The unsigned opinion had no dissents.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/tiktok-ban-supreme-court-ruling-bytedance-sell-rcna187150 (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/tiktok-ban-supreme-court-ruling-bytedance-sell-rcna187150)
I don't quite understand why people are switching to Rednote, another Chinese company. Won't it get banned, too?
If the Congress were actually concerned about data, then they should regulate that, because nothing is stopping China from getting data from the same data brokers that Facebook, Twitter, etc. sell to. And if Congress were actually concerned about China getting data, then this just backfired horribly, because everyone just migrated to RedNote, which unlike TikTok, is actually a Chinese company.
Sweet, my wife won't be able to bother me anymore with videos about what people think drones actually are.
I haven't been following this, because I have nothing to do with TikTok.
But it does seem at first glance that the bill's opponents are calling it a free speech issue, whereas its proponents are worried that the Chinese government would control what content is seen by users—which sounds a lot like a free speech issue to me.
The main thing that interests me is what ramifications it will have for the Washington Capitals. They have a TikTok patch on their road uniforms as the sweater sponsor. (The home uniforms are sponsored by Caesars Sportsbook, but NHL rules prohibit advertising sports betting on the road uniforms.)
Quote from: hotdogPi on January 17, 2025, 12:39:42 PMI don't quite understand why people are switching to Rednote, another Chinese company. Won't it get banned, too?
With the way the law is written, at least the ones that are also owned by ByteDance. The law itself designates all Bytedance affiliates as "foreign adversary controlled applications" covered by the law. Other applications based directly or indirectly in mainland China can be designated "foreign adversary controlled applications", but that's not automatic and might take at least 270 days to take effect.
Would be safer for TikTokers to migrate to a U.S. company like Facebook/Instagram/Google____, even if they are also disgusting.
I don't do social media. My comments above draw on today's Supreme Court decision, https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf, which I read within minutes after it came out this morning.
Quote from: oscar on January 17, 2025, 01:15:29 PM.... My comments above draw on today's Supreme Court decision, https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-656_ca7d.pdf, which I read within minutes after it came out this morning.
I did as well. I was amused by the reference to Mr. Justice Frankfurter's observation about the need to be cautious so as not to "embarrass the future." It made me think of the early 1980s opinion in which the Court constantly used the term "VTRs"—"Video Tape Recorders"—to refer to the machines we all know as "VCRs."
Quote from: 1995hoo on January 17, 2025, 12:55:14 PMThe main thing that interests me is what ramifications it will have for the Washington Capitals. They have a TikTok patch on their road uniforms as the sweater sponsor. (The home uniforms are sponsored by Caesars Sportsbook, but NHL rules prohibit advertising sports betting on the road uniforms.)
What's the logic in that?
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 12:45:49 PMI haven't been following this, because I have nothing to do with TikTok.
But it does seem at first glance that the bill's opponents are calling it a free speech issue, whereas its proponents are worried that the Chinese government would control what content is seen by users—which sounds a lot like a free speech issue to me.
It's not the worry about the ChiComs controlling what is seen, but the misuse of user data by said ChiCom government. I don't have TikTok, but from what I understand, you sign away your rights to your firstborn child when you agree to their terms of service. In other words, you are giving all kinds of information that's on your phone to the ChiComs.
Quote from: oscar on January 17, 2025, 01:15:29 PMWould be safer for TikTokers to migrate to a U.S. company like Facebook/Instagram/Google____, even if they are also disgusting.
That's what I don't understand about the allure of TikTok. What does it do that you can't do on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, X, or any other platform that allows video streaming or video uploads?
My understanding of the law is that it doesn't ban TikTok itself, or access to the service by current users, but it bans the app's future availability on app stores. So if you download the app by Sunday, you're good and can still continue to use it.
The fact that ByteDance wasn't willing to sell TikTok to an American corporation for boatloads of money tells me that there was indeed nefarious intent regarding ByteDance's use of the data it acquires from users' cellphones.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2025, 02:07:50 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on January 17, 2025, 12:55:14 PMThe main thing that interests me is what ramifications it will have for the Washington Capitals. They have a TikTok patch on their road uniforms as the sweater sponsor. (The home uniforms are sponsored by Caesars Sportsbook, but NHL rules prohibit advertising sports betting on the road uniforms.)
What's the logic in that?
....
