Private Financing for East-West Highway through Maine?

[vdeane]

But I-98 is supposed to be used for NY's northern tier expressway between I-81 and I-87...

My question of why anyone would need an east-west freeway that far north still stands.  They should be building this on the US 2 corridor and meet up with NB 1 and the new border crossing.

[hbelkins]

But I-98 is supposed to be used for NY's northern tier expressway between I-81 and I-87...

That's just a pipe dream anyway, isn't it?

[yakra]

Sounds like some kinda Hi-Power Wide Watertown-Calais Corridor to me...

[bugo]

Never mind the fact that our government was in on it.  They used 9/11 to suspend my kid from school.

That sounds like the kind of crazy thing that a certain nutjob "bathroom bandit" from the northern part of my state would say.

If Tim is a "nutjob" what does that make you?  Your politics are far more radical and insane than Tim's reasonable politics.

[vdeane]

But I-98 is supposed to be used for NY's northern tier expressway between I-81 and I-87...

That's just a pipe dream anyway, isn't it?

It's still seriously being talked about.  Everyone wants it except two groups: those that oppose greater connectivity in the north country because they feel it would destroy the rural character of St. Lawrence county (to which I would like to point to the I-88 corridor), and those who don't want another freeway near the Adirondacks (to which I say, "let's route it along US 11 east of Potsdam instead of NY 11B").

[hbelkins]

It's still seriously being talked about.  Everyone wants it except two groups: those that oppose greater connectivity in the north country because they feel it would destroy the rural character of St. Lawrence county (to which I would like to point to the I-88 corridor), and those who don't want another freeway near the Adirondacks (to which I say, "let's route it along US 11 east of Potsdam instead of NY 11B").

Is there that much of a need for a freeway along that corridor? Is there really that much traffic between Watertown and Plattsburgh?

[Duke87]

Is there that much of a need for a freeway along that corridor? Is there really that much traffic between Watertown and Plattsburgh?

I would say no. But I've only driven that stretch of US 11 once.

[hbelkins]

I drove NY 3 from Plattsburgh to Watertown last fall. It was dusk when I got off I-87 and got dark quickly as I drove through the Adirondacks, but NY 3 was a very easy drive. A couple of bypasses around some of the towns, and it would be a great through route.

[KEVIN_224]

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article/196248/314/Gov-Paul-LePage-signs-east-west-highway-bill

Maine governor Paul LePage has given the go-ahead for a $300,000 study of sorts.

[vdeane]

It's still seriously being talked about.  Everyone wants it except two groups: those that oppose greater connectivity in the north country because they feel it would destroy the rural character of St. Lawrence county (to which I would like to point to the I-88 corridor), and those who don't want another freeway near the Adirondacks (to which I say, "let's route it along US 11 east of Potsdam instead of NY 11B").

Is there that much of a need for a freeway along that corridor? Is there really that much traffic between Watertown and Plattsburgh?

I would say yes, at least west of Potsdam.  I often find myself in a long line of cars driving 50 mph down that road.  There's also the fact that NY won't post 65mph on anything that isn't a freeway.  Most of the traffic is going between Watertown and the Canton-Potsdam area due to the four colleges in the area.

[Alps]

It's still seriously being talked about.  Everyone wants it except two groups: those that oppose greater connectivity in the north country because they feel it would destroy the rural character of St. Lawrence county (to which I would like to point to the I-88 corridor), and those who don't want another freeway near the Adirondacks (to which I say, "let's route it along US 11 east of Potsdam instead of NY 11B").

Is there that much of a need for a freeway along that corridor? Is there really that much traffic between Watertown and Plattsburgh?

I would say yes, at least west of Potsdam.  I often find myself in a long line of cars driving 50 mph down that road.  There's also the fact that NY won't post 65mph on anything that isn't a freeway.  Most of the traffic is going between Watertown and the Canton-Potsdam area due to the four colleges in the area.

Would a four-lane divided highway be sufficient? I know NY doesn't do them very often.

