Red left turn signals -- red ball or red arrow?

[Ace10]

You beat me, NE2!

Florida Department of Transportation: Frequently Asked Questions - Traffic Signals

A red RIGHT arrow means that you must come to a complete stop at the marked stop line or before moving into the crosswalk or intersection. After stopping, you may turn RIGHT on the red arrow at most intersections if the way is clear. Some intersections display a "NO TURN ON RED" sign, which you must obey.

A red LEFT turn arrow means that you must come to a complete stop at the marked stop line or before moving into the crosswalk or intersection, and shall remain stopped until a signal indication to proceed is shown. After stopping, the motorist facing a red LEFT turn arrow or red circular signal indication is permitted to enter the intersection to turn left from a one-way street onto a one-way street with traffic moving to the left except when a "NO TURN ON RED" sign is displayed.

From this, it seems that in Florida there is no difference between a red arrow and a red ball. If it is usually legal to turn on a red ball, then it is just as legal to make that movement on a red arrow. However, I remember reading that in most states, this is not the case.

A rebuilt intersection on Orange CR 535 and Ficquette Rd/Summerport Village Pkwy features two dedicated right turn lanes and two dedicated right turn signals. There is a sign that states something along the lines of "Right turn on red arrow after stop". Since this is most likely a county installation, the state (or even the rest of the county) may not post the sign at all intersections with red arrows.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=28.478521,-81.58296&spn=0.000005,0.002889&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=28.478528,-81.582828&panoid=NEpOh7Y6JM2xAjOJVQtbMg&cbp=12,278.99,,0,-3.34

[kphoger]

There seems to be a question in Florida about right turn arrows.  A friend of mine who repairs signals in Orange County, FL says it means the same as no turn on red.  Then a know it all man who hangs out reliougusly in a breastaurant (new name for Hooters types of restaurants) told me the Orlando Sentinal had an article stating that it is not for stating no turns on red and applies like a red ball would.  A sign is needed.

Furthermore, some intersections near railroads will have a light up no right turn when a train comes to prevent back ups on the parallel street.  However, some people ignore it and will wait for the train and hold up through traffic.  I think there is a question about this one.  Orange Avenue at Landstreet Road in Taft has this set up as the CSX mainline runs alongside of Orange Avenue.  Vehicles are not to go SB to WB when a train comes across Landstreet,

To confirm what was just posted:

I see no distinction in the Florida Statute between a red ball and a red arrow.  Here is the statute regarding stoplights, and here is the whole chapter.

[MASTERNC]

I drove into Virginia this past weekend.  It seems Fairfax County has started to replace red balls with red arrows but I'd say only 1 of every 3 lights that had that type of left turn signal had the arrow instead of the ball.

[kphoger]

I found an oddball a couple of days ago in Chillicothe, MO:  two left-turn stoplights mounted on a single pole, both featuring a solid red ball.  I've never seen two left-turn lights right next to each other like that.

The GMSV is a little fuzzy, but you can make it out.

[Ian]

I found an oddball a couple of days ago in Chillicothe, MO:  two left-turn stoplights mounted on a single pole, both featuring a solid red ball.  I've never seen two left-turn lights right next to each other like that.

The GMSV is a little fuzzy, but you can make it out.

Here's a similar set up along US 15 (Leesburg Bypass) in Leesburg, VA.

[kphoger]

So they just installed a red right-turn arrow on southbound Woodlawn at the Kellogg frontage road here in Wichita.  I just saw it last night, while we were on our way home from the grocery store.

Me - A red right-turn arrow.
Wife - That's new; they must have just put that in.
Me - They're the subject of a discussion online.
Wife - Huh?  Why?
Me - What does it naturally mean?  You can turn after stopping, or you can't turn at all?
Wife - You can't turn at all.
Me - Actually, it means you can turn after stopping.
Wife - What?  That's stupid.

Hmmmm..... She's just that one point away from being perfect for me. 

In continuation of my off-topic post (sorry), I noticed yesterday that construction at the intersection is now complete, and the offending red right-turn arrow has been replaced with a solid red ball.  Maybe so many people refused to turn right on red (thinking it was prohibited) that the city decided the added turn lane wasn't helping traffic after all.

[froggie]

Late in replying, but I've been on deployment.

Virginia has started using red arrows officially in 2010 after using the red ball for many years. I agree it's more clear for its function and does not necessitate the use of additional signs to denote its function.

