School Busses and Their rules

[hbelkins]

Back to America. Why do school buses open the front door when they stop at railroad tracks?

To listen for trains.

They do this in Kentucky, too. Probably a federal requirement.

I have also noted that gasoline tankers and propane trucks come to a complete stop at RR crossings.

[Michael in Philly]

I don't care if you don't care. I still care. So, Day 5: Rainyd, eh?
The Route: Old M-21 east to Port Huron, on over to ON 402 (clinch), 401, 403. I dropped off 402 briefly to see old signs on former Highway 4 in Talbotville. From the 403 I took the QEW to 427 (clinch), circled around via regional roads to Airport Rd., and went around the terminals to get to Highway 409 (clinch). I U-turned on the QEW and took the 403 to clinch it, then dropped off onto local streets to get to Lakeshore Rd., which crosses the lift bridge next to the QEW Burlington Skyway. I snapped the requisite photos and continued on the QEW into Buffalo for food, then exited on NY 33 to I-90, picking up some more miles of my last NY Interstate to NY 96, which I clinched by following south to NY 434. I then went through Pennsylvania on PA 858, 706, 367, US 6, I-81, I-380, and I-80, with a little surprise detour thanks to a possibly errant VMS on I-380 that warned of a roadway closure ahead. So I ended up following PA 940, PA 314, and PA 611 to get to 80.

The Notes: Local roads seem to be more patch than pavement near Flint as I head east along former M-21. Avoid the town of Burton, as its lights are timed to hit every single one. Luckily, I seem to have budgeted enough time for that pithole of a town so that I still come out okay. 6 miles should not take 20 minutes to drive. Further east, old M-21 is clearly the lifeline of many communities still, like LaPeer. It should not have been decommissioned, not the least because I don't think it's been repaved since it was a state highway.

I wish American radio stations had the same Canadian content law as Canadian stations. That's some really good music. I get to hear subgenres that are delightfully different and usually more of an indie sound.

Saw an ad: "Is Grandma fading away? We can restore old photos." Sensitivity fail.

Ontario notes: Both sides of the Blue Water Bridge are reversible. Probably started with the first one being two-way, and now they have the availability to close one as needed. Lots of old signs on Highway 4/former 4, not just the one overhead. It's signed as Highway 4 from the 402, but then you get TO 4 once you're on the surface - because it was decommissioned within London. Seriously, Ontario, maintain your roads and stop dumping them off. Highway 402 is being repaved east of 4 to the end at 401. Drivers kept very good lane discipline on the 402 (as I've noticed on the 417), but did not attempt to do so on the 401, 403, or QEW, which I attribute to those durned furriners muddling everything up, except all of the offending drivers are Ontarian...

I have learnt (Canadian spelling, there) that the 401 isn't the only quad carriageway in the province - also see the 427 south of the 401. The 427 six-lane section needs to extend from Derry Rd. to the 407 for now, until it's extended beyond Zenway Rd. Regional Road 50 is under construction, appears to be widening to 6 lanes north of Queen St. (former Highway 7). How disappointing that Pearson Airport uses Clearview everywhere (starting to pop up around the province). Positive or negative contrast, letters or numerals, it's there.

Construction closed the Western Rd. NB onramp to the 401 WB, which I was planning to use as a U-turn. I had to use the next exit on Western Rd. and U-turn there to use the SB onramp. The same construction also snarled traffic on the 401 WB collector. (In Ontario, collectors are not distributors, although they really do serve both functions of course.) It appears to be a full-depth resurfacing of the collector, which I assume will slowly progress to or has slowly progressed from redoing the other roadways.

I found a remaining M-C Expressway shield on the 401 westbound just before the 403 split, between the two WB roadways. Unfortunately, being in the express lanes, there was no easy way to circle around for a photo, so I missed it. I'm posting the location so someone else can snag it for me (and submit to my site, pretty please?).

