NYC speed limit lowered from 30 to 25

[Pete from Boston]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/cityroom/2014/11/06/new-york-today-taking-it-slow/?_r=0&referrer=

On "most streets," says the article.

My question, unaddressed in what I read–how will this affect surfing the green light wave uptown and down?

[cl94]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/cityroom/2014/11/06/new-york-today-taking-it-slow/?_r=0&referrer=

On "most streets," says the article.

My question, unaddressed in what I read–how will this affect surfing the green light wave uptown and down?

Depends on what speed the lights are set to. It's not like the average speed on most avenues is anywhere close to 25 and I doubt the NYPD will waste time getting the people going 30. Also, now that many (if not the majority of) lights are linked to a central computer system, the green wave could be readjusted to fit the new speed limit with the push of a button.

[storm2k]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/cityroom/2014/11/06/new-york-today-taking-it-slow/?_r=0&referrer=

On "most streets," says the article.

My question, unaddressed in what I read–how will this affect surfing the green light wave uptown and down?

The green wave was always set for 28. I don't think it will affect it too much.

[empirestate]

If moving regulations are anything like parking violations, New Yorkers will do what they feel they can get away with, and not do what they feel they can't. It doesn't matter whether the number is 25 or 30, although changing it might provide the excuse for increased enforcement that, if applied broadly and consistently enough, would be the real deterring factor.

For example, double parking carries a much stiffer penalty than failing to move your car during street cleaning. However, people universally choose to double park rather than leave their car in the street cleaning zone, because they will receive a ticket for the latter much more certainly than for the former. By the same token, many legal parking spaces, such as at certain pedestrian ramps, will go almost completely unused because the police are very likely to issue an erroneous ticket for them.

In other words, there's what's legal, and then there's "accepted practice". All that needs to be done is to move fast driving out of the second category. It's eminently conceivable, as many other ingrained aspects of NYC culture seem to have gone by the wayside recently, but whether it will actually occur in the case of speeding remains to be seen.

[cl94]

In other words, there's what's legal, and then there's "accepted practice". All that needs to be done is to move fast driving out of the second category. It's eminently conceivable, as many other ingrained aspects of NYC culture seem to have gone by the wayside recently, but whether it will actually occur in the case of speeding remains to be seen.

Um...no! One of the great things about driving downstate is that, unless everything is stopped, everyone moves fast. The rest of the company slows down if there's traffic. Not New York. Yeah, it's more dangerous, but downstate drivers tend to be good drivers-it's the only way one can drive there every day and not get killed. If everyone is going the same speed, no matter if it's 55, 70, or 90 in good conditions, it's a lot safer than if half the cars are doing 70-80 and the rest are going 50-55.

[jeffandnicole]

If moving regulations are anything like parking violations, New Yorkers will do what they feel they can get away with, and not do what they feel they can't. It doesn't matter whether the number is 25 or 30, although changing it might provide the excuse for increased enforcement that, if applied broadly and consistently enough, would be the real deterring factor.

For example, double parking carries a much stiffer penalty than failing to move your car during street cleaning. However, people universally choose to double park rather than leave their car in the street cleaning zone, because they will receive a ticket for the latter much more certainly than for the former. By the same token, many legal parking spaces, such as at certain pedestrian ramps, will go almost completely unused because the police are very likely to issue an erroneous ticket for them.

In other words, there's what's legal, and then there's "accepted practice". All that needs to be done is to move fast driving out of the second category. It's eminently conceivable, as many other ingrained aspects of NYC culture seem to have gone by the wayside recently, but whether it will actually occur in the case of speeding remains to be seen.

Agreed.  Whenever there's speed limit changes like this, people suddenly act as if the law will be enforced 100%.  If the speed limit was 30, and traffic was so jammed that traffic would never go 30 mph, then there'll simply be more of the same at 25 mph.  If other streets were more wide open, if police weren't stopping people doing 31, chances are they're not going to stop them doing 26. 

