Funny money?

[english si]

1, 2, 5 system (which the US has for notes)

we barely have a 2.  it's really a 1-5-10-20-50-100 system these days.  20 is the highest seen regularly, but 50s and 100s are getting more and more use.

That's still a 1-2-5 pattern - I used 1, 2, 5 as shorthand for 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50

It's a $20 bill, but a 25c coin.

Dimes took some getting used to - the Nickel is bigger, yet worth less. I kept forgetting how much a dime was without reading the 'FIVE CENTS' on a nickel.

If we have to do everything in decimal, then the 1-2-5-10 sequence makes the most sense.  The 25¢ coin makes exactly as much sense as a hypothetical $4 note or coin.

Not really - it's a quarter, not two fifths. The equivalent would be a $2.50 bill - not horrendously silly, though $2 probably works better.

The multipliers for US denominations goes penny x5 x2 x2.5 x4 dollar x5 x2 ten dollars x2 x2.5 fifty dollars... Though there's a half dollar removing that x4.
The multipliers for UK denominations goes penny x2 x2.5 x2 x2 x2.5 x2 pound x2 x2.5 x2 tenner x2 x2.5 fifty pounds.
You have to have that 2.5 somewhere - the question "in which one of the two steps going from 10 to 50?"

As for US currency, the penny needs to go.  I'd say the nickel should go too, but then we'd have to round cash transactions to 10¢ and yet still have the quarter.

I'm not of the opinion that 5c is a small enough amount to ditch yet, though you could ditch the nickel and use the quarter to produce that fine grain (at 2.5 dimes). It does mean bringing back maths to ditch the nickel and keep the quarter. Something costs $4.95 - either you give some extra dimes on top of your bill, and pay $10.20 to get back a $5 and a quarter, or you get 4x$1, 3xquarter, 3xdime. Nah, keep the nickel for now, introduce a 20c coin and ditch the nickel and the quarter when 5c is worth what 2c is now.

On the other hand, if we killed the penny, nickel, and the dime, then we can just round everything to 25¢, which I think is still small enough to be practical.  And then, aside from spreadsheets and accounting, we can write amounts as fractional dollars and forget the cents altogether.

You can do that with dimes "tenths", or 20c coins "fifths". Even 5c 'twentyths' and cents 'hundredths', but now we're just being silly.

I do want a return to shillings in the UK - bring back sixpences 'half-shillings' for a few years (2.5p is about right at the moment as a fine grain) before they are inflated away, like half-pennies (worth 1.2d, or 0.5p), pennies (now worth less than the half-penny was when they got rid in the 80s) and two-penny-pieces (removed to be replaced by the half-shilling). Or just wait 9 years and reverse decimalization after 50 years, just ignore the d of £sd. 20 shillings in a pound - so equivalent to 5p.

I also think we need to drop paper bills under $10.  Mint coins of $1, $2, $5, $10, maybe even $20 in quantities sufficient that people will treat them as ordinary money and not novelties.

$10 and $20 are big enough for bills, rather coins. You don't want a ton of coins in your wallet.

And we need some practical coin-oriented wallet designs.

wallets are better with notes - cards and coins don't go well together. You could have a coin purse (UK, not US, English 'purse') and notes/cards wallets but that's two things.

I'm pretty sure the $1 will go away well before the $500 is issued again, but given that inflation is inevitable, we are almost guaranteed to see a $500

Given there's no demand from organised crime until the Euro breaks up (The Germans love of cash meaning that the €500 note exists, causing it to replace the $100 bill as the currency of choice for briefcase-based payments), you are quite right. Then again the Euro is tottering about...

[Molandfreak]

Meanwhile in Canada: "1 CENT", "5 CENTS", "10 CENTS", "25 cents", "1 dollar", "2 dollars".

It seems that some special issues like the Grey Cup one in my pockets (Steve: heads up if you don't have that one) are exceptions. It just says "CANADA [maple leaf] DOLLAR".

That's loonies and toonies

[Alps]

Anyways, one of the biggest ongoing complaints that I keep hearing from non-USAians is that the USA does not put denomination numbers on its coins.
Mike

A problem I have as an international numismatist is the use of non-Arabic numbers. Even the major Asian countries include Arabic numerals, most likely because they are developed and part of the international community, but places from Bangladesh to Sudan and in between, no such luck.