My understanding, based on something I read in the Athletic when the Caps first announced the Caesars sponsorship, is that the league is concerned about not all states and provinces having the same laws on sports betting. By definition, a team ordinarily wears its home uniforms in a single jurisdiction—the location of its home arena (in this case, the District of Columbia, where sports betting is legal and is the subject of an incessant parade of TV ads). But it wears its road uniforms in a great variety of places (in this case, 18 states and 5 provinces). From what I understand, the concern is that if a state or province doesn't allow sports betting, or doesn't allow advertising on sports betting, it would be problematic for a team to wear a patch identifying a sportsbook as a uniform sponsor when it plays in such a jurisdiction. Hence the restriction.
I'm guessing that someone in Silicon Valley will come up with an app functionally identical to TikTok faster than you can say "Jack Robinson"
Ban might not even happen. 47 doesn't want it to happen and he takes office Monday.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 12:45:49 PMI haven't been following this, because I have nothing to do with TikTok.
But it does seem at first glance that the bill's opponents are calling it a free speech issue, whereas its proponents are worried that the Chinese government would control what content is seen by users—which sounds a lot like a free speech issue to me.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2025, 02:07:50 PMIt's not the worry about the ChiComs controlling what is seen, but the misuse of user data by said ChiCom government. I don't have TikTok, but from what I understand, you sign away your rights to your firstborn child when you agree to their terms of service. In other words, you are giving all kinds of information that's on your phone to the ChiComs.
... but ...
Quote from: the article linked to in the OPThe Justice Department had raised two key issues in defending the law: that the Chinese government could exert control over what content users see in order to influence public opinion, and that it could collect sensitive data on millions of American users.
Quote from: oscar on January 17, 2025, 01:15:29 PMWould be safer for TikTokers to migrate to a U.S. company like Facebook/Instagram/Google____, even if they are also disgusting.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2025, 02:07:50 PMThat's what I don't understand about the allure of TikTok. What does it do that you can't do on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, X, or any other platform that allows video streaming or video uploads?
It's less about what it can or cannot do - but what it does do, it does better. And it helps that it's not owned by aspiring oligarchs.
QuoteMy understanding of the law is that it doesn't ban TikTok itself, or access to the service by current users, but it bans the app's future availability on app stores. So if you download the app by Sunday, you're good and can still continue to use it.
Yes, but since it can't/won't be updated, as OS's are updated the app will eventually become unusable.
QuoteThe fact that ByteDance wasn't willing to sell TikTok to an American corporation for boatloads of money tells me that there was indeed nefarious intent regarding ByteDance's use of the data it acquires from users' cellphones.
ByteDance is not Chinese-owned or run. The company is owned jointly by non-Chinese investment groups, employees and the company's founder; three of the five Board members are American (and the other two aren't Chinese); and it's not headquartered in China (Santa Monica and Singapore). The data is stored on American soil.
That's not to say the people that do run it don't have nefarious intent with the data, but not any more so than any other corporation who does any significant portion of their business online. I think Zuckerberg has demonstrated much more "nefarious" intent than ByteDance. After all, Facebook started as a "hot-or-not" site, and his recent behavior seems to indicate he's reverting to form (or it's never changed, but he's no longer afraid of that being his public-facing persona).
If it were really about data security, then Congress would be focused on the many, many large American corporations who have had data breaches over the years.
https://techcrunch.com/2025/01/15/unitedhealth-hid-its-change-healthcare-data-breach-notice-for-months/ (https://techcrunch.com/2025/01/15/unitedhealth-hid-its-change-healthcare-data-breach-notice-for-months/)
https://www.upguard.com/blog/biggest-data-breaches-us (https://www.upguard.com/blog/biggest-data-breaches-us)
I'm magnitudes of order more worried that Wells Fargo has allowed my Social Security number, PIN code, or other financial information leak out to a individual or small group of criminals than I am that a foreign government knows I like to watch short-form videos about giraffes, puppies, and musical theatre.
It's also about congressional hypocrisy - numerous politicians are in favor of the ban, in spite of being on the platform, and in several instances utilizing the app's ability to coalesce movements and trends to build a popular following (Jeff Johnson is one of the most egregious examples of this).
But IMO, it's mostly because TikTok, more than any of the other social media platforms, has demonstrated the ability to get non-corporate-based news (some relatively independent, others with agendas across the political spectrum) into the public discourse, to build communities among marginalized groups, and to show the potential to be an organizing space for change.
TikTok is a threat, not to individual American's data, but to the rich and powerful.
