it would prevent someone from using a broken piece as a weapon.

My point is that if someone is willing to go as far as using broken glass as a weapon that they'll find alternate means.  In the case of Bath School Disaster the bombs were constructed from everyday goods.  Similarly all sorts of stabbing devices can be constructed for everyday household items. 

I thought we were talking about students doing harmful things, rather than bad actors from the outside.

Suffice it to say that bad things will always happen by bad eggs and there has to be a line between reasonable rules of conduct and oppressive and ineffective policy.

While not a student, Andrew Kehoe wasn't an outsider.  He had free access to the school facilities given he was part of the school board.  Likewise a student could probably fly under the radar, albeit probably not quite to that extent.  It was the most extreme example of a mass killing in a school that I could think of that didn't involve conventional weaponry like firearms.

It's kinda the worst if you include firearms as well.

I will say that in cases like this adults are much better at flying under the radar and being subtle than teens are. So many times adults do stupid stuff we get the neighbors that "couldn't believe they could do this" yet most teens telegraph their viciousness well in advance. The problem is identifying those that have morals and are merely angry as hell versus the ones who will go that step that involves no going back.

Quote from: SectorZ on September 15, 2024, 05:23:49 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 05:06:33 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:56:19 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 04:54:19 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 15, 2024, 04:46:57 PMWait, how are we going from kids smashing mirrors to make stabbing weapons to a nutcase in MI bombing a school?

Admittedly I can't find an actual example of a student using a broken mirror as a stabbing weapon. I would imagine the theory is that by deleting school mirrors that it would prevent someone from using a broken piece as a weapon.

My point is that if someone is willing to go as far as using broken glass as a weapon that they'll find alternate means.  In the case of Bath School Disaster the bombs were constructed from everyday goods.  Similarly all sorts of stabbing devices can be constructed for everyday household items. 

I thought we were talking about students doing harmful things, rather than bad actors from the outside.

Suffice it to say that bad things will always happen by bad eggs and there has to be a line between reasonable rules of conduct and oppressive and ineffective policy.

While not a student, Andrew Kehoe wasn't an outsider.  He had free access to the school facilities given he was part of the school board.  Likewise a student could probably fly under the radar, albeit probably not quite to that extent.  It was the most extreme example of a mass killing in a school that I could think of that didn't involve conventional weaponry like firearms.

It's kinda the worst if you include firearms as well.

I will say that in cases like this adults are much better at flying under the radar and being subtle than teens are. So many times adults do stupid stuff we get the neighbors that "couldn't believe they could do this" yet most teens telegraph their viciousness well in advance. The problem is identifying those that have morals and are merely angry as hell versus the ones who will go that step that involves no going back.

And that's just it, as a whole public institutions like schools do a completely shit job at identifying and dealing with violence prone individuals.  Rather than attempting to find a way to adapt usually they resort to security theater measures.  It is easier to punish everyone rather than deal with the root problem.  Like you said, kids tend to telegraph their intentions and feelings more than adults.

FWIW security theater placates adults (parents in particular) over safety concerns.  It doesn't matter if the actual safety is illusory if it appears as though something is being done.   

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 15, 2024, 11:30:35 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Yes. Lots of history of kids shattering mirrors to make shivs.

Maybe we ought to board up all the windows. Because they can be broken, can make a mess, and the pieces used as weapons. Right?

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 01:39:20 PMDoesn't the janitor have to clean the mirrors daily anyways? 

Sure. But they shouldn't have to scrub off greasy colored paste left behind by lipstick.

Still, I wonder just how big of a problem this is.

I seem to recall a story about a janitor dipping his squeegee into the toilet to clean the mirrors while someone could see him. (And then cleaned it for real after the watcher had left.) Word got around quickly. No more kissing mirrors.

Quote from: GaryV on September 15, 2024, 05:59:31 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 15, 2024, 11:30:35 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Yes. Lots of history of kids shattering mirrors to make shivs.

Maybe we ought to board up all the windows. Because they can be broken, can make a mess, and the pieces used as weapons. Right?

Or adding windows to non-private parts of the bathroom to monitor what is happening, like what is being done around here.