[english si]

A problem I have as an international numismatist is the use of non-Arabic numbers. Even the major Asian countries include Arabic numerals, most likely because they are developed and part of the international community, but places from Bangladesh to Sudan and in between, no such luck.

In other words, the Arab world...

Of course, they are really Indian numbers (came to the West via the Arabs), but that's in that gap too.

[mgk920]

Meanwhile in Canada: "1 CENT", "5 CENTS", "10 CENTS", "25 cents", "1 dollar", "2 dollars".

It seems that some special issues like the Grey Cup one in my pockets (Steve: heads up if you don't have that one) are exceptions. It just says "CANADA [maple leaf] DOLLAR".

That's loonies and toonies

Actually, 'Loonies' say "CANADA/DOLLAR".  Their 'Twonies' say "CANADA/2 DOLLARS".

Also, before the Euro, IIRC, only Nederlands did the '25' thing with their money, all of the rest did '20'.

Mike

[Duke87]

I remember using a $50 at a McDonald's once and the cashier initially refused to accept it because he had never seen one and insisted it wasn't real money. This was in the days before McDonald's took plastic and after a few minutes of this nonsense I asked them to summon the manager, who promptly berated the cashier for refusing the money instead of just calling him in the first place.

Congratulations on getting a fast food joint to accept a bill larger than $20! Most places like that in the US (also: convenience stores and gas stations) hate larger bills, especially if they are in a bad neighborhood or near a freeway. This is because such establishments are common easy targets for robberies and so they want to minimize the amount of cash someone can make off with.

all US coins have something listing their value, though it's not consistent and not always helpful:
-The penny says "one cent"; as long as you know what a cent is, you're fine
-Similarly, the nickel says "five cents"
-The dime, most unhelpfully, says "one dime".  I guess you're screwed if you don't know that a dime is 10 cents, but if you know that but not what a dime looks like, you're set.
-The quarter says "quarter dollar".  This works as long as you don't mind doing math.

Also worth noting that nickels were originally known as half dimes.


The point remains, though, that text on the coins is not as helpful as it could be since there are no numerals, just text. "Five cents" on the back of the nickel is tiny, such that many people who do not have good eyes will not be able to read it. And "quarter dollar" might be tough to decipher for someone who does not speak English very well.

[mgk920]

Half-dimes were 90% silver coins that contained half of the metal used in dimes, part of the silver coin size progression.  They were dropped due to their size and the intense lobbying of the nickel industry back in the immediate post-Civil War era.

Mike

[Alps]

Meanwhile in Canada: "1 CENT", "5 CENTS", "10 CENTS", "25 cents", "1 dollar", "2 dollars".

It seems that some special issues like the Grey Cup one in my pockets (Steve: heads up if you don't have that one) are exceptions. It just says "CANADA [maple leaf] DOLLAR".

That's loonies and toonies

Actually, 'Loonies' say "CANADA/DOLLAR".  Their 'Twonies' say "CANADA/2 DOLLARS".

Also, before the Euro, IIRC, only Nederlands did the '25' thing with their money, all of the rest did '20'.

Mike

Checking my Netherlands coins: Indeed. And I know offhand that France used 20.

[oscar]

I remember using a $50 at a McDonald's once and the cashier initially refused to accept it because he had never seen one and insisted it wasn't real money. This was in the days before McDonald's took plastic and after a few minutes of this nonsense I asked them to summon the manager, who promptly berated the cashier for refusing the money instead of just calling him in the first place.

Congratulations on getting a fast food joint to accept a bill larger than $20! Most places like that in the US (also: convenience stores and gas stations) hate larger bills, especially if they are in a bad neighborhood or near a freeway. This is because such establishments are common easy targets for robberies and so they want to minimize the amount of cash someone can make off with.

I haven't had that kind of problem with $50s at McDonald's -- the most that happens is that the manager gets called over to approve the bill.  Subways are more uneven on accepting anything over $20.

