NYC speed limit lowered from 30 to 25

[vdeane]

The problem with Vision Zero is that it exclusively targets cars.  It's not hard to read something in to that.  There are a zillion things pedestrians can do to lower the pedestrian death rate, but just mentioning them seems to be taboo these days.

[Pete from Boston]

The problem with Vision Zero is that it exclusively targets cars.  It's not hard to read something in to that.  There are a zillion things pedestrians can do to lower the pedestrian death rate, but just mentioning them seems to be taboo these days.

Regardless, there will always be the compelling arguments that motorists own a disproportional share of the responsibility because their actions are disproportionately more potentially deadly than a pedestrian, and the fact that they are in the minority in New York. So the burden of responsibility will always be placed more heavily on them.

[NE2]

Pedestrians need to stop wearing short skirts.

[odditude]

Pedestrians need to stop wearing short skirts.

Blasphemer!

[vdeane]

The problem with Vision Zero is that it exclusively targets cars.  It's not hard to read something in to that.  There are a zillion things pedestrians can do to lower the pedestrian death rate, but just mentioning them seems to be taboo these days.

Regardless, there will always be the compelling arguments that motorists own a disproportional share of the responsibility because their actions are disproportionately more potentially deadly than a pedestrian, and the fact that they are in the minority in New York. So the burden of responsibility will always be placed more heavily on them.

In boating the rules are that more maneuverable vehicles yield to less maneuverable vehicles.  Not asking pedestrians to do common sense things like "look both ways before crossing the street" and "don't jaywalk" strikes me as like forcing ocean liners to swerve around jet skis.

Pedestrians need to stop wearing short skirts.

NEVER!  Short skirts (especially with boots and tights) make the world go round!

[Duke87]

Pedestrians need to stop wearing short skirts.

And bridge inspectors need to stop being subject to gravity. Saying they should be tied off when working at elevation so they don't fall is blaming the victim!

The important distinction between "short skirts" and construction safety or pedestrian safety is that in the former case we are talking about deliberate assault while in the latter case we are talking about accidents. If a pedestrian gets hit by a car it is most likely because the driver did not see them. This could be because the driver did something reckless... or it could be because the pedestrian did something reckless. If I walk out from between two parked cars in the middle of the block and run into the street without looking (something New Yorkers have been known to do!), is it really fair to say it's not my fault if I get hit?

Nonetheless I do think that this "can't blame the victim" form of political correctness is part of why adjusting pedestrian behavior isn't the focus. We tend to want to be sympathetic with the person who gets hit even if objectively it's their own damn fault. Also add in that every New Yorker is a pedestrian but the majority aren't drivers and you are indeed seeing a streak of always blame the driver because the majority must rule the minority to be at fault.



Even still, that is not so much the problem I (at least) have with the speed limit drop. Saying traffic should slow down for safety is a sound argument. But saying lowering the speed limit slows traffic down is a false equivalency. Nobody is going to slow down just because the city changes a bunch of signs. It's a lip service maneuver more than a serious way of tackling the problem.

[NE2]

Common sense says don't operate heavy machinery if you're not able to avoid crashing it.

[cl94]

Common sense says don't operate heavy machinery if you're not able to avoid crashing it.

But there are also a boatload of dumb pedestrians. The locals aren't the problem. It's the damn tourists walking/driving around that cause many of the issues.

[NE2]

Common sense says don't operate heavy machinery if you're not able to avoid crashing it, even into 'dumb pedestrians'.

[Brandon]

Common sense says don't operate heavy machinery if you're not able to avoid crashing it.

Common sense also says not to run under the operator's bucket in his blind spot.

[Brandon]

Common sense says don't operate heavy machinery if you're not able to avoid crashing it, even into 'dumb pedestrians'.

Try telling that to the engineer of a locomotive who cannot stop for almost a mile.  We have at least one of these every week around Chicagoland.

[empirestate]

The problem with Vision Zero is that it exclusively targets cars.  It's not hard to read something in to that.  There are a zillion things pedestrians can do to lower the pedestrian death rate, but just mentioning them seems to be taboo these days.

Without doubt, pedestrians bear some of the responsibility. But my point is that there's a difference between a program that disproportionately affects motor vehicles, whether by error or by necessity, and one that is based on outright animus towards them, as a "crusade against cars" would be. Perhaps you meant that more figuratively than I took it, but that's a danger in persuasive writing I suppose.

As to pedestrian violations contributing to accidents, I have recently found myself committing more violations that I used to, simply because it gives me options to avoid conflicts with vehicles. If I cross only at the right time and place, which I endeavored to do for quite some time, I invariably come into conflict with turning, speeding, inattentive traffic–well, traffic in general–because green lights and walk signals tend to appear at the same time. However, by crossing mid-block, away from intersections and points of conflict, I can often choose to cross when there is observably no oncoming traffic from any direction. And by crossing during a don't walk phase, I can have much greater confidence that a turning vehicle that might pose danger isn't going to attempt it at this moment.