Quote from: GaryV on September 15, 2024, 06:02:52 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 15, 2024, 01:39:20 PMDoesn't the janitor have to clean the mirrors daily anyways? 

Sure. But they shouldn't have to scrub off greasy colored paste left behind by lipstick.

Still, I wonder just how big of a problem this is.

I seem to recall a story about a janitor dipping his squeegee into the toilet to clean the mirrors while someone could see him. (And then cleaned it for real after the watcher had left.) Word got around quickly. No more kissing mirrors.

That would be in the silly video a few posts above yours.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 14, 2024, 11:11:21 AMPeople used to wipe boogers on mirrors when I was in school.

Which just proves my point about kissing mirrors.

Google returns plenty of goods for "unbreakable mirror" request. They are likely easy to scratch though. 

Contrast today versus the conditions of the 1970s, and it's horrifying just how authoritarian our society has become.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 20, 2024, 03:35:30 PMContrast today versus the conditions of the 1970s, and it's horrifying just how authoritarian our society has become.

In some ways, yes. In many ways, no. For instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Hm.  Back then, I think they were happy with the status quo of the LGBTQ community being shoved to the barely seen fringe.

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Sure they did.

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

"Genocide" assumes elimination of genetic pool ...

Quote from: Rothman on September 21, 2024, 11:58:00 PM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Hm.  Back then, I think they were happy with the status quo of the LGBTQ community being shoved to the barely seen fringe.

There certainly are advantages to being invisible rather than having a target on your back...

I feel like there have been quite a few changes over the last decade in particular.  For example, even those who weren't fond of trans people tended to have a begrudging tolerance of those who were post-op; that's gone now.

Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2024, 03:27:09 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 21, 2024, 11:58:00 PM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Hm.  Back then, I think they were happy with the status quo of the LGBTQ community being shoved to the barely seen fringe.

There certainly are advantages to being invisible rather than having a target on your back...

I feel like there have been quite a few changes over the last decade in particular.  For example, even those who weren't fond of trans people tended to have a begrudging tolerance of those who were post-op; that's gone now.

I think people are engaging in a overly rosy view of what people considered acceptable in the past.

Quote from: GaryV on September 15, 2024, 05:59:31 PM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on September 15, 2024, 11:30:35 AM

Quote from: formulanone on September 15, 2024, 10:29:33 AMI think you all are missing the point; glass mirrors can be shattered easily, and the glass becomes (1) a messy nuisance (2) makes authority look like crap (3) can be used as a sharp weapon. They probably think more students will waste time in front of functioning mirrors, with regards to makeup and hair.

Schools aren't doing this to improve morale, not matter how they package it.

Yes. Lots of history of kids shattering mirrors to make shivs.

Maybe we ought to board up all the windows. Because they can be broken, can make a mess, and the pieces used as weapons. Right?

You may be surprised to see how few windows are used in modern school construction. The few you see are usually double-glazed or have safety wire.

Quote from: formulanone on September 22, 2024, 05:17:13 PMYou may be surprised to see how few windows are used in modern school construction. The few you see are usually double-glazed or have safety wire.

They're basically prisons.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 22, 2024, 05:54:38 PM

Quote from: formulanone on September 22, 2024, 05:17:13 PMYou may be surprised to see how few windows are used in modern school construction. The few you see are usually double-glazed or have safety wire.

They're basically prisons.

"You must go here or face consequences and you must follow rules and you must do this for 12 years..."  I've always found comparisons to prisons to be more apt than not.

Quote from: Rothman on September 22, 2024, 06:16:18 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on September 22, 2024, 05:54:38 PM

Quote from: formulanone on September 22, 2024, 05:17:13 PMYou may be surprised to see how few windows are used in modern school construction. The few you see are usually double-glazed or have safety wire.

They're basically prisons.

"You must go here or face consequences and you must follow rules and you must do this for 12 years..."  I've always found comparisons to prisons to be more apt than not.

There's something very institutional about both; typically overbuilt for time and the elements, used for forms of containment,  while keeping visitors funneled into a restricted ingress/egress.

Yeah, schools used to be more grandiose multi-level structures in cities or they looked like factories in rural spots. I guess one's feelings about school are always going to color the feelings about the structure.