My spit-ball opinion is that it's become a white elephant: politicians don't want to ban it, but nobody wants to come forward and say they don't care about the Chinese government having our personal data and influencing elections, so they keep having to deal with it.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 03:02:04 PMMy spit-ball opinion is that it's become a white elephant: politicians don't want to ban it, but nobody wants to come forward and say they don't care about the Chinese government having our personal data and influencing elections, so they keep having to deal with it.
Given how many people have been flocking to a competitor app that doesn't even have an English version and have led to people starting to learn some Mandarin in order to use it properly, which I'm sure is what the US government wanted far less than this ongoing TikTok migraine, clearly people don't seem to care.
Not to drag too much politics into this, but I think there is a fairly stark discrepancy in how older Americans and younger Americans view China, with older ones being more conditioned to view China as an enemy, and younger people not necessarily embracing China but also not being interested in continuing the older generation's anti-CCP battles.
I'm a little lost on what TikTok is even about? My wife hasn't given me a glowing assessment given what she sends me. Can anyone expound what is actually good about the platform?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 04:00:04 PMI'm a little lost on what TikTok is even about? My wife hasn't given me a glowing assessment given what she sends me. Can anyone expound what is actually good about the platform?
It was kind of the spiritual successor to Vine, these short videos about basically any topics that you just roll through one to the next.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on January 17, 2025, 04:07:59 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 04:00:04 PMI'm a little lost on what TikTok is even about? My wife hasn't given me a glowing assessment given what she sends me. Can anyone expound what is actually good about the platform?
It was kind of the spiritual successor to Vine, these short videos about basically any topics that you just roll through one to the next.
That's it? Can't you pretty much do the same thing on every other social media platform now?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 04:14:55 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on January 17, 2025, 04:07:59 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 04:00:04 PMI'm a little lost on what TikTok is even about? My wife hasn't given me a glowing assessment given what she sends me. Can anyone expound what is actually good about the platform?
It was kind of the spiritual successor to Vine, these short videos about basically any topics that you just roll through one to the next.
That's it? Can't you pretty much do the same thing on every other social media platform now?
I've been on TikTok about three years now.
Compared to Instagram/Reels or YouTube Shorts, I find the interface to be more intuitive, and their algorithm both more accurate and more flexible to what I'm interested in. My understanding is that creators (I'm just a viewer) find a much higher level of engagement on TikTok than they do on other platforms.
Plus, it's not owned by an aspiring oligarch...yet.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 04:14:55 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on January 17, 2025, 04:07:59 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 04:00:04 PMI'm a little lost on what TikTok is even about? My wife hasn't given me a glowing assessment given what she sends me. Can anyone expound what is actually good about the platform?
It was kind of the spiritual successor to Vine, these short videos about basically any topics that you just roll through one to the next.
That's it? Can't you pretty much do the same thing on every other social media platform now?
Yep. Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube all have a similar reel functionality built into their mobile apps. Maybe they introduced this after TikTok became popular, but still, I never saw the point. Maybe it's just a safe haven from relatives who use facebook and instagram.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 04:00:04 PMI'm a little lost on what TikTok is even about? My wife hasn't given me a glowing assessment given what she sends me. Can anyone expound what is actually good about the platform?
You should post a short video of you and your wife talking about this to TikTok.
This all started, if you recall, when a bunch of TikTok K-pop stans decided to spoil Trump's first rally since the pandemic in Tulsa on 6/20/2020 by buying up all the tickets.
I'm sure the logic of the ban is debatable at best, but regardless, the United States is a better place without TikTok in it.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 17, 2025, 02:07:50 PMThe fact that ByteDance wasn't willing to sell TikTok to an American corporation for boatloads of money tells me that there was indeed nefarious intent regarding ByteDance's use of the data it acquires from users' cellphones.
I feel like you'd be against a company being forced to be sold in most other circumstances. Let's face it, if you built/owned a company, you might not want to sell. Some people in business are in it because that's what they want to do and they take pride in their work, not just to make a quick buck and then cut and run.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 03:02:04 PMMy spit-ball opinion is that it's become a white elephant: politicians don't want to ban it, but nobody wants to come forward and say they don't care about the Chinese government having our personal data and influencing elections, so they keep having to deal with it.
If they really didn't want to ban it, they could just say that the law was a bad way of accomplishing its stated goals, but that would require taking on Silicon Valley, which they don't want to do (I'm in agreement with the theory that the law was always intended as a Silicon Valley bailout after the younger generations decided to tell the US-based social media companies to go screw themselves).
