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Only in this state....

Started by cjk374, December 13, 2012, 04:39:44 PM

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Brandon

Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 03:46:10 PM
True, but these are special intersections with higher asshole potential.

That describes most any intersection around Chicago.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton, "Game of Thrones"

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg, "Monty Python's Life of Brian"


roadfro

Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 01:00:38 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 04, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Doesn't flashing yellow currently mean "just blow on through"?
Not if you intend to turn left.
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
On the other hand, the flashing yellow arrow might suggest that left turning traffic can blow through yielding to no-one (like steady green arrow) as through traffic does on a flashing yellow ball (like steady green ball).  Rather than apply the existing meaning of a flashing yellow ball for left turning traffic, FHWA chose to create a new meaning for the arrow, in the case of that arrow being yellow and flashing: now you must yield to oncoming traffic, even though you have an arrow indication.

A flashing circular yellow has never meant "just blow through", but has always meant "proceed with caution". FHWA clarified the MUTCD definition of all flashing yellow signals in the 2009 MUTCD, and both are consistent with each other.

2003 MUTCD, Sec 4D.04 (Meaning of Vehicular Signal Indications)
Quote
D. Flashing signal indications shall have the following meanings:

   1.  Flashing yellow–When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, vehicular traffic is permitted to proceed through the intersection or past such signal indication only with caution.

   3.  Flashing RED ARROW and flashing YELLOW ARROW signal indications have the same meaning as the corresponding flashing circular signal indication, except that they apply only to vehicular traffic intending to make the movement indicated by the arrow.

2009 MUTCD, Sec 4D.04 (Meaning of Vehicular Signal Indications)
Quote
E.  Flashing yellow signal indications shall have the following meanings:

   1.  Vehicular traffic, on an approach to an intersection, facing a flashing CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is permitted to cautiously enter the intersection to proceed straight through or turn right or left or make a U-turn except as such movement is modified by lane-use signs, turn prohibition signs, lane markings, roadway design, separate turn signal indications, or other traffic control devices.

       Such vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left or making a U-turn, shall yield the right-of-way to:
        a. Pedestrians lawfully within an associated crosswalk, and
        b. Other vehicles lawfully within the intersection.

       In addition, vehicular traffic turning left or making a U-turn to the left shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles approaching from the opposite direction so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such turning vehicle is moving across or within the intersection.
   
   2.  Vehicular traffic, on an approach to an intersection, facing a flashing YELLOW ARROW signal indication, displayed alone or in combination with another signal indication, is permitted to cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by such arrow, or other such movement as is permitted by other signal indications displayed at the same time.

       Such vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left or making a U-turn, shall yield the right-of-way to:
        (a) Pedestrians lawfully within an associated crosswalk, and
        (b) Other vehicles lawfully within the intersection.

       In addition, vehicular traffic turning left or making a U-turn to the left shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles approaching from the opposite direction so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such turning vehicle is moving across or within the intersection.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Kacie Jane

Quote from: roadfro on January 04, 2013, 05:22:14 PM
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 01:00:38 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 04, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Doesn't flashing yellow currently mean "just blow on through"?
Not if you intend to turn left.
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
On the other hand, the flashing yellow arrow might suggest that left turning traffic can blow through yielding to no-one (like steady green arrow) as through traffic does on a flashing yellow ball (like steady green ball).  Rather than apply the existing meaning of a flashing yellow ball for left turning traffic, FHWA chose to create a new meaning for the arrow, in the case of that arrow being yellow and flashing: now you must yield to oncoming traffic, even though you have an arrow indication.

A flashing circular yellow has never meant "just blow through", but has always meant "proceed with caution". FHWA clarified the MUTCD definition of all flashing yellow signals in the 2009 MUTCD, and both are consistent with each other.

I don't think deanej or vtk meant to imply that the MUTCD literally defined a flashing yellow as "just blow through"; I know I didn't mean that.  But the caveat "with caution" is relatively useless.  I mean, shouldn't you always drive with caution?  What particular caution are you supposed to use at a flashing yellow?  Should you reduce your speed?  By how much?