Businesses wanting to limit the amount of stealable cash on hand can and do put incoming $20s right into a time-lock safe (I think some 7-11s do that routinely).  They can do same for higher bills.  Of course, anyone paying with a $50 or $100 might get a lot of small bills in change, and be SOL if there aren't enough small bills on hand.

[Scott5114]

the 50 is, for whatever reason, less common than the 100 - maybe because people figure if you're gonna take out a lot of cash, you may as well have it occupy half as much space in your wallet.

I have heard a lot of people say they consider the $50 "unlucky".  That is a commonly held idea in casinos, where some people will walk away from a table if you put down 50s to get chips, and the cage will never, never, try to pay you with 50s.  Perhaps this superstition has passed to the general world.

At the casino I work at, there used to be a cashier that would try to use this to our advantage, and pay jackpots ending in -50 (like $1750) with a $50 bill if she had it. The idea–which worked sometimes–was that people would freak out at the $50 and give it back as a tip to get rid of it.

In the general world, the reason you don't see $50s very often is because there is often little reason to stock them. The safe contains a lot of change, $1s and $5s for replenishing the cashier drawers. You will end up getting lots of $20s from customers during the day, so $1s, $5s, and $20s are the main denominations you'll be dealing with. (You will get $10s too, but since most ATMs dispense in $20s, you will see them more.) The only thing $50s are good for, for a business, is for making change for $100s, so it's not worth the effort keeping some around when you can just use the $20s you'll have on hand no matter what you do. At the end of the day, you have no use for the $100s (they can't be used as change) the $50s represent too much money to just leave sitting around in the safe, and you have way the fuck too many $20s and will be getting more tomorrow. So those three denominations end up going off to the bank, along with any excess $5s and $1s.

Personally, if we have to change up the denomination system, I like the denominations that casino chips have: 50¢, $1, $5, $25, $100, $500. The $1s are worth two of the 50¢s, and the $100s are worth four $25s, but other than that you have a constant increase of 5x the previous value.

[bugo]

Elmer's BBQ (http://www.elmersbbqtulsaok.com/) in Tulsa appears to use cinnamon in their BBQ sauce.  If it isn't cinnamon it sure tastes like it.

[signalman]

I have heard a lot of people say they consider the $50 "unlucky".  That is a commonly held idea in casinos, where some people will walk away from a table if you put down 50s to get chips, and the cage will never, never, try to pay you with 50s.  Perhaps this superstition has passed to the general world.

At the casino I work at, there used to be a cashier that would try to use this to our advantage, and pay jackpots ending in -50 (like $1750) with a $50 bill if she had it. The idea–which worked sometimes–was that people would freak out at the $50 and give it back as a tip to get rid of it.

In the general world, the reason you don't see $50s very often is because there is often little reason to stock them. The safe contains a lot of change, $1s and $5s for replenishing the cashier drawers. You will end up getting lots of $20s from customers during the day, so $1s, $5s, and $20s are the main denominations you'll be dealing with. (You will get $10s too, but since most ATMs dispense in $20s, you will see them more.) The only thing $50s are good for, for a business, is for making change for $100s, so it's not worth the effort keeping some around when you can just use the $20s you'll have on hand no matter what you do. At the end of the day, you have no use for the $100s (they can't be used as change) the $50s represent too much money to just leave sitting around in the safe, and you have way the fuck too many $20s and will be getting more tomorrow. So those three denominations end up going off to the bank, along with any excess $5s and $1s.

Personally, if we have to change up the denomination system, I like the denominations that casino chips have: 50¢, $1, $5, $25, $100, $500. The $1s are worth two of the 50¢s, and the $100s are worth four $25s, but other than that you have a constant increase of 5x the previous value.

At first I was thinking SP's theory on $50s was accurate.  But thanks to Scott and his post as a casino worker, $50 bills at casinos seems to make sense.  I remember about a year ago I hit for over $3000 on a table game and had a few vouchers from slot machines.  (It was a good night for me at the casino for a change.)  Anyway, when I went to the cage to cash in my chips and vouchers for cash I was paid in mostly $100s, then the small part was 20s and two 5s.  After counting the money myself, I took two 20s and two 5s and pushed them back to the cashier asking for a $50.  Personally, I like 50s.  Anyway, the cashier informed me that they had no 50s on hand and I was a bit taken back by it.  I wasn't mad, just kinda shocked considering how much cash they handle.  But after reading what Scott had to say, I guess I can see the point.  I'm in retail management and I know exactly what he means by there being a shit load of 20s every day. 

