NE governors closing roads

[hbelkins]

Good idea? Bad idea? Prudent use of executive orders or overreaction and an unnecessary infringement on freedom to travel?

[corco]

We should never evaluate things by results instead of process, but it's going to be really hard to do that here.

If things work out as forecasted, it's probably a good idea because it will save taxpayer dollars in emergency response- if we wanted to be really fair about it, you could say something like "travel at your own risk, but you have to foot the entire bill for emergency response if you end up stranded" but that's politically dicey too- there's really no way to win.

[6a]

Ohio has three levels of snow emergency, with level 3 banning travel, but it's handled by the county sheriff.  Ours stated once he would never declare one because his people have to be out there too, but some of the rural counties have done so.  And I think that's where I draw the distinction in my head - in a city one can expect more access to goods and services, so maybe a travel ban is unnecessary.  A more rural area might be more of a hazard to the public since you running off the road is more dangerous to both you and the people coming to get you.

That said, all the plows in the world don't help here when it snows at rush hour and they pull the trucks off the road rather than having them sit on the freeway.

[corco]

Wyoming would close intercity roads all the time unless you could get a gate pass (which you'd call the sheriff with a good excuse and then you could drive behind the plow on their next pass)- I remember going days with I-80 and 287 closed in and out of Laramie and the grocery stores not having much food on the shelves.

Typically they waited until it was really bad though- I left to go to Cheyenne once about 5 minutes before the freeway closed (I heard after I left) and that was the scariest drive I've ever had by far (dark, snow coming down hard, windy- couldn't see more than ten feet n front of you or where the road ended- it was Laramie to Cheyenne at 15 MPH and even then I may have been going too fast) and I've driven in some pretty bad conditions.

[Mergingtraffic]

I think it's a good idea, it keeps the roads open for emergency vehicles and the plows can plow on open roads.

I do find myself looking at the VMSs and the traffic cams in my state of CT via their website's interactive map.  Cool to see the roads empty and once inawhile i see a lone truck driving. 

Also, the local station said a truck driver got stuck on I-84 in Waterbury bc of a 5 foot snow drift. 

I think back to that famous picture of a lone truck on I-10 in Louisianna hanging off one of the bridges with Katrina. 

[KEVIN_224]

http://www.ct.gov/dot/cwp/view.asp?a=2354&Q=290242

Governor Dannell P. Malloy (D-CT) has a complete statewide ban in effect and a state of emergency was already declared. Bradley International (BDL) is also closed until further notice. Only essential vehicles are allowed on the interstates and state highways.

At present, I can't even see out of my windows to my left unless I stand up. New Britain, CT has at least 17 inches of snow. There was none as recently as this time yesterday.

[D-Dey65]

I'm still looking for camera shots of the Long Island Expressway.

[cpzilliacus]

Good idea? Bad idea? Prudent use of executive orders or overreaction and an unnecessary infringement on freedom to travel?

Good idea, based on what I have seen - and heard (from friends in southeast New Hampshire).

Problem is people driving in this type of storm tend to get stuck, which then hampers snow clearing operations.

[empirestate]

I'm still looking for camera shots of the Long Island Expressway.

http://www.sigalert.com/Map.asp#lat=40.85846&lon=-72.8443&z=0

Check out the camera at N. Ocean Avenue in Patchogue: [image link removed]

[papaT10932]

Good idea? Bad idea? Prudent use of executive orders or overreaction and an unnecessary infringement on freedom to travel?

I don't think  banning driving is an infringement on one's freedom to travel. That's what feet are for.

[D-Dey65]

Check out the camera at N. Ocean Avenue in Patchogue:

Okay, thanks. I see that's completely closed.


Hey, I also see that link has the un-built Northern Brookhaven Bypass that was supposed to be designated Suffolk County Road 26 that the North Shore anti-highway zealots brag about thwarting because they thought it was going to bring suburban sprawl, only to find they have suburban sprawl regardless of whether the road was built or not.