I stand by what I said, that in practice, a flashing yellow ball means to continue driving as you normally would, but keep an eye out for entering/crossing traffic (as you should at any intersection, whether it has a yellow ball or not).

Mergingtraffic

Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 04, 2013, 05:22:14 PM
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 01:00:38 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 04, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Doesn't flashing yellow currently mean "just blow on through"?
Not if you intend to turn left.
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
On the other hand, the flashing yellow arrow might suggest that left turning traffic can blow through yielding to no-one (like steady green arrow) as through traffic does on a flashing yellow ball (like steady green ball).  Rather than apply the existing meaning of a flashing yellow ball for left turning traffic, FHWA chose to create a new meaning for the arrow, in the case of that arrow being yellow and flashing: now you must yield to oncoming traffic, even though you have an arrow indication.

A flashing circular yellow has never meant "just blow through", but has always meant "proceed with caution". FHWA clarified the MUTCD definition of all flashing yellow signals in the 2009 MUTCD, and both are consistent with each other.

I don't think deanej or vtk meant to imply that the MUTCD literally defined a flashing yellow as "just blow through"; I know I didn't mean that.  But the caveat "with caution" is relatively useless.  I mean, shouldn't you always drive with caution?  What particular caution are you supposed to use at a flashing yellow?  Should you reduce your speed?  By how much?

I stand by what I said, that in practice, a flashing yellow ball means to continue driving as you normally would, but keep an eye out for entering/crossing traffic (as you should at any intersection, whether it has a yellow ball or not).

If you have a yellow light, you have the right of way, or at the very least your right of way is soon coming to an end (b/c the light will soon turn red)

According to Michgan's DOT site, the flashing yellow arrow means you dont have the right away and must yield to uncoming traffic.  This is confusing to most drivers I would think.

B/c every other time you have a "yellow anything" it means you still have the right of way.  Flashing yellow beacon, yellow light on a regular traffic light etc.  So if I had a flashing yellow arrow I would think, I still have the right of way and stop if I can safely do so until the next green arrow comes on. 


It seems the MUTCD is splitting hairs and making rules that most drivers won't know how to understand them.  Does a driver really understand when a broken line turns into a dotted line on a multilane highway that their lane or a lane next to them is ending?  Do most drivers really figure out what that means?
I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
MergingTraffic https://www.flickr.com/photos/98731835@N05/

Big John

Never underestimate the misunderstandings of motorists.  A FYA should be accompanied with a sign showing its meaning at least for a time for motorists to get used to its meaning.  Even my sister has problems understanding the solid red arrow - she still thinks that means a left turn is allowed after stopping, even after me reminding her to wait until the green arrow appears to turn or a waiting cop could pull her over.

KEK Inc.

Quote from: Big John on January 04, 2013, 08:44:00 PM
problems understanding the solid red arrow - she still thinks that means a left turn is allowed after stopping, even after me reminding her to wait until the green arrow appears to turn or a waiting cop could pull her over.

This is why a drive test should be required everytime you renew your license.
Take the road less traveled.

Scott5114

How do you fuck up a red arrow? The only time you can proceed after stopping on a red light is when you're turning right.

Norman has solved the issue of drivers potentially not understanding the FYA by including this sign next to each FYA installation. (This is an older version of the sign; newer ones have a MUTCD arrow in the circle but are otherwise the same.) FYAs are so common in Norman now they could probably stop posting them, but they are still handy for visitors.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hbelkins

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2013, 09:38:11 PM
The only time you can proceed after stopping on a red light is when you're turning right.

In Kentucky, you can turn left on red if you're turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street.
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

xcellntbuy

Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2013, 10:36:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2013, 09:38:11 PM
The only time you can proceed after stopping on a red light is when you're turning right.

In Kentucky, you can turn left on red if you're turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street.
Same in New York outside the City of New York.

hbelkins

Does NYC also prohibit right turn on red?
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Kacie Jane

LTOR for one-ways is legal in a majority of states.  We covered it in this thread.  Methinks Scott had merely forgotten about one-way streets when he posted his comment.

And yes, RTOR is still illegal in New York City as far as I know.