Originally, all protected left signals in Virginia had the red ball for their red phase without "Left turn signal" or other auxillary signs. By the '90s, it depended on where in Virginia you were as different VDOT districts apparantly liked to, and still like to, do different things. The Northern Virginia, Fredericksburg, Culpeper, and Bristol districts have used the auxillary "Left turn signal" signal sign next to most protected left signals, all having the red ball. The Lynchburg district posts, instead, "Left turn on green arrow only" auxillary signs. All other districts post no auxillary sign, though occasionally lane use control signs serve this function (esp. in the Richmond suburbs). As of 2010, new protected left signals in Northern Virginia as well as the Fredericksburg and Culpeper districts, have red arrows. There has also been a vast effort to replace many existing signals with red arrows as well (along with the taking down of auxillary "Left turn signal" signs). I have not seen this widespread in other parts of the state.

Originally, VDOT signal policy was one signalhead per lane.  The perception was that this made auxiliary signage for signals unnecessary, hence those VDOT districts who did not put up signage on the signal mast.  This no longer being the case, it's become necessary to revise signal design to be more in line with the MUTCD.

Red left arrows have slowly been filtering their way around the state, although several independent cities (namely Alexandria and the Hampton Roads cities) have been using them for over a decade.  Saw my first VDOT-installed one in Spotsylvania County in 2010.  These days, besides the districts you mentioned, I've also seen them in the Staunton and Hampton Roads districts (including VDOT-maintained areas).

[dfnva]

Late in replying, but I've been on deployment.


Originally, VDOT signal policy was one signalhead per lane.  The perception was that this made auxiliary signage for signals unnecessary, hence those VDOT districts who did not put up signage on the signal mast.  This no longer being the case, it's become necessary to revise signal design to be more in line with the MUTCD.

Red left arrows have slowly been filtering their way around the state, although several independent cities (namely Alexandria and the Hampton Roads cities) have been using them for over a decade.  Saw my first VDOT-installed one in Spotsylvania County in 2010.  These days, besides the districts you mentioned, I've also seen them in the Staunton and Hampton Roads districts (including VDOT-maintained areas).

That makes sense. Interestingly, the Northern Virginia district has not followed the VDOT policy of one signalhead per lane for the last ~20+ years (how long ago did this stop being VDOT policy?), usually putting signals between lanes, use of "Left Turn Signal" auxillary signs, and using doghouse signals for protected right turns, unlike the rest of the state.

I've also noticed another interesting VDOT practice recently. Protected left signals are often being placed on the near side of the intersection on the mast arm with the signals for the opposite direction, separate from the signals for the through lanes. I've noticed this extensively in Northern Virginia (for example, US-29 at SR-650/Gallows Rd; numerous streets crossing the Beltway such as VA-7, SR-650, SR-620 erected with the HOT lanes project) and also at the JCT of VA-253/Port Republic Rd and SR-726/Stone Spring Rd just outside of Harrisonburg in Rockingham County (Staunton District).

Here's an example of what I'm talking about... these are VDOT pictures from the VA-253/SR-726 JCT:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vadot/6165904175/in/set-72157627589112139/
(also noteworthy for the only time I've ever seen 'Left Turn Signal' signs used in the Staunton District)

Is this a new MUTCD or VDOT policy? I find it an odd way to place left turn signals, especially since there are no signals on the other side while you're turning. Sounds like a safety hazard... I wouldn't mind a redundant signal to confirm I'm in the clear.

-Dan

[roadfro]

Late in replying, but I've been on deployment.


Originally, VDOT signal policy was one signalhead per lane.  The perception was that this made auxiliary signage for signals unnecessary, hence those VDOT districts who did not put up signage on the signal mast.  This no longer being the case, it's become necessary to revise signal design to be more in line with the MUTCD.

Red left arrows have slowly been filtering their way around the state, although several independent cities (namely Alexandria and the Hampton Roads cities) have been using them for over a decade.  Saw my first VDOT-installed one in Spotsylvania County in 2010.  These days, besides the districts you mentioned, I've also seen them in the Staunton and Hampton Roads districts (including VDOT-maintained areas).

I've also noticed another interesting VDOT practice recently. Protected left signals are often being placed on the near side of the intersection on the mast arm with the signals for the opposite direction, separate from the signals for the through lanes. I've noticed this extensively in Northern Virginia (for example, US-29 at SR-650/Gallows Rd; numerous streets crossing the Beltway such as VA-7, SR-650, SR-620 erected with the HOT lanes project) and also at the JCT of VA-253/Port Republic Rd and SR-726/Stone Spring Rd just outside of Harrisonburg in Rockingham County (Staunton District).
. . .
Is this a new MUTCD or VDOT policy? I find it an odd way to place left turn signals, especially since there are no signals on the other side while you're turning. Sounds like a safety hazard... I wouldn't mind a redundant signal to confirm I'm in the clear.

