What are your thoughts on School Zones?

[jeffandnicole]

It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past.  It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross.  Which strikes you as more efficient?  In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).

That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road.  There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all.  In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.

Then walk a flipping block over to the signal and then cross.  Don't be a dumbass and cross where it is impossible to get a good break in traffic.

Okay, here the signals are about every quarter mile.  A pedestrian probably walks about 4 mph.  So you're saying the pedestrian should walk 1/8 mile to the light, wait for the light, walk 1/8 mile back, say 6 minutes -- in order to save a driver 30 seconds waiting for a pedestrian to cross?  You think a driver's time is 12 times as valuable as a pedestrian's?

Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block?  Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?

Just walk the extra few minutes.  Most people I see walk across a roadway, not in a cross walk, wind up walking by the next intersection anyway where it would have been legal to cross.

[NE2]

Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block?  Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?

False equivalency, asshole.

Just walk the extra few minutes.  Most people I see walk across a roadway, not in a cross walk, wind up walking by the next intersection anyway where it would have been legal to cross.

It's usually legal to cross between intersections.

[kphoger]

It's usually legal to cross between intersections.

This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.

[NE2]

It's usually legal to cross between intersections.

This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.

Unless there's a crosswalk, of course. Which is generally true in a school zone.

[kphoger]

It's usually legal to cross between intersections.

This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.

Unless there's a crosswalk, of course. Which is generally true in a school zone.

And voilà!  We're back on topic!

[1995hoo]

It's usually legal to cross between intersections.

This is true; however, the pedestrian is then obligated by law to yield right of way to all vehicles on the roadway.

Unless there's a crosswalk, of course. Which is generally true in a school zone.

And voilà!  We're back on topic!

In my experience, sometimes a seemingly illogical "school zone" speed limit is posted due to a crosswalk even if the school itself isn't directly adjacent to the crosswalk's location. Back in the late 1990s when I worked in McLean, Virginia, I used to pass through a school zone on Westmoreland Street and I always wondered why. The overhead view linked below clarifies why. The crosswalk is at the center of the image and McLean High School is at the top left corner. Note the special access sidewalk leading to the school from the crosswalk. (I don't recall the cul-de-sac located just below and to the left of the crosswalk being there back then.) I haven't been on that street recently, but Google Street View shows the school zone sign as still being there (the standard "Speed Limit 25 When Flashing" style used in Northern Virginia). The crosswalk itself has been improved–there's now a pedestrian island in the center of the street.

http://binged.it/ZaKzHq

Point being, stuff like that is probably one reason why you sometimes see a "school zone" posted when it seems like there's no school around. In Fairfax County when I was a kid the rule was that elementary school students living within a one-mile radius of the school were not entitled to bus service unless there were special circumstances; for high school students the rule was a mile and a half (although I regularly walked two miles to high school just because I liked having the time to myself). On the other hand, I recall there was a crossing guard at one intersection I passed on the way to high school even though it wasn't a school zone.

[kkt]

Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block?  Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?

Straw man.  Nobody's talking about trespassing.

Just walk the extra few minutes.  Most people I see walk across a roadway, not in a cross walk, wind up walking by the next intersection anyway where it would have been legal to cross.

Nobody's talking about crossing midblock where there's no crosswalk.  Just at intersections where there's no traffic light.  These are legal crosswalks, whether there are painted lines or not.  Drivers are required to stop for pedestrians there, and required to drive slowly enough that they could see a pedestrian with a foot in the street.  It's incredibly self-centered to think that as a driver you should be able to endanger others' safety, ignore the speed limit, ignore the crosswalks, and expect others to walk many minutes out of their way just because you don't want to stop for half a minute.

[kphoger]

Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block?  Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?

Straw man.  Nobody's talking about trespassing.

And that's not even trespassing.  Unless they have a fence and/or signs, depending on the laws in your particular jurisdiction.  When I was a kid, I used to cut across peoples lots all the time.  Now I prefer to stick to the pavement, and the only lots I usually "trespass" on are business parking lots.

[Alps]

Just wondering...do you also cut thru people's yards to avoid walking around the block?  Is someone's privacy while sitting in their comfortably heated home as important as a pedestrians?

Straw man.  Nobody's talking about trespassing.

And that's not even trespassing.  Unless they have a fence and/or signs, depending on the laws in your particular jurisdiction.  When I was a kid, I used to cut across peoples lots all the time.  Now I prefer to stick to the pavement, and the only lots I usually "trespass" on are business parking lots.

Trespassing is entering private property without permission or business there. Your business isn't just "getting to the other side," either.

[NE2]

Trespassing is entering private property without permission or business there. Your business isn't just "getting to the other side," either.

Depends on the state. In some states you're allowed to enter and even hunt (!) if there are no signs prohibiting it.

[vdeane]

I'm guessing that's not true in NY, because when my Aunt and Uncle sold their house in Riga they explicitly put in the contract that themselves and a few others could still use the property for hunting (that said, they had a LOT of land; they could have created an entire neighborhood in their property if they wanted).

[kphoger]

Trespassing is entering private property without permission or business there. Your business isn't just "getting to the other side," either.

Depends on the state. In some states you're allowed to enter and even hunt (!) if there are no signs prohibiting it.

...which is exactly why I said "depending on the laws in your particular jurisdiction".  Thank you.

[mjb2002]

The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.