Quote from: DTComposer on January 17, 2025, 02:54:30 PMBut IMO, it's mostly because TikTok, more than any of the other social media platforms, has demonstrated the ability to get non-corporate-based news (some relatively independent, others with agendas across the political spectrum) into the public discourse, to build communities among marginalized groups, and to show the potential to be an organizing space for change.
TikTok is a threat, not to individual American's data, but to the rich and powerful.
Yep. But the rich and powerful are also hypocrites - they want to take advantage of TikTok when it's in their favor and ban it when it's not. It's why some politicians have flip-flopped on whether they support a ban or not over the past couple years.
Quote from: DTComposer on January 17, 2025, 04:52:32 PMCompared to Instagram/Reels or YouTube Shorts, I find the interface to be more intuitive, and their algorithm both more accurate and more flexible to what I'm interested in.
Yep, the algorithm being better is why my wife has said she prefers TikTok over competing apps.
Interestingly, said algorithm is under export control by China, so if ByteDance sold TikTok to some other company, the algorithm probably wouldn't go with it.
Quote from: hotdogPi on January 17, 2025, 12:39:42 PMI don't quite understand why people are switching to Rednote, another Chinese company. Won't it get banned, too?
It's to poke Congress in the eye. "Don't want us to use our favorite app because it's Chinese? Screw you, we'll use one that's so Chinese we have to learn Mandarin to figure out what the buttons do!"
Big deal. I never got the hype about TikTok anyway.
Was there any actual road stuff on it? Now you guys have me wondering if there is a niche that hasn't been exploited on TikTok.
People switching from TikTok to Rednote makes me think that kids these days are as computer illiterate as my parents are.
Do kids actually even widely use actual computers anymore? Seems like most young people use tablets and phones.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 18, 2025, 12:00:28 AMDo kids actually even widely use actual computers anymore? Seems like most young people use tablets and phones.
Given that PC gaming is still a thing, I would imagine some do.
In addition, most of these people are young adults and not kids, but laptops at Starbucks are a very common sight.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 18, 2025, 12:00:28 AMDo kids actually even widely use actual computers anymore?
Anyone who plays Grand Theft Auto Online on PC will confirm that yes, kids use actual computers still.
My daughter and I share videos that entertain us on TikTok. The ban is stupid, especially when based upon some idiotic idea that it's resulting in mass indoctrination or something.
Love the fact that, on RedNote, we are teaching skeptical Chinese citizens that paying for ambulances is indeed something we do here and not just propaganda...
Haven't made the switch and probably won't, but this whole thing reeks of American apps not being as competitive and screwing everyone over very little concern.
I mean, FB Messenger scans your wifi network, too...
Quote from: SectorZ on January 18, 2025, 05:28:04 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 04:54:51 PMLove the fact that, on RedNote, we are teaching skeptical Chinese citizens that paying for ambulances is indeed something we do here and not just propaganda...
Kind of is propaganda based on what I could find. Beside that, I pay zero out-of-pocket with my insurance, but their tax-funded government insurance apparently does not.
Trusting anything they say that makes them "better than us", when they put suicide nets so people jumping from factory roofs are a thing, is a little naïve.
<.<
You know how insurance works, right?
And, don't we have suicide catchers on the Golden Gate Bridge and other locations ourselves?
Trump "likely" to give a 90-day reprieve: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwypng0rw0lo
Quote from: Big John on January 18, 2025, 07:16:21 PMTrump "likely" to give a 90-day reprieve: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwypng0rw0lo
A strange application of Andrew Jackson's assertion, but so be it.
Stinkypants can easily just browbeat Congress into rescinding the ban they voted for. Problem solved. Win for Stinkypants.
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 08:17:43 PMQuote from: Big John on January 18, 2025, 07:16:21 PMTrump "likely" to give a 90-day reprieve: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwypng0rw0lo
A strange application of Andrew Jackson's assertion, but so be it.
Not a rejection of SCOTUS, just a rejection of a congressional statute that SCOTUS merely upheld. So that's different from Jackson.
Quote from: Road Hog on January 18, 2025, 08:30:51 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 08:17:43 PMQuote from: Big John on January 18, 2025, 07:16:21 PMTrump "likely" to give a 90-day reprieve: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwypng0rw0lo
A strange application of Andrew Jackson's assertion, but so be it.