Brandon

Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2013, 10:36:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2013, 09:38:11 PM
The only time you can proceed after stopping on a red light is when you're turning right.

In Kentucky, you can turn left on red if you're turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street.

Ditto in Illinois.  And in Michigan, you can turn left on red from a two-way street onto a one-way street.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton, "Game of Thrones"

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg, "Monty Python's Life of Brian"

roadfro

Quote from: doofy103 on January 04, 2013, 08:20:22 PM
If you have a yellow light, you have the right of way, or at the very least your right of way is soon coming to an end (b/c the light will soon turn red)

According to Michgan's DOT site, the flashing yellow arrow means you dont have the right away and must yield to uncoming traffic.  This is confusing to most drivers I would think.

B/c every other time you have a "yellow anything" it means you still have the right of way.  Flashing yellow beacon, yellow light on a regular traffic light etc.  So if I had a flashing yellow arrow I would think, I still have the right of way and stop if I can safely do so until the next green arrow comes on. 

I think you're blurring the issue combining comments on steady vs. flashing yellow. Also, beacons attached to signs are different from flashing yellow signals.

Michigan DOT's site is correct in that you must yield to oncoming traffic. I don't see how that would be any more confusing to drivers any than seeing a circular green and assuming you have right of way to turn when you still are supposed to yield.

Quote
It seems the MUTCD is splitting hairs and making rules that most drivers won't know how to understand them.  Does a driver really understand when a broken line turns into a dotted line on a multilane highway that their lane or a lane next to them is ending?  Do most drivers really figure out what that means?

I know I picked up on the difference in lane line styles pretty quick as a new driver. For me when driving in an unfamiliar area, the dotted line is a visual cue that a lane is dropping or will be a mandatory turn--often I will see that before noticing the related turn signs. It is a important enough cue that I curse the applicable DOT or public works agency when I get caught in such a lane drop that didn't use dotted lines...
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Alps

Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2013, 10:57:42 PM
Does NYC also prohibit right turn on red?
RTOR and LTOR are blanket prohibited unless otherwise posted. Many of the exceptions are on Staten Island, but there are scattered other ones in all boroughs.

vdeane

Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 04, 2013, 02:56:28 PM
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 01:00:38 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 04, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Doesn't flashing yellow currently mean "just blow on through"?

Not if you intend to turn left.

how is it different from an intersection without a signal for the through way?  i.e. only STOP signs for the side street.  when I turn left onto the side street, I have to watch for oncoming traffic regardless of the presence of a flashing yellow.

Exactly.  In a situation with no signal at all, or when faced with a flashing yellow ball, a person turning left must yield to oncoming traffic, but is not otherwise required to stop. 

So if you're designing a traffic signal for one or more left turn lanes, where sometimes left turns are prohibited, sometimes they are permitted, and sometimes they are protected, why the heck not use a flashing yellow ball for the permissive/unprotected left? 

On the other hand, the flashing yellow arrow might suggest that left turning traffic can blow through yielding to no-one (like steady green arrow) as through traffic does on a flashing yellow ball (like steady green ball).  Rather than apply the existing meaning of a flashing yellow ball for left turning traffic, FHWA chose to create a new meaning for the arrow, in the case of that arrow being yellow and flashing: now you must yield to oncoming traffic, even though you have an arrow indication.

On the other hand, many drivers aren't smart enough to properly combine known meanings of arrow vs ball with flashing red vs flashing yellow vs steady green, and they have to learn specific meanings for each individual case anyway.
If you were going to use a ball, you could just use a doghouse signal ;)

Quote from: Kacie Jane on January 04, 2013, 05:46:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 04, 2013, 05:22:14 PM
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 01:00:38 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 04, 2013, 12:47:48 PM
Doesn't flashing yellow currently mean "just blow on through"?
Not if you intend to turn left.
Quote from: vtk on January 04, 2013, 04:27:42 PM
On the other hand, the flashing yellow arrow might suggest that left turning traffic can blow through yielding to no-one (like steady green arrow) as through traffic does on a flashing yellow ball (like steady green ball).  Rather than apply the existing meaning of a flashing yellow ball for left turning traffic, FHWA chose to create a new meaning for the arrow, in the case of that arrow being yellow and flashing: now you must yield to oncoming traffic, even though you have an arrow indication.