[empirestate]

Good idea? Bad idea? Prudent use of executive orders or overreaction and an unnecessary infringement on freedom to travel?

I don't think  banning driving is an infringement on one's freedom to travel. That's what feet are for.

There is a difference between having the freedom to do something, and having that freedom provided for without exception by an outside entity such as the government. We have the freedom of religion, but the government doesn't build churches. We have the freedom of speech, but the government doesn't schedule each of us a 30-minute slot every Tuesday at the town park.

Also, I'm not sure the freedom to travel is enumerated specifically enough that the government has a duty to maintain it, at least above its duty to provide for our safety.

[vdeane]

Good idea? Bad idea? Prudent use of executive orders or overreaction and an unnecessary infringement on freedom to travel?

I don't think  banning driving is an infringement on one's freedom to travel. That's what feet are for.

I was unaware that I'm able to walk faster than about 5mph.  Most places are unreachable at such low speeds.  Up here in Potsdam I can't even get to WalMart (safely, at least - some people don't mind walking on major US routes through corn fields in the middle of the night, apparently) without a car.

[tdindy88]

Wyoming would close intercity roads all the time unless you could get a gate pass (which you'd call the sheriff with a good excuse and then you could drive behind the plow on their next pass)- I remember going days with I-80 and 287 closed in and out of Laramie and the grocery stores not having much food on the shelves.

Typically they waited until it was really bad though- I left to go to Cheyenne once about 5 minutes before the freeway closed (I heard after I left) and that was the scariest drive I've ever had by far (dark, snow coming down hard, windy- couldn't see more than ten feet n front of you or where the road ended- it was Laramie to Cheyenne at 15 MPH and even then I may have been going too fast) and I've driven in some pretty bad conditions.

I knew someone who was stationed in Cheyenne, I forget where and with what branch, and he'd tell me stories of how they were sent out onto highways during snowstorms in that part of Wyoming getting stranded motorists and that it was basically a continous operation during the heart of the storm. He made it sound like something that he and his other cohorts didn't enjoy doing, they did it with no argument, but they would be mad at the motorists afterwards, putting themselves in that position where the military had to go out and save them when they could have been doing something else (not sure what that would have been however, in a snowstorm I'd imagine there's not a lot you could do.)

[hbelkins]

In Kentucky, I have navigated some pretty good snowstorms in years past. We had more than two feet of snow on the ground on Valentine's Day in either 1985 or 1986. I had no trouble getting around, driving an Old Cutlass with rear-wheel drive and studded snow tires.

In March 1993, we had a blizzard and ended up with nearly two feet of snow on the ground. The SEC basketball tournament was being played at Rupp Arena but the snow didn't keep UK fans from filling the arena when the Cats played. I had no trouble getting around in a Chevy S-10 Blazer.

In 1994, we had a huge snowstorm which was followed by subzero temperatures. The governor closed the interstates (but not the parkways, nor the surface highways). Again, I had no trouble getting anywhere I needed to go in my S-10 Blazer.

I have been told by KYTC personnel that the Toyota plant in Georgetown was not happy with the decision to close the interstates, and made it known that should it ever happen again, there would be a strong likelihood that the factory would be shut down and operations moved elsewhere. Whether coincidental or not, our interstates have never been ordered closed again.

For the record, I disagree with the decisions of the New England governors. I think people are generally smart enough to know if they can travel or not. Lots of people won't travel in snowstorms anyway and traffic is usually much lighter. If I was traveling in that area and wasn't allowed to leave, I'd be pissed.

[KEVIN_224]

Cars are still occasionally driving past my home here in central CT, now with partial sunshine! Massachusetts was supposed to lift their ban at 4 PM ET.

[corco]

For the record, I disagree with the decisions of the New England governors. I think people are generally smart enough to know if they can travel or not. Lots of people won't travel in snowstorms anyway and traffic is usually much lighter. If I was traveling in that area and wasn't allowed to leave, I'd be pissed.

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on those people who do opt to get travel, get stuck, and cost taxpayer dollars to get un-stranded? Even if you make them pay the bill for labor or whatever, it still slows down clearing the road because road crews are focused on pulling idiots out of the ditch instead of clearing the road.