Quote from: Rothman on September 22, 2024, 06:16:18 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on September 22, 2024, 05:54:38 PM

Quote from: formulanone on September 22, 2024, 05:17:13 PMYou may be surprised to see how few windows are used in modern school construction. The few you see are usually double-glazed or have safety wire.

They're basically prisons.

"You must go here or face consequences and you must follow rules and you must do this for 12 years..."  I've always found comparisons to prisons to be more apt than not.

You didn't have kindergarten?

I have never compared schools to prisons...because it's a silly comparison.

Quote from: Big John on September 22, 2024, 06:32:30 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 22, 2024, 06:16:18 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on September 22, 2024, 05:54:38 PM

Quote from: formulanone on September 22, 2024, 05:17:13 PMYou may be surprised to see how few windows are used in modern school construction. The few you see are usually double-glazed or have safety wire.

They're basically prisons.

"You must go here or face consequences and you must follow rules and you must do this for 12 years..."  I've always found comparisons to prisons to be more apt than not.

You didn't have kindergarten?

I skipped kindergarten.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 06:38:39 PMI have never compared schools to prisons...because it's a silly comparison.

The physical security layouts a lot of newer schools use take many cues from prison complexes.  Keeping people out versus keeping them in has a lot of design  similarities. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 22, 2024, 08:29:50 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 06:38:39 PMI have never compared schools to prisons...because it's a silly comparison.

The physical security layouts a lot of newer schools use take many cues from prison complexes.  Keeping people out versus keeping them in has a lot of design  similarities. 

I guess. So are office buildings and other public buildings. But what goes on inside is completely different.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 08:43:59 PMI guess. So are office buildings and other public buildings. But what goes on inside is completely different.

These days, they're pretty much the same.

Quote from: bandit957 on September 22, 2024, 08:45:06 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 08:43:59 PMI guess. So are office buildings and other public buildings. But what goes on inside is completely different.

These days, they're pretty much the same.

Not really.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 04:33:16 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2024, 03:27:09 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 21, 2024, 11:58:00 PM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Hm.  Back then, I think they were happy with the status quo of the LGBTQ community being shoved to the barely seen fringe.

There certainly are advantages to being invisible rather than having a target on your back...

I feel like there have been quite a few changes over the last decade in particular.  For example, even those who weren't fond of trans people tended to have a begrudging tolerance of those who were post-op; that's gone now.

I think people are engaging in a overly rosy view of what people considered acceptable in the past.

"Considered acceptable" and "what the state will reasonably be expected to punish for those who live stealth" are two completely different things.  For instance, last I checked, banning transgender people from using public bathrooms (as has happened in Florida and other states) is a recent invention.

Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2024, 09:14:13 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 04:33:16 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2024, 03:27:09 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 21, 2024, 11:58:00 PM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Hm.  Back then, I think they were happy with the status quo of the LGBTQ community being shoved to the barely seen fringe.

There certainly are advantages to being invisible rather than having a target on your back...

I feel like there have been quite a few changes over the last decade in particular.  For example, even those who weren't fond of trans people tended to have a begrudging tolerance of those who were post-op; that's gone now.

I think people are engaging in a overly rosy view of what people considered acceptable in the past.

"Considered acceptable" and "what the state will reasonably be expected to punish for those who live stealth" are two completely different things.  For instance, last I checked, banning transgender people from using public bathrooms (as has happened in Florida and other states) is a recent invention.

And you think that's because people were just fine with transgender people before??? Yikes.

Even the 1980s didn't have a high degree of societal tolerance.  There was way too many people who were causally okay with overt normalized day to day bigotry.  As bad as things can be sometimes now, it only gets worse the further back in time you go.

Quote from: Big John on September 22, 2024, 06:32:30 PMYou didn't have kindergarten?