Not a rejection of SCOTUS, just a rejection of a congressional statute that SCOTUS merely upheld. So that's different from Jackson.
I am impressed by how finely this hair is split.
Quote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 09:00:17 PMQuote from: Road Hog on January 18, 2025, 08:30:51 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 08:17:43 PMQuote from: Big John on January 18, 2025, 07:16:21 PMTrump "likely" to give a 90-day reprieve: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwypng0rw0lo
A strange application of Andrew Jackson's assertion, but so be it.
Not a rejection of SCOTUS, just a rejection of a congressional statute that SCOTUS merely upheld. So that's different from Jackson.
I am impressed by how finely this hair is split.
Oh, it's very straightforward thing by recent standards. Talk about "deplatforming" if you really want to enjoy some doublespeak
It is currently dark in the US.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 07:21:54 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 05:51:14 PMQuote from: SectorZ on January 18, 2025, 05:28:04 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 04:54:51 PMLove the fact that, on RedNote, we are teaching skeptical Chinese citizens that paying for ambulances is indeed something we do here and not just propaganda...
Kind of is propaganda based on what I could find. Beside that, I pay zero out-of-pocket with my insurance, but their tax-funded government insurance apparently does not.
Trusting anything they say that makes them "better than us", when they put suicide nets so people jumping from factory roofs are a thing, is a little naïve.
<.<
You know how insurance works, right?
And, don't we have suicide catchers on the Golden Gate Bridge and other locations ourselves?
Why do anytime someone presents you with facts, you just cut them down by pretending they don't know how something works?
Yes, I know how insurance works, and unarguably given my work experience I know much more than you about it. Instead, you just choose to be a useful idiot for a totalitarian government. Congrats.
Because it's way too obvious that we pay insurance premiums for policies that pay for the ambulance costs. And, if you don't have insurance, a bill does come your way for the service.
To say, "I don't have to pay for it since it's zero out-of-pocket through the insurance policy [THAT I PAY FOR]" is a bit much.
Quote from: Big John on January 18, 2025, 11:18:37 PMIt is currently dark in the US.
Sun's rising, how can it be dark? :awesomeface:
Quote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 08:19:49 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 19, 2025, 07:54:27 AMQuote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 07:21:54 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 05:51:14 PMQuote from: SectorZ on January 18, 2025, 05:28:04 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 04:54:51 PMLove the fact that, on RedNote, we are teaching skeptical Chinese citizens that paying for ambulances is indeed something we do here and not just propaganda...
Kind of is propaganda based on what I could find. Beside that, I pay zero out-of-pocket with my insurance, but their tax-funded government insurance apparently does not.
Trusting anything they say that makes them "better than us", when they put suicide nets so people jumping from factory roofs are a thing, is a little naïve.
<.<
You know how insurance works, right?
And, don't we have suicide catchers on the Golden Gate Bridge and other locations ourselves?
Why do anytime someone presents you with facts, you just cut them down by pretending they don't know how something works?
Yes, I know how insurance works, and unarguably given my work experience I know much more than you about it. Instead, you just choose to be a useful idiot for a totalitarian government. Congrats.
Because it's way too obvious that we pay insurance premiums for policies that pay for the ambulance costs. And, if you don't have insurance, a bill does come your way for the service.
To say, "I don't have to pay for it since it's zero out-of-pocket through the insurance policy [THAT I PAY FOR]" is a bit much.
I am pretty sure people in China and any other country with government-paid health care pay it in a ridiculous level of increased taxes. It's just shifted from who you're paying it to. You are aware their health insurance isn't "free" right?
And, I'll reiterate this AGAIN, people in China pay out of pocket costs for an ambulance ride. Instead, you be you and keep on whitesplaining to the Chinese on a Chinese app how their own country works.
There is a hard to quantity yet very useful parameter - government spending as a fraction of GDP. And it is more or less the same across the globe.
There is also healthcare spending as a fraction of GDP - which is sky high in US. There is also life expectancy, which is surprisingly low in US given medical spending.
Yes, ambulance may work differently depending on your insurance. But 4-digit bills for life saving emergency care is a real thing, we had to pay one for my wife. (Its a long story why she ended up with a cheap and shitty insurance - she didn't have to, but it was standard for her coworkers).
If you read Liu Cixin books, china used to have expensive healthcare as well.
