Interstate Rest Area Commercialization

Started by mtantillo, July 05, 2011, 04:38:01 PM

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mtantillo

http://www.csnews.com/top-story-nacs_launches_lobbying_effort_against_rest_area_commercialization-59036.html

Here's an article about legislation that was introduced to allow commercialization of rest areas, and its possible detrimental effect on businesses along the interchanges. 

What does everyone think?  On one hand, I see more and more states cutting back hours at rest areas or closing them entirely because there is no source of money...people don't pay to use them.  Having commercially viable rest areas would hopefully reverse this trend.  On the other hand, they do have a point about the phenominon of people not being willing to exit in search of services, therefore not only decreasing business activity at off-interstate facilities and driving more traffic to the on-highway facilities, which in turn drives up the prices because of less competition.  It made sense in the era of ticket-system toll roads which required lining up at a toll to pay to exit, and then lining up again to get a ticket on entry, but in this era of electronic toll collection where there is essentially little time penalty for exiting, the service areas on roads like the NJ Turnpike or PA Turnpike seem less appealing.  What the study really should have done is look at the trends on roads with both service areas and free ability to exit/enter along with logo signs at interchanges.  An example would be I-95 in Connecticut.  In NJ, the off-interstate businesses still suffer from an artificial disadvantage since the turnpike does not permit food or gas logo signs, only lodging, whereas there is nothing to suggest that states allowing commercialization of rest areas will pull all of their logo signs for off-interstate food and gas businesses. 

I'm honestly not sure how I feel about this.  I generally avoid stopping at rest areas after dark because of the lack of visible "official presense" of DOT employees or police.  So if a state wants to shut down rest areas at night, I'm all for allowing them to do that, since I'd prefer a truck stop.  I might be more willing to stop at a commercialized rest area after dark as there would be actual people working there that would look out for the safety of their customers.  However, I typically prefer off-interstate facilities during the day as well when I need food or gas, since they have greater vatriety and better prices than service areas.  While I like the idea of a state keeping rest areas open during the day for  quick breaks, I'd rather the state not tinker with the availability of off-interstate businesses by giving ones located in a rest area an "advantage" over those not in the rest area. 

Thoughts?


J N Winkler

#1
Quote from: mtantillo on July 05, 2011, 04:38:01 PMI'm honestly not sure how I feel about this.  I generally avoid stopping at rest areas after dark because of the lack of visible "official presense" of DOT employees or police.  So if a state wants to shut down rest areas at night, I'm all for allowing them to do that, since I'd prefer a truck stop.

I don't agree with this.  I prefer to use on-highway rest areas, regardless of the time of day.  I appreciate that there is more of a danger after dark, but in several hundred thousand miles of driving, I have had nighttime problems at only two rest areas, one on I-91 in Vermont near Stowe and the other on US 277 in Texas near Anson, and in both cases the rest areas were not lit at night.  In neither case was I at imminent risk of violence against my person.  It was simply a question of my sitting in my car with the lights off, generally to grab some shut-eye, seeing another car pull in, and wondering why the other driver didn't get out of his or her car and actually use the facilities.  There are plenty of innocent reasons for this--such as the other driver wanting some shut-eye of his own, or being afraid that I might assault him--but in both cases I chose to leave immediately, and had my suspicions confirmed when the other driver followed me to the next town, where I managed to elude him.

In my experience, when states have to make cutbacks, they will generally close rest areas through the whole day, not just at night, so it would make more sense to focus on providing lighting at rest areas.

It also costs to close rest areas at night.  Someone has to barricade them at dusk and open them again at dawn.  Automatically operated gates could be provided instead, but the capital cost involved would be comparable to installing lighting.  Operating hours and policies would have to be publicized somehow, not just on the Web but also on maps and signs--in short, ways accessible to someone actually on the road--and this would cost money.  Also, in general, the public expects facilities of this type to be available 24 hours a day, and would bitterly resent having to plan rest stops around nocturnal closures.

QuoteThoughts?

