Just noticing photos of left turn signals all over the place. Do you have a preference for a red arrow as opposed to a red ball? I'm only asking about protected left signals, where you can only turn left on a green arrow.
I prefer a red arrow. a combination of red ball and green ball being shown at the same time is not as intuitive to parse when one is approaching the intersection.
Red arrow.
Definitely red arrow.
One single red arrow; no double red arrows.
Yeah double red arrows are pretty silly.
+1 for the red arrow.
I prefer the red arrow, though living in Ohio I've become very accustomed to the red ball.
Red arrow. Can't see in any way how a solid red light would be advantageous for a left turn signal.
Arrow. It looks ridiculous when some cities/states put a ball and then a LEFT TURN LIGHT sign right next to it. Just do the damn arrow...
Red arrow. The only advantage I see to a red ball is increased visibility.
Red arrows are mandatory now with the latest MUTCD. Red balls on protected left turns will be slowly disappearing from here on out.
Another vote for the red arrow.
The MUTCD phased them out in the latest version, in part because arrow indications have been in use for upwards of 30 years and pretty much everybody knows what they mean. Additionally, the 2009 MUTCD took steps to remove any circular indications from appearing over turn lanes--part of the FYA philosophy.
Florida mixes it up. Some places you see a red ball and some you see an arrow.
I remember when New Jersey and Pennsylvania used that funky glass over the left turn signal heads so that only a motorist in the left turn lane could see it. Now, you do not see them much.
There was even a time when PA always had the red ball lit no matter what the orientation was. I saw this back in 85 in Altoona and other places, and it would be lit even with the green arrow. So when it was clear to turn left, you had both a red ball and green arrow working at the same time.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2012, 05:11:45 PM
So when it was clear to turn left, you had both a red ball and green arrow working at the same time.
Sounds like a normal stoplight to me......
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1stnevadalicense.com%2Fimages%2Freading%2Fch3_greenleft.jpg&hash=e6bf325b761e5a314bdbb0332772e5a16aca806f)
Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2012, 05:34:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2012, 05:11:45 PM
So when it was clear to turn left, you had both a red ball and green arrow working at the same time.
Sounds like a normal stoplight to me......
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1stnevadalicense.com%2Fimages%2Freading%2Fch3_greenleft.jpg&hash=e6bf325b761e5a314bdbb0332772e5a16aca806f)
I think he's trying to get at this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5068%2F5870361605_2c291f7200_z.jpg&hash=6d962e0cd6b4f97c12709f34833042c8d8ad75b4)
Quote from: PennDOTFan on June 28, 2012, 06:04:34 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2012, 05:34:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2012, 05:11:45 PM
So when it was clear to turn left, you had both a red ball and green arrow working at the same time.
Sounds like a normal stoplight to me......
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1stnevadalicense.com%2Fimages%2Freading%2Fch3_greenleft.jpg&hash=e6bf325b761e5a314bdbb0332772e5a16aca806f)
I think he's trying to get at this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5068%2F5870361605_2c291f7200_z.jpg&hash=6d962e0cd6b4f97c12709f34833042c8d8ad75b4)
Is that type of signal still common? I remember that in some places out east. I don't think I've ever seen that out west.
Same, Ive never seen anything like the 2nd pic before. Not with the red ball and the green arrow at the same time.
Quote from: bulkyorled on June 28, 2012, 09:30:21 PM
Same, Ive never seen anything like the 2nd pic before. Not with the red ball and the green arrow at the same time.
This was common in PA but has been phased out as signals are replaced.
Red ball/green arrow is how it is done in CT. Sometimes the red ball isn't lit for the green and yellow arrow, but most of the time it is. Red arrows are pretty rare.
Quote from: PennDOTFan on June 28, 2012, 06:04:34 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 28, 2012, 05:34:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2012, 05:11:45 PM
So when it was clear to turn left, you had both a red ball and green arrow working at the same time.
I think he's trying to get at this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5068%2F5870361605_2c291f7200_z.jpg&hash=6d962e0cd6b4f97c12709f34833042c8d8ad75b4)
So, the red light over the left turn lane is always lit? That would make me come to a stop to be sure some other direction of traffic isn't coming at me. The only thing worse that I've seen was near Winnipeg where the through traffic had a solid red light simultaneously with a straight-ahead green arrow underneath - a backward way to indicate protected only left turn.
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on June 29, 2012, 06:51:21 PM
I think he's trying to get at this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5068%2F5870361605_2c291f7200_z.jpg&hash=6d962e0cd6b4f97c12709f34833042c8d8ad75b4)
So, the red light over the left turn lane is always lit? That would make me come to a stop to be sure some other direction of traffic isn't coming at me. The only thing worse that I've seen was near Winnipeg where the through traffic had a solid red light simultaneously with a straight-ahead green arrow underneath - a backward way to indicate protected only left turn.
Wouldn't you think that you have to stop EXCEPT if you're taking a left turn? That's how I would interpret it, but maybe that's just because I'm used to seeing that.
Quote from: connroadgeek on June 30, 2012, 10:08:37 AM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on June 29, 2012, 06:51:21 PM
I think he's trying to get at this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5068%2F5870361605_2c291f7200_z.jpg&hash=6d962e0cd6b4f97c12709f34833042c8d8ad75b4)
So, the red light over the left turn lane is always lit? That would make me come to a stop to be sure some other direction of traffic isn't coming at me. The only thing worse that I've seen was near Winnipeg where the through traffic had a solid red light simultaneously with a straight-ahead green arrow underneath - a backward way to indicate protected only left turn.
Wouldn't you think that you have to stop EXCEPT if you're taking a left turn? That's how I would interpret it, but maybe that's just because I'm used to seeing that.
The signal head marked "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" is giving what I interpret as conflicting direction. My first thought would be "malfunctioning signal". When turning left I know I can disregard the other two heads over the through traffic lanes, but I would expect the red over the left turn lane to be off. I've been driving through protected-only left turn signals my entire adult life, and I've observed the evolution from a louvered red ball at the left turn lane to the red arrow; but in all cases I"ve seen, when you are free to turn left the red goes off. This may be a New England oddity, but certainly not MUTCD-compliant.
There USED to be one of those on US 422 eastbound at PA 501. (There probably was/is westbound, but I never get to see since it's always been red when I've been westbound.) It has since been replaced by an LED one that doesn't do that anymore (it was an incandescent). I thought it was malfunctioning up until reading this thread, since I haven't seen it anywhere else (in person or picture aside from that) to this day.
If a signal is specifically for a turn, the arrow only makes sense. Connecticut, unfortunately, thinks otherwise. Finding a red arrow anywhere in the state is next to impossible (though a few do exist).
Another advantage of using a red arrow versus a circular red for left turn signals: with the arrow, you don't need to provide a "left turn signal" sign, or use louvers or programmed visibility heads to shield the red ball from through traffic.
Quote from: Roadsguy on June 30, 2012, 07:44:07 PM
There USED to be one of those on US 422 eastbound at PA 501. (There probably was/is westbound, but I never get to see since it's always been red when I've been westbound.) It has since been replaced by an LED one that doesn't do that anymore (it was an incandescent). I thought it was malfunctioning up until reading this thread, since I haven't seen it anywhere else (in person or picture aside from that) to this day.
There was a matching set (for both directions of travel) on East Ohio St (in Pittsburgh) of these at the intersection with Chestnut St. (that leads to the 16th St. Bridge) that did this....
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2012, 05:11:45 PMThere was even a time when PA always had the red ball lit no matter what the orientation was. I saw this back in 85 in Altoona and other places, and it would be lit even with the green arrow. So when it was clear to turn left, you had both a red ball and green arrow working at the same time.
Nearly 20 years ago, PA didn't allow
any type of red-arrow usage. The 1991 edition of the PA Driver's manual even mentioned that the red-arrow was not used in Pennsylvania.
Quote from: PennDOTFan on June 28, 2012, 06:04:34 PMI think he's trying to get at this:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5068%2F5870361605_2c291f7200_z.jpg&hash=6d962e0cd6b4f97c12709f34833042c8d8ad75b4)
Collingdale/Darby Borough PA along MacDade Bldv./Chester Pike/US 13 intersection with Main St. in the distance.
That setup was also very common in Massachusetts back in a day as well. Earlier, veritical 4-lens arrangements (red, yellow and 2 green arrows (one straight/one right or left) used to have scenarios where 2 lenses would be lit in most cycles/phases; red-one green arrow, yellow-one green arrow, both green arrows.
One traffic signal along MA 1A at the Lynnway/Commercial St. intersection in Lynn, even had 4-lens signal-heads that had
three of its 4 lenses lit at one time for two diffent phases: one featured yellow & both green arrows (striaght and right) lit, the other red & both green arrows lit. The red and yellow being lit was directed to motorists making a left turn from 1A North/Lynnway onto Commercial St. There was a supplemental 4-lens signal-head with a left turn arrow located in the median. When the other signal-heads had 3 of its lenses lit, this one only had 2 of its lenses lit; the yellow & straight green arrow and the red & straight green arrow... plus the 2 green arrows lit for the left turns onto Commercial St. phase.