A flashing circular yellow has never meant "just blow through", but has always meant "proceed with caution". FHWA clarified the MUTCD definition of all flashing yellow signals in the 2009 MUTCD, and both are consistent with each other.

I don't think deanej or vtk meant to imply that the MUTCD literally defined a flashing yellow as "just blow through"; I know I didn't mean that.  But the caveat "with caution" is relatively useless.  I mean, shouldn't you always drive with caution?  What particular caution are you supposed to use at a flashing yellow?  Should you reduce your speed?  By how much?

I stand by what I said, that in practice, a flashing yellow ball means to continue driving as you normally would, but keep an eye out for entering/crossing traffic (as you should at any intersection, whether it has a yellow ball or not).
Some advisory speed signs in NY would suggest that you should reduce speed at these things, but NY underposts advisory speed signs to such a degree that they don't really affect much.  Aside from glancing at the cross street, I don't really change much of my driving with respect to the flashing yellows; I suspect they're just there in an attempt to provide idiot insurance.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kphoger

Quote from: roadfro on January 05, 2013, 01:46:06 AM
Quote from: doofy103 on January 04, 2013, 08:20:22 PM
If you have a yellow light, you have the right of way, or at the very least your right of way is soon coming to an end (b/c the light will soon turn red)

According to Michgan's DOT site, the flashing yellow arrow means you dont have the right away and must yield to uncoming traffic.  This is confusing to most drivers I would think.

B/c every other time you have a "yellow anything" it means you still have the right of way.  Flashing yellow beacon, yellow light on a regular traffic light etc.  So if I had a flashing yellow arrow I would think, I still have the right of way and stop if I can safely do so until the next green arrow comes on. 

I don't see how that would be any more confusing to drivers any than seeing a circular green and assuming you have right of way to turn when you still are supposed to yield.
{emphasis added}

You hit the nail on the head there.  People don't think it's OK to turn left in front of oncoming traffic just because they have a circular green light, so why would they think it's OK to do so with a flashing yellow arrow?  If anything, people understand a flashing yellow light of any variety to mean 'watch out', which is very much in concert with the laws on the books.  Most flashing yellow light laws say something like "may proceed only with caution'; in fact, 'right of way' is a rarely used term in US law.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

vtk

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2013, 02:01:29 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 05, 2013, 01:46:06 AM
Quote from: doofy103 on January 04, 2013, 08:20:22 PM
If you have a yellow light, you have the right of way, or at the very least your right of way is soon coming to an end (b/c the light will soon turn red)

According to Michgan's DOT site, the flashing yellow arrow means you dont have the right away and must yield to uncoming traffic.  This is confusing to most drivers I would think.

B/c every other time you have a "yellow anything" it means you still have the right of way.  Flashing yellow beacon, yellow light on a regular traffic light etc.  So if I had a flashing yellow arrow I would think, I still have the right of way and stop if I can safely do so until the next green arrow comes on. 

I don't see how that would be any more confusing to drivers any than seeing a circular green and assuming you have right of way to turn when you still are supposed to yield.
{emphasis added}

You hit the nail on the head there.  People don't think it's OK to turn left in front of oncoming traffic just because they have a circular green light,

For many years the standard in Michigan was to indicate a protected left with a steady green ball under a "LEFT" sign.

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2013, 02:01:29 PM
so why would they think it's OK to do so with a flashing yellow arrow?

Because for many years in many places such as Ohio, a left-pointing arrow (as opposed to a ball) in a traffic signal always referred to a protected turn.
Wait, it's all Ohio? Always has been.

kphoger

Quote from: vtk on January 05, 2013, 02:37:49 PM
For many years the standard in Michigan was to indicate a protected left with a steady green ball under a "LEFT" sign.

But I assume that, back then in Michigan, at every intersection without protected left turns, drivers didn't just go barging across oncoming traffic thinking they had the right of way by virtue of the steady green ball.