Yes.  Why is this issue surfacing now?  What happened to Interstate Oases, which were supposed to be the great white hope for private-sector augmentation of rest area provision?
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Scott5114

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 05, 2011, 05:57:48 PMI have had nighttime problems at only two rest areas, one on I-91 in Vermont near Stowe and the other on US 277 in Texas near Anson, and in both cases the rest areas were not lit at night.  In neither case was I at imminent risk of violence against my person.  It was simply a question of my sitting in my car with the lights off, generally to grab some shut-eye, seeing another car pull in, and wondering why the other driver didn't get out of his or her car and actually use the facilities.  There are plenty of innocent reasons for this--such as the other driver wanting some shut-eye of his own, or being afraid that I might assault him--but in both cases I chose to leave immediately, and had my suspicions confirmed when the other driver followed me to the next town, where I managed to elude him.

Wow. That would be enough to give me the willies...
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Duke87

I don't see what difference it really makes in terms of local economies. Is a job at McDonalds at a service area really any different from a job at McDonalds just off the exit ramp? The logic of "we can't allow services on the highway because we want to support local businesses" hearkens back to another age when there were actually a lot of local businesses around to support. Now it's all just chains, anyway.
Still, prices are almost always higher at service areas because they have a captive audience. So the intelligent motorist will get off the freeway anyway.

Ultimately, though, I support commercialization if it will keep the rest areas open. Simply because it is of value to have places where travelers may use the restroom without having to buy something, where truckers may park for the night, etc.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Brandon

Why not put a business at the rest area?  I like the idea, and it was stupid to disallow making rest areas into service areas (as on toll roads) in the first place.  I'd rather have more service areas run by the state/authority and some business than trying to get off the expressway trying to find an open place that has a useable washroom.  I've had enough of "Mr. Nogttabathroom" at various roadside establishments.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton, "Game of Thrones"

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg, "Monty Python's Life of Brian"

Alps

Interstate Oases only exist in the MUTCD, as far as I know. (I know that's a slight exaggeration) I have no problem with commercialization of rest areas provided that the existing free facilities are retained: information, restrooms, picnic tables, dog areas, etc. If you want to add businesses onto that and have 24/7 operation, and get some money out of the deal, well in this era of states going broke that's just sprinkles on ice cream.

NE2

I'm pretty sure to be on the motorist service signs in Florida you have to have a public bathroom available.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

J N Winkler

Quote from: Steve on July 05, 2011, 08:44:54 PMI have no problem with commercialization of rest areas provided that the existing free facilities are retained: information, restrooms, picnic tables, dog areas, etc.

In principle I don't really have a problem with this, but in practice I can see some states trying to use the private sector to cover a retreat from public-sector rest area provision.  It was suggested that the Interstate Oasis program could be used as a vehicle for this purpose, so many of the comments FHWA received during the comment period made the point that Interstate Oases should be required to provide services similar to those available at free roadside rest areas in order to earn Interstate Oasis signing.  In the final rule, IIRC, FHWA threw out many of the suggested requirements (I had suggested, for example, that they should be required to provide free wi-fi, as Texas and many other states do at their free rest areas), but the ones that were left were still pretty extensive and I suspect this is one reason the Interstate Oasis idea remains parked in the MUTCD along with metric plaques and the doomsday signs.

QuoteIf you want to add businesses onto that and have 24/7 operation, and get some money out of the deal, well in this era of states going broke that's just sprinkles on ice cream.

A few troublesome considerations come to mind.

*  Many Interstate rest areas are located in rural areas ill-favored for commercial development, partly because they were planned and built under the policy which forbade concessions and other forms of private participation in rest areas on Interstates built with Interstate Construction funds.

*  The typical rest area is self-contained, and would require significant redevelopment to accommodate a private business larger than a fruit stand.  Who pays for it?

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2011, 06:24:20 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 05, 2011, 05:57:48 PMIt was simply a question of my sitting in my car with the lights off, generally to grab some shut-eye, seeing another car pull in, and wondering why the other driver didn't get out of his or her car and actually use the facilities.  There are plenty of innocent reasons for this--such as the other driver wanting some shut-eye of his own, or being afraid that I might assault him--but in both cases I chose to leave immediately, and had my suspicions confirmed when the other driver followed me to the next town, where I managed to elude him.

Wow. That would be enough to give me the willies...