This signal was replaced with a more conventional set-up in the late 80s when the Lynnway/Carroll Parkway was completely overhauled.
Always use an arrow, even if the light is diffracted for that lane.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 30, 2012, 09:09:50 PM
If a signal is specifically for a turn, the arrow only makes sense. Connecticut, unfortunately, thinks otherwise. Finding a red arrow anywhere in the state is next to impossible (though a few do exist).
As more lights are being replaced and those in new construction projects now have the red arrows. Noticed a few in Danbury, Orange and even in Old Lyme recently.
I remember as a kid (early 90's) that Tuscaloosa, AL used red arrows at some of their major intersections (US 82 at US 11, US 82 at 15th Street, etc.), but they switched to red balls.
Alabama uses red balls for the most part, but red arrows are creeping in some places, especially Dothan and Mobile. I saw one in Scottsboro, AL on Friday.
+1 for red arrows.
Virginia has started using red arrows officially in 2010 after using the red ball for many years. I agree it's more clear for its function and does not necessitate the use of additional signs to denote its function.
Originally, all protected left signals in Virginia had the red ball for their red phase without "Left turn signal" or other auxillary signs. By the '90s, it depended on where in Virginia you were as different VDOT districts apparantly liked to, and still like to, do different things. The Northern Virginia, Fredericksburg, Culpeper, and Bristol districts have used the auxillary "Left turn signal" signal sign next to most protected left signals, all having the red ball. The Lynchburg district posts, instead, "Left turn on green arrow only" auxillary signs. All other districts post no auxillary sign, though occasionally lane use control signs serve this function (esp. in the Richmond suburbs). As of 2010, new protected left signals in Northern Virginia as well as the Fredericksburg and Culpeper districts, have red arrows. There has also been a vast effort to replace many existing signals with red arrows as well (along with the taking down of auxillary "Left turn signal" signs). I have not seen this widespread in other parts of the state.
-Dan
Quote from: roadfro on June 30, 2012, 11:08:52 PM
Another advantage of using a red arrow versus a circular red for left turn signals: with the arrow, you don't need to provide a "left turn signal" sign, or use louvers or programmed visibility heads to shield the red ball from through traffic.
Actually, you do need the sign still. In some states, there is no difference between a red ball and a red arrow legally, so the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" must be used, or "NO TURN ON RED" for a right turn. Illinois is one of these states.
Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2012, 09:20:18 PM
Actually, you do need the sign still. In some states, there is no difference between a red ball and a red arrow legally, so the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" must be used, or "NO TURN ON RED" for a right turn. Illinois is one of these states.
really? in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?
how the Hell does everyone keep track of this!? I just learned that until 2011, all my U-turns in Wisconsin were illegal. Who'da thunk.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 23, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
really? in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?
Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.
Quote from: NE2 on August 23, 2012, 10:10:29 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 23, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
really? in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?
Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.
Not to me. I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green. If I encounter a red ball and I don't see a 'No Turn on Red' sign, I assume I can turn on red. All that applies to right turns. I can't keep track of what states alow LTOR. Those situations are generally reserved for downtown areas when one is likely to encounter two one way streets intersecting. Me personally, I avoid downtown areas if I can afford to do so, so I rarely encounter an intersection where I might be allowed to turn left on red.
Quote from: signalman on August 24, 2012, 12:55:57 AM
Not to me. I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green.
But, by the same argument, a red ball would mean you're not allowed to go and must wait for green, even if turning. Turning on red is an exception to the standard rule, and it's illogical to apply it to one way of saying "you must stop" and not the other.
Quote from: NE2 on August 23, 2012, 10:10:29 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 23, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
really? in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?
Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.
it is ambiguous. the general red ball says "do not go in this direction. do go right after a stop." so if you set "this direction" to "right" instead of the "forward and left" that the general red ball usually implies, you get a logical contradiction.
I suppose it's a result of me doing most of my driving in California, but I've always thought "arrow means do not go under any circumstances" and "ball means there is a possibility of going right (or left on one-way to one-way transfers) after a stop".
in CA, we also have the flashing red arrow, which means "go right after stop". I suppose a one-way to one-way might have a flashing red left arrow, but I've never seen one in the field.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 24, 2012, 12:02:19 PM
it is ambiguous. the general red ball says "do not go in this direction. do go right after a stop."
In what direction? A ball applies to all directions - left, right, and straight.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 24, 2012, 12:02:19 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 23, 2012, 10:10:29 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 23, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
really? in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?
Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.
it is ambiguous. the general red ball says "do not go in this direction. do go right after a stop." so if you set "this direction" to "right" instead of the "forward and left" that the general red ball usually implies, you get a logical contradiction.
I suppose it's a result of me doing most of my driving in California, but I've always thought "arrow means do not go under any circumstances" and "ball means there is a possibility of going right (or left on one-way to one-way transfers) after a stop".
in CA, we also have the flashing red arrow, which means "go right after stop". I suppose a one-way to one-way might have a flashing red left arrow, but I've never seen one in the field.
Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow. Of course, I've only ever seen one red right-turn arrow in Illinois, but whatever. I haven't actually looked up the law in Kansas yet, but I've never encountered a red right-turn arrow in this state anyway.
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2012, 01:37:01 PM
Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow.
By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop? If not, then red arrows have different meanings depending on which way they point. Very confusing IMO.
Here's my thinking and a lot of it comes from the fact that I'm a native Californian...
If there is a red arrow (doesn't matter which direction it's pointing - up, left or right) then I'm not allowed to go in that direction until I see a green arrow. Period.
If the signal is a red ball, then going straight or left is not allowed until I get a green ball or arrow or both. Turning right after stopping is OK unless there are signs prohibiting a RTOR (with the understanding that one-way streets are a different animal).
As for the flashing red arrow (something I haven't seen in the S.F. Bay Area for quite a while) Agentsteel53 brought up, I would treat any flashing red signal (ball or arrow) as a stop sign.
Apparently in Oregon, it's OK to turn right on a red arrow because I got honked at while waiting for a green right arrow. I knew something was wrong when drivers in the lane next to me were making turns on the red signal. :banghead: Couple that with the fact that U-turns are not allowed unless signed :banghead: :banghead: and you're not allowed to pump your own gas :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: makes driving in Oregon an "adventure". :rolleyes:
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 24, 2012, 01:58:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2012, 01:37:01 PM
Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow.
By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop?
Yes, if it would be legal to turn left on a red ball.
in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?
California usage is more intuitive to me because the arrow overrides the red-ball meaning with a new meaning, while in Illinois usage it seems to be redundant to it.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 24, 2012, 04:27:17 PM
in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?
Exclusive pedestrian phase with straight green (but then there'd be a no turn on red). I don't know if there are others, but it's extremely common around here to use arrows where there are turn-only lanes, especially at the end of offramps where you probably shouldn't go straight.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 24, 2012, 04:27:17 PM
in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?
California usage is more intuitive to me because the arrow overrides the red-ball meaning with a new meaning, while in Illinois usage it seems to be redundant to it.
It's basically only seen when there is a dedicated turn signal head (i.e. not a five lamp tower). Previous to the FHWA mandating red arrows, both red arrows and red balls could be seen on these signal heads as the meaning is redundant.
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 24, 2012, 01:58:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2012, 01:37:01 PM
Having first looked up traffic laws while living in Illinois, I find it natural to turn right on red after stopping even on a red arrow.
By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop? If not, then red arrows have different meanings depending on which way they point. Very confusing IMO.
If the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" is not posted, then yes, you can turn left on a red arrow in Illinois. Its meaning is no different than a five lamp tower with a green light at that point.
Now, that said, there are a few places where that can occur in the state, and even have multiple left turn lanes that can turn left on red. For example, at Center and Jefferson here in Joliet, one can turn left on red from both left turn lanes (one-way to one-way).
Quote from: Brandon on August 24, 2012, 06:53:17 PM
If the sign "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" is not posted, then yes, you can turn left on a red arrow in Illinois. Its meaning is no different than a five lamp tower with a green light at that point.
Now, that said, there are a few places where that can occur in the state, and even have multiple left turn lanes that can turn left on red. For example, at Center and Jefferson here in Joliet, one can turn left on red from both left turn lanes (one-way to one-way).
California used to have "LEFT (OR U) TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" signs on mast arms and signals mounted on medians or islands but they have gradually disappeared because of the use of the red left arrows.
As for intersections of two one-way streets, left turns after stopping are permitted in California if the signal is a red ball. If there's a red arrow, then you must wait for a green arrow before turning.
I prefer a red arrow, JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
In Dallas we often have flashing yellow left arrows to indicate a yield on left turns instead
Quote from: jczart on August 24, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
I prefer a red arrow, JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
In Dallas we often have flashing yellow left arrows to indicate a yield on left turns instead
We use a green ball for that in IDOT Districts 1 and 3 on a five lamp tower (or a few remaining four lamp towers with color changing arrow in D3). IDOT District 4 (Peoria) uses the flashing yellow arrow.
How's that for consistency within one state.
Quote from: Brandon on August 24, 2012, 06:49:42 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 24, 2012, 04:27:17 PM
in Illinois usage, what contexts require use of a red right arrow instead of a red ball?
California usage is more intuitive to me because the arrow overrides the red-ball meaning with a new meaning, while in Illinois usage it seems to be redundant to it.
It's basically only seen when there is a dedicated turn signal head (i.e. not a five lamp tower). Previous to the FHWA mandating red arrows, both red arrows and red balls could be seen on these signal heads as the meaning is redundant.
Indeed, the only place I remember seeing it in Illinois (keep in mind that my driving in northern Illinois ended in 2006, and southern Illinois in 2008) was where an exit ramp diverged into left- and right-turning movements. All I remember (it was a long time ago now) is that it was a tollway exit in a fairly rural area, but I'm unable to find its location now on Google Maps. I remember thinking that a solid ball would have worked fine, since there was no other movement available.
Quote from: NE2 on August 24, 2012, 01:48:03 AM
Quote from: signalman on August 24, 2012, 12:55:57 AM
Not to me. I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green.
But, by the same argument, a red ball would mean you're not allowed to go and must wait for green, even if turning. Turning on red is an exception to the standard rule, and it's illogical to apply it to one way of saying "you must stop" and not the other.
True, that allowing a turn on red is an exception. However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement. I don't see how that is an illogical conclusion of what the signal is trying to convey.
Quote from: signalman on August 27, 2012, 01:37:58 AM
However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.
No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.
Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2012, 02:55:21 AM
Quote from: signalman on August 27, 2012, 01:37:58 AM
However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.
No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.
Not according to the MUTCD.
Quote from: Steve on August 27, 2012, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2012, 02:55:21 AM
Quote from: signalman on August 27, 2012, 01:37:58 AM
However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.
No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.
Not according to the MUTCD.
The MUTCD is illogical.
Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2012, 08:20:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on August 27, 2012, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2012, 02:55:21 AM
Quote from: signalman on August 27, 2012, 01:37:58 AM
However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.
No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.
Not according to the MUTCD.
The MUTCD is illogical.
in this case, I believe the MUTCD is being logical. why have "red arrow" and "red ball" assigned to the same meaning, when they can be assigned to different meanings to provide greater flexibility in traffic control?
Quote from: Steve on August 27, 2012, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2012, 02:55:21 AM
Quote from: signalman on August 27, 2012, 01:37:58 AM
However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.
No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.
Not according to the MUTCD.
The MUTCD can say what it wants. It's all dependent upon state laws and vehicle codes.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 27, 2012, 08:28:22 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2012, 08:20:42 PM
Quote from: Steve on August 27, 2012, 08:18:35 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 27, 2012, 02:55:21 AM
Quote from: signalman on August 27, 2012, 01:37:58 AM
However, a red arrow tells me that I'm not permitted to make that movement.
No. A red arrow tells you that you have a red light for that movement. Therefore the normal red light rules should apply.
Not according to the MUTCD.
The MUTCD is illogical.
in this case, I believe the MUTCD is being logical. why have "red arrow" and "red ball" assigned to the same meaning, when they can be assigned to different meanings to provide greater flexibility in traffic control?
The MUTCD is being logical. If a red ball and a red arrow are going to have the same meaning, then why have the red arrow? The flexibility aspect is the only advantage that I can see (red ball= turn permitted after full stop, red arrow=turn not permitted). Seems completely reasonable and logical to me.
I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 28, 2012, 04:59:30 PM
I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."
that's what a flashing red arrow is for. "stop, then go when it is safe to proceed" - analogous to flashing red ball.
but flashing red arrow seems to be a California-only phenomenon. do any other states use it?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 28, 2012, 05:03:37 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 28, 2012, 04:59:30 PM
I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."
that's what a flashing red arrow is for. "stop, then go when it is safe to proceed" - analogous to flashing red ball.
but flashing red arrow seems to be a California-only phenomenon. do any other states use it?
Delaware (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r45aJQ0zDg&feature=plcp) uses it.
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 28, 2012, 04:59:30 PM
I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."
I'll have to check that proverbial box as well as to how I'd interpret it. Can't say there are too many Right-Red-Arrow signals here in PA (or at least, Western PA) though. Pretty much all "balls", and "No Turn On Red" signs where they don't want you turning red.
Quote from: Mr_Northside on August 28, 2012, 06:25:11 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 28, 2012, 04:59:30 PM
I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."
I'll have to check that proverbial box as well as to how I'd interpret it. Can't say there are too many Right-Red-Arrow signals here in PA (or at least, Western PA) though. Pretty much all "balls", and "No Turn On Red" signs where they don't want you turning red.
There are a few right red arrows in Philly. They usually post a supplemental "No Turn on Red" sign, although one intersection with dual right turn lanes (and red arrows) has a "No Turn On Red Except from Right Lane" sign.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 28, 2012, 05:03:37 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 28, 2012, 04:59:30 PM
I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."
that's what a flashing red arrow is for. "stop, then go when it is safe to proceed" - analogous to flashing red ball.
but flashing red arrow seems to be a California-only phenomenon. do any other states use it?
Maryland does. I know of one on MD 122 (Security Blvd) just east of I-695.
I see Texas, or at least in the Houston area has both red ball and red arrow, but they use two red lights on their left turn signals with either of these two.
Quote from: swbrotha100 on June 25, 2012, 03:24:41 PM
Just noticing photos of left turn signals all over the place. Do you have a preference for a red arrow as opposed to a red ball? I'm only asking about protected left signals, where you can only turn left on a green arrow.
Gimme red arrows any day.
So they just installed a red right-turn arrow on southbound Woodlawn at the Kellogg frontage road here in Wichita. I just saw it last night, while we were on our way home from the grocery store.
Me - A red right-turn arrow.
Wife - That's new; they must have just put that in.
Me - They're the subject of a discussion online.
Wife - Huh? Why?
Me - What does it naturally mean? You can turn after stopping, or you can't turn at all?
Wife - You can't turn at all.
Me - Actually, it means you can turn after stopping.
Wife - What? That's stupid.
Hmmmm..... She's just that one point away from being perfect for me. :-(
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Florida yet, but it is legal in Florida to make a RTOR on a red arrow. I looked it up and noticed that RTOR on a red arrow is illegal in a majority of states.
I agree that keeping track of each state's individual laws is frustrating and impractical. Before today, I actually haven't heard of using a flashing red arrow to permit right-turns after stopping, whereas the solid arrow would be used to prohibit the turn altogether. I think this is a great way to unambiguously tell drivers what is and is not allowed at the intersection at any given point in time.
Of course, if there are signals over dedicated right-turn lanes, a FYA should be used when the through movement has a green ball if there may be pedestrians in a crosswalk. I know the MUTCD mandates arrow-only signals over dedicated left-turn lanes, but I'm not too sure about its stance on right turn lanes.
EDIT: I will add that I believe all signal faces for signals over dedicated turn lanes, left or right, be arrow only. This would have prevented my yelling at my mom driving to stop for a red light. When on a crowded city street in New Orleans with an intersection every 0.01 miles, the left turn signal was displaying a red ball. I couldn't tell it was a left turn signal, and since I couldn't see any of the other signals for the intersection (I was in the back seat) I thought the entire intersection was red and that she was about to blow through the light. Having the arrow there would have prevented that.
Quote from: Ace10 on October 06, 2012, 11:37:41 PM
I actually haven't heard of using a flashing red arrow to permit right-turns after stopping, whereas the solid arrow would be used to prohibit the turn altogether. I think this is a great way to unambiguously tell drivers what is and is not allowed at the intersection at any given point in time.
This would only help if every single right-turn arrow in the nation switched to using a flashing red for permitted turns. Otherwise, if some used a steady arrow and some used a flashing arrow, then it would be slightly more difficult than now to tell what you're allowed to do at a solid red arrow, since most state laws permit turning. Then, in those jurisdictions, the flashing arrow and the steady arrow would mean the same thing, whereas in the other jurisdictions they would have separate meanings.
And, I'm sorry for derailing this thread into right turns. I had originally thought I was posting in a right-turn thread, and only realize now that it's the wrong thread.
Quote from: signalman on August 24, 2012, 12:55:57 AM
Quote from: NE2 on August 23, 2012, 10:10:29 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 23, 2012, 09:34:58 PM
really? in some states, I can turn right - after a stop - on a solid red right arrow?
Yep. Makes more sense that way, treating a red arrow as equivalent to a red ball for only that direction.
Not to me. I interperet a red arrow as I'm not allowed to turn and I must wait for green. If I encounter a red ball and I don't see a 'No Turn on Red' sign, I assume I can turn on red. All that applies to right turns. I can't keep track of what states alow LTOR. Those situations are generally reserved for downtown areas when one is likely to encounter two one way streets intersecting. Me personally, I avoid downtown areas if I can afford to do so, so I rarely encounter an intersection where I might be allowed to turn left on red.
South Carolina allows for left turns on red - ONLY on divided highways. The City of Aiken had many of these kinds of signs on RICHLAND AVE until 2010. But it still applies. If you are on a divided highway and you can make a left turn on red, then stop and make the left when it is safe to do so.
I vote red arrow.
I also prefer the red arrow, however I've been used to seeing (flashing) red balls since I live in Michigan and the red arrow is mostly on newer installations there.
Quote from: MASTERNC on August 30, 2012, 08:58:29 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on August 28, 2012, 06:25:11 PM
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 28, 2012, 04:59:30 PM
I gotta say, NE2's interpretation sounds like the most intuitive to me. Had I encountered a red right-turn arrow without reading this thread (I live in a state where red arrows are only being adopted in the past year or so) I would interpret it to mean "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction", not "this is a red light, but it applies only to this direction, and oh, also there's a turn restriction."
I'll have to check that proverbial box as well as to how I'd interpret it. Can't say there are too many Right-Red-Arrow signals here in PA (or at least, Western PA) though. Pretty much all "balls", and "No Turn On Red" signs where they don't want you turning red.
There are a few right red arrows in Philly. They usually post a supplemental "No Turn on Red" sign, although one intersection with dual right turn lanes (and red arrows) has a "No Turn On Red Except from Right Lane" sign.
Most if not all of the red-arrows I've seen in PA (including Greater Philly) are Left-turn arrows; so the only
Left on Red rule would apply if the intersecting roads and the road one's on are both one-way as with a standard red-ball signal.
There seems to be a question in Florida about right turn arrows. A friend of mine who repairs signals in Orange County, FL says it means the same as no turn on red. Then a know it all man who hangs out reliougusly in a breastaurant (new name for Hooters types of restaurants) told me the Orlando Sentinal had an article stating that it is not for stating no turns on red and applies like a red ball would. A sign is needed.
Furthermore, some intersections near railroads will have a light up no right turn when a train comes to prevent back ups on the parallel street. However, some people ignore it and will wait for the train and hold up through traffic. I think there is a question about this one. Orange Avenue at Landstreet Road in Taft has this set up as the CSX mainline runs alongside of Orange Avenue. Vehicles are not to go SB to WB when a train comes across Landstreet,
Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:53:38 PM
There seems to be a question in Florida about right turn arrows.
Nope. http://www.dot.state.fl.us/TrafficOperations/FAQs/TrafSignalFAQ.shtm
You beat me, NE2!
Florida Department of Transportation: Frequently Asked Questions - Traffic Signals (http://www.dot.state.fl.us/TrafficOperations/FAQs/TrafSignalFAQ.shtm)
QuoteA red RIGHT arrow means that you must come to a complete stop at the marked stop line or before moving into the crosswalk or intersection. After stopping, you may turn RIGHT on the red arrow at most intersections if the way is clear. Some intersections display a "NO TURN ON RED" sign, which you must obey.
A red LEFT turn arrow means that you must come to a complete stop at the marked stop line or before moving into the crosswalk or intersection, and shall remain stopped until a signal indication to proceed is shown. After stopping, the motorist facing a red LEFT turn arrow or red circular signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street with traffic moving to the left except when a "NO TURN ON RED" sign is displayed.
From this, it seems that in Florida there is no difference between a red arrow and a red ball. If it is usually legal to turn on a red ball, then it is just as legal to make that movement on a red arrow. However, I remember reading that in most states, this is
not the case.
A rebuilt intersection on Orange CR 535 and Ficquette Rd/Summerport Village Pkwy features two dedicated right turn lanes and two dedicated right turn signals. There is a sign that states something along the lines of "Right turn on red arrow after stop". Since this is most likely a county installation, the state (or even the rest of the county) may not post the sign at all intersections with red arrows.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=28.478521,-81.58296&spn=0.000005,0.002889&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=28.478528,-81.582828&panoid=NEpOh7Y6JM2xAjOJVQtbMg&cbp=12,278.99,,0,-3.34 (https://maps.google.com/?ll=28.478521,-81.58296&spn=0.000005,0.002889&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=28.478528,-81.582828&panoid=NEpOh7Y6JM2xAjOJVQtbMg&cbp=12,278.99,,0,-3.34)
Quote from: roadman65 on October 09, 2012, 03:53:38 PM
There seems to be a question in Florida about right turn arrows. A friend of mine who repairs signals in Orange County, FL says it means the same as no turn on red. Then a know it all man who hangs out reliougusly in a breastaurant (new name for Hooters types of restaurants) told me the Orlando Sentinal had an article stating that it is not for stating no turns on red and applies like a red ball would. A sign is needed.
Furthermore, some intersections near railroads will have a light up no right turn when a train comes to prevent back ups on the parallel street. However, some people ignore it and will wait for the train and hold up through traffic. I think there is a question about this one. Orange Avenue at Landstreet Road in Taft has this set up as the CSX mainline runs alongside of Orange Avenue. Vehicles are not to go SB to WB when a train comes across Landstreet,
To confirm what was just posted:
I see no distinction in the Florida Statute between a red ball and a red arrow. Here (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0300-0399/0316/Sections/0316.075.html) is the statute regarding stoplights, and here (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0300-0399/0316/0316ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2012&Title=%2D%3E2012%2D%3EChapter%20316) is the whole chapter.
I drove into Virginia this past weekend. It seems Fairfax County has started to replace red balls with red arrows but I'd say only 1 of every 3 lights that had that type of left turn signal had the arrow instead of the ball.
I found an oddball a couple of days ago in Chillicothe, MO: two left-turn stoplights mounted on a single pole, both featuring a solid red ball. I've never seen two left-turn lights right next to each other like that.
The GMSV is a little fuzzy, but you can make it out. (http://maps.google.com/?ll=39.806583,-93.550665&spn=0.000016,0.009602&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.806873,-93.552706&panoid=Uoqm29Db59xJnXpVJdQhyQ&cbp=12,163.03,,1,-0.01)
Quote from: kphoger on November 06, 2012, 07:04:30 PM
I found an oddball a couple of days ago in Chillicothe, MO: two left-turn stoplights mounted on a single pole, both featuring a solid red ball. I've never seen two left-turn lights right next to each other like that.
The GMSV is a little fuzzy, but you can make it out. (http://maps.google.com/?ll=39.806583,-93.550665&spn=0.000016,0.009602&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.806873,-93.552706&panoid=Uoqm29Db59xJnXpVJdQhyQ&cbp=12,163.03,,1,-0.01)
Here's (http://goo.gl/maps/CKcR1) a similar set up along US 15 (Leesburg Bypass) in Leesburg, VA.
Quote from: kphoger on October 06, 2012, 10:07:16 AM
So they just installed a red right-turn arrow on southbound Woodlawn at the Kellogg frontage road here in Wichita. I just saw it last night, while we were on our way home from the grocery store.
Me - A red right-turn arrow.
Wife - That's new; they must have just put that in.
Me - They're the subject of a discussion online.
Wife - Huh? Why?
Me - What does it naturally mean? You can turn after stopping, or you can't turn at all?
Wife - You can't turn at all.
Me - Actually, it means you can turn after stopping.
Wife - What? That's stupid.
Hmmmm..... She's just that one point away from being perfect for me. :-(
In continuation of my off-topic post (sorry), I noticed yesterday that construction at the intersection is now complete, and the offending red right-turn arrow has been replaced with a solid red ball. Maybe so many people refused to turn right on red (thinking it was prohibited) that the city decided the added turn lane wasn't helping traffic after all.
Late in replying, but I've been on deployment.
QuoteVirginia has started using red arrows officially in 2010 after using the red ball for many years. I agree it's more clear for its function and does not necessitate the use of additional signs to denote its function.
Originally, all protected left signals in Virginia had the red ball for their red phase without "Left turn signal" or other auxillary signs. By the '90s, it depended on where in Virginia you were as different VDOT districts apparantly liked to, and still like to, do different things. The Northern Virginia, Fredericksburg, Culpeper, and Bristol districts have used the auxillary "Left turn signal" signal sign next to most protected left signals, all having the red ball. The Lynchburg district posts, instead, "Left turn on green arrow only" auxillary signs. All other districts post no auxillary sign, though occasionally lane use control signs serve this function (esp. in the Richmond suburbs). As of 2010, new protected left signals in Northern Virginia as well as the Fredericksburg and Culpeper districts, have red arrows. There has also been a vast effort to replace many existing signals with red arrows as well (along with the taking down of auxillary "Left turn signal" signs). I have not seen this widespread in other parts of the state.