It's hardly a money making scheme as many people put it.  There's enough existing laws out there the police can enforce if they wanted to do that.

[NE2]

If everyone is going the same speed, no matter if it's 55, 70, or 90 in good conditions, it's a lot safer than if half the cars are doing 70-80 and the rest are going 50-55.

Lolwut. Try going 55 on a surface road in Manhattan without being a black duck.

[cl94]

If everyone is going the same speed, no matter if it's 55, 70, or 90 in good conditions, it's a lot safer than if half the cars are doing 70-80 and the rest are going 50-55.

Lolwut. Try going 55 on a surface road in Manhattan without being a black duck.

I meant the expressways/parkways

[roadman65]

What difference is that going to make.  No one does the 30 anyhow. When I used to drive through the city, even though I never payed attention to the speedometer, I went as fast as the flow which I remember had to be going well over that.

The avenues in Manhattan you wanted to go as fast as you can so you can make the most amount of lights.  The streets on the other hand, you are always at a standstill and if a truck double parks to make a delivery that adds to your wait time.  Either way you can't do the 30. 

In the other boroughs I am sure its like anywhere else where the 85 percentile does 10-15 miles over the posted limit.

[cl94]

What difference is that going to make.  No one does the 30 anyhow. When I used to drive through the city, even though I never payed attention to the speedometer, I went as fast as the flow which I remember had to be going well over that.

The avenues in Manhattan you wanted to go as fast as you can so you can make the most amount of lights.  The streets on the other hand, you are always at a standstill and if a truck double parks to make a delivery that adds to your wait time.  Either way you can't do the 30. 

In the other boroughs I am sure its like anywhere else where the 85 percentile does 10-15 miles over the posted limit.

I was gonna say...people go as fast as they can go. Unless you're doing something dangerous, it's actually advantageous for traffic flow for people to be moving faster. NYPD doesn't give a damn unless you're in a school zone or a "slow zone" because there's just too much traffic and the streets are all well over capacity.

From spending a lot of time in Park Slope, I can tell you that 8th Avenue and Prospect Park West can be FAST, as they're both one-way streets with a green wave. 4th Avenue has a green wave in the peak direction and it can be the same way at times.

[NE2]

Unless you're doing something dangerous, it's actually advantageous for traffic flow for people to be moving faster.

When 2/3 of the people don't drive, those who do can get fucked.

[empirestate]

If everyone is going the same speed, no matter if it's 55, 70, or 90 in good conditions, it's a lot safer than if half the cars are doing 70-80 and the rest are going 50-55.

Lolwut. Try going 55 on a surface road in Manhattan without being a black duck.

I meant the expressways/parkways

The 25mph limit won't apply to those.

To make another point, it's not so important what numerical speed people reach as they drive around, it's that they try to get from one obstacle to the next as fast as possible. When you listen to much of the traffic going down a residential block like mine, you'll hear an amount of engine acceleration far out of scale to what you should need to get from the beginning of the block to the next stop sign. Already, it's unlikely that very many vehicles are even attaining 30mph on the block, but they certainly do try, yet for no real gain. People will wait for a line of oncoming traffic before making a left turn, yet will not wait for oncoming pedestrians, even though the consequences are much more dire for both parties should the pedestrian be struck. Priorities, in short, are misplaced.

[Duke87]

My question, unaddressed in what I read–how will this affect surfing the green light wave uptown and down?

I've heard that the city plans to actually go about retiming signals in order to account for the change. Not that that means anything outside of Manhattan avenues since this is already the city of "Signal coordination? What's that?"


As for the speed limit reduction itself, I keep wanting to have an aneurism every time I read things like this:

Trottenberg said last year 291 people died in New York City in traffic-related accidents. She said research shows even a five mile per hour reduction in speed will make a difference.

"When you lower the speed limit from 30 to 25, if there's a collision, you cut in half the chances it will result in a fatality,"  Trottenberg said Thursday.