Yup, it was real Journey into Fear stuff (though in that book the protagonist actually had authority figures coming to him and saying, "So-and-so represents foreign power X and has orders to kill you if necessary").  The best I can suggest, if it ever happens to you, is to drive to the nearest town and find the courthouse square, which tends to be well-lit and a focus of law enforcement attention.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

corco

#8
QuoteInterstate Oases only exist in the MUTCD, as far as I know.

There's one on I-15 in Idaho, but beyond that I don't know of any off-tollway.

It seems like it works- they got all that added official signage and in exchange I got to go to a normal Flying J without feeling obligated to spend money to use the bathroom.

But yeah, I'd echo the comments that when I'm looking for a place to pee, nothing tops a government rest area.

Scott5114

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 05, 2011, 10:32:26 PM
Yup, it was real Journey into Fear stuff (though in that book the protagonist actually had authority figures coming to him and saying, "So-and-so represents foreign power X and has orders to kill you if necessary").  The best I can suggest, if it ever happens to you, is to drive to the nearest town and find the courthouse square, which tends to be well-lit and a focus of law enforcement attention.

My thought would be to find a staffed, 24-hour convenience store or truck stop, and immediately proceed into the store and inform the clerk what is going on. One would hope that the clerk's presence would be enough of a deterrent to the pursuer, and if necessary summoning the police could be easily done.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

deathtopumpkins

...are most states' rest areas open 24/7? If so that's news to me. I'm used to them being only open 9-5 or so (some are better and open 6-10), but I've only been up and down the east coast.
Having 24-hour rest areas would have been nice though when coming down the Eastern Shore with a terribly sick passenger at about 3 AM. You would not believe how much trouble I had finding bathrooms every 30 minutes or so, because after the NJTP, none of the rest areas were open anymore the whole way. All had limited hours in Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia.
Disclaimer: All posts represent my personal opinions and not those of my employer.

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corco

Quote...are most states' rest areas open 24/7? If so that's news to me. I'm used to them being only open 9-5 or so (some are better and open 6-10), but I've only been up and down the east coast.

Definitely west of the Mississippi most if not all are open 24/7, but often have restrictions on how long you can be there at night (almost all prohibit overnight camping, there's usually a 3-8 hour cap on how long you can be there) and theoretically the highway patrol checks on them- I don't know about the eastern US.

J N Winkler

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 06, 2011, 12:07:12 AM...are most states' rest areas open 24/7? If so that's news to me. I'm used to them being only open 9-5 or so (some are better and open 6-10), but I've only been up and down the east coast.

Yes, rest areas are generally open 24/7, although some of the services offered--such as tourism information, motel reservations, free coffee, etc.--may be available on a more restricted schedule.

QuoteHaving 24-hour rest areas would have been nice though when coming down the Eastern Shore with a terribly sick passenger at about 3 AM. You would not believe how much trouble I had finding bathrooms every 30 minutes or so, because after the NJTP, none of the rest areas were open anymore the whole way. All had limited hours in Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia.

I find this hard to believe.  I know that VDOT has had to close rest areas because of budget problems, but I was not aware they had stopped providing 24/7 availability at the ones that haven't been closed altogether.  I haven't been to Virginia in 13 years but, when I worked summers in Greenbelt, Maryland in the late 1990's, I used VDOT rest areas several times in the small hours of the morning.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Brandon

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 06, 2011, 12:07:12 AM
...are most states' rest areas open 24/7? If so that's news to me. I'm used to them being only open 9-5 or so (some are better and open 6-10), but I've only been up and down the east coast.
Having 24-hour rest areas would have been nice though when coming down the Eastern Shore with a terribly sick passenger at about 3 AM. You would not believe how much trouble I had finding bathrooms every 30 minutes or so, because after the NJTP, none of the rest areas were open anymore the whole way. All had limited hours in Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia.

In Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, and Wisconsin, they're open 24/7.  The Welcome Center portion of the rest area has its own hours, but the washrooms are always open.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton, "Game of Thrones"

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg, "Monty Python's Life of Brian"

1995hoo

I seldom stop at the service areas for any purpose other than toilet breaks and possibly using the vending machines, so I'm somewhat neutral to the idea of service areas versus rest areas from the standpoint of my own travel choices. But I agree with the sentiment in the OP's last paragraph about preferring off-Interstate facilities for food and gas. One of the things that make me scratch my head about the way many Americans travel is the number of people who will travel somewhere and then go to the same restaurants they can visit at home–that is, the continued commodification of the food scene via the increasing prevalence of chain restaurants. That's not to say that chains are bad. We stopped at an Arby's in Emporia on Saturday night after nine hours on the road and it really hit the spot while being quick enough that we could finish the last 160 miles home without getting too tired. But I like to find (a) the local places when I can, (b) the variety not offered in service areas, and (c) a selection of both fast-food places for when I'm in a hurry and sit-down places with menu service for when I'm not. We used to stop at a local diner in New Castle all the time on trips to New York until we got completely fed up with the I-95 route and started using the I-78 way.

As it is, many Americans tend to gravitate to the chains–they'll drive 850 miles and then go to Outback, same as they would at home–and I think in many places it's had a bit of a detrimental effect when it comes to the availability of non-chain offerings at interchanges. I suppose part of that is inevitable because someone on a long drive is more likely to want fast food, and that's fine. My concern would be that if the service areas became more prevalent, that many more people would stop at those out of convenience. That means in turn that the off-interchange locations get less business. The potential domino effect means that if the off-interchange fast food locations continue to get the majority of the business among the off-interchange restaurants, the full-service places potentially see a decline as well (for example, the Burger King is too crowded so you decide to visit a diner instead; if you now have a Five Guys at the service area, Burger King is less crowded and you have less reason to visit the diner), and potentially you see some of them getting squeezed out.

To me that sort of thing is a negative. I don't think it's a far-fetched scenario, either. The service areas on the toll roads in the Northeast can get extremely crowded even when the offerings are the same as those off the highway. No doubt part of the reason is a potential disincentive not mentioned yet in this thread–on some ticket-system toll roads, you pay a higher toll if you exit and get back on than you do if you stay on the road the whole time, even if you pay electronically. (I looked up the toll for our drive from Pembroke Pines to Viera last Monday via the Sawgrass Expressway, Florida's Turnpike, and untolled I-95. It was $5.90 with SunPass. Had we exited the Turnpike somewhere for lunch and then re-entered, it would have been at least 50¢ more using SunPass, and paying cash it would have been a couple of dollars. I think for many drivers who squawk about paying ANY toll as it is, the added toll is a major disincentive.) But surely the convenience is a huge motivator. I also wonder to what extent some of the other off-interchange businesses might experience a knock-on effect if service areas were more prevalent; the ones that most readily come to mind at this moment are the places in South Carolina that sell firecrackers. If you're already exiting for gas and food, it's often logical enough to stop for other things (like firecrackers) at the same time, but if you're now able to stop at a service area for gas and food, suddenly it becomes a lot more of a nuisance to pull off the highway for a single stop like that unless you're very motivated.

On the other hand, while I seldom buy gas at the service areas (especially in New Jersey because I hate letting someone else pump my gas), I will certainly concede that when you're in an unfamiliar area it can be nice to have the on-highway option rather than being in the position of potentially having to buy crap gas from a no-name local station because you're running low, and I also agree that when it's late at night I have no hesitation about stopping at a service area on the Thruway or the New Jersey Turnpike whereas I might be–indeed was this past Saturday night–reluctant to stop at a less-busy rest area.


BTW, regarding J N Winkler's comment about VDOT closing rest areas, that happened during the previous governor's administration where some rest areas were closed, while several of them that were believed to have more "economic value" via distribution of tourist literature in high-traffic corridors were left open. (Examples: The one on eastbound I-64 between Richmond and Williamsburg was kept open; the one on I-66 near Manassas was closed.) The current governor made re-opening the rest areas a campaign issue and they re-opened all of them during the first several months of his term. As far as I know the toilet facilities are indeed open 24 hours. I've never paid much attention to the tourist info desks because as a Virginia resident I've never needed the tourist info and so just never had reason to pay attention.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Laura

#15
I live in Maryland, not too too far from the Maryland House and Chesapeake House rest areas, which are commercialized (and have an exception for existence because I-95 is technically a "toll road").