The MUTCD recommends signal heads be placed within a defined cone of vision (both horizontally and vertically) from the stop line. These rear-mounted signal heads wouldn't necessarily qualify as being within that cone of vision for the primary signal head(s), depending on the positioning of the heads in relation to the stop line. So it's not a MUTCD thing, but I couldn't speak to VDOT policy.

Nevada (particularly in Las Vegas area) sometimes uses a near side overhead left signal similar to this--but only at wide intersections as an additional supplemental signal head where there are already the normal main signals on the mast arm and a far side pole mount. You can see this at several intersections on the Las Vegas Strip, but is also used elsewhere.

[dfnva]

Nevada (particularly in Las Vegas area) sometimes uses a near side overhead left signal similar to this--but only at wide intersections as an additional supplemental signal head where there are already the normal main signals on the mast arm and a far side pole mount. You can see this at several intersections on the Las Vegas Strip, but is also used elsewhere.

That makes sense. In the past, I've only seen near-side signals (Whether mounted on a pedistal or overhead) as redundant signals. Maryland does that fairly extensively, and while it's not standard practice in Virginia, I've seen it some, esp. at major intersections in the Richmond suburbs.

[Daniel]

Here in Michigan we have a special setup for our turning lights with green and yellow arrows, a red ball, and a separate light box (rectangle more so) mounted right on top of the signal that simply reads "LEFT" or "RIGHT" depending on the direction. It's only on completely restricted and "flashing red" permissive turning lights. It's not on doghouses (which aren't too common here anyway) or flashing yellow arrow turns which just have the out of state standard red arrow. I quite like the light box because it makes the lights and lanes easily distinguishable, especially at night, and no one from out of state seems to have any problems with it. However, I've never seen this setup anywhere outside Michigan, and I've driven through a good portion of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic, and South. It's all red arrows or red balls with a "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign next to it with nothing on top of the light. I wonder if there is anywhere outside of Michigan that uses this and if not, why is Michigan so unique to do this?

[KEK Inc.]

By using that logic, then would it be OK to make a left turn on a red arrow after making a stop?  If not, then red arrows have different meanings depending on which way they point.  Very confusing IMO.

Here's my thinking and a lot of it comes from the fact that I'm a native Californian...
If there is a red arrow (doesn't matter which direction it's pointing - up, left or right) then I'm not allowed to go in that direction until I see a green arrow. Period.

If the signal is a red ball, then going straight or left is not allowed until I get a green ball or arrow or both.  Turning right after stopping is OK unless there are signs prohibiting a RTOR (with the understanding that one-way streets are a different animal).

As for the flashing red arrow (something I haven't seen in the S.F. Bay Area for quite a while) Agentsteel53 brought up, I would treat any flashing red signal (ball or arrow) as a stop sign.

Apparently in Oregon, it's OK to turn right on a red arrow because I got honked at while waiting for a green right arrow.  I knew something was wrong when drivers in the lane next to me were making turns on the red signal.   Couple that with the fact that U-turns are not allowed unless signed and you're not allowed to pump your own gas makes driving in Oregon an "adventure".

Legally in Washington, you're allowed to turn against a red if you don't have to cut through an oncoming lane (even from the 2nd or 3rd lane from the right if it's a right-turn lane unless there's a sign saying you can't turn red; some intersections actually only allow you to turn against the red on one lane).  So if you're on a one-way road, you can legally turn left against a red on a one-way road going left.  The only exception is if there's a big white sign that says "No Right Turn on Red Arrow".   A little bit of common sense can get traffic rolling. 

Oregon is a little iffy on u-turns.  I do it anyways.  Again, I just use my own judgment on the turning radius of the vehicle I'm driving, traffic conditions and the orthogonal signals.  I never looked up the law, and I don't do U-Turns if the po-po is around in O ree gone. Never do a U-Turn if the signal has a protected right turn.  Usually the mast should have a no u-turn sign for those.

[roadfro]

Here in Michigan we have a special setup for our turning lights with green and yellow arrows, a red ball, and a separate light box (rectangle more so) mounted right on top of the signal that simply reads "LEFT" or "RIGHT" depending on the direction. It's only on completely restricted and "flashing red" permissive turning lights. It's not on doghouses (which aren't too common here anyway) or flashing yellow arrow turns which just have the out of state standard red arrow. I quite like the light box because it makes the lights and lanes easily distinguishable, especially at night, and no one from out of state seems to have any problems with it. However, I've never seen this setup anywhere outside Michigan, and I've driven through a good portion of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic, and South. It's all red arrows or red balls with a "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign next to it with nothing on top of the light. I wonder if there is anywhere outside of Michigan that uses this and if not, why is Michigan so unique to do this?