Originally, VDOT signal policy was one signalhead per lane. The perception was that this made auxiliary signage for signals unnecessary, hence those VDOT districts who did not put up signage on the signal mast. This no longer being the case, it's become necessary to revise signal design to be more in line with the MUTCD.
Red left arrows have slowly been filtering their way around the state, although several independent cities (namely Alexandria and the Hampton Roads cities) have been using them for over a decade. Saw my first VDOT-installed one in Spotsylvania County in 2010. These days, besides the districts you mentioned, I've also seen them in the Staunton and Hampton Roads districts (including VDOT-maintained areas).
Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Late in replying, but I've been on deployment.
Originally, VDOT signal policy was one signalhead per lane. The perception was that this made auxiliary signage for signals unnecessary, hence those VDOT districts who did not put up signage on the signal mast. This no longer being the case, it's become necessary to revise signal design to be more in line with the MUTCD.
Red left arrows have slowly been filtering their way around the state, although several independent cities (namely Alexandria and the Hampton Roads cities) have been using them for over a decade. Saw my first VDOT-installed one in Spotsylvania County in 2010. These days, besides the districts you mentioned, I've also seen them in the Staunton and Hampton Roads districts (including VDOT-maintained areas).
That makes sense. Interestingly, the Northern Virginia district has not followed the VDOT policy of one signalhead per lane for the last ~20+ years (how long ago did this stop being VDOT policy?), usually putting signals between lanes, use of "Left Turn Signal" auxillary signs, and using doghouse signals for protected right turns, unlike the rest of the state.
I've also noticed another interesting VDOT practice recently. Protected left signals are often being placed on the near side of the intersection on the mast arm with the signals for the opposite direction, separate from the signals for the through lanes. I've noticed this extensively in Northern Virginia (for example, US-29 at SR-650/Gallows Rd; numerous streets crossing the Beltway such as VA-7, SR-650, SR-620 erected with the HOT lanes project) and also at the JCT of VA-253/Port Republic Rd and SR-726/Stone Spring Rd just outside of Harrisonburg in Rockingham County (Staunton District).
Here's an example of what I'm talking about... these are VDOT pictures from the VA-253/SR-726 JCT:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vadot/6165904175/in/set-72157627589112139/
(also noteworthy for the only time I've ever seen 'Left Turn Signal' signs used in the Staunton District)
Is this a new MUTCD or VDOT policy? I find it an odd way to place left turn signals, especially since there are no signals on the other side while you're turning. Sounds like a safety hazard... I wouldn't mind a redundant signal to confirm I'm in the clear.
-Dan
Quote from: dfnva on December 27, 2012, 09:28:23 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2012, 05:34:41 PM
Late in replying, but I've been on deployment.
Originally, VDOT signal policy was one signalhead per lane. The perception was that this made auxiliary signage for signals unnecessary, hence those VDOT districts who did not put up signage on the signal mast. This no longer being the case, it's become necessary to revise signal design to be more in line with the MUTCD.
Red left arrows have slowly been filtering their way around the state, although several independent cities (namely Alexandria and the Hampton Roads cities) have been using them for over a decade. Saw my first VDOT-installed one in Spotsylvania County in 2010. These days, besides the districts you mentioned, I've also seen them in the Staunton and Hampton Roads districts (including VDOT-maintained areas).
I've also noticed another interesting VDOT practice recently. Protected left signals are often being placed on the near side of the intersection on the mast arm with the signals for the opposite direction, separate from the signals for the through lanes. I've noticed this extensively in Northern Virginia (for example, US-29 at SR-650/Gallows Rd; numerous streets crossing the Beltway such as VA-7, SR-650, SR-620 erected with the HOT lanes project) and also at the JCT of VA-253/Port Republic Rd and SR-726/Stone Spring Rd just outside of Harrisonburg in Rockingham County (Staunton District).
. . .
Is this a new MUTCD or VDOT policy? I find it an odd way to place left turn signals, especially since there are no signals on the other side while you're turning. Sounds like a safety hazard... I wouldn't mind a redundant signal to confirm I'm in the clear.
The MUTCD recommends signal heads be placed within a defined cone of vision (both horizontally and vertically) from the stop line. These rear-mounted signal heads wouldn't necessarily qualify as being within that cone of vision for the primary signal head(s), depending on the positioning of the heads in relation to the stop line. So it's not a MUTCD thing, but I couldn't speak to VDOT policy.
Nevada (particularly in Las Vegas area) sometimes uses a near side overhead left signal similar to this--but only at wide intersections as an additional supplemental signal head where there are already the normal main signals on the mast arm and a far side pole mount. You can see this at several intersections on the Las Vegas Strip, but is also used elsewhere.
QuoteNevada (particularly in Las Vegas area) sometimes uses a near side overhead left signal similar to this--but only at wide intersections as an additional supplemental signal head where there are already the normal main signals on the mast arm and a far side pole mount. You can see this at several intersections on the Las Vegas Strip, but is also used elsewhere.
That makes sense. In the past, I've only seen near-side signals (Whether mounted on a pedistal or overhead) as redundant signals. Maryland does that fairly extensively, and while it's not standard practice in Virginia, I've seen it some, esp. at major intersections in the Richmond suburbs.
Here in Michigan we have a special setup for our turning lights with green and yellow arrows, a red ball, and a separate light box (rectangle more so) mounted right on top of the signal that simply reads "LEFT" or "RIGHT" depending on the direction. It's only on completely restricted and "flashing red" permissive turning lights. It's not on doghouses (which aren't too common here anyway) or flashing yellow arrow turns which just have the out of state standard red arrow. I quite like the light box because it makes the lights and lanes easily distinguishable, especially at night, and no one from out of state seems to have any problems with it. However, I've never seen this setup anywhere outside Michigan, and I've driven through a good portion of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic, and South. It's all red arrows or red balls with a "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign next to it with nothing on top of the light. I wonder if there is anywhere outside of Michigan that uses this and if not, why is Michigan so unique to do this?
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 24, 2012, 01:58:57 PM
By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop? If not, then red arrows have different meanings depending on which way they point. Very confusing IMO.
Here's my thinking and a lot of it comes from the fact that I'm a native Californian...
If there is a red arrow (doesn't matter which direction it's pointing - up, left or right) then I'm not allowed to go in that direction until I see a green arrow. Period.
If the signal is a red ball, then going straight or left is not allowed until I get a green ball or arrow or both. Turning right after stopping is OK unless there are signs prohibiting a RTOR (with the understanding that one-way streets are a different animal).
As for the flashing red arrow (something I haven't seen in the S.F. Bay Area for quite a while) Agentsteel53 brought up, I would treat any flashing red signal (ball or arrow) as a stop sign.
Apparently in Oregon, it's OK to turn right on a red arrow because I got honked at while waiting for a green right arrow. I knew something was wrong when drivers in the lane next to me were making turns on the red signal. :banghead: Couple that with the fact that U-turns are not allowed unless signed :banghead: :banghead: and you're not allowed to pump your own gas :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: makes driving in Oregon an "adventure". :rolleyes:
Legally in Washington, you're allowed to turn against a red if you don't have to cut through an oncoming lane (even from the 2nd or 3rd lane from the right if it's a right-turn lane unless there's a sign saying you can't turn red (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.661159,-122.559111&spn=0.006404,0.016512&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.661159,-122.559111&panoid=9_n0ckJZ09FRKyID5YcGhQ&cbp=12,70.32,,0,4.44); some intersections actually only allow you to turn against the red on one lane (https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.65721,-122.557973&spn=0.006404,0.016512&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.657278,-122.55797&panoid=Ecr8MJO3vFXVy6XVO0lLQw&cbp=12,268.18,,1,-2.75)). So if you're on a one-way road, you can legally turn left against a red on a one-way road going left. The only exception is if there's a big white sign that says "No Right Turn on Red Arrow". A little bit of common sense can get traffic rolling.
Oregon is a little iffy on u-turns. I do it anyways. Again, I just use my own judgment on the turning radius of the vehicle I'm driving, traffic conditions and the orthogonal signals. I never looked up the law, and I don't do U-Turns if the po-po is around in O ree gone. Never do a U-Turn if the signal has a protected right turn. Usually the mast should have a no u-turn sign for those.