I don't really frequent the Chesapeake House, but the Maryland House is my unlikely best friend because of the unlimited access to official maps and because the place is chock full of different express chain restaurants that aren't found anywhere else in the area (such as Phillip's Seafood and Roy Rogers!)

Personally, I don't think it's a bad idea to commercialize rest stops. It might not work in all areas, but it could bring some different fast food chains into the mix and would increase usability and safely of the areas at nighttime. I would certainly use them - it would sure beat trying to find a Wawa/Sheetz/24 hour gas station off the highway for resting (which have the added bonus of unofficially usually having a police car present).

ETA: The Maryland House is between the exits for Riverside and Aberdeen, both which are towns/cities that have plenty of chain and original restaurants.

1995hoo

I remember when the Maryland House had a real sit-down restaurant with menu service rather than fast food.   :-D

It was always crowded back then too.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Laura

#17
Oh man, really? I had no idea that the Maryland House had a sit-down restaurant inside! When did it change?

mtantillo

Almost all rest areas in NH and VT have limited hours.  VT I-91 welcome center is 7am to 11pm.  I-93 welcome center and I-91 rest area near US 302 are open 7 to 7.  NH I-93 rest area in Littleton open 8 - 8 and closed Mon to Wed completely.  Maryland has a bunch of ones which operate 9 - 5 only...US 15, US 301. And on I-68, the Sideling Hill area is seasonal.

Really not a big deal to close them...just a few plaques on signs, and the attendant just shuts the gates on the way out as well as turn off the lights.  

Interstate Oasis was always a theoretical idea,much like 24 hour pharmacy signs.  A specific industry lobbied to have it included in the MUTCD but state DOT officials refuse to acknowledge its existence.  Any DOT person I know says the Specific Service Sign program works just fine.  If you want a truck stop, look for the Flying J or TA or Pilot logo, not a palm tree in Idaho!!

1995hoo

#19
Quote from: Laura Bianca on July 06, 2011, 09:31:56 AM
Oh man, really? I had no idea that the Maryland House had a sit-down restaurant inside! When did it change?

If memory serves, it was sometime during the 1980s. I remember we used to stop there periodically when I was a little kid and it had a sit-down restaurant, but by the time I got my driver's license it had switched over to fast food. I'll see if I can find anything online about it. I remember my brother losing a stuffed animal in the car park there at some point during the 1970s.

Based on the notation in your profile about your age, it's no surprise that you wouldn't remember it (no offense intended!).


Edited to add: A Google search for "Maryland House rest area history" turned up a Yelp page of reviews of the Maryland House, one of which contains this: "It has gone through many changes over the years (a restaurant with fine china and white-linen tablecloths is long gone) ...." I'll check out other search results later–need to get something done for an actual paying client.  :-D
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Laura

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 06, 2011, 09:42:12 AM

Based on the notation in your profile about your age, it's no surprise that you wouldn't remember it (no offense intended!).


Edited to add: A Google search for "Maryland House rest area history" turned up a Yelp page of reviews of the Maryland House, one of which contains this: "It has gone through many changes over the years (a restaurant with fine china and white-linen tablecloths is long gone) ...." I'll check out other search results later–need to get something done for an actual paying client.  :-D

Haha, no offense taken!

Very interesting - I found the Yelp site you referenced (http://www.yelp.com/biz/maryland-house-travel-plaza-aberdeen) as well as some other cool sites:

Maryland House's wikipedia page: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland_House)

"Overview: Maryland House was opened in 1963 and was renovated in 1987. Wing additions to the Maryland House facility were added in 1989 and 1990. The Maryland House services 2.8 million customers annually.[2] Today, Maryland House is run by the HMSHost Corporation. U.S. Federal law prescribes that rest areas on public (toll-free) interstate highways be maintained by the state, however Maryland was able to obtain an exemption, allowing them to commercialize the Maryland House and Chesapeake House service areas.[6] This exemption was granted due to the fact that the service areas were constructed when the John F. Kennedy Memorial Highway was a toll road. Now, Maryland is responsible for the grounds, while the commercial operators absorb the costs of operation. WTOP-FM says that the two commercialized rest-stops bring in $40 million per annum.[7]

Previously, Maryland House had a Bob's Big Boy restaurant, a Mrs. Fields shop, and a cafeteria."