[kphoger]

I haven't had that kind of problem with $50s at McDonald's -- the most that happens is that the manager gets called over to approve the bill.  Subways are more uneven on accepting anything over $20.

When travelling with a group, I frequently pay with a $50 bill, and many of those meals are at fast-food restaurants.  I've never had a problem.  I mean, if my total bill is $57, then who is going to complain about receiving a $50 bill and a $10 bill?

[mgk920]

Here's an interesting article on the issue of the USA's low-value coins and what should the USMint do with them:

http://news.coinupdate.com/us-mint-reports-findings-of-alternative-coin-materials-research-1765/

I added some commentary to the bottom of that page.

Enjoy!



Mike

[Duke87]

Really, the fact that the metals in a dollar coin are only worth 21 cents is just as odd as the fact that the metals in a nickel are worth 10 cents. Used to be they had to roughly match. The wonders of a fiat currency mean the former no longer really matters, but the latter is a problem because if a coin is worth more in raw material than in face value, then people will melt them down for their metals.

You can mess with the composition I suppose, but really, if nickels and pennies cost twice as much to make as they're worth, I only see that as further justification for getting rid of them.

[kphoger]

Interesting situations would arise were we to do away with the nickel but not the quarter.  For example, it would be perfectly possible to pay for a 95c item with three quarters and two dimes, yet it would be impossible to give change back for a dollar.

[Road Hog]

Interesting situations would arise were we to do away with the nickel but not the quarter.  For example, it would be perfectly possible to pay for a 95c item with three quarters and two dimes, yet it would be impossible to give change back for a dollar.

In that case, everything would be priced in 10¢ increments, so there would no longer be a need for nickels.

[kphoger]

Interesting situations would arise were we to do away with the nickel but not the quarter.  For example, it would be perfectly possible to pay for a 95c item with three quarters and two dimes, yet it would be impossible to give change back for a dollar.

In that case, everything would be priced in 10¢ increments, so there would no longer be a need for nickels.

Which begs the question:  If everything were priced in 10c increments, would we still keep the quarter?

[agentsteel53]

Which begs the question:  If everything were priced in 10c increments, would we still keep the quarter?

having to pay with as many as nine coins would make coins even more unpopular.

[1995hoo]

Which begs the question:  If everything were priced in 10c increments, would we still keep the quarter?

having to pay with as many as nine coins would make coins even more unpopular.

If everything were priced in 10¢ increments, perhaps the half-dollar would make a comeback (possibly re-sized to make it lighter and easier to fit into your pocket or those long flat wallets women use).

[vdeane]

If they were to do that, perhaps half dollars could take the size of nickels.

[agentsteel53]

If they were to do that, perhaps half dollars could take the size of nickels.

but a brass color, at the very least, and perhaps thicker - like an English pound coin. 

certainly it would be necessary to make them different enough for vending machines to be able to continue functioning.

[Alps]

Get rid of the penny, nickel, and quarter. Establish a new currency equal to 10 of the old one. Dime->penny, half dollar->nickel, dollar->dime.

[mgk920]

However, I'd wait until the federal fiscal situation is brought back under control before tackling the question of the best denominational balance between coins and banknotes, including the question of what are the denominations that we should be using.  Right now, with over 40% of current federal spending being borrowed and/or 'printed', I fear that a major inflation is about to strike us, such that any coinage reform would very, very quickly be rendered moot.

Mike

[vdeane]

However, I'd wait until the federal fiscal situation is brought back under control before tackling the question of the best denominational balance between coins and banknotes, including the question of what are the denominations that we should be using.  Right now, with over 40% of current federal spending being borrowed and/or 'printed', I fear that a major inflation is about to strike us, such that any coinage reform would very, very quickly be rendered moot.

Mike

We'll get back to you after the heat death of the universe.