Quote from: Daniel on December 31, 2012, 10:48:28 PM
Here in Michigan we have a special setup for our turning lights with green and yellow arrows, a red ball, and a separate light box (rectangle more so) mounted right on top of the signal that simply reads "LEFT" or "RIGHT" depending on the direction. It's only on completely restricted and "flashing red" permissive turning lights. It's not on doghouses (which aren't too common here anyway) or flashing yellow arrow turns which just have the out of state standard red arrow. I quite like the light box because it makes the lights and lanes easily distinguishable, especially at night, and no one from out of state seems to have any problems with it. However, I've never seen this setup anywhere outside Michigan, and I've driven through a good portion of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic, and South. It's all red arrows or red balls with a "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign next to it with nothing on top of the light. I wonder if there is anywhere outside of Michigan that uses this and if not, why is Michigan so unique to do this?
I've never quite understood this setup. I mean, it is more succinct than having the static sign for signals that use a circular red and green/yellow arrows. But why not just use the red arrows now? Does Michigan still install this setup, or have they started adopting red arrows yet?
Quote from: roadfro on January 01, 2013, 09:19:35 PM
Quote from: Daniel on December 31, 2012, 10:48:28 PM
Here in Michigan we have a special setup for our turning lights with green and yellow arrows, a red ball, and a separate light box (rectangle more so) mounted right on top of the signal that simply reads "LEFT" or "RIGHT" depending on the direction. It's only on completely restricted and "flashing red" permissive turning lights. It's not on doghouses (which aren't too common here anyway) or flashing yellow arrow turns which just have the out of state standard red arrow. I quite like the light box because it makes the lights and lanes easily distinguishable, especially at night, and no one from out of state seems to have any problems with it. However, I've never seen this setup anywhere outside Michigan, and I've driven through a good portion of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic, and South. It's all red arrows or red balls with a "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign next to it with nothing on top of the light. I wonder if there is anywhere outside of Michigan that uses this and if not, why is Michigan so unique to do this?
I've never quite understood this setup. I mean, it is more succinct than having the static sign for signals that use a circular red and green/yellow arrows. But why not just use the red arrows now? Does Michigan still install this setup, or have they started adopting red arrows yet?
You know, it's so funny you asked, they just installed a completely restricted left turn light with a red arrow and no signature "LEFT" box at an entrance to a shopping center not too far from my house and at another shopping center a bit further away, they installed another as a replacement to an older one with both a red arrow and the "LEFT" box, so I really can't say what they're going for exactly now. I live in Ann Arbor, where it's almost all either completely restricted turning lights or no turning lights at all as opposed to Metro Detroit where it's almost all permissive flashing red ball or the increasingly common flashing yellow arrow. I know all the flashing yellow arrows have just red arrows (except one I've seen in Detroit with both a red arrow and the LEFT box) so maybe they're carrying the red arrow over to the standard for totally restricted turn lights now. I'll have to wait and see, I do hope they keep the LEFT and RIGHT boxes though, they're pretty much a signature Michigan road icon.
One thing I've been wondering about: In states where the red arrows are just now being adopted (like Ohio and, apparently, Michigan), will existing red balls be replaced when their bulbs are replaced/converted to LED, or only when the intersection is reconfigured?
If it's the former, I'd expect to see a lot of signals with red arrows and redundant LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs (or, in Michigan's case, backlit LEFT boxes) cropping up over the next few years as the red balls are phased out.
Quote from: Central Avenue on January 02, 2013, 02:09:20 AM
One thing I've been wondering about: In states where the red arrows are just now being adopted (like Ohio and, apparently, Michigan), will existing red balls be replaced when their bulbs are replaced/converted to LED, or only when the intersection is reconfigured?
If it's the former, I'd expect to see a lot of signals with red arrows and redundant LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs (or, in Michigan's case, backlit LEFT boxes) cropping up over the next few years as the red balls are phased out.
In Michigan, I'm going to assume it's only on completely new installations/light replacements. Rusty cases with LEDs are just something you don't see here. MDOT is in charge of most of our development/construction projects and they overzealously replace lights, signs, and even roads to the point where it's even been joked that the construction barrel should be the state flower. As for Ohio, I really can't say. The few times I've been this year I've seen red arrows at some oddly new all black w/ yellow back plate installations and a couple old turning lights in Sandusky that seemed to have just had the red light converted from ball to arrow with the LTS sign. So it seems like a variety across the state.
Ah, I see. I suppose it depends, to some extent, on who maintains the signal. ODOT seems to have taken to replacing a huge number of their signals outright over the past couple years, adding in the red arrows as they go along, but counties or municipalities who keep their older signals in service might just opt to retrofit the existing ones.
VDOT, at least in Northern Virginia, has been retrofitting some red ball signals with left red arrows as well as taking down the left turn signal signs when this has been done, though there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason to which intersections are being chosen for this retrofitting.
The retrofitting makes sense, esp. around Northern Virginia where most VDOT-maintained signals are not older than 10-15 years old. I wonder if the same is true around the Richmond suburbs with the proliferation of older 80's-era signals, esp. along US-60 and US-250.
IDOT (Illinois) still uses the "Left Turn On Green Arrow" or "Left Turn Signal" signs even with the red arrows.
Quote from: dfnva on January 03, 2013, 09:03:41 PM
VDOT, at least in Northern Virginia, has been retrofitting some red ball signals with left red arrows as well as taking down the left turn signal signs when this has been done, though there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason to which intersections are being chosen for this retrofitting.
The retrofitting makes sense, esp. around Northern Virginia where most VDOT-maintained signals are not older than 10-15 years old. I wonder if the same is true around the Richmond suburbs with the proliferation of older 80's-era signals, esp. along US-60 and US-250.
The other day I saw a signal that had the arrow
and the Left Turn Signal sign, at the easternmost intersection of Monticello Avenue (VA 321) and Ironbound Road (James City County secondary 615) just outside Williamsburg city limits.
Quote from: Takumi on January 03, 2013, 09:44:44 PM
Quote from: dfnva on January 03, 2013, 09:03:41 PM
VDOT, at least in Northern Virginia, has been retrofitting some red ball signals with left red arrows as well as taking down the left turn signal signs when this has been done, though there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason to which intersections are being chosen for this retrofitting.
The retrofitting makes sense, esp. around Northern Virginia where most VDOT-maintained signals are not older than 10-15 years old. I wonder if the same is true around the Richmond suburbs with the proliferation of older 80's-era signals, esp. along US-60 and US-250.
The other day I saw a signal that had the arrow and the Left Turn Signal sign, at the easternmost intersection of Monticello Avenue (VA 321) and Ironbound Road (James City County secondary 615) just outside Williamsburg city limits.
On the other hand, the signal for VA 10 at SR 732(Old Stage Rd) near Chester has just a red ball, which I think was placed in 2011. This may just be temporary until the widening in the area is fully complete though.
There's a total of 9 red balls in Minnesota that I know of, in programmed visibility signals along Lyndale Ave in Bloomington that were installed probably early 1970s. There used to be more, but some were replaced in signal replacement projects.
Quote from: FreewayDan on June 25, 2012, 10:39:29 PM
One single red arrow; no double red arrows.
I also have a preference for Programmable Visibility red ball left turn signals. California and Washington state have many of these configurations with the PV red ball left turn signal at the left end of the mast and a red arrow left turn signal at the left corner.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Anaheim,+CA&hl=en&ll=33.80328,-117.889287&spn=0.001413,0.006539&sll=47.617428,-122.193246&sspn=0.002542,0.006539&oq=Anah&gl=us&hnear=Anaheim,+Orange,+California&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=33.803281,-117.889289&panoid=_sYPI5ntvJ4hcd0hklPByw&cbp=11,82.8,,0,-8.61
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bellevue,+King,+Washington&hl=en&ll=47.617454,-122.193246&spn=0.001146,0.006539&sll=33.80328,-117.889287&sspn=0.003134,0.006539&gl=us&geocode=FQl61gIdmV23-A&hnear=Bellevue,+King,+Washington&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=47.617455,-122.193245&panoid=1cJz938qXqzFKElqN6FE8g&cbp=11,257.25,,1,-3.94
Though I am accustomed to the use of the red arrow, I actually prefer a red ball signal indication.
From where I originally grew up in, many protected left turn traffic signals in New York City used the 8-8-12 traffic signal configuration, in which the two, individual 8" sections were composed of red and amber ball indications, while the 12" indication was, of course, a standard green arrow. To this day, some still exist in various locations of the five boroughs; however, standard 12" traffic signal heads that use arrow indications are far more abundant.
Aside from protected 8-8-12 left turn traffic signals, I also remember I used to see several 12" traffic signal heads that had once used the R/A.A./G.A. configuration. One signalized intersection in particular that had protected left turn traffic signals that used it was the service road that connects to the Belt Pkwy. and Cross Bay Blvd. in Howard Beach, Queens, N.Y. Nowadays, it is rather rare to find one still in service in New York City, since most, if not all, were altered over the years (as far as I know).