Quote from: vtk on January 05, 2013, 02:37:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2013, 02:01:29 PM
so why would they think it's OK to do so with a flashing yellow arrow?

Because for many years in many places such as Ohio, a left-pointing arrow (as opposed to a ball) in a traffic signal always referred to a protected turn.

I'd still contend that most drivers didn't/don't know that a left-pointing arrow always referred to a protected turn, and also that the meaning of a yellow light (that yellow=caution) would naturally supercede any such knowledge.

He Is Already Here! Let's Go, Flamingo!
Dost thou understand the graveness of the circumstances?
Deut 23:13
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: PKDIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Mr_Northside

#393
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2013, 02:01:29 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 05, 2013, 01:46:06 AM
Quote from: doofy103 on January 04, 2013, 08:20:22 PM
If you have a yellow light, you have the right of way, or at the very least your right of way is soon coming to an end (b/c the light will soon turn red)

According to Michgan's DOT site, the flashing yellow arrow means you dont have the right away and must yield to uncoming traffic.  This is confusing to most drivers I would think.

B/c every other time you have a "yellow anything" it means you still have the right of way.  Flashing yellow beacon, yellow light on a regular traffic light etc.  So if I had a flashing yellow arrow I would think, I still have the right of way and stop if I can safely do so until the next green arrow comes on. 

I don't see how that would be any more confusing to drivers any than seeing a circular green and assuming you have right of way to turn when you still are supposed to yield.
{emphasis added}

You hit the nail on the head there.  People don't think it's OK to turn left in front of oncoming traffic just because they have a circular green light, so why would they think it's OK to do so with a flashing yellow arrow?

I look at it the other way around.  I don't know why people would assume they HAVE to yield at a FYA.  It goes back to an earlier point here that a flashing yellow circular pretty much functions as a green light except with a "proceed with caution" feel to it.  Adding an arrow to that [should] simply modifies it to include protected turns as well.

I can't think of anything about the parts of an FYA that would lead me to think yielding to oncoming traffic was a part of its function: 
Flashing yellow circulars indicate to proceed (albeit with caution), and Flashing red indicates coming to a complete stop like a stop sign  So, flashing does not have any "yield" aspects to it. 
Yellow(arrow or ball), when solid simply indicates that your signal is about to turn red.  And prior to the FYA, Flashing Yellow indicated to proceed, but with caution.  So there isn't really anything about yellow that inherently has any "yield" aspects to it. 
And finally, the Arrow, by it's very nature (at least prior to the FYA, and especially for left turns) is what explicitly tells you that you don't have to yield; that you're turn movements are protected.
QuoteIf anything, people understand a flashing yellow light of any variety to mean 'watch out', which is very much in concert with the laws on the books.  Most flashing yellow light laws say something like "may proceed only with caution'; in fact, 'right of way' is a rarely used term in US law.

Agreed... though "watch out" and "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT EQUAL "assume you have to yield".  Especially with a modifier (the arrow) to the signal indicating that there is an element of protection to the left turn lane.
I guess one of the main cornerstones of my position is that using an arrow in a yield situation is kind of oxymoronic.  Which is why, if I came upon to a FYA with no prior knowledge of it, I certainly would not deduce that it functions the same as a green ball.

Of course, after being in at least 2 discussions about it, I certainly can't claim to not know how it's intended to work.

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2013, 02:57:09 PM
I'd still contend that most drivers didn't/don't know that a left-pointing arrow always referred to a protected turn, and also that the meaning of a yellow light (that yellow=caution) would naturally supercede any such knowledge.

I can't imagine how such drivers could be so dumb (and I'm not trying to be as insulating as that sounds).  That's bascially what the arrow IS. 
And once again, "caution" is not the same as "Assume you have to yield to oncoming traffic" (at least in my opinion.)

I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

xcellntbuy

Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2013, 10:57:42 PM
Does NYC also prohibit right turn on red?
Yes.  Signs are usually posted on major highways as you cross the city line.

hbelkins

Quote from: Steve on January 05, 2013, 10:49:31 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2013, 10:57:42 PM
Does NYC also prohibit right turn on red?
RTOR and LTOR are blanket prohibited unless otherwise posted. Many of the exceptions are on Staten Island, but there are scattered other ones in all boroughs.