Ontario seems to have abandoned the flashing green in favor of the green arrow on new installations. I noticed that in different areas, pedestrian signals may count to 0 either at the end of green or yellow, which doesn't help me plan my approach to the signal (assuming I can make it through after 0 only to find it yellow on 4). It must be done town by town, if not regionally.

2-way left turn lanes in Ontario have the dashed line on the outside of the solid line, which makes a lot more sense than the American standard of the dashed line on the inside. After all, dashed line means you can cross, solid line means you can't, so how can you legally cross the solid line to enter the TWLTL in the US?

Back to America. Why do school buses open the front door when they stop at railroad tracks? They're able to stop at red lights and stop signs just fine without opening the door. When I was a pedestrian around Boston, I used to consider jumping onto a bus or school bus at the local railroad crossing for fun. If the bus did that at a toll booth, the door would jam or break something.

I lost my trip notes at this point, meaning I had no way back home beyond NY 96. Luckily, as I searched frantically, I dug up the backup copy that had been missing for the first four days. This is why I always print a backup and drop it in the car for safekeeping. Next time, maybe I'll drop it in a more memorable place.

I love my car's hill descent capability. I went downhill into Ithaca on NY 96 SB without touching the brake once - I even had to goose the gas a bit as the hill leveled out. The car in front of me rode the brakes for 2 miles, by comparison.

Into Pennsylvania. I've said it before, PA's state routes would barely qualify as county highways in other states. PA 858 was, if anything, worse than the NY county road that led to it. The roads in PA just follow wherever the landscape goes, instead of providing a smoother, straighter alignment like other states (particularly MD, though NY is good at this as well). There are no shoulders on many roads, or else no shoulder striping, and sometimes not even any center striping. Bear in mind I'm talking about primary, ostensibly signed state highways (though many of them are missing the most basic of reference markers, despite being chevroned to death), not just the 4-digit back roads. Oh, yeah, there are way too many (and unnecessary) warning signs on PA roads, which I'm sure anyone who's driven there knows. End rant.

All that said, PA 858 is devilishly fun to drive, as long as you don't run into any traffic on the way (I didn't). It has no centerline and follows the terrain, making it a challenge to go 60 mph the whole way. Oh, the speed limit is 40? That would be no fun at all. Only go 40 if you or someone you love has motion sickness, in which case you want to avoid PA anyway (among many other reasons). Does Pennsylvania underpost its speed limits? Consider that I took a 25 MPH posted curve at 55 MPH easily - on a road with a 45 MPH limit (that then went back down to 40). So, yes.

I-84 really needs to be extended west across Pennsylvania via the US 6 corridor. US 6 is two lanes with few passing zones, lots of trucks, and construction zone disasters that reduce the main artery in the region to one lane at a long traffic light. I wrote this note while traveling at an inhuman 10 mph. All part of what I hate about Pennsylvania. How can US 6/11 go from 4-lane divided (with a 45 MPH speed limit because PA sucks) to 2-lane undivided, 25 mph, through the center of Clarks Summit? Does PA have no concept of a through road or how to move traffic? Lessons from US 202, US 1, US 222, and many other roads suggest I'm on the money with that.

The VMS on I-380 warned that I-80 EB was closed at Exit 301. There is no Exit 301. I-80 EB wasn't closed, just one lane may have been. Nonetheless, I took my impromptu detour, only to find out that access from PA 611 to I-80 EB is closed. The detour goes via PA 191 and then curls back around backwards on 611 instead of continuing south. I just don't care. I want to get out of PA to get cheaper gas in NJ.

P.S. Final mileage: 2,800, maybe a tiny bit more.

Speaking as a Pennsylvanian by choice, you're perfectly welcome to stay in New Jersey. 