I also remember the 8-12-12 traffic signal configuration, in which I am particularly fond of. The set-up consisted of an 8" red ball indication, while the two 12" sections used arrow indications. It was common to see one to serve as a protected left turn signal, but it also served as a general turn signal (either left or right). One could find several in service in Manhattan. Others exist elsewhere in certain locations outside of the city itself; however, I can't remember every one off the top of my head. Additionally, various protected left turn traffic signals that use this configuration are still in use in certain sections of Queens, New York. I'm aware of several from Queens Blvd., Linden Blvd., and Woodhaven Blvd. Over the years, though, New York City altered quite a handful of these, so what still exist are slowly dwindling. Basically, the city replaced the 8" section of the original configuration and replaced it with a 12" section that uses a red arrow signal indication. Makes sense, since it is rather unnecessary to replace the entire traffic signal with a brand new 12" traffic signal head altogether.
The Alabama DOT 1st Division has been retrofitting existing signals with red arrows, but they have not (yet) taken down the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs.
Quote from: codyg1985 on June 03, 2013, 09:15:35 AM
The Alabama DOT 1st Division has been retrofitting existing signals with red arrows, but they have not (yet) taken down the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs.
I don't think that's all that unusual. I see plenty of Left Turn/Right Turn arrows with the "Left Turn Signal"/"Right Turn Signal" sign. Similiarly, I'll see "No Turn On Red" next to a Right Turn Arrow as well, which as well discussed, isn't needed in some states.
Then you have the city of Chicago, which chooses to deliberately violate the MUTCD by having neither red arrow or red balls, instead having signs "left turn on green arrow only".
Quote from: Mdcastle on June 06, 2013, 04:38:58 PM
Then you have the city of Chicago, which chooses to deliberately violate the MUTCD by having neither red arrow or red balls, instead having signs "left turn on green arrow only".
So what would typically be a permissive signal (like a doghouse or tower) is treated like a protected-only left turn signal?
Quote from: codyg1985 on June 06, 2013, 04:42:47 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on June 06, 2013, 04:38:58 PM
Then you have the city of Chicago, which chooses to deliberately violate the MUTCD by having neither red arrow or red balls, instead having signs "left turn on green arrow only".
So what would typically be a permissive signal (like a doghouse or tower) is treated like a protected-only left turn signal?
You got it! CDOT (Chicago Department of Transportation) likes to use five lamp towers and place the signs by them (which, by the way, is in violation of IDOT standards) instead of using a dedicated left turn signal with the signs. CDOT has its own way of doing things which can be very different from the IDOT or ISTHA ways of doing things.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 03, 2013, 12:58:30 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on June 03, 2013, 09:15:35 AM
The Alabama DOT 1st Division has been retrofitting existing signals with red arrows, but they have not (yet) taken down the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs.
I don't think that's all that unusual. I see plenty of Left Turn/Right Turn arrows with the "Left Turn Signal"/"Right Turn Signal" sign. Similiarly, I'll see "No Turn On Red" next to a Right Turn Arrow as well, which as well discussed, isn't needed in some states.
It makes sense to me, at least in the case of a retrofitted arrow. People who are used to the red ball expect to see the LEFT TURN SIGNAL sign, and it doesn't cost anything to leave an existing sign in place for the remainder of its service life, so why not leave it there until people get used to the red arrow?
But how long does it take to get used to a red arrow? It's rather specific, as opposed to a red ball.
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
But how long does it take to get used to a red arrow? It's rather specific, as opposed to a red ball.
Granted. But imagine someone who's used to seeing a red ball with a LEFT sign above it, approaching an intersection where the left arrow (no LEFT sign above it) has burnt out. Does he go by the signals over the through lanes, or does he assume the indication for his movement might be different?
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
But how long does it take to get used to a red arrow? It's rather specific, as opposed to a red ball.
No time at all as it means the same thing. In this state, Illinois, it still requires the use of "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" or "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" signs.
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2013, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
But how long does it take to get used to a red arrow? It's rather specific, as opposed to a red ball.
Granted. But imagine someone who's used to seeing a red ball with a LEFT sign above it, approaching an intersection where the left arrow (no LEFT sign above it) has burnt out. Does he go by the signals over the through lanes, or does he assume the indication for his movement might be different?
Fair point. But in that case, wouldn't there have been another signal with an arrow on it? I might be assuming things, since in Maryland, either there are two signals, or one signal with two red arrows.
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 03:36:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2013, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
But how long does it take to get used to a red arrow? It's rather specific, as opposed to a red ball.
Granted. But imagine someone who's used to seeing a red ball with a LEFT sign above it, approaching an intersection where the left arrow (no LEFT sign above it) has burnt out. Does he go by the signals over the through lanes, or does he assume the indication for his movement might be different?
Fair point. But in that case, wouldn't there have been another signal with an arrow on it? I might be assuming things, since in Maryland, either there are two signals, or one signal with two red arrows.
That's not the case in a lot of places, such as Alabama, Mississippi, or Tennessee (outside of Memphis/Shelby County).
Quote from: Brandon on June 06, 2013, 05:06:02 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on June 06, 2013, 04:42:47 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on June 06, 2013, 04:38:58 PM
Then you have the city of Chicago, which chooses to deliberately violate the MUTCD by having neither red arrow or red balls, instead having signs "left turn on green arrow only".
So what would typically be a permissive signal (like a doghouse or tower) is treated like a protected-only left turn signal?
You got it! CDOT (Chicago Department of Transportation) likes to use five lamp towers and place the signs by them (which, by the way, is in violation of IDOT standards) instead of using a dedicated left turn signal with the signs. CDOT has its own way of doing things which can be very different from the IDOT or ISTHA ways of doing things.
This discussion of Chicago practice reminds me of a situation that existed about 20 years ago in Los Angeles at the intersection of Beverly and La Cienega. The original configuration had left turns from Beverly to La Cienega as a permissive left turn: doghouse on the mastarm and an 8-8-8-12-12 on the left pole.
There was then a project to restripe Beverly to allow for a dual left turn, and in California dual left turns are protective only. They put in signs that said left turn on arrow only. The doghouse operated in the style that you described above, but the signal on the left pole operated like a RA-YA-GA light, except that they still used the old hardware. So 8 red-8 covered-8 covered-12 yellow arrow-12 green arrow. It was very weird looking, but otherwise operated in the expected manner for protective lefts.
This was temporary though, about a month later, they changed the signal faces on and the mastarm and the left pole to the more common RA-YA-GA that we see at most protective only left turns.
Quote from: codyg1985 on June 10, 2013, 03:38:52 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 03:36:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2013, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
But how long does it take to get used to a red arrow? It's rather specific, as opposed to a red ball.
Granted. But imagine someone who's used to seeing a red ball with a LEFT sign above it, approaching an intersection where the left arrow (no LEFT sign above it) has burnt out. Does he go by the signals over the through lanes, or does he assume the indication for his movement might be different?
Fair point. But in that case, wouldn't there have been another signal with an arrow on it? I might be assuming things, since in Maryland, either there are two signals, or one signal with two red arrows.
That's not the case in a lot of places, such as Alabama, Mississippi, or Tennessee (outside of Memphis/Shelby County).
Indeed. Numerous states where there is not a lot (or any) redundancy for left turn signals. Maryland is the notable exception in that it seems to be statewide policy to have at least two (one on the far mast, one on the near mast). Most states, when they have more than one, seem to only use it in urban areas or where there are dual left turn lanes.
Quote from: froggie on September 16, 2013, 01:00:42 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on June 10, 2013, 03:38:52 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 03:36:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 10, 2013, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on June 10, 2013, 10:36:41 AM
But how long does it take to get used to a red arrow? It's rather specific, as opposed to a red ball.
Granted. But imagine someone who's used to seeing a red ball with a LEFT sign above it, approaching an intersection where the left arrow (no LEFT sign above it) has burnt out. Does he go by the signals over the through lanes, or does he assume the indication for his movement might be different?
Fair point. But in that case, wouldn't there have been another signal with an arrow on it? I might be assuming things, since in Maryland, either there are two signals, or one signal with two red arrows.
That's not the case in a lot of places, such as Alabama, Mississippi, or Tennessee (outside of Memphis/Shelby County).
Indeed. Numerous states where there is not a lot (or any) redundancy for left turn signals. Maryland is the notable exception in that it seems to be statewide policy to have at least two (one on the far mast, one on the near mast). Most states, when they have more than one, seem to only use it in urban areas or where there are dual left turn lanes.
Illinois is another of these states that require a minimum of two signals for the turning direction. Quite commonly, one will see two five lamp towers (one on the mastarm, one post-mounted on the far left of the intersection) with one three lamp signal (also on the mastarm with one of the five lamp towers) for a smaller signalized intersection. Illinois also requires the use of three signals per direction of travel, thus two towers and one three-lamp signal fit the bill quite nicely. Even in areas where the FYA is used (IDOT District 4, Peoria), there are always two FYAs for the turning movement and two signals for the through and right movements (three lamp signals), accounting for four signals in a direction of travel.