Moral of the story? Different social priorities. Typical propaganda approach is "it is great here, it is bad there".
But people running away from ambulance to avoid treatment and payments are a medical fact. So is Biden and Putin being examples of leaders using "justice" on their opponents and censoring internet.
I think a lot of people who don't understand how poor, expensive and uneven health care is in the United States either
1. Have had good, comprehensive health insurance for a long time and don't understand how the marketplace IMO has significantly changed over the last decade, or...
2. Have bought into the notion that unless we put up with this, access and quality will suffer. Even though there are countries that have show this to absolutely not be the case.
It is obvious that something needs to be done. Our system is honestly unsustainable as our population continues to age. Latest projections show that we are going to need migration to even maintain our current population size and age over the next 30 years. Without the health and economic production that young people bring, things are going to get very stagnant around here.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 08:19:49 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 19, 2025, 07:54:27 AMQuote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 07:21:54 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 05:51:14 PMQuote from: SectorZ on January 18, 2025, 05:28:04 PMQuote from: Rothman on January 18, 2025, 04:54:51 PMLove the fact that, on RedNote, we are teaching skeptical Chinese citizens that paying for ambulances is indeed something we do here and not just propaganda...
Kind of is propaganda based on what I could find. Beside that, I pay zero out-of-pocket with my insurance, but their tax-funded government insurance apparently does not.
Trusting anything they say that makes them "better than us", when they put suicide nets so people jumping from factory roofs are a thing, is a little naïve.
<.<
You know how insurance works, right?
And, don't we have suicide catchers on the Golden Gate Bridge and other locations ourselves?
Why do anytime someone presents you with facts, you just cut them down by pretending they don't know how something works?
Yes, I know how insurance works, and unarguably given my work experience I know much more than you about it. Instead, you just choose to be a useful idiot for a totalitarian government. Congrats.
Because it's way too obvious that we pay insurance premiums for policies that pay for the ambulance costs. And, if you don't have insurance, a bill does come your way for the service.
To say, "I don't have to pay for it since it's zero out-of-pocket through the insurance policy [THAT I PAY FOR]" is a bit much.
I am pretty sure people in China and any other country with government-paid health care pay it in a ridiculous level of increased taxes. It's just shifted from who you're paying it to. You are aware their health insurance isn't "free" right?
And, I'll reiterate this AGAIN, people in China pay out of pocket costs for an ambulance ride. Instead, you be you and keep on whitesplaining to the Chinese on a Chinese app how their own country works.
Goalposts shifted...of course China pays for it one way or another.
The idea that because your out-of-pocket expenses were zero that the cost to you was zero for ambulances was equally silly to the assertion you're currently making.
Again, looking like Red China and us are closer together than you think.
So...TikTok's back...and Facebook now has a verified account.
*facepalm*
Quote from: Rothman on January 19, 2025, 07:54:27 AMBecause it's way too obvious that we pay insurance premiums for policies that pay for the ambulance costs. And, if you don't have insurance, a bill does come your way for the service.
To say, "I don't have to pay for it since it's zero out-of-pocket through the insurance policy [THAT I PAY FOR]" is a bit much.
Heck, even with insurance, often it will just be a reimbursement, so you still need to pay for it, you just get money back afterwards.
I find it interesting that some people feel strongly about paying a private company something instead of taxes, especially since the company costs more (because they need to make a profit) and often has worse outcomes.
One benefit to paying for an ambulance ride is that you can decline it in certain circumstances. Last year someone accidentally gave me shrimp sauce which gave me a nasty allergic reaction. I managed to down a Benadryl before the throat swelling got really bad. My wife's family called 911 and the paramedics keep pushing for to take an ambulance ride. Considering I threw up most of what was giving me problems I felt in position to decline a ride and having to pay the out of pocket fee later on.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 19, 2025, 03:49:13 PMOne benefit to paying for an ambulance ride is that you can decline it in certain circumstances. Last year someone accidentally gave me shrimp sauce which gave me a nasty allergic reaction. I managed to down a Benadryl before the throat swelling got really bad. My wife's family called 911 and the paramedics keep pushing for to take an ambulance ride. Considering I threw up most of what was giving me problems I felt in position to decline a ride and having to pay the out of pocket fee later on.
And yet, in a lot of countries fiscal considerations don't come into play when one is having various substances spewing forth from their orifices.