[PAHighways]

Into Pennsylvania. I've said it before, PA's state routes would barely qualify as county highways in other states. PA 858 was, if anything, worse than the NY county road that led to it. The roads in PA just follow wherever the landscape goes, instead of providing a smoother, straighter alignment like other states (particularly MD, though NY is good at this as well). There are no shoulders on many roads, or else no shoulder striping, and sometimes not even any center striping. Bear in mind I'm talking about primary, ostensibly signed state highways (though many of them are missing the most basic of reference markers, despite being chevroned to death), not just the 4-digit back roads. Oh, yeah, there are way too many (and unnecessary) warning signs on PA roads, which I'm sure anyone who's driven there knows. End rant.

Sounds like PA 284, but it is not surprising considering where it is located in the state.  It is not to say there are no shoulders on any mile of PA routes, it varies from route to route and when said routes were constructed.  Just tonight I was on one with a full shoulder, but a mile away there is one with a narrow shoulder, and even further away one with no shoulder.

Does Pennsylvania underpost its speed limits? Consider that I took a 25 MPH posted curve at 55 MPH easily - on a road with a 45 MPH limit (that then went back down to 40).

Yes, that is why people mostly drive 10+limit.  The State Police knew this, that is why when Governor Ridge raised the limit to 65, they told him not to go any further because they knew people would at the very least be going 75.

I-84 really needs to be extended west across Pennsylvania via the US 6 corridor. US 6 is two lanes with few passing zones, lots of trucks, and construction zone disasters that reduce the main artery in the region to one lane at a long traffic light. I wrote this note while traveling at an inhuman 10 mph. All part of what I hate about Pennsylvania. How can US 6/11 go from 4-lane divided (with a 45 MPH speed limit because PA sucks) to 2-lane undivided, 25 mph, through the center of Clarks Summit? Does PA have no concept of a through road or how to move traffic?

I-84 does not need to be extended considering that the traffic counts along US 6 do not warrant a freeway, not to mention the headache trying to carve an Interstate through the Allegheny National Forest.

[Brandon]

Back to America. Why do school buses open the front door when they stop at railroad tracks?

To listen for trains.

They do this in Kentucky, too. Probably a federal requirement.

I have also noted that gasoline tankers and propane trucks come to a complete stop at RR crossings.

It's a federal law for school buses to stop at all RR grade crossings.  It's archaic and stupid, IMHO.  It was fine for a time when grade crossing lacked lights and gates, but in the modern era, it's silly.

[Brandon]

Day 3 was essentially what I posted in the meet recap, so on to:

Day 4: Leaves are Peeping, Frost is Biting.
The Route (somewhat simpler today): WI 52 EB (clinch) to WI 32 NB, US 8 EB to US 2 EB all the way across the Upper Peninsula. SB across the Mackinac Bridge (in daylight, finally) to US 23 SB all the way back to I-75. I then hopped up to the next exit for a U-turn, back along US 23 to M-13 SB (clinch) and east to Flint to my hotel.

The Notes (somewhat shorter today): Wisconsin clearly has high standards for its roads - after the "ROUGH ROAD NEXT 20 MILES" signs, the road was still very smooth. Only well after the 20 miles were up was there a bumpy stretch of road where the concrete joints still poke through the asphalt.

I looked it up - WIS 32 has red arrows because it's a memorial to the 32nd Infantry Brigade. Okay, fine. I still got the photo.

US 2/41 is divided north of Escanaba. Not only is it original concrete, but it may well be the only 65 MPH road on the Upper Peninsula. (I-75 would be 70 MPH.) However, I didn't see nearly as much traffic near Escanaba as I did near I-75, and nowhere enough to warrant more than four undivided lanes. Speaking of which, US 2 (and later US 23) have a different style of passing lane than I'm used to. Instead of a three-lane section with alternating passing lanes by side (such as Maritime Canada favors), Michigan takes the two-lane section and widens it to four lanes for a mile and a half or more, and then back to two for awhile. I wonder what the advantages are that Michigan may see.

Found a surprise lighthouse in Manistique at Lake Michigan Beach, where there were undertow warnings posted. Really? Who's going into the water? There should be hypothermia warnings posted if anything. Also, despite what I was expecting, the foliage really hasn't come out yet in the Upper Peninsula. So I was left with numerous views of Lake Michigan east of M-117 as the best scenery around.