I've never quite understood this setup. I mean, it is more succinct than having the static sign for signals that use a circular red and green/yellow arrows. But why not just use the red arrows now? Does Michigan still install this setup, or have they started adopting red arrows yet?

[Daniel]

Here in Michigan we have a special setup for our turning lights with green and yellow arrows, a red ball, and a separate light box (rectangle more so) mounted right on top of the signal that simply reads "LEFT" or "RIGHT" depending on the direction. It's only on completely restricted and "flashing red" permissive turning lights. It's not on doghouses (which aren't too common here anyway) or flashing yellow arrow turns which just have the out of state standard red arrow. I quite like the light box because it makes the lights and lanes easily distinguishable, especially at night, and no one from out of state seems to have any problems with it. However, I've never seen this setup anywhere outside Michigan, and I've driven through a good portion of the Midwest, Mid Atlantic, and South. It's all red arrows or red balls with a "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign next to it with nothing on top of the light. I wonder if there is anywhere outside of Michigan that uses this and if not, why is Michigan so unique to do this?

I've never quite understood this setup. I mean, it is more succinct than having the static sign for signals that use a circular red and green/yellow arrows. But why not just use the red arrows now? Does Michigan still install this setup, or have they started adopting red arrows yet?

You know, it's so funny you asked, they just installed a completely restricted left turn light with a red arrow and no signature "LEFT" box at an entrance to a shopping center not too far from my house and at another shopping center a bit further away, they installed another as a replacement to an older one with both a red arrow and the "LEFT" box, so I really can't say what they're going for exactly now. I live in Ann Arbor, where it's almost all either completely restricted turning lights or no turning lights at all as opposed to Metro Detroit where it's almost all permissive flashing red ball or the increasingly common flashing yellow arrow. I know all the flashing yellow arrows have just red arrows (except one I've seen in Detroit with both a red arrow and the LEFT box) so maybe they're carrying the red arrow over to the standard for totally restricted turn lights now. I'll have to wait and see, I do hope they keep the LEFT and RIGHT boxes though, they're pretty much a signature Michigan road icon.

[Central Avenue]

One thing I've been wondering about: In states where the red arrows are just now being adopted (like Ohio and, apparently, Michigan), will existing red balls be replaced when their bulbs are replaced/converted to LED, or only when the intersection is reconfigured?

If it's the former, I'd expect to see a lot of signals with red arrows and redundant LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs (or, in Michigan's case, backlit LEFT boxes) cropping up over the next few years as the red balls are phased out.

[Daniel]

One thing I've been wondering about: In states where the red arrows are just now being adopted (like Ohio and, apparently, Michigan), will existing red balls be replaced when their bulbs are replaced/converted to LED, or only when the intersection is reconfigured?

If it's the former, I'd expect to see a lot of signals with red arrows and redundant LEFT TURN SIGNAL signs (or, in Michigan's case, backlit LEFT boxes) cropping up over the next few years as the red balls are phased out.

In Michigan, I'm going to assume it's only on completely new installations/light replacements. Rusty cases with LEDs are just something you don't see here. MDOT is in charge of most of our development/construction projects and they overzealously replace lights, signs, and even roads to the point where it's even been joked that the construction barrel should be the state flower. As for Ohio, I really can't say. The few times I've been this year I've seen red arrows at some oddly new all black w/ yellow back plate installations and a couple old turning lights in Sandusky that seemed to have just had the red light converted from ball to arrow with the LTS sign. So it seems like a variety across the state.

[Central Avenue]

Ah, I see. I suppose it depends, to some extent, on who maintains the signal. ODOT seems to have taken to replacing a huge number of their signals outright over the past couple years, adding in the red arrows as they go along, but counties or municipalities who keep their older signals in service might just opt to retrofit the existing ones.

[dfnva]

VDOT, at least in Northern Virginia, has been retrofitting some red ball signals with left red arrows as well as taking down the left turn signal signs when this has been done, though there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason to which intersections are being chosen for this retrofitting.

The retrofitting makes sense, esp. around Northern Virginia where most VDOT-maintained signals are not older than 10-15 years old. I wonder if the same is true around the Richmond suburbs with the proliferation of older 80's-era signals, esp. along US-60 and US-250.

[Brandon]

IDOT (Illinois) still uses the "Left Turn On Green Arrow" or "Left Turn Signal" signs even with the red arrows.

[Takumi]

VDOT, at least in Northern Virginia, has been retrofitting some red ball signals with left red arrows as well as taking down the left turn signal signs when this has been done, though there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason to which intersections are being chosen for this retrofitting.