When I lived in Yeltsin's Russia, you just went to the doctor or hospital. Sure, the overall economy sucked, but people didn't have to worry about whether they could afford healthcare.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 08:19:49 AMI am pretty sure people in China and any other country with government-paid health care pay it in a ridiculous level of increased taxes. It's just shifted from who you're paying it to. You are aware their health insurance isn't "free" right?
You are aware the price paid in the US isn't the cost of the care, right? It doesn't
actually cost $1,200 to take someone somewhere in an ambulance. ZipRecruiter says that an EMT gets paid $20/hour on average, and I can't imagine that the MPG on an ambulance is so bad that they spend $1,140 in gas each run.
You don't have to have a ridiculous level of taxes if the amount you're paying only has to cover the actual cost of the care with no markup.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2025, 09:34:47 PMQuote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 08:19:49 AMI am pretty sure people in China and any other country with government-paid health care pay it in a ridiculous level of increased taxes. It's just shifted from who you're paying it to. You are aware their health insurance isn't "free" right?
You are aware the price paid in the US isn't the cost of the care, right? It doesn't actually cost $1,200 to take someone somewhere in an ambulance. ZipRecruiter says that an EMT gets paid $20/hour on average, and I can't imagine that the MPG on an ambulance is so bad that they spend $1,140 in gas each run.
You don't have to have a ridiculous level of taxes if the amount you're paying only has to cover the actual cost of the care with no markup.
You may miss a few line items driving costs up, though.
Insurance for emergency vehicle has to be much higher than for regular one, like ways higher. EMTs are getting paid regardless of being on a mission. Insurance on all sort of their actions. Certifications of everything and anything.
Certification in general is a huge thing. While people enjoy looking for that UL logo, that's actually yet another cancerous tumor on US economy.
I don't see EMT providers becoming oligarchs on their business. Moreover, I do see them pulling out of business because they cannot make the ends meet...
And of course any suggestion that regulations may be loosened is always met with pure indignation....
Quote from: kalvado on January 20, 2025, 05:39:36 AMYou may miss a few line items driving costs up, though.
Insurance for emergency vehicle has to be much higher than for regular one, like ways higher. EMTs are getting paid regardless of being on a mission. Insurance on all sort of their actions. Certifications of everything and anything.
Certification in general is a huge thing. While people enjoy looking for that UL logo, that's actually yet another cancerous tumor on US economy.
And all that stuff gets the fuck amortized out of it, because you don't have to have the ambulance re-certified every single trip. Yawn.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2025, 05:42:50 AMQuote from: kalvado on January 20, 2025, 05:39:36 AMYou may miss a few line items driving costs up, though.
Insurance for emergency vehicle has to be much higher than for regular one, like ways higher. EMTs are getting paid regardless of being on a mission. Insurance on all sort of their actions. Certifications of everything and anything.
Certification in general is a huge thing. While people enjoy looking for that UL logo, that's actually yet another cancerous tumor on US economy.
And all that stuff gets the fuck amortized out of it, because you don't have to have the ambulance re-certified every single trip. Yawn.
More like annual recertification and semiannual retraining for the crew.
Anecdotal experience - certification bill in a totally unrelated area starts with a first class round trip airline ticket....
Well, gee, the price of an ambulance ride makes sense if the crew only responds to one call per year. You sure got me there.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 20, 2025, 07:50:23 AMThe ambulance buy itself?
Well, gee, the price of an ambulance ride makes sense if the ambulance is disposed of after one call. You sure got me there.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 20, 2025, 07:59:24 AMThey cost almost a quarter million dollars. It takes lots of ambulance rides to make that up.
So say the ambulance is in service for five years and it gets a hilariously low one call per day.
365*5
= 1825
250000/1825
= 136.98630136986301369863
So the cost of the ambulance itself is $137 per day. Of course, a real ambulance will answer way more than one call per day.
I think it's more disappointing that you apparently buy the lies UnitedHealth is selling you.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 20, 2025, 07:50:23 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 19, 2025, 09:34:47 PMQuote from: SectorZ on January 19, 2025, 08:19:49 AMI am pretty sure people in China and any other country with government-paid health care pay it in a ridiculous level of increased taxes. It's just shifted from who you're paying it to. You are aware their health insurance isn't "free" right?
You are aware the price paid in the US isn't the cost of the care, right? It doesn't actually cost $1,200 to take someone somewhere in an ambulance. ZipRecruiter says that an EMT gets paid $20/hour on average, and I can't imagine that the MPG on an ambulance is so bad that they spend $1,140 in gas each run.