Trottenberg without blinking goes from citing a completely true fact about speed, to talking about speed limits. It's genius from a propaganda perspective since the vast majority of idiots won't notice or realize there's anything funny. But for those of us who are paying attention we will note that "speed" and "speed limit" are not the same thing and it is a huge logical fallacy to conflate the two.

Yes, reducing speed increases safety. But this policy hinges on the assumption that reducing the speed limit equals reducing speed... an assumption which, unfortunately for the idea of "Vision Zero", is a myth that has been debunked repeatedly. Drivers, for the most part, will drive the speed they are comfortable driving based on conditions, regardless of what number you put on a sign. A few drivers who compulsively obey speed limits will slow down, but most won't and because of this lowering the limit actually reduces safety since people driving at different speeds is more likely to cause an accident than everyone driving at the same high speed. Predictability equals safety. This is basically the same reason why states that have been raising their speed limits have seen no ill effect. Gridlock Sam gets it:

But will the reduced speed limit actually change traffic patterns in the city?

Sam Schwartz, the former traffic commissioner known as Gridlock Sam, told us, essentially, no.

For one thing, posting signs has been shown to have little effect on driver behavior.

If the city wants to slow people down they need to implement traffic calming measures, not just change a bunch of signs.

[Pete from Boston]

I would bet real money that most New York drivers currently do not know what the speed limit is to begun with.  It is one of those universal concepts–like car ownership–that is fundamentally different in practice in New York than in the rest of the country.

[Duke87]

I would bet real money that most New York drivers currently do not know what the speed limit is to begun with.

When I mentioned to my father that the speed limit was being lowered to 25, his response was "Huh? Hasn't it always been 25?".

Soooo.... yeah.

[SidS1045]

I would bet real money that most New York drivers currently do not know what the speed limit is to begun with.  It is one of those universal concepts–like car ownership–that is fundamentally different in practice in New York than in the rest of the country.

They'll know soon enough.  According to today's New York Times, all main roads which enter NYC already have new signs posted:  "NYC LAW - SPEED LIMIT 25 - UNLESS OTHERWISE POSTED."  More signs are being produced at the NYCDOT sign shop in Maspeth.

[cl94]

I would bet real money that most New York drivers currently do not know what the speed limit is to begun with.  It is one of those universal concepts–like car ownership–that is fundamentally different in practice in New York than in the rest of the country.

They'll know soon enough.  According to today's New York Times, all main roads which enter NYC already have new signs posted:  "NYC LAW - SPEED LIMIT 25 - UNLESS OTHERWISE POSTED."  More signs are being produced at the NYCDOT sign shop in Maspeth.

Yeah, and all the old signs (identical except for the number) were in the same places. People still didn't know what it was. General rule down there is go as fast as traffic conditions allow (as one is never alone on the streets).

[roadman65]

I would bet real money that most New York drivers currently do not know what the speed limit is to begun with.

When I mentioned to my father that the speed limit was being lowered to 25, his response was "Huh? Hasn't it always been 25?".

Soooo.... yeah.

That is everywhere.  If you ask people who drive on I-4 in Orlando, I bet over 90 percent do not know where the 55 zone is, the 60 mph zone (heck I wonder if anyone noticed that FDOT has a 60 zone), the 65 mph zone, and that 70 mph exists way outside the Orlando metro area.

[Brian556]

quote from roadman65

That is everywhere.  If you ask people who drive on I-4 in Orlando, I bet over 90 percent do not know where the 55 zone is, the 60 mph zone (heck I wonder if anyone noticed that FDOT has a 60 zone), the 65 mph zone, and that 70 mph exists way outside the Orlando metro area.

How are they supposed to know, when it dynamic?

When I was there, they had it set to 50 for no reason when traffic was light and there was no rain. Thankfully, everybody had enough balls to ignore it and do 65.