The retrofitting makes sense, esp. around Northern Virginia where most VDOT-maintained signals are not older than 10-15 years old. I wonder if the same is true around the Richmond suburbs with the proliferation of older 80's-era signals, esp. along US-60 and US-250.

The other day I saw a signal that had the arrow and the Left Turn Signal sign, at the easternmost intersection of Monticello Avenue (VA 321) and Ironbound Road (James City County secondary 615) just outside Williamsburg city limits.

[74/171FAN]

VDOT, at least in Northern Virginia, has been retrofitting some red ball signals with left red arrows as well as taking down the left turn signal signs when this has been done, though there doesn't appear to be a rhyme or reason to which intersections are being chosen for this retrofitting.

The retrofitting makes sense, esp. around Northern Virginia where most VDOT-maintained signals are not older than 10-15 years old. I wonder if the same is true around the Richmond suburbs with the proliferation of older 80's-era signals, esp. along US-60 and US-250.

The other day I saw a signal that had the arrow and the Left Turn Signal sign, at the easternmost intersection of Monticello Avenue (VA 321) and Ironbound Road (James City County secondary 615) just outside Williamsburg city limits.

On the other hand, the signal for VA 10 at SR 732(Old Stage Rd) near Chester has just a red ball, which I think was placed in 2011.  This may just be temporary until the widening in the area is fully complete though.

[Mdcastle]

There's a total of 9 red balls in Minnesota that I know of, in programmed visibility signals along Lyndale Ave in Bloomington that were installed probably early 1970s. There used to be more, but some were replaced in signal replacement projects.

[FreewayDan]

One single red arrow; no double red arrows.

I also have a preference for Programmable Visibility red ball left turn signals.  California and Washington state have many of these configurations with the PV red ball left turn signal at the left end of the mast and a red arrow left turn signal at the left corner.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Anaheim,+CA&hl=en&ll=33.80328,-117.889287&spn=0.001413,0.006539&sll=47.617428,-122.193246&sspn=0.002542,0.006539&oq=Anah&gl=us&hnear=Anaheim,+Orange,+California&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=33.803281,-117.889289&panoid=_sYPI5ntvJ4hcd0hklPByw&cbp=11,82.8,,0,-8.61

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bellevue,+King,+Washington&hl=en&ll=47.617454,-122.193246&spn=0.001146,0.006539&sll=33.80328,-117.889287&sspn=0.003134,0.006539&gl=us&geocode=FQl61gIdmV23-A&hnear=Bellevue,+King,+Washington&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=47.617455,-122.193245&panoid=1cJz938qXqzFKElqN6FE8g&cbp=11,257.25,,1,-3.94

[M3019C LPS20]

Though I am accustomed to the use of the red arrow, I actually prefer a red ball signal indication.

From where I originally grew up in, many protected left turn traffic signals in New York City used the 8-8-12 traffic signal configuration, in which the two, individual 8" sections were composed of red and amber ball indications, while the 12" indication was, of course, a standard green arrow. To this day, some still exist in various locations of the five boroughs; however, standard 12" traffic signal heads that use arrow indications are far more abundant.

Aside from protected 8-8-12 left turn traffic signals, I also remember I used to see several 12" traffic signal heads that had once used the R/A.A./G.A. configuration. One signalized intersection in particular that had protected left turn traffic signals that used it was the service road that connects to the Belt Pkwy. and Cross Bay Blvd.  in Howard Beach, Queens, N.Y. Nowadays, it is rather rare to find one still in service in New York City, since most, if not all, were altered over the years (as far as I know).

I also remember the 8-12-12 traffic signal configuration, in which I am particularly fond of. The set-up consisted of an 8" red ball indication, while the two 12" sections used arrow indications. It was common to see one to serve as a protected left turn signal, but it also served as a general turn signal (either left or right). One could find several in service in Manhattan. Others exist elsewhere in certain locations outside of the city itself; however, I can't remember every one off the top of my head. Additionally, various protected left turn traffic signals that use this configuration are still in use in certain sections of Queens, New York. I'm aware of several from Queens Blvd., Linden Blvd., and Woodhaven Blvd. Over the years, though, New York City altered quite a handful of these, so what still exist are slowly dwindling. Basically, the city replaced the 8" section of the original configuration and replaced it with a 12" section that uses a red arrow signal indication. Makes sense, since it is rather unnecessary to replace the entire traffic signal with a brand new 12" traffic signal head altogether.

[codyg1985]

The Alabama DOT 1st Division has been retrofitting existing signals with red arrows, but they have not (yet) taken down the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs.