Cutting corners in maintenance

[deathtopumpkins]

I have never seen a service plaza with only one massive restaurant. All the toll road service plazas I've ever stopped at have had a selection of restaurants in them (this holds true along the MassPike, the Maine Turnpike, the New Jersey Turnpike, the JFK Hwy plazas) plus often times convenience stores too. The only exception is smaller ones crammed into roads in NYC/CT.

I've never seen one with more than two service brands and two restaurants.

Here's a picture of the sign for the first northbound service plaza on the NJTP:
https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/new_jersey999/nj_tpk_nb_exit_002_10.jpg
There's a Burger King, a Starbucks, a Nathan's, a TCBY, and a convenience store.

Here's a picture of the sign for a northbound service plaza on the Maine Turnpike:
https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_025_05.jpg
There's a Burger King, and two other restaurants I can't make out (one of which looks like a Cinnabun).

Here's a picture of the sign for a service plaza on the Massachusetts Turnpike:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5081/5378318347_101f9283cc_z.jpg
There's a McDonald's, a Papa Gino's, a d'Angelo, a Ben & Jerry's, an Auntie Anne's, and two other ones I'm not sure what are.

If you've never seen a service plaza with more than two restaurants, you clearly haven't driven on a toll road in a very long time.

Which is why I said that businesses could probably just move into the service plaza. If they can't open another location, just move an existing one. If the service plaza would draw as much traffic as "30 off-Interstate locations" I'm sure a franchise owner would happily relocate to it!

That's absurd.  A service plaza won't have 30 businesses.  Nor will the half dozen major service brands and the dozen or so restaurant brands, move to the service plaza.

I never said a service plaza would have 30 businesses. I said that if they got the traffic of 30 businesses, which you yourself said they would get, restaurant owners would happily relocate into one. And I'm sure the ones that are unable to relocate might have their business take a bit of a hit, but they won't disappear completely because I'm sure they'd survive off of the people with GPSes and smartphones who don't want to eat at the restaurant in the service plaza and can see that there is some place they DO want to eat at right off the interstate.

[Beltway]

A service plaza won't have 30 businesses.  Nor will the half dozen major service brands and the dozen or so restaurant brands, move to the service plaza.

I never said a service plaza would have 30 businesses. I said that if they got the traffic of 30 businesses, which you yourself said they would get, restaurant owners would happily relocate into one. And I'm sure the ones that are unable to relocate might have their business take a bit of a hit, but they won't disappear completely because I'm sure they'd survive off of the people with GPSes and smartphones who don't want to eat at the restaurant in the service plaza and can see that there is some place they DO want to eat at right off the interstate.

At least 6 national small business associations have posted articles about the issue, and they claim the opposite -- that they will receive very little opportunities at the Interstate plazas, and that the interchange small businesses will take a massive hit.

I'm not an expert on the issue, but I will accept the analysis of groups professional businesspersons over the ad hoc assertions of an Internet poster.

[deathtopumpkins]

I'm not an expert on the issue, but I will accept the analysis of groups professional businesspersons over the ad hoc assertions of an Internet poster.

Just keep in mind that you are also just some Internet poster. I don't seem to recall you being a professional businessperson either.



Also, you should note that I have said several times that states should, if commercializing rest areas, ensure that the process of selecting businesses should be a fair and open process. These associations you reference probably assume the worst, as lobbyists tend to do about ideas they oppose.

[Beltway]

I'm not an expert on the issue, but I will accept the analysis of groups professional businesspersons over the ad hoc assertions of an Internet poster.

Just keep in mind that you are also just some Internet poster. I don't seem to recall you being a professional businessperson either.

I've posted links (and there are more) to what professional businesspersons and associations are saying about the issue.

All you've done is post from your gut.

[vdeane]

As far as I'm concerned, lobbyists are liars who are up to no good, so using them actually hurts your case in my eyes.

[Beltway]

As far as I'm concerned, lobbyists are liars who are up to no good, so using them actually hurts your case in my eyes.

And you are nothing more than an Internet poster that bellows and attacks the messenger when you have no cogent rebuttal.

BTW, groups like the National Association of Convenience Stores are not "lobbyists".

[deathtopumpkins]

As far as I'm concerned, lobbyists are liars who are up to no good, so using them actually hurts your case in my eyes.

BTW, groups like the National Association of Convenience Stores are not "lobbyists".

...Yes they are.

NACS is the industry's voice in the federal government – to the executive, legislative and judicial branches. Its issues are as varied as the industry it represents, from motor fuels to credit card fees to labor to taxes.

I'm not an expert on the issue, but I will accept the analysis of groups professional businesspersons over the ad hoc assertions of an Internet poster.

Just keep in mind that you are also just some Internet poster. I don't seem to recall you being a professional businessperson either.

I've posted links (and there are more) to what professional businesspersons and associations are saying about the issue.

All you've done is post from your gut.

Which I don't really see a problem with. We're having a theoretical discussion here, not writing a research paper. Also, none of your linked sources have really stood up to the scrutiny I've seen other members here subject them to before I entered the discussion, and many of them are from undeniably biased sources, like lobbying organizations.

[hbelkins]

Without trying to quote any of the previous posts, there is a huge difference between service plazas on toll roads and service plazas on free interstates, simply because of the "captive audience" nature of toll roads.

I would guess that in general, it costs less to drive straight through from Point A to Point C on one of the major toll roads than it does to drive from Point A to Point B, exit at Point B, then re-enter the toll road and drive to Point C. If the cost to drive from Point A to Point C is $10 and the cost to drive to Point B is $5, then $5 more to re-enter and drive to Point C, then it's a wash. But if the Point A to Point C trip is only $7.50, it costs you money to exit and thus you'd be more likely to use a service plaza.

But if the road is free and there is no cost differential, then there is no benefit gained by staying on the road and using a service plaza. If the service plaza has McDonald's and you prefer Wendy's, and there's a Wendy's at the first exit past the service, then you'll eat at Wendy's. But if an exit to Wendy's is going to cost you an additional $2.50 on your trip, you might settle for McDonald's.

[agentsteel53]

But if the road is free and there is no cost differential, then there is no benefit gained by staying on the road and using a service plaza. If the service plaza has McDonald's and you prefer Wendy's, and there's a Wendy's at the first exit past the service, then you'll eat at Wendy's. But if an exit to Wendy's is going to cost you an additional $2.50 on your trip, you might settle for McDonald's.

it might go even further than what you are saying.

psychologically, a driver might feel an added component of "I've gotta get off and get on and fumble with toll tickets and change" which, even when the dollar cost difference is less than or equal to 0, might be viewed as an unfavorable opportunity cost difference.

[Beltway]

I've posted links (and there are more) to what professional businesspersons and associations are saying about the issue.

All you've done is post from your gut.

Which I don't really see a problem with. We're having a theoretical discussion here, not writing a research paper. Also, none of your linked sources have really stood up to the scrutiny I've seen other members here subject them to before I entered the discussion, and many of them are from undeniably biased sources, like lobbying organizations.

They are not "lobbying organizations".  You're handwaving.

Neither have any of you posted links from business organizations that take the opposite position.  Hint: other than possibly a few large corporations, none of them appear to take the opposite position.

[deathtopumpkins]

They most certainly are lobbying organizations. You read my quote, right?

Without trying to quote any of the previous posts, there is a huge difference between service plazas on toll roads and service plazas on free interstates, simply because of the "captive audience" nature of toll roads.

...

But if the road is free and there is no cost differential, then there is no benefit gained by staying on the road and using a service plaza. If the service plaza has McDonald's and you prefer Wendy's, and there's a Wendy's at the first exit past the service, then you'll eat at Wendy's. But if an exit to Wendy's is going to cost you an additional $2.50 on your trip, you might settle for McDonald's.

Exactly, which is why I'm saying commercializing rest areas won't drive surrounding off-Interstate businesses completely out of business because people who don't want what's at the service plaza will exit instead.

[Beltway]

They most certainly are lobbying organizations. You read my quote, right?

You cited -one- link.  -One- does not equal -many-.

And so what if an organization lobbies?  They are speaking for a group of like entities.  They are entitled to an opinion.  They are entitled to assess the impact of a proposal.  Calling them "liars" for doing that is pure demagoguery.

Why are no small business organizations speaking in favor of commercializing rest areas?  It's because none of them see any benefit in it.

[deathtopumpkins]

They most certainly are lobbying organizations. You read my quote, right?

You cited -one- link.  -One- does not equal -many-.

And so what if an organization lobbies?  They are speaking for a group of like entities.  They are entitled to an opinion.

Why are no small business organizations speaking in favor of commercializing rest areas?  It's because none of them see any benefit in it.

I never said many. And I never said that I said many. And I provided that one link because it concerned the example you used.

And yes, they are entitled to an opinion, just like you and me. I just said, like past contributors to this discussion, that their opinion is probably going to be biased as a lobbying organization. Just like if I were a small business owner my opinion would probably biased (and for the record, my family does own a convenience store).

[intelati49]

Yo, Mods. Can you split the argument about Interstate plazas into a separate topic? I'm interested in maintenance, but not really about the plazas. Thanks

[Beltway]

But if the road is free and there is no cost differential, then there is no benefit gained by staying on the road and using a service plaza. If the service plaza has McDonald's and you prefer Wendy's, and there's a Wendy's at the first exit past the service, then you'll eat at Wendy's. But if an exit to Wendy's is going to cost you an additional $2.50 on your trip, you might settle for McDonald's.

The MD I-95 experience seems to indicate the opposite.  There is no cost to leave and re-enter the interchanges (ramp tolls were removed over 20 years ago), the interchanges are frequent, and they still have far fewer interchange businesses than VA I-95.  Many more small businesses could have built at many of the rural interchanges (MD land use policies would have allowed it), if they thought it would be profitable.  The MD I-95 JFK Highway service plazas have impacted the whole MD I-95 109-mile-long corridor.  That is not "bad" for MD, it's just the procedure that they have had for 50 years.  But it is a harbinger of what would happen on VA I-95 and other Interstate highways, if they were to allow commercialized rest areas.

[Beltway]

They most certainly are lobbying organizations. You read my quote, right?

You cited -one- link.  -One- does not equal -many-.

And so what if an organization lobbies?  They are speaking for a group of like entities.  They are entitled to an opinion.

Why are no small business organizations speaking in favor of commercializing rest areas?  It's because none of them see any benefit in it.

I never said many. And I never said that I said many. And I provided that one link because it concerned the example you used.

And yes, they are entitled to an opinion, just like you and me. I just said, like past contributors to this discussion, that their opinion is probably going to be biased as a lobbying organization. Just like if I were a small business owner my opinion would probably biased (and for the record, my family does own a convenience store).

Why are no small business organizations speaking in favor of commercializing rest areas?

If they thought it would be profitable for their members, they would.

[deathtopumpkins]

I don't know and I don't really care. I'm not writing a research paper on the matter, I'm just hypothesizing and speculating on a forum. Maybe they haven't even looked into it because they don't think it would ever happen.

[Scott5114]

Just because certain people can make more money off of something being a certain way doesn't mean that it's unquestionably the best course of action.

Small businesses could make more money if we didn't have a minimum wage or child labor laws, but...

[Beltway]

I don't know and I don't really care. I'm not writing a research paper on the matter, I'm just hypothesizing and speculating on a forum. Maybe they haven't even looked into it because they don't think it would ever happen.

It's quite obvious that they have "looked into it".
Post Merge: October 18, 2012, 08:32:33 PM

Just because certain people can make more money off of something being a certain way doesn't mean that it's unquestionably the best course of action.

They are concerned about possibly 1/3 to 1/2 of them being put out of business.  You need to get the business community on board if you want the federal law changed on this matter.

[cpzilliacus]

But if the road is free and there is no cost differential, then there is no benefit gained by staying on the road and using a service plaza. If the service plaza has McDonald's and you prefer Wendy's, and there's a Wendy's at the first exit past the service, then you'll eat at Wendy's. But if an exit to Wendy's is going to cost you an additional $2.50 on your trip, you might settle for McDonald's.

The MD I-95 experience seems to indicate the opposite.  There is no cost to leave and re-enter the interchanges (ramp tolls were removed over 20 years ago), the interchanges are frequent, and they still have far fewer interchange businesses than VA I-95.  Many more small businesses could have built at many of the rural interchanges (MD land use policies would have allowed it), if they thought it would be profitable.

What do you know about land use policy in Maryland, which is normally implemented by county governments?

The MD I-95 JFK Highway service plazas have impacted the whole MD I-95 109-mile-long corridor.

Please tell me how you determined that. 

Do you know the trip length distribution of all I-95 travel to, through and in Maryland? 

Do you know the origins and destinations?  Presumably you do, making statements like the above.

That is not "bad" for MD, it's just the procedure that they have had for 50 years.  But it is a harbinger of what would happen on VA I-95 and other Interstate highways, if they were to allow commercialized rest areas.

It is only the 42-or-so northernmost miles of I-95 in Maryland that would have had impact by the two service plazas (and presumably the one in Delaware, too).   Yet  that is precisely where several of the large truck stop chains have decided to locate their businesses. Why might that be?

[Beltway]

The MD I-95 JFK Highway service plazas have impacted the whole MD I-95 109-mile-long corridor.

Please tell me how you determined that. 

Do you know the trip length distribution of all I-95 travel to, through and in Maryland? 

Do you know the origins and destinations?  Presumably you do, making statements like the above.

It is a short enough segment that motorists thinking of stopping south of Baltimore, could skip that in favor of stopping on the JFK.

Maryland toll-free Interstate highways 68, 70, 81, and 83, seem to have ample service businesses at interchanges.

That is not "bad" for MD, it's just the procedure that they have had for 50 years.  But it is a harbinger of what would happen on VA I-95 and other Interstate highways, if they were to allow commercialized rest areas.

It is only the 42-or-so northernmost miles of I-95 in Maryland that would have had impact by the two service plazas (and presumably the one in Delaware, too).   Yet  that is precisely where several of the large truck stop chains have decided to locate their businesses. Why might that be?

Those two service plazas don't come anywhere close to providing all the truck services that a large truck stop can provide -- things such as major repairs, tires, large amounts of overnight and longer-term parking with IdleAir (*), motels in some cases, etc.

(*) "IdleAir provides America's hard-working long-haul truck drivers an alternative to idling their engines during rest periods. IdleAir service allows truck drivers to turn off their diesel engines and APU's and still enjoy heating, cooling, standard electric inside and outside the cab, Satellite TV, internet, and many of the comforts of home – all while saving money and getting better sleep without the noise, vibration, and exhaust fumes from idling."

[NE2]

Daddy, what's a small business?

[Scott5114]

Daddy, what's a small business?

The Small Business Administration generally considers a small business one with less than 500 employees if in manufacturing, and in any other industry, one with receipts of less than $7 million per year. But there are more specific guidelines for individual industries. Some people use other definitions, though. And it is tough to classify a franchise; is a McDonalds franchisee still a "small business" if they have only ten employees and do $1 million in sales per year, even though they are a part of the multi-billion dollar McDonalds brand?

[Beltway]

Daddy, what's a small business?

The Small Business Administration generally considers a small business one with less than 500 employees if in manufacturing, and in any other industry, one with receipts of less than $7 million per year. But there are more specific guidelines for individual industries. Some people use other definitions, though. And it is tough to classify a franchise; is a McDonalds franchisee still a "small business" if they have only ten employees and do $1 million in sales per year, even though they are a part of the multi-billion dollar McDonalds brand?

Selling a major brand doesn't automatically make someone part of that company.

Many of the chains are operated on a franchise basis, in that the stores operate according to chain standards, while the individual stores are owned and managed by the proprietor of that store. So many of those chain stores are in effect individually small businesses.

[Scott5114]

Absolutely–on paper, at least, it is a small business. But when you buy into a brand like McDonalds you also buy into the marketing mechanism of that brand. If I run Scott's Diner, I have no brand name recognition or loyalty at time of startup. As a small business I probably won't be able to afford much in the way of marketing at first. My limited budget will probably restrict me to ads in local papers. Maybe eventually I can move up to local TV. But a franchise like McDonalds has advertisements in the media markets of nearly every city in the United States. That gives you a huge leg up over every other small business.