And another fantastic read: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/traffic/2009/08/toll_authority_plodding_ahead.html

"When the Maryland House opened, with an estimated construction cost of $660,000, the pace of American life was so leisurely that the plaza included a restaurant with fine china and white-linen tablecloths. But the debut of the facility, which at the time was the only dining spot on a 100-mile stretch of highway between New Jersey and Washington, was followed by controversy over its monopolistic food prices - as much as $2.65 for a steak sandwich.

    The company that ran the restaurant backed off its high prices, cutting the price of a hamburger from 50 cents to 40 cents under pressure from state officials.

    Over the years, the building has undergone retrofit after retrofit and now includes a lineup of name-brand fast-food providers as well as Internet access and Wi-Fi capability. With cell phones now ubiquitous, what was once a second-floor bank of pay phones has been turned into a conference room. Two wings have been added to the original building, including one that provided a much-needed second entrance."

Quote from: mtantillo on July 06, 2011, 09:41:13 AM
Almost all rest areas in NH and VT have limited hours.  VT I-91 welcome center is 7am to 11pm.

I have to admit that I was genuinely surprised that the I-91 Welcome Center was open until 11pm when I visited back in November. Are there other examples around the country of Welcome Centers that stay open very late?

J N Winkler

Quote from: mtantillo on July 06, 2011, 09:41:13 AMAlmost all rest areas in NH and VT have limited hours.  VT I-91 welcome center is 7am to 11pm.  I-93 welcome center and I-91 rest area near US 302 are open 7 to 7.  NH I-93 rest area in Littleton open 8 - 8 and closed Mon to Wed completely.

They close the toilets too?  That swamp Yankee stuff would never fly out here.

QuoteMaryland has a bunch of ones which operate 9 - 5 only...US 15, US 301.

Those are off-Interstate rest areas.  In Kansas there are a number of rest areas on non-freeway heavy trucking corridors (e.g. US 54) and some of these were closed early in Kathleen Sebelius' first term as governor.  To my knowledge, however, KDOT has not attempted to close any Interstate rest areas.

QuoteReally not a big deal to close them...just a few plaques on signs, and the attendant just shuts the gates on the way out as well as turn off the lights.

It is still a big deal.  First, you have to have an attendant, and that attendant has to be there at least twice a day at specific times of day.  When a rest area operates 24/7, the janitor can show up anytime as long as the facilities get cleaned to a specific standard at the designated frequency.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

deathtopumpkins

The Virginia ones in question were, as previously stated, off-interstate (but still on a major highway that really ought to be an interstate), while most interstate rest areas at least have the parking lot open 24/7. Maryland on the other hand is different. I know the rest area on I-270 closes at either dusk or some time like 5 or 6 PM.
Disclaimer: All posts represent my personal opinions and not those of my employer.

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mtantillo

Quote from: J N Winkler on July 06, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
Quote from: mtantillo on July 06, 2011, 09:41:13 AMAlmost all rest areas in NH and VT have limited hours.  VT I-91 welcome center is 7am to 11pm.  I-93 welcome center and I-91 rest area near US 302 are open 7 to 7.  NH I-93 rest area in Littleton open 8 - 8 and closed Mon to Wed completely.

They close the toilets too?  That swamp Yankee stuff would never fly out here.

Yes, it is one building, with one entrance, either everything is open, or everything is closed.  Not sure if they barricade the parking or not. 

Honestly, I don't blame them, those roads are not heavily traveled corridors and the usage statistics would likely be very low for the overnight hours.  Not worth the cost of the lights and staffing during the overnight periods based on a cost benefit analysis. 

QuoteMaryland has a bunch of ones which operate 9 - 5 only...US 15, US 301.

Those are off-Interstate rest areas.  In Kansas there are a number of rest areas on non-freeway heavy trucking corridors (e.g. US 54) and some of these were closed early in Kathleen Sebelius' first term as governor.  To my knowledge, however, KDOT has not attempted to close any Interstate rest areas.