So this tends to indicate that intersection and signal redesign needs to be a major part of the program, and the literature suggests that it will be (intersection at least; not so sure about signal).

[vdeane]

There's certainly a lot of difference between crossing mid-block or jaywalking after checking to make sure traffic won't conflict and someone feeling like they should be able to just stroll about whenever regardless of what's going on with traffic just because they're a pedestrian.  And there certainly aren't many people who outright want to ban cars (though there are a few) more so than reduce driving and change the car culture that developed (which can be good, but I tend to disagree with methods that feel like they're punishing drivers).

Common sense says don't operate heavy machinery if you're not able to avoid crashing it, even into 'dumb pedestrians'.

Try telling that to the engineer of a locomotive who cannot stop for almost a mile.  We have at least one of these every week around Chicagoland.

Yeah, I was wondering if NE2 would also apply that logic to a train.

[NE2]

Trains are operated by trained professionals on private right-of-way. Do you really want to go there?

[cl94]

Trains are operated by trained professionals on private right-of-way. Do you really want to go there?

Private ROW that is easily accessible. People are hit by trains quite often in New York.

[NE2]

Not what I'm saying. Do you want to restrict your driving to private ROW?

[Brandon]

Not what I'm saying. Do you want to restrict your driving to private ROW?

Want to account for buses hitting pedestrians as well?  And there's still streetcar tracks on public ROW in parts of the US and Canada.  Your argument is straw.

[NE2]

Bus drivers never drive shittily.

[Alps]

Bus drivers never drive shittily.

Neither do bicyclists.

[NE2]

And cyclists kill pedestrians how often? Once? Fuck off.

[Brandon]

Bus drivers never drive shittily.

Riiiiiiiiight.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/01/18/pedestrian-hit-by-bus-in-streeterville/
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-08/news/chi-megabus-hits-pedestrian-in-west-loop-20120807_1_megabus-accident-overpass-pillar-bus-line
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-01-06/news/chi-person-hit-by-cta-bus-20120106_1_cta-bus-stroger-hospital-condition
http://www.nbcchicago.com/traffic/transit/CTA-Bus-Clips-Pedestrian-136803633.html

Take your pick of this small sample of articles.

[empirestate]

There's certainly a lot of difference between crossing mid-block or jaywalking after checking to make sure traffic won't conflict and someone feeling like they should be able to just stroll about whenever regardless of what's going on with traffic just because they're a pedestrian.  And there certainly aren't many people who outright want to ban cars (though there are a few) more so than reduce driving and change the car culture that developed (which can be good, but I tend to disagree with methods that feel like they're punishing drivers).

Agreed about the pedestrians, although I don't think people stroll around just because they're a pedestrian, but because a) they're not paying attention, or b) they're New Yorkers and it's their duty/right to be in a hurry at all times, even (especially?) if it actually makes their trip take longer.

I would also oppose measures that arbitrarily punish drivers, but I don't share the observation that that's going on, particularly. Nothing is being asked of drivers that wasn't already their obligation. Right now the culture is like "ugh, stupid pedestrian in the crosswalk made me have to stop at the stop sign!" when it needs to be "there's a stop sign; I'll stop at it. Then I'll see if there are any pedestrians around."

[cl94]

There's certainly a lot of difference between crossing mid-block or jaywalking after checking to make sure traffic won't conflict and someone feeling like they should be able to just stroll about whenever regardless of what's going on with traffic just because they're a pedestrian.  And there certainly aren't many people who outright want to ban cars (though there are a few) more so than reduce driving and change the car culture that developed (which can be good, but I tend to disagree with methods that feel like they're punishing drivers).

Agreed about the pedestrians, although I don't think people stroll around just because they're a pedestrian, but because a) they're not paying attention, or b) they're New Yorkers and it's their duty/right to be in a hurry at all times, even (especially?) if it actually makes their trip take longer.

I would also oppose measures that arbitrarily punish drivers, but I don't share the observation that that's going on, particularly. Nothing is being asked of drivers that wasn't already their obligation. Right now the culture is like "ugh, stupid pedestrian in the crosswalk made me have to stop at the stop sign!" when it needs to be "there's a stop sign; I'll stop at it. Then I'll see if there are any pedestrians around."

Drivers in the eastern half of the state usually stop at stop signs or red lights regardless. Certainly isn't Buffalo, where people think that a right on red has priority over every other movement and stop signs with a white outline are optional.

[empirestate]

Drivers in the eastern half of the state usually stop at stop signs or red lights regardless. Certainly isn't Buffalo, where people think that a right on red has priority over every other movement and stop signs with a white outline are optional.

Wait, are we talking about the southern half of the eastern half of the state, or the other half of the same half? I was only talking about the half of the state that NYC is in; and even then, not about that whole half, nor even the whole of the half half, but only that fraction of the hemi-half that directly comprises the five boroughs.