California also has at least 2 signal faces for left turns as well at each intersection.
I prefer the double red arrow left turn signals that are all over South Carolina, I don't know if any other state uses this set up.
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=33.775404,-78.983131&spn=0.000966,0.001206&t=h&z=20&vpsrc=6&cbll=33.775339,-78.983206&panoid=xJEETdIFdCri8GOtSrRyHg&cbp=12,328.86,,0,0&ei=Rko6UpSwOKKGxgHwi4GwAw&pw=2
Quote from: PColumbus73 on September 18, 2013, 08:55:48 PM
I prefer the double red arrow left turn signals that are all over South Carolina, I don't know if any other state uses this set up.
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=33.775404,-78.983131&spn=0.000966,0.001206&t=h&z=20&vpsrc=6&cbll=33.775339,-78.983206&panoid=xJEETdIFdCri8GOtSrRyHg&cbp=12,328.86,,0,0&ei=Rko6UpSwOKKGxgHwi4GwAw&pw=2
Some counties in Maryland use double red arrows, but orient them vertically instead of horizontally.
Not a big fan of the double left turn arrows. I would much rather see a pole mounted left turn signal head in addition to the overhead left turn signal head. That way, if you are behind a large truck you can still look towards the pole mount signal to tell what indication is being displayed.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhome.comcast.net%2F%7Ejab8356%2Fpics%2Fdiagspanfya.jpg&hash=0730a824158ad3f2f624e89728a665f949568318)
Ahh yes, Michigan's rare diagonal span with flashing yellow arrow. (MDOT switched to box spans, as in 4 spanwires, for new installations several years before introducing the FYA). Feels like an anachronism. Oakland County, right?
Quote from: Central Avenue on January 02, 2013, 02:09:20 AM
One thing I've been wondering about: In states where the red arrows are just now being adopted (like Ohio and, apparently, Michigan), will existing red balls be replaced when their bulbs are replaced/converted to LED, or only when the intersection is reconfigured?
If it's the former, I'd expect to see a lot of signals with red arrows and redundant LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs (or, in Michigan's case, backlit LEFT boxes) cropping up over the next few years as the red balls are phased out.
It's worse than this. I've seen brand new installations, in both the Grand and Southwest regions, that have the "LEFT" banner above a red left arrow. :banghead: Good thing these are always protected left turns, so you at least won't see flashing red arrows.
There's also an old style "LEFT" with red ball (again, protected, never flashing) that was installed just last month. I'm pretty sure MDOT contracted that one out, but... they're getting less consistent and making more mistakes now that there's less variety in acceptable signal types. I don't get that one.
I do like how common doghouse right turn signals are becoming in Michigan, though. :colorful:
Quote from: getemngo on September 19, 2013, 10:30:21 AM
Ahh yes, Michigan's rare diagonal span with flashing yellow arrow. (MDOT switched to box spans, as in 4 spanwires, for new installations several years before introducing the FYA). Feels like an anachronism. Oakland County, right?
Macomb County. It's at 15 Mile & Garfield.
I prefer to see the red arrow. It makes the turn signal consistent with the green and yellow arrows.
QuotePublication Number: FHWA-HRT-04-091
Date: August 2004
Application: Using a 300-mm (12-inch) lens, in particular for the red indication, should improve visibility for the driver, and as such should reduce red light running and associated angle collisions.
Safety Performance: As part of a safety improvement program conducted in Winston-Salem, NC, 300-mm (12-inch) signal lenses were installed on at least one approach at 58 intersections. The result was a 47-percent drop in right angle collisions and a 10-percent drop in total collisions.(135) A before-and-after study was undertaken to assess the effectiveness of larger (300 mm (12 inches)) and brighter signal head displays in British Columbia. Results from an EB analysis showed the frequency of total crashes was reduced by approximately 24 percent with the proposed signal displays. The results were found to be consistent with previous studies and laboratory tests that showed increased signal visibility results in shorter reaction times by drivers and leads to improved safety.(167)
A red ball has better visibility than a red arrow. With a red ball, 100% of the 12" lens is illuminated, whereas with the red arrow maybe only 30-50% of the 12" lens is illuminated. This is one of the simplest reasons why i prefer the red ball.
^^ A red ball should be used as the primary signals at the intersection. The left-turn signal is a supplemental signal and is better to have a red arrow as not to be confused for a primary signal. If the intersection allows left turns only, then it should be a green ball or arrow, yellow ball then red ball.
Charlottesville rarely even uses yellow arrows; most protected turn configurations are R-Y-GA.
The standard in Virginia is to have a red arrow for left turn signals, but I rarely see them.
I often see yellow arrows but not red arrows.
Quote from: Signal on September 21, 2013, 06:16:07 PM
Charlottesville rarely even uses yellow arrows; most protected turn configurations are R-Y-GA.
The standard in Virginia is to have a red arrow for left turn signals, but I rarely see them.
Only in the mid- late 1980s did Virginia (VDOT) regularly start using yellow arrows for protected left signals. This anachronistic practice is still done in rare cases, especially in independent cities which operate their own signals. I didn't know it was still done in Charlottesville.
Protected-permissive signals used yellow arrows before this time.
I concur that a protected turn signal (regardless of direction) should always use a red arrow, not a red ball; to do otherwise is potential cause for confusion.
It should also be noted that only within the past 2-3 years has VDOT standard shifted from red balls to red arrows for left turn signals. It will take some time through the normal signal/bulb replacement process to convert them all.
Can't speak for the entire state, but in SW-Pennsylvania, I don't know that PennDOT has any. (Which isn't to say there aren't any), even a complete redo of signals @ PA-65 (Ohio River Blvd) / McKees Rocks Bridge intersection just a handful of months ago has red balls for the the left signals.
Quote from: froggie on September 23, 2013, 01:54:31 AM
It should also be noted that only within the past 2-3 years has VDOT standard shifted from red balls to red arrows for left turn signals. It will take some time through the normal signal/bulb replacement process to convert them all.
Actually, with regards to Charlottesville, all but a few signals have been converted to LED (happened around 2010). Only a handful remain incandescent, and no signals remain with all sections incandescent.
Also, Charlottesville doesn't do much signal replacing. During the city-wide LED upgrade, all 8" signals or 9" pedestrian signals were replaced, but besides that, very few new signals have been added.
I personally think the ball + sign is better.
Having a ball is better visibility than an arrow, of course; and having a sign? With regards to size, thats about a 600% difference.
The worst thing is when they are both used at the same time: X-(
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7382%2F9941957703_ef2af800e2_z.jpg&hash=0a0508c3a0d121a11b1f70bb88b778ebca488ada) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9941957703/)
IMG_5596 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9941957703/) by Signals Unlimited (http://www.flickr.com/people/94611454@N02/), on Flickr
Quote from: Signal on September 25, 2013, 07:42:23 PM
I personally think the ball + sign is better.
Having a ball is better visibility than an arrow, of course; and having a sign? With regards to size, thats about a 600% difference.
The worst thing is when they are both used at the same time: X-(
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7382%2F9941957703_ef2af800e2_z.jpg&hash=0a0508c3a0d121a11b1f70bb88b778ebca488ada) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9941957703/)
IMG_5596 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/94611454@N02/9941957703/) by Signals Unlimited (http://www.flickr.com/people/94611454@N02/), on Flickr
Here's some red arrow and red ball traffic signals together on the mast arm. Both located in the Woodlands, TX:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8312%2F8005020968_781f32ab3c_z.jpg&hash=ca287f27517ec74f2006f03e6722cbc224465f1e) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/8005020968/)
Westbound Woodlands Parkway at East Panther Creek Drive (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/8005020968/) by FreewayDan (http://www.flickr.com/people/22306412@N07/), on Flickr
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8470%2F8117902653_36d50f5240_z.jpg&hash=fb168a1fe2628fa1d7e281841c16c2154cbee37a) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/8117902653/)
Westbound Research Forest Drive at Cats Cradle Drive (2012) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/8117902653/) by FreewayDan (http://www.flickr.com/people/22306412@N07/), on Flickr
^^ A mix of red balls and arrows.. and also a mix of vertical and horizontal signal heads.
How much visability do you really need for a left arrow? You'll be using a turn lane and slowing down as is. It's not like you need to see what color the turning light is a quarter mile (over 15 seconds) away.
If reduced visibility is a problem, why not apply the dual-red left turn arrows that are in place in South Carolina?
Well in Pa they just started using red arrows honestly I think it's about time because I was tired of the confusing red ball for a protected turn.
In PA, I've seen red arrows in a few random townships outside Philly (i.e. near Fort Washington, Plymouth Meeting)