I think the I-68 welcome center also has limited hours.  Interstate or non-interstate doesn't really matter though, the cost/benefit analysis is going to be based on real numbers of people using the rest areas, and it is very well possible that some off-interstate ones may be more utilized than some on-interstate ones.  Traffic volumes on US 15 and US 301 are probably pretty close to that of I-68, and the off-interstate ones have the benefit of serving two directions of travel. 

QuoteReally not a big deal to close them...just a few plaques on signs, and the attendant just shuts the gates on the way out as well as turn off the lights.

It is still a big deal.  First, you have to have an attendant, and that attendant has to be there at least twice a day at specific times of day.  When a rest area operates 24/7, the janitor can show up anytime as long as the facilities get cleaned to a specific standard at the designated frequency.

Maryland rest areas, as well as the ones in other states I am familiar with have to have an attendant on duty when the rest area is open, minus short meal breaks, I assume.  That was part of the justification for closing the Maryland rest areas overnight...only need one or two shifts instead of three, and that is a bona-fide cost savings.  The attendant, when he/she arrives for work in the morning, opens the gates/turns on light/unlocks the doors on the way in, and whomever is on duty in the off hours shuts it down at the end of the shift.  Virginia has all of their rest areas open 24/7 to the best of my knowledge, but they still have attendants on duty in the office all the time.  Not a very visible official presense, as they are not necessarily out serving customers like you would see in a service area, but they are there. 

Vermont's have always closed overnight, while NH's and MD's limited hours are new as a result of budget considerations. 

J N Winkler

Quote from: mtantillo on July 06, 2011, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on July 06, 2011, 11:35:20 AMThey close the toilets too?  That swamp Yankee stuff would never fly out here.

Yes, it is one building, with one entrance, either everything is open, or everything is closed.  Not sure if they barricade the parking or not.

Honestly, I don't blame them, those roads are not heavily traveled corridors and the usage statistics would likely be very low for the overnight hours.  Not worth the cost of the lights and staffing during the overnight periods based on a cost benefit analysis.

I would agree on the staffing but not the lighting.  I do not think states should, in general, have any policies requiring staffing of rest areas while they are open (see below).  In any case, cost-benefit analysis of rest area provision is tricky because many of the features counted as benefits, such as the opportunity to go to the bathroom, are either not traded on the open market or, if traded, are available only jointly with other goods or services.

QuoteMaryland rest areas, as well as the ones in other states I am familiar with have to have an attendant on duty when the rest area is open, minus short meal breaks, I assume.

That is not how it works in Kansas.  It is the norm for rest areas to be open 24/7 with no staffing and no systematic surveillance or other form of official attention except occasional visits from the Highway Patrol and a janitor.  It is not uncommon to pull off the freeway and find that your car is the only one in the parking area.

This said, the fittings in Kansas rest areas tend to have more in common with prisons than homes and commercial establishments.  Toilet bowls are stainless steel without seats.  Toilet stalls have either no doors, or heavy substantial doors designed to resist forcible intrusion.  Mirrors are available but are polished sheet metal with no glass.  Sinks either have concealed drain openings or screens over the plughole to frustrate attempts at blockage.  Floors and walls are either tile or impervious paving.  Urinals are stainless steel rather than porcelain (in general, nothing is used that can be easily broken and creates a cutting edge when broken).

QuoteThat was part of the justification for closing the Maryland rest areas overnight...only need one or two shifts instead of three, and that is a bona-fide cost savings.  The attendant, when he/she arrives for work in the morning, opens the gates/turns on light/unlocks the doors on the way in, and whomever is on duty in the off hours shuts it down at the end of the shift.  Virginia has all of their rest areas open 24/7 to the best of my knowledge, but they still have attendants on duty in the office all the time.  Not a very visible official presense, as they are not necessarily out serving customers like you would see in a service area, but they are there.

With such a cost-intensive model of rest area provision, it is hardly surprising that the mid-Atlantic states (as well as Vermont and New Hampshire) view rest areas as an easy cut.  But I don't view commercialization of rest areas as a good solution to this problem (at least for the majority of existing free rest areas which are not part of service areas) because commercialization would require significant site redevelopment to work.  Such redevelopment is a capital cost which the private sector would expect the public sector to pay as compensation for the uncertain profitability of the existing locations.  Subventions from the public purse would be better spent abolishing the need for continuous staffing and reducing other running costs.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini



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