I didn't go to kindergarten. I was highly advanced when I was of kindergarten age. I could read when I was 2, and I was smarter than most of the other kids (which isn't a flex, I went to school in a small redneck town in the South) and I would have been bored silly in kindergarten. My parents wanted me to skip kindergarten and go right to 1st grade, but the school district wouldn't allow it, so I ended up going to a tutor. Classes with the tutor were 1 hour 3 days a week and 2 hours one day. They taught us fairly advanced math, and I learned to write in cursive in that class. It was cool to only have an hour or two of school each day, and only 4 days a week. I learned a lot more with the tutor than I ever would have in kindergarten. I was a smart kid, but unfortunately I didn't get any smarter than I was then.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 22, 2024, 09:40:28 PMEven the 1980s didn't have a high degree of societal tolerance.  There was way too many people who were causally okay with overt normalized day to day bigotry.  As bad as things can be sometimes now, it only gets worse the further back in time you go.

I went to school in the 1980s, and I was treated very poorly. The bullies treated anybody who was different in any way like garbage, and I'm talking physical violence and threats of violence. I don't know why they hated me so much, but it's probably because I was smarter then most of the kids (Again, that's not a flex...) and they resented me for it. It's a form of bigotry. There were no minorities in the redneck school I went to, so they didn't have any black kids to pick on, so they picked on me. They might have thought I was gay, because I got called a "biscuit" a lot. This abuse gave me PTSD, and it still affects me to this day. Bullies need to be punished harshly and thoroughly.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 09:26:11 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2024, 09:14:13 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 22, 2024, 04:33:16 PM

Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2024, 03:27:09 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 21, 2024, 11:58:00 PM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on September 21, 2024, 07:56:38 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on September 20, 2024, 04:08:19 PMFor instance, I think being gay in the 1970s would have been a lot harder than it is now.

At least in the 1970s politicians didn't openly call for a LGBTQ genocide.

Hm.  Back then, I think they were happy with the status quo of the LGBTQ community being shoved to the barely seen fringe.

There certainly are advantages to being invisible rather than having a target on your back...

I feel like there have been quite a few changes over the last decade in particular.  For example, even those who weren't fond of trans people tended to have a begrudging tolerance of those who were post-op; that's gone now.

I think people are engaging in a overly rosy view of what people considered acceptable in the past.

"Considered acceptable" and "what the state will reasonably be expected to punish for those who live stealth" are two completely different things.  For instance, last I checked, banning transgender people from using public bathrooms (as has happened in Florida and other states) is a recent invention.

And you think that's because people were just fine with transgender people before??? Yikes.

And where, exactly, did I say that?  Don't extrapolate beyond that which I say.  First of all, yes, there was a bit more tolerance (which is not the same as "just fine", as tolerance does not imply acceptance, even though the two are often incorrectly used as synonyms) of post-op trans women in places like bathrooms and prisons that did not extend to pre-op trans women, which is now gone, as evidenced by recent restrictions passed in red states having no exception for any trans women regardless of where they are in transition (likewise, prior to recent total bans, many women's sports allowed trans women who were on hormone replacement therapy for a certain period of time).  Society has shifted as trans people became more visible and lots of people who previously had no opinion now have one.  Likewise, increased awareness makes it more difficult for all LGBT people to live under the radar; a trans person who mostly but not completely passes is now more likely to be "clocked" rather than have someone think "there's something different about them, but I can't figure out what" and a same-sex couple is less likely to be assumed to be good friends absent obvious PDA than before, too.

Are you not at all familiar with how this issue has evolved?  In 2016, North Carolina passed HB2 into law, restricting transgender access to bathrooms, to national outcry and boycotts.  Now, in the past four years, multiple states have passed even more restrictive bans, and nobody cares.

Also, and more importantly, the argument was about government actions, not social acceptance.  This was the  entire point of the comment you quoted, in fact, which you seem to have missed!  Note that Liliana was talking about politicians (and influential politicians, at that).

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 22, 2024, 09:40:28 PMEven the 1980s didn't have a high degree of societal tolerance.  There was way too many people who were causally okay with overt normalized day to day bigotry.  As bad as things can be sometimes now, it only gets worse the further back in time you go.

Quite frankly, I care more about what the government can do to me than what individual people think.  Bigots who are empowered by government legislation that supports them are much more dangerous than bigots who are powerless and can't legally do anything more than yell slurs.

Bullies need to be required to register, like sex offenders.