For the record, I don't know what a good solution is- making executive orders for the dumbest common denominator seems like a bad idea, but at the same time it's a huge efficiency boost in terms of getting the roads accessible again and a lot cheaper for everyone if they just shut down travel.

I'd tend to think it's a threshold thing- in Wyoming, even where most were very very libertarian, I don't remember anybody complaining about the roads being closed because they really needed to be closed when they were closed. It doesn't sound like that's what happened in Kentucky.

[empirestate]

For the record, I disagree with the decisions of the New England governors. I think people are generally smart enough to know if they can travel or not. Lots of people won't travel in snowstorms anyway and traffic is usually much lighter. If I was traveling in that area and wasn't allowed to leave, I'd be pissed.

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on those people who do opt to get travel, get stuck, and cost taxpayer dollars to get un-stranded? Even if you make them pay the bill for labor or whatever, it still slows down clearing the road because road crews are focused on pulling idiots out of the ditch instead of clearing the road.

For the record, I don't know what a good solution is- making executive orders for the dumbest common denominator seems like a bad idea, but at the same time it's a huge efficiency boost in terms of getting the roads accessible again and a lot cheaper for everyone if they just shut down travel.

I'd tend to think it's a threshold thing- in Wyoming, even where most were very very libertarian, I don't remember anybody complaining about the roads being closed because they really needed to be closed when they were closed. It doesn't sound like that's what happened in Kentucky.

Isn't that the point of a travel ban? I don't think it's entirely to do with actually prohibiting travel, but rather with reducing the government's obligation toward those who do. (In CT, for example, you see the signs all the time: "Road closed-state liability limited".)

What, in fact, are the enforcement practices on a travel ban? Anybody here ever been called out for violating one?

[Duke87]

The subway in New York managed to keep running through the night last night with only minor disruptions. After being out at a party last night I got home at around 10:30 and the train was empty, but running. Streets, similarly, were empty but passable. But then, NYC only got 8 inches. Most of New England saw 2 feet or more. Metro-North suspended service at 10 PM last night, but restored most of it this morning. It's all back except for the New Haven line north of Stamford now.

Looking at the traffic cams for Connecticut, it seems that things get worse as you head north and east. My parents in Stamford say they got about a foot and I-95 is open and clear there. Up in Milford it's still partially blocked and east of New Haven it's still closed.

[hbelkins]

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on those people who do opt to get travel, get stuck, and cost taxpayer dollars to get un-stranded? Even if you make them pay the bill for labor or whatever, it still slows down clearing the road because road crews are focused on pulling idiots out of the ditch instead of clearing the road.

Around here, in general, road crews don't pull people out of the ditch. That's left to the private towing companies.

[empirestate]

The subway in New York managed to keep running through the night last night with only minor disruptions. After being out at a party last night I got home at around 10:30 and the train was empty, but running. Streets, similarly, were empty but passable. But then, NYC only got 8 inches. Most of New England saw 2 feet or more. Metro-North suspended service at 10 PM last night, but restored most of it this morning. It's all back except for the New Haven line north of Stamford now.

It never got all that bad in NYC, and the worst of it was in the wee hours anyway. In addition, I noticed a very conscientious effort from the people in my neighborhood, as well as city crews, at keeping sidewalks, driveways and roads clear. Folks were at it well into Friday night, and back in action early this morning.

[corco]

Around here, in general, road crews don't pull people out of the ditch. That's left to the private towing companies.

Then maybe that's the threshold for closure- when the roads closed in Wyoming, there was no way Joe Tow Truck was going to risk their own life to come get you- if you got stuck you weren't getting out unless you were in the way of a road crew- it wasn't a put some studs/chains on and drive slow and you'll be okay type of bad, it was a "holy crap where is the edge of the road this is a whiteout ohhhhh no it's a random 5 foot snow drift in the middle of the highway" bad. When I left to go to Cheyenne that day right before the freeway closed, I did make it safely, but I'd bet 30% of the time I end up stuck, and I've never gotten myself stuck. A good portion of me not driving myself off the road was sheer luck, which tells me that I probably shouldn't have been allowed to be on it.