The undertow on the Lakes can be quite fierce.  In addition, be surprised at who uses the Lake when it's cooler out.  You have fishermen, boaters, surfers (when windy), and even swimmers until it gets below 70F.  These are Yoopers you're talking about.  A hot day is 80F there. 

Before leaving the U.P., I ate at Suzy's Pasties, as recommended to me. (It sounds like "past," not "paste.") They know how to make pasties and smoked fish up here, that's for sure. All of the pastie shops seemed to be located within 10 miles of the Mackinac Bridge, though. Speaking of which, there are some nice views along US 2. The best view is at the official-seeming bridge center just west of I-75 behind the Quality Inn. It's not easy to find and not particularly well signed, but a good stop.

US 23 has a long repaving and drainage project going on south of Cheboygan. In other construction news, I-75 SB has the left lane closed 2 miles south of Exit 188 (US 23), which led to a 2-mile delay right at the exit. I was taking the exit anyway (to get to the top of M-13), so my only annoyance was having to deal with all the diverted traffic from I-75 until they filtered their way back. Once I got down to Bay City, M-13 was again empty.

In Linwood, I looked around and realized I was the only foreign car on the road. That's part of being in Michigan. Whoops. Umm... buy American. Yeah. Also, Linwood smells like peanuts. Avoid M-13 if you're allergic.

It's called "buy what you build".  The Germans do it, the Japanese do it, we should too. 

I was surprised to find that M-13 is wide-open from Bay City to Saginaw, with no traffic or development. (I'd like to stop typing "Sagniaw" any sentence now.) Why did suburbs never develop between the Tri-Cities? M-13 is 55 mph into Saginaw and remains 50 mph until downtown, quickly coming back up to 45 and then 55 as soon as you get to the other side. Anywhere else, the road would be signed at 40 given the numerous driveways, railroad crossings, and sharp curves. Even the detoured I-75 traffic didn't slow M-13 down, so I ended up saving 15 minutes on this leg. Combined with 15-minute savings on several earlier legs, I made it into Flint at sundown (7:17) instead of 8:00. Which is exactly what I was aiming for when I left at 6:45 (Central).

Because some states have drivers that can handle 55 on a street like that.  This isn't the East Coast. 

While detouring to the covered bridge in Frankenmuth, I crossed Dixie Highway, former US 23. It's actually still striped as four lanes, although it has zero traffic. Literally zero traffic north of Curtis Rd. because the bridge is out over the Cass River - the same little river that the covered bridge crosses.

P.S. Flint is so dead, it's scary. I ran red lights to get back on the highway and far away from downtown before finding my hotel.

Flint is dead, but not as scary as you think.

[Scott5114]

Back to America. Why do school buses open the front door when they stop at railroad tracks?

To listen for trains.

They do this in Kentucky, too. Probably a federal requirement.

I have also noted that gasoline tankers and propane trucks come to a complete stop at RR crossings.

It's a federal law for school buses to stop at all RR grade crossings.  It's archaic and stupid, IMHO.  It was fine for a time when grade crossing lacked lights and gates, but in the modern era, it's silly.

The reason the bus opens the door is to trigger the flashing red lights and fold out STOP sign, to draw attention that the bus is stopping.

[rawmustard]

The reason the bus opens the door is to trigger the flashing red lights and fold out STOP sign, to draw attention that the bus is stopping.

But the school bus doesn't need to flash its lights when stopping at a railroad. As NE2 says, it's to be able to listen for trains easier.

[Scott5114]

The reason the bus opens the door is to trigger the flashing red lights and fold out STOP sign, to draw attention that the bus is stopping.

But the school bus doesn't need to flash its lights when stopping at a railroad. As NE2 says, it's to be able to listen for trains easier.

I'm not so sure. A lot of the bus drivers I rode with only opened the door enough to trigger the lights. It may not be necessary to trigger the lights, but it is useful to alert people who may not know that the bus has to stop.