You don't have to have a ridiculous level of taxes if the amount you're paying only has to cover the actual cost of the care with no markup.
The ambulance buy itself? As well, almost all the ambulances around me are not private enterprise, but the government. Guess what also charges $1100 for that ambulance ride?
I think you are making his argument for him.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 20, 2025, 08:45:29 AMWhat is with you blaming a health insurer that doesn't even exist in my state?
Who do you think spent gobs of money to make people believe this is a fair price?
Quote from: SectorZ on January 20, 2025, 08:45:29 AMMy town charges $1100 for an ambulance ride (an odd coincidence). They do not profit off of it. What part of that is confusing to you and why are you going all Luigi on me for it. Almost EVERY town and city around me runs muni service. Will you blame the government for the high cost, since it's literally the damn government providing it?
What town is it? Do you have balance sheets proving that they are not profiting off of it? Do the words "fair market rate" appear anywhere in the governing language?
Quote from: SectorZ on January 20, 2025, 08:45:29 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2025, 08:14:06 AMQuote from: SectorZ on January 20, 2025, 07:59:24 AMThey cost almost a quarter million dollars. It takes lots of ambulance rides to make that up.
So say the ambulance is in service for five years and it gets a hilariously low one call per day.
365*5
= 1825
250000/1825
= 136.98630136986301369863
So the cost of the ambulance itself is $137 per day. Of course, a real ambulance will answer way more than one call per day.
I think it's more disappointing that you apparently buy the lies UnitedHealth is selling you.
What does health insurance do with the cost of the ambulance? What is with you blaming a health insurer that doesn't even exist in my state?
My town charges $1100 for an ambulance ride (an odd coincidence). They do not profit off of it. What part of that is confusing to you and why are you going all Luigi on me for it. Almost EVERY town and city around me runs muni service. Will you blame the government for the high cost, since it's literally the damn government providing it? Should they run it at a loss?
Obscure cost structure looks like to be the big part of it. Yes, ambulance is a bit more expensive than Uber ride. My impression is that Scott wants to apply Uber cost stricture, though.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 20, 2025, 08:52:03 AMWhat town is it?
Answer here https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=28374.125 (linking instead of saying outright because the board is invisible to non-members, in case SectorZ only wants it visible to this community instead of the entire public)
I must have missed something. Is TikTok running an ambulance service now?
Quote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 07:52:08 PMI must have missed something. Is TikTok running an ambulance service now?
The Chinese government divested their interest and sold it to American Ambulance out of Fresno. Now you can film short videos on the way to E.R.
They should just green-light ALANCAN instead.
Quote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 08:08:24 PMThey should just green-light ALANCAN instead.
The if the ALANCAN is good enough for Chester Cheetah, it is good enough for me.
Quote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 07:52:08 PMI must have missed something. Is TikTok running an ambulance service now?
I mean, TikTok does make me want to die, so...
Quote from: LilianaUwU on January 21, 2025, 06:25:25 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 07:52:08 PMI must have missed something. Is TikTok running an ambulance service now?
I mean, TikTok does make me want to die, so...
Dang. Somebody looked at the wrong stuff on it.
*goes back to watching a baby platypus waddle*
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2025, 06:57:04 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on January 21, 2025, 06:25:25 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 07:52:08 PMI must have missed something. Is TikTok running an ambulance service now?
I mean, TikTok does make me want to die, so...
Dang. Somebody looked at the wrong stuff on it.
*goes back to watching a baby platypus waddle*
The great algorithm allows everyone to see what they really need and enjoy....
Quote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 07:52:08 PMI must have missed something. Is TikTok running an ambulance service now?
No, the ambulance service is running to save this thread, but it may be too late.
Quote from: kalvado on January 21, 2025, 08:31:14 AMQuote from: Rothman on January 21, 2025, 06:57:04 AMQuote from: LilianaUwU on January 21, 2025, 06:25:25 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 07:52:08 PMI must have missed something. Is TikTok running an ambulance service now?
I mean, TikTok does make me want to die, so...
Dang. Somebody looked at the wrong stuff on it.
*goes back to watching a baby platypus waddle*
The great algorithm allows everyone to see what they really need and enjoy....
The great algorithm sounds like a cyber bully.
Quote from: Rothman on January 21, 2025, 02:21:25 PMThe great algorithm sounds like a cyber bully.
The Great Alan Gorithm