(Side argument pro-closure: When I left Laramie, I knew it was going to be bad but had no idea quite how bad it was going to be- I know trusting the government to make those calls isn't really a desirable thing, but in a case like that, they are more likely to know what's up than the average citizen)

In general, 2 feet of snow wouldn't warrant a highway closure because as you said you can just throw some studs/chains on, drive slow, and get there eventually- 2 feet of snow + 50 MPH winds would warrant a highway closure.

I would be against what it sounds like was a threshold for road closure in Kentucky too- if you can put studs on and drive slow, that's just part of winter. Without being in New England, I don't know if that was the case there or if the general skill level:weather ratio of that area warranted it.

The closures in Wyoming always happened when the road was literally impassable by a regular car- no amount of skill could make it passable. A car just can't get over a three foot snow drift. My guess would be that since a heck of a lot more people live in New England than Wyoming, the number of cars on the interstate would have been greater, which means more accidents and less chance that the road is passable since an accident renders a road impassable. Even if the road is good enough that some folks could get through safely, they wouldn't be able to because of the idiots that got themselves into an accident, clogging up the road. I'm not sure if New England hit that threshold, but if it did then a closure makes sense. Unfortunately there's no way to know without trying both scenarios.

What, in fact, are the enforcement practices on a travel ban? Anybody here ever been called out for violating one?

In Wyoming things were signed on the way out of town, usually with a sheriff sitting at the gate, and then the road crews would call in if they saw any violators. I have no idea how that would work in an urban area- maybe put a sheriff at every interchange? In Wyoming you could get a gate pass if there was an absolute emergency that required you to leave town- you'd call sheriff and they would let you go behind the next plow- but you had to have a really really good reason with documentable proof ("I'm passing through and I need to get out of town" is not a good reason- "my father is in a hospital bed in Cheyenne and he is dying and I won't see him unless I get there" is a good reason) and it's not something that to my knowledge is advertised because they really don't want people doing it.

[cpzilliacus]

Most (major) highways in the United States are under the control of state governments or political subdivisions of state governments. 

If the governor of a state makes an informed decision that the state cannot keep it in safely passable condition, even if that is due to a snowstorm, then I believe the governor has the right and the power to close it.   

I do not see this as being much different from a state posting a highway bridge with weight limits, or outright closure if the bridge is deemed to be at risk of failure. 

Another analogy - states close highways if they have to hang steel for a new overpass.  These operations are usually done when the traveling public is likely to be minimally inconvenienced, but there are impacts.  Just this past week, I happened to be driving I-95 in Prince George's County, Maryland late at night when  the northbound lanes were subject to a 30 minute total shutdown for the contractor to hang steel stringers for a bridge associated with the Md. 200 Contract D/E project.  Even in the middle of the night, in February, with plenty of advance warning, the resulting queue of traffic was miles long.

[hbelkins]

Had a meeting Thursday with some of my counterparts from the eastern part of the state, and one of the subjects that came up was, who has the authority to close a state highway, the state police or the highway department?

Some in KYTC make the assertion that the Kentucky State Police have no authority to close a state highway. I have never heard a definitive answer to this question and wouldn't know where to ask, since KSP would probably claim it has the authority and KYTC might not want to make a black-and-white declaration.

Of course if a governor orders a road closed, it becomes a moot point, but this would be a decent topic of discussion.

[Duke87]

In general, 2 feet of snow wouldn't warrant a highway closure because as you said you can just throw some studs/chains on, drive slow, and get there eventually

See, right there is a key difference between Wyoming and New England: people in New England have no concept of adding something to their tires for better traction. Nobody owns tire chains, and nobody would know how to put them on if they had them. The only vehicles you ever see sporting chains are maintenance trucks and sometimes buses. People in their cars either get enough traction with just their bare tires or they slip and slide.