[corco]

It's called "buy what you build".  The Germans do it, the Japanese do it, we should too.  

You forgot the Koreans. And the Italians. And the Russians. And the Chinese.* And every other non-US country with domestic companies engaging in large-scale automotive production

*Sort of. Lots of domestic cars, and every single new non-super premium car sold in China was made in China and the foreign cars (eg Buick) are made by domestic/foreign joint ventures (eg SAIC/General Motors) in China

[Brandon]

The reason the bus opens the door is to trigger the flashing red lights and fold out STOP sign, to draw attention that the bus is stopping.

But the school bus doesn't need to flash its lights when stopping at a railroad. As NE2 says, it's to be able to listen for trains easier.

I'm not so sure. A lot of the bus drivers I rode with only opened the door enough to trigger the lights. It may not be necessary to trigger the lights, but it is useful to alert people who may not know that the bus has to stop.

I've never seen a school bus use the stop sign and red flashers at a RR crossing.  They use the hazard lights around here.

[corco]

In Idaho they definitely open the door for the lights. I can't say for sure for anywhere else.

[hbelkins]

It's been a few years since I have been on a school bus, but back in the day the lights were activated by a control independently of opening the doors.

[agentsteel53]

I would imagine that there is an independent control.  the lights have to start flashing yellow well before the door is opened.

also, wouldn't you want the red lights to stay flashing for a few seconds after the doors close, to give the extra time of protection for children crossing the street?

[NJRoadfan]

I would imagine that there is an independent control.  the lights have to start flashing yellow well before the door is opened.

also, wouldn't you want the red lights to stay flashing for a few seconds after the doors close, to give the extra time of protection for children crossing the street?

The Bluebird buses that used to take me to HS back in 96-97 had a control for the yellow flashers. The red flashers/stop sign/front bar came on automatically when the door was opened, the driver had to toggle an override if he/she wanted to leave the door open without the flashers.

[Scott5114]

I would imagine that there is an independent control.  the lights have to start flashing yellow well before the door is opened.

also, wouldn't you want the red lights to stay flashing for a few seconds after the doors close, to give the extra time of protection for children crossing the street?

The Bluebird buses that used to take me to HS back in 96-97 had a control for the yellow flashers. The red flashers/stop sign/front bar came on automatically when the door was opened, the driver had to toggle an override if he/she wanted to leave the door open without the flashers.

The Carpenters my school had behaved the same way.

[hbelkins]

School buses didn't have yellow flashers back in my day, just the red ones.

[SSOWorld]

Yellow flashers are used in almost every U.S. state and and Canadian Province/Territory. Ontario and Wisconsin still ban them.

[Duke87]

Can't say I've ever seen a school bus open its doors at a RR crossing. Would consider it odd.

I personally despise school buses. They drive slowly, and having to stop for one even if you're going the other way and even if clearly no one is crossing the street just gets ridiculous. Traffic moves quite noticeably better on mornings when school is not in session (of course, moms not driving their kids to school also factors into that, but still...).

[Revive 755]

Yellow flashers are used in almost every U.S. state and and Canadian Province/Territory. Ontario and Wisconsin still ban them.

Lovely.  So how is one always going to be able to stop for school buses properly in Wisconsin, especially since Wisconsin requires stopping for opposing school buses on roads no matter the width unless there is a median?  Seems like an accident and lawsuit waiting to happen.

I've never seen a school bus use the stop sign and red flashers at a RR crossing.  They use the hazard lights around here.

I've seen it a couple times at a railroad crossing in IL, but I think it is just one particular driver.  Funny thing is that particular crossing is in a no train horn area and has gates, yet all the buses still stop and open their doors.

[WillWeaverRVA]

Well, lots of schools have rules against kissing. Wait a minute, school buses. I see now.

But yeah, in Virginia school buses (at least around here anyway) generally use their yellow AND red flashers at railroad crossings, and they open their doors. It is incredibly aggravating when you're stuck behind a bus and you can't pass it because it's stopping at the crossing, and it's using its red flashers and stop sign.