[roadman65]

quote from roadman65

That is everywhere.  If you ask people who drive on I-4 in Orlando, I bet over 90 percent do not know where the 55 zone is, the 60 mph zone (heck I wonder if anyone noticed that FDOT has a 60 zone), the 65 mph zone, and that 70 mph exists way outside the Orlando metro area.

How are they supposed to know, when it dynamic?

When I was there, they had it set to 50 for no reason when traffic was light and there was no rain. Thankfully, everybody had enough balls to ignore it and do 65.

Exactly!  That whole  50 zone is ridiculous as traffic moves much more free than the busy tourist area does, yet around Disney the speed limit is either 60 or 65 where you can just barely do 55.  Here you can do 70 mph with so much ease and FDOT has the NJ Turnpike type of speed limit set up, but will not go higher than 50 no matter how little or how much traffic is using the interstate.

[Pete from Boston]

I would bet real money that most New York drivers currently do not know what the speed limit is to begun with.  It is one of those universal concepts–like car ownership–that is fundamentally different in practice in New York than in the rest of the country.

They'll know soon enough.  According to today's New York Times, all main roads which enter NYC already have new signs posted:  "NYC LAW - SPEED LIMIT 25 - UNLESS OTHERWISE POSTED."  More signs are being produced at the NYCDOT sign shop in Maspeth.

I saw a Times photo of those in the shop yesterday.  The accompanying article mentioned that there's no real plan to crack down on speeders, just a desire to, over the years, change the speeding culture or something.  I'm not holding my breath.

[vdeane]

If they were serious about saving lives rather than crusading against cars, they'd have pedestrians cross streets during all-ped phases to eliminate the conflict with turning traffic and crack down on jaywalking.  This would also have the side effect of reducing red light running by making it possible for traffic to actually make their turns when the light is green.

[cpzilliacus]

If they were serious about saving lives rather than crusading against cars, they'd have pedestrians cross streets during all-ped phases to eliminate the conflict with turning traffic and crack down on jaywalking.  This would also have the side effect of reducing red light running by making it possible for traffic to actually make their turns when the light is green.

I really like the Barnes Dance at intersections where the volumes of pedestrian traffic justifies it. 

[cl94]

If they were serious about saving lives rather than crusading against cars, they'd have pedestrians cross streets during all-ped phases to eliminate the conflict with turning traffic and crack down on jaywalking.  This would also have the side effect of reducing red light running by making it possible for traffic to actually make their turns when the light is green.

I really like the Barnes Dance at intersections where the volumes of pedestrian traffic justifies it.

Yeah. It works really well on Yonge and Dundas Streets at Dundas Square in Toronto.

[empirestate]

If they were serious about saving lives rather than crusading against cars, they'd have pedestrians cross streets during all-ped phases to eliminate the conflict with turning traffic and crack down on jaywalking.  This would also have the side effect of reducing red light running by making it possible for traffic to actually make their turns when the light is green.

It's true that there's far, far more that could be, and needs to be done, to improve the vehicle/pedestrian interface. And there's some that's actually underway, with traffic calming measures popping up in many places, but not nearly at a scale that will have a huge effect. The city needs a comprehensive overhaul of its physical highway plant, particularly in its Moses-era greenway corridors where intersections are dangerously overpowered, and, yes, of its signal phase practices. And it needs an overhaul of its driving mentality, which should be perfectly attainable if we only knew how to do it on purpose. After all, the subway mentality was overhauled from "it's dirty and dangerous" to "it's clean and safe, though we do get bent out of shape over minor disruptions to its service". And the Times Square mentality got overhauled from "fake weed and cheap hos" to "Disneyland". So clearly, it's possible–and would be possible whether or not the speed limit changed, I should add.

But to frame it as a choice of anti-cars versus pro-lives seems disingenuous, as it suggests an animus far more concerted than most governments are capable of exercising. Real life just isn't that black-and-white.