I'm guessing that's done in the interests of pedestrian safety vs. moving traffic more efficiently?
Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

PurdueBill

The protected/permitted/yield/right of way/circular/arrow/steady/flashing confusion could have been avoided if the flashing green weren't wasted.  Only three colors, only two modes (flashing or steady)...not too many combinations.  Flashing green would have been better for proceeding with caution when you have the right of way, and then flashing yellow could mean more like it does for the current FYA.  As it is, flashing yellow has different uses--circular signal heads, warning flashers, and FYAs, while flashing green goes unused (yes, except for a couple places where it's dying anyway).

roadfro

#397
Quote from: Mr_Northside on January 05, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
I look at it the other way around.  I don't know why people would assume they HAVE to yield at a FYA.  It goes back to an earlier point here that a flashing yellow circular pretty much functions as a green light except with a "proceed with caution" feel to it.  Adding an arrow to that [should] simply modifies it to include protected turns as well.

I can't think of anything about the parts of an FYA that would lead me to think yielding to oncoming traffic was a part of its function: 
Flashing yellow circulars indicate to proceed (albeit with caution), and Flashing red indicates coming to a complete stop like a stop sign  So, flashing does not have any "yield" aspects to it. 
Yellow(arrow or ball), when solid simply indicates that your signal is about to turn red.  And prior to the FYA, Flashing Yellow indicated to proceed, but with caution.  So there isn't really anything about yellow that inherently has any "yield" aspects to it. 
And finally, the Arrow, by it's very nature (at least prior to the FYA, and especially for left turns) is what explicitly tells you that you don't have to yield; that you're turn movements are protected.
<...>
Agreed... though "watch out" and "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT EQUAL "assume you have to yield".  Especially with a modifier (the arrow) to the signal indicating that there is an element of protection to the left turn lane.
I guess one of the main cornerstones of my position is that using an arrow in a yield situation is kind of oxymoronic.  Which is why, if I came upon to a FYA with no prior knowledge of it, I certainly would not deduce that it functions the same as a green ball.

{bold+italic emphasis added}
Wanted to touch on these three points...

Look at it this way:  An FYA signal is used only where there the turning traffic has a separate turn lane for making the turns. During the flashing yellow arrow permissive phase, left turning traffic has to yield to oncoming traffic in order to make the turn. If you take the same situation prior to FYA (i.e. standard signal or a 5-section doghouse/vertical/horizontal signal), during the circular green permissive phase, how did you make the left turn? You had to yield to oncoming traffic--hence the "Left turn yield on [green ball]" sign. Thus, it's the nature of making a permissive left turn that requires a driver to yield, not the presence of a flashing yellow arrow.

Then examine the meaning of an arrow signal. Arrows are special signal indications to govern turning movements in the direction of the arrow. An arrow does not necessarily exist only to signify a protected turning movement, as they can be used in other applications--although granted protected turns are the most common application, and I am admittedly hard pressed to come up with another example at present.  (Pertinent sidebar: if arrows were meant only for protected movements, what would be the purpose of a red arrow?)

Now, with the latest MUTCD, FHWA decided that any signal head directly above a dedicated turn lane should use an all-arrow display. Apparently, there was research that showed a circular green above dedicated turn lanes was sometimes interpreted by drivers as if they had a protected turn when it was really permissive--i.e. they were "proceeding" when they should have been "proceeding with caution". The FYA combined the desire to have an all-arrow display controlling only the dedicated turn lane with the existing meaning of a flashing yellow indication (proceed with caution) to signify a permitted left turn. No new definitions...just applying two concepts into one application.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

KEK Inc.

Quote from: hbelkins on January 04, 2013, 10:36:41 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 04, 2013, 09:38:11 PM
The only time you can proceed after stopping on a red light is when you're turning right.

In Kentucky, you can turn left on red if you're turning from a one-way street onto another one-way street.