[Duke87]

But yeah, in Virginia school buses (at least around here anyway) generally use their yellow AND red flashers at railroad crossings, and they open their doors. It is incredibly aggravating when you're stuck behind a bus and you can't pass it because it's stopping at the crossing, and it's using its red flashers and stop sign.

Well, if you're on a two lane road, you're not going to pass it anyway. So the lights and sign don't really make a difference. It's still kinda weird, though. You expect someone to get on or off when the lights flash.

I had a bus driver once who claimed that mail trucks were not required to stop for a stopped school bus. Dunno if this is some weird Connecticut law or if he was just making it up.

[Scott5114]

Yellow flashers are used in almost every U.S. state and and Canadian Province/Territory. Ontario and Wisconsin still ban them.

Lovely.  So how is one always going to be able to stop for school buses properly in Wisconsin, especially since Wisconsin requires stopping for opposing school buses on roads no matter the width unless there is a median?  Seems like an accident and lawsuit waiting to happen.

I would assume Wisconsin buses still have the red flashers, but they just don't have the yellow. Here the way it works is the yellow flashers go on as the bus begins to slow down, alerting other drivers that a stop is imminent, and then the red flashers and fold-out sign come online when the door is actually opened for the passengers to get on/off.

[WillWeaverRVA]

Well, this happens on four-lane roads that encounter railroad crossings, as well.

[roadfro]

But the school bus doesn't need to flash its lights when stopping at a railroad. As NE2 says, it's to be able to listen for trains easier.

I'm not so sure. A lot of the bus drivers I rode with only opened the door enough to trigger the lights. It may not be necessary to trigger the lights, but it is useful to alert people who may not know that the bus has to stop.

Yeah, the bus doesn't need to have the flashing reds and stops active when stopping. Just because the bus legally has to stop for the crossing doesn't mean that other drivers have to stop as well. By activating the stop signs/beacons, other drivers are legally required to stop for the bus, even though no children are loading.

Most buses I've seen in Nevada will activate hazard lights in advance of the railroad crossing...that, coupled with the sign typically located on the back of the bus is enough indication of the legal requirement of the bus to stop.

I would imagine that there is an independent control.  the lights have to start flashing yellow well before the door is opened.

also, wouldn't you want the red lights to stay flashing for a few seconds after the doors close, to give the extra time of protection for children crossing the street?

Most school buses I've been on (mainly Blue Birds and Thomas Built Buses) have a separate switch for the warning lights. The yellow warning lights activate upon pressing the switch, but the red lights and stop sign come on automatically once the door is opened with the switch on. If the crossing arm (on a separate switch) was turned on, it also activated automatically when the door opened.

Most drivers on the buses I rode left the front door open until all kids crossed the street, thereby affording the children the extra bit of protection.

I've never seen a school bus use the stop sign and red flashers at a RR crossing.  They use the hazard lights around here.

I've seen [a bus using red flashers while stopping] a couple times at a railroad crossing in IL, but I think it is just one particular driver.  Funny thing is that particular crossing is in a no train horn area and has gates, yet all the buses still stop and open their doors.

I think the federal law, or at least Nevada law, is that all buses must stop at all railroad crossings unless the crossing is specifically marked as "exempt".

I had a bus driver once who claimed that mail trucks were not required to stop for a stopped school bus. Dunno if this is some weird Connecticut law or if he was just making it up.

I've heard similar claims that a post office truck can pull over police and other random things. Such claims generally have no basis in actual law, but arise from people misinterpreting how federal vs. local agencies interact--just because postal vehicles operate as an arm of the federal government does not mean they have policing power and/or can disregard laws of state or local jurisdictions.

[Duke87]

Well, this happens on four-lane roads that encounter railroad crossings, as well.

In which case you're not "stuck" behind the bus since you can pass it at any time it isn't stopped.

How common is it to have a grade crossing on a four lane road in Virginia? There aren't too many around here.