[vdeane]

That would take care of the traffic, provided that Gouverneur, Canton, Potsdam, and Malone are bypassed..  I'd be fine with it if NY could be bothered to post 65mph on non-freeways if conditions allow for it; currently they don't.

NY seems to be making more of these roads more recently.  NY 332 is just like what you propose and it drives like a freeway.  NY 104 east of Webster would as well if the lights were timed more favorably.

[aridawn]

If this were to have been build prior to 9/11, you could have an argument of the use of the road.  As a formor truck driver, I would say, In-Transit traffic (traffic, IE trucks who's Freights origin and destination are within the same country but cross international boundries.) would be little if at all.  The Import/Export laws after 9/11 have changed to the point of almost eliminating In-Transit traffic.  One only needs to look at a once well traveled route from Sault Ste-Marie, ON to Emerson, MB via US-2.  Most In-Transit trucks that travel the route now are usuall empty trailers heading for winipeg or Toronto.  If Maine is serious about constructing such a route, then this barrier will have to be relaxed to attract the traffic levels to warrent the construction.  At most they can hope for is holiday travelers heading to "The Rock" (Newfoundland) or the Maritimes.

[cpzilliacus]

If this were to have been build prior to 9/11, you could have an argument of the use of the road.  As a formor truck driver, I would say, In-Transit traffic (traffic, IE trucks who's Freights origin and destination are within the same country but cross international boundries.) would be little if at all.  The Import/Export laws after 9/11 have changed to the point of almost eliminating In-Transit traffic.  One only needs to look at a once well traveled route from Sault Ste-Marie, ON to Emerson, MB via US-2.  Most In-Transit trucks that travel the route now are usuall empty trailers heading for winipeg or Toronto.  If Maine is serious about constructing such a route, then this barrier will have to be relaxed to attract the traffic levels to warrent the construction.  At most they can hope for is holiday travelers heading to "The Rock" (Newfoundland) or the Maritimes.

In my opinion, much of the "security" imposed around international borders entering the  United States is little more than security theater.

Canada (especially) as a nation has no more tolerance for terrorism and terrorists than the United States does (contrary to what an assortment of U.S. politicians and "commentators" say).

Both  nations (thanks to the U.S., using the attacks of 2001-09-11 as an excuse) waste enormous amounts of money on security theater at land border crossings and at airports.  A tolled freeway across Maine from Québec to New Brunswick makes plenty of sense - it would save time and fuel for Canadian truckers (which translates into money) - and in my opinion, there is no reason that Canadian citizens (or U.S. citizens) should need to show a passport when crossing this border.

[vdeane]

I think they're "securing" the northern border mainly to distract from the fact that it's impossible to have a 100% secure southern border.

[cpzilliacus]

I think they're "securing" the northern border mainly to distract from the fact that it's impossible to have a 100% secure southern border.

That makes (unfortunately) a lot of sense. 

In my perfect world, the United States government would not be expending so much in the way of money and people to secure the southern border either, since I am in favor of legalizing (and taxing) most of the drugs that get smuggled over that border today.

Efforts to secure the U.S. border against invasion from Canada might have made some sense in 1812, but they make no sense now.

[aridawn]

I think they're "securing" the northern border mainly to distract from the fact that it's impossible to have a 100% secure southern border.

That makes (unfortunately) a lot of sense. 

In my perfect world, the United States government would not be expending so much in the way of money and people to secure the southern border either, since I am in favor of legalizing (and taxing) most of the drugs that get smuggled over that border today.

Efforts to secure the U.S. border against invasion from Canada might have made some sense in 1812, but they make no sense now.

Agreed.  This is still a problem that would need to be solved inorder to attract the Trucking companies to utlize the road.  As it is, in order to go In-Transit, requires a lenthey and costly delay in order to meet the requirments, in order to complete the trip at both border crossings.  Most Canadian trucking companies would not be able to justify the added expense in order to shave off a few miles in some cases. IE, The MOM (Manitoba, Ontario, Minnisoda) Way.  As it stands now, I would say Maine is wasting tax payer dollars on a road most would not use.  That being said empty or "deadheading" trucks would use the road as this has little or no delay at any border.

[vdeane]

I'm wondering how this road is being justified myself.  It doesn't look like a corridor that would ever see traffic.  I could see something on the US 2 corridor though, especially since US 2 winds up and down the river a lot, so a straighter road on its own would lower travel times.

[deathtopumpkins]

Maine is wasting tax payer dollars on a road most would not use.

Private Financing for East-West Highway through Maine

The construction, operation and maintenance of the highway would be done privately.

[...]

If the project moves forward, the developer would be responsible for paying the state back the $300,000 for the study.

Now how exactly is this a waste of taxpayer money?

[texaskdog]

If the interstate system wasn't built as new highways and instead just US hwys expanded as needed, There probably wouldn't be any freeways touching the border...except for in the Lake Erie area

[aridawn]

Maine is wasting tax payer dollars on a road most would not use.

Private Financing for East-West Highway through Maine

The construction, operation and maintenance of the highway would be done privately.

[...]

If the project moves forward, the developer would be responsible for paying the state back the $300,000 for the study.

Now how exactly is this a waste of taxpayer money?

As I said earlier, take a look at a once heavly travelled In-Transit route Sault Ste-Marie, ON to Emerson, MB or N Portal, SK.  I drove truck prior to and after 9/11.  No trucking company in canada is preforming In-Transit trips.  You can put all the tolls and bonds and grands in place you want, the traffic isn't there.  Take another example going the other way, Detriot to Buffalo, American companies are not longer doing In-Transit trips.  As for wasting money, before tolls can be generated the state still have to contract an EIS (EA in Canada) or preform the work themselvs, expropriate land, servays, public meetings and planning.

[deathtopumpkins]

Maine is wasting tax payer dollars on a road most would not use.

Private Financing for East-West Highway through Maine

The construction, operation and maintenance of the highway would be done privately.

[...]

If the project moves forward, the developer would be responsible for paying the state back the $300,000 for the study.

Now how exactly is this a waste of taxpayer money?

As I said earlier, take a look at a once heavly travelled In-Transit route Sault Ste-Marie, ON to Emerson, MB or N Portal, SK.  I drove truck prior to and after 9/11.  No trucking company in canada is preforming In-Transit trips.  You can put all the tolls and bonds and grands in place you want, the traffic isn't there.  Take another example going the other way, Detriot to Buffalo, American companies are not longer doing In-Transit trips.  As for wasting money, before tolls can be generated the state still have to contract an EIS (EA in Canada) or preform the work themselvs, expropriate land, servays, public meetings and planning.

Once again, as it says in my quote, "the construction, operation, and maintenance of the highway would be done privately." This means the private company building it would be paying to build it. That's how private road construction works. They secure financing, be it through bonds or whatever, and then pay those off using the toll revenue over subsequent years.
Now I haven't read the developer's proposal, just news articles, but I would assume that since they are proposing it the state wouldn't be liable for reimbursing them if toll revenue is lower than expected. So even if truck traffic is low, I fail to see how the taxpayers would be footing the bill for anything significant.

[vdeane]

Building it, but what about the pre-build steps?  And what happens when the company goes under because nobody told them what a stupid routing for a freeway this is beforehand?

[deathtopumpkins]

Presumably they would do the planning and permitting and everything themselves. Isn't that how it normally works for private roads?

As for if the company goes under, presumably whatever contract they sign with the state if this proposal goes ahead would not leave the state liable.

[kphoger]

Building it, but what about the pre-build steps?  And what happens when the company goes under because nobody told them what a stupid routing for a freeway this is beforehand?

This happened with the Camino Colombia toll road in southeast Texas, except that it wasn't total stupidity but rather government agencies backing out of their promises (basically, that it would be required for all international trucks to use it...then they built a whole new truck-only bridge downriver).  When the CCTR went bankrupt, the road was auctioned off on the courthouse steps, and the state of Texas bought it on the cheap.  So they didn't have to build the road, yet they still get to collect tolls on it.  Sounds like a win-win for Texas, especially since it's now all-electronic and they don't even have to pay a toll collector.