Pretty sure that's true anywhere.  Logically, it's the same as turning right on a conventional intersection.  As long as you don't cross a lane of on-coming traffic on both your road and the intersecting road, it's usually allowed.
Take the road less traveled.

Mergingtraffic

Quote from: Mr_Northside on January 05, 2013, 03:08:52 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2013, 02:01:29 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 05, 2013, 01:46:06 AM
Quote from: doofy103 on January 04, 2013, 08:20:22 PM
If you have a yellow light, you have the right of way, or at the very least your right of way is soon coming to an end (b/c the light will soon turn red)

According to Michgan's DOT site, the flashing yellow arrow means you dont have the right away and must yield to uncoming traffic.  This is confusing to most drivers I would think.

B/c every other time you have a "yellow anything" it means you still have the right of way.  Flashing yellow beacon, yellow light on a regular traffic light etc.  So if I had a flashing yellow arrow I would think, I still have the right of way and stop if I can safely do so until the next green arrow comes on. 

I don't see how that would be any more confusing to drivers any than seeing a circular green and assuming you have right of way to turn when you still are supposed to yield.
{emphasis added}

You hit the nail on the head there.  People don't think it's OK to turn left in front of oncoming traffic just because they have a circular green light, so why would they think it's OK to do so with a flashing yellow arrow?

I look at it the other way around.  I don't know why people would assume they HAVE to yield at a FYA.  It goes back to an earlier point here that a flashing yellow circular pretty much functions as a green light except with a "proceed with caution" feel to it.  Adding an arrow to that [should] simply modifies it to include protected turns as well.

I can't think of anything about the parts of an FYA that would lead me to think yielding to oncoming traffic was a part of its function: 
Flashing yellow circulars indicate to proceed (albeit with caution), and Flashing red indicates coming to a complete stop like a stop sign  So, flashing does not have any "yield" aspects to it. 
Yellow(arrow or ball), when solid simply indicates that your signal is about to turn red.  And prior to the FYA, Flashing Yellow indicated to proceed, but with caution.  So there isn't really anything about yellow that inherently has any "yield" aspects to it. 
And finally, the Arrow, by it's very nature (at least prior to the FYA, and especially for left turns) is what explicitly tells you that you don't have to yield; that you're turn movements are protected.
QuoteIf anything, people understand a flashing yellow light of any variety to mean 'watch out', which is very much in concert with the laws on the books.  Most flashing yellow light laws say something like "may proceed only with caution'; in fact, 'right of way' is a rarely used term in US law.

Agreed... though "watch out" and "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT EQUAL "assume you have to yield".  Especially with a modifier (the arrow) to the signal indicating that there is an element of protection to the left turn lane.
I guess one of the main cornerstones of my position is that using an arrow in a yield situation is kind of oxymoronic.  Which is why, if I came upon to a FYA with no prior knowledge of it, I certainly would not deduce that it functions the same as a green ball.

Of course, after being in at least 2 discussions about it, I certainly can't claim to not know how it's intended to work.

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2013, 02:57:09 PM
I'd still contend that most drivers didn't/don't know that a left-pointing arrow always referred to a protected turn, and also that the meaning of a yellow light (that yellow=caution) would naturally supercede any such knowledge.

I can't imagine how such drivers could be so dumb (and I'm not trying to be as insulating as that sounds).  That's bascially what the arrow IS. 
And once again, "caution" is not the same as "Assume you have to yield to oncoming traffic" (at least in my opinion.)

Playing the advocate here: 

Other times you have a "yellow" light or arrow:

1) solid yellow ball, usually after a green light, therefore you still have the ROW (although it's coming to an end).
2) yellow arrow, usually after a green arrow, therefore you still have the ROW (although it's coming to an end).
3) flashing yellow ball, at a blinking stoplight, means you have the ROW, other side has flashing red, which they don't have the ROW.
4) flashing beacon, means you have the ROW.

So, one would think coming up to a FYA, you would have the ROW.  I don't think how this can be safer considering people think "Yield" signs mean beat the other guy to the punch.  It seems the MUTCD is getting to specific. 
I only take pics of good looking signs. Long live non-reflective button copy!
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