Quote from: bugo on September 22, 2024, 11:03:38 PM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 22, 2024, 09:40:28 PMEven the 1980s didn't have a high degree of societal tolerance.  There was way too many people who were causally okay with overt normalized day to day bigotry.  As bad as things can be sometimes now, it only gets worse the further back in time you go.

I went to school in the 1980s, and I was treated very poorly. The bullies treated anybody who was different in any way like garbage, and I'm talking physical violence and threats of violence. I don't know why they hated me so much, but it's probably because I was smarter then most of the kids (Again, that's not a flex...) and they resented me for it. It's a form of bigotry. There were no minorities in the redneck school I went to, so they didn't have any black kids to pick on, so they picked on me. They might have thought I was gay, because I got called a "biscuit" a lot. This abuse gave me PTSD, and it still affects me to this day. Bullies need to be punished harshly and thoroughly.

At the time being a bully or jock (if not both) meant you were atop the school social pecking order.  I recall hiding the fact that we owned a computer, and an NES console many times to protect my social standing.  Intelligence (being a nerd) was not going to get you much beyond ridicule in the 1980s K-12 environment.

Thw "f" slur against gay men was much more common and accepted in the 1980s. "Money for Nothing" by Dire Straits (1985) is an example.

And, young men were taught that if a gay man ever made a pass at you, you were to punch them.

Quote from: Rothman on September 22, 2024, 11:15:24 PMThw "f" slur against gay men was much more common and accepted in the 1980s. "Money for Nothing" by Dire Straits (1985) is an example.

"One in a Million" by Guns and Roses and the Cross Canadian Ragweed version of "Boys from Oklahoma" use the word.

QuoteAnd, young men were taught that if a gay man ever made a pass at you, you were to punch them.

I find it highly flattering when a guy hits on me. It makes me feel good. I don't know why other guys get so mad about it. I'm secure enough and gay men are not a threat to me.

Quote from: Rothman on September 22, 2024, 11:15:24 PMThw "f" slur against gay men was much more common and accepted in the 1980s. "Money for Nothing" by Dire Straits (1985) is an example.

And, young men were taught that if a gay man ever made a pass at you, you were to punch them.

Really?  I must have been sick the day they taught that.  When I received a pass, I turned it down with a "no thank you".  I had no idea I was supposed to hit him!

The academic parts of kindergarten aren't the real point.  It's about:  hands to yourself, do what the class is doing, follow directions, line up in an orderly fashion when going to another room rather than getting spread out all over the hallways, share, treat your classmates as friends.  Yes, also students come in to kindergarten with vastly different competence.  Some are reading and writing, others are not even recognizing the letters.  Some can do addition and subtraction or even more, others have no idea.

Quote from: kkt on September 23, 2024, 03:19:53 AM.... Yes, also students come in to kindergarten with vastly different competence. Some are reading and writing, others are not even recognizing the letters. Some can do addition and subtraction or even more, others have no idea.

This is one of the things I remember well from kindergarten. My parents always gave my kindergarten teacher a lot of credit for recognizing which of us could read (three of us could) and for giving us different assignments from the rest of the kids. I remember most of the kids used a book that employed a sort of hybrid rebus system. A "rebus" puzzle is the type that uses pictograms to represent words. I recall the book those kids were using used pictograms to substitute for some words and then gradually introduced the words to replace them, but I don't remember much else about it because the other two kids and I didn't use that book—our teacher assigned us the first-grade reading curriculum. All three of us finished the entire set of three first-grade reading books by the end of kindergarten. (I recall in first grade I spent half the day in the second-grade classroom and then in second grade I spent half the day in the third-grade classroom, basically because the teachers were trying to find something to challenge me and keep me from being bored.)

For some reason, I remember how when I was in kindergarten I would see the "short stories" some of the second-graders would write that invariably began with "Ones upon a time." Even as a kindergarten kid I knew that was not how you spell "once." I guess they were sounding it out and simply adding an "s" sound to the end of "one." In retrospect it sort of surprises me that they didn't spell it "wuns" or some such (simply because if you were sounding out "one," it seems more likely you'd come up with "wun" than "one").