[formulanone]

No interfering speed limit signs should be placed along the school zone, in my opinion. In other words, don't put a "Speed Limit 40" sign in between a school zone. Also, the "End School Zone" sign needs to be more visible, But usually, you can just look for the school zone warning sign going the other direction...in most cases, they're either towering, or suspended above the road.

I got out of a ticket in a school zone once because of this; there was a "35 mph" sign roughly 300 feet before the End School Zone sign (which I honestly didn't see), but a cop located just after the speed limit sign, but a fair distance from the school entrance (from my heading). He waved me down, and said "you were going 28 in a school zone". I pointed out that I thought the 35 mph sign meant the school zone had just ended. He said, "no the school zone ends a little further down [points towards the sign ahead of us]...but since you were only just now going 28, I can see why you thought that. Okay, just watch your speed...[waves me off]"

Yes, I was lucky that day.

[vdeane]

The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.

That's what we do in NY.  I can't even recall a time where I've even seen an "end school zone" sign.

No interfering speed limit signs should be placed along the school zone, in my opinion. In other words, don't put a "Speed Limit 40" sign in between a school zone. Also, the "End School Zone" sign needs to be more visible, But usually, you can just look for the school zone warning sign going the other direction...in most cases, they're either towering, or suspended above the road.

I got out of a ticket in a school zone once because of this; there was a "35 mph" sign roughly 300 feet before the End School Zone sign (which I honestly didn't see), but a cop located just after the speed limit sign, but a fair distance from the school entrance (from my heading). He waved me down, and said "you were going 28 in a school zone". I pointed out that I thought the 35 mph sign meant the school zone had just ended. He said, "no the school zone ends a little further down [points towards the sign ahead of us]...but since you were only just now going 28, I can see why you thought that. Okay, just watch your speed...[waves me off]"

Yes, I was lucky that day.

Sounds like they're deliberately deceiving motorists to get speeding ticket revenue.

[kkt]

The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.

That's what they do in Seattle.  I'm surprised there isn't something about this is the Manual.

[kphoger]

The only real opinion I have about school zones is that the 'End School Zone' sign should be abolished and replaced with the year-long Speed Limit sign at each end of the school zone.

No interfering speed limit signs should be placed along the school zone, in my opinion. In other words, don't put a "Speed Limit 40" sign in between a school zone. Also, the "End School Zone" sign needs to be more visible, But usually, you can just look for the school zone warning sign going the other direction...in most cases, they're either towering, or suspended above the road.

I got out of a ticket in a school zone once because of this; there was a "35 mph" sign roughly 300 feet before the End School Zone sign (which I honestly didn't see), but a cop located just after the speed limit sign, but a fair distance from the school entrance (from my heading). He waved me down, and said "you were going 28 in a school zone". I pointed out that I thought the 35 mph sign meant the school zone had just ended. He said, "no the school zone ends a little further down [points towards the sign ahead of us]...but since you were only just now going 28, I can see why you thought that. Okay, just watch your speed...[waves me off]"

Yes, I was lucky that day.

Sounds like they're deliberately deceiving motorists to get speeding ticket revenue.

I would rather see both signs displayed at the end of the school zone.  That way, you know what the speed limit was before the school zone (especially handy if you've just pulled out from the school and never saw the previous speed limit sign) and have a definitive point at which you know you're no longer in the school zone.  However, the END sign should never be placed on the left side of the roadway, always on the right; and I agree about having no other speed limit signs along the zone, except perhaps a repetition of the school zone limit.

[roadfro]

Interesting that another regular speed limit sign would be placed inside a school zone. I've never seen this in Nevada. Usually, you will have the "end school zone" sign, and then a regular speed limit sign is posted either on the same post or just downstream of the end sign. In some cases, there is no end sign, but a regular speed limit sign designates a de facto end of the school zone where you can resume the speed as stated on the sign.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

My thoughts on school zones are simple.

1.  Speed limit in effect only when school is getting in and letting out.  NOT 24 hours, NOT "7am-5pm on school days." (I'm glaring at you, Iowa.)  ONLY when school is getting in and letting out.

3. 10-15mph under the normal speed limit.  There's a school zone in Maine somewhere, can't remember the highway, but it's a 55mph highway and the limit drops to 15 for the school zone.  Furthermore, the school is on a road that only intersects with the 55mph highway, there are no pedestrian crossings on the highway.  The school zone is posted 500 feet leading and trailing this intersection.  WTF, Maine?  a reduction to 45 or even 50 would do just fine, you don't need to drop the speed limit by 40mph for that.

[NE2]

there are no marked pedestrian crossings on the highway.

Fixed for you.

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

Not quite.  I've been by there enough back when I lived up there to know that nobody crosses the highway on foot.

[kphoger]

No, the point is that any intersection of roads (with the state-by-state exception of a T intersection with no sidewalk on the short end of the T) has crosswalks.  In the absence of paint on the asphalt, they are considered unmarked crosswalks.

[Revive 755]

My thoughts on school zones are simple.

1.  Speed limit in effect only when school is getting in and letting out.  NOT 24 hours, NOT "7am-5pm on school days." (I'm glaring at you, Iowa.)  ONLY when school is getting in and letting out.

You might find worse in Illinois, where the school zones could go to 'when children are present' 24/7/365 per an article in the Chicago Tribune, although the actual text of the bill (that I can find online tonight) doesn't seem to agree with the article

http://openstates.org/il/bills/98th/HB3229/documents/ILD00127773/

[roadman]

No, the point is that any intersection of roads (with the state-by-state exception of a T intersection with no sidewalk on the short end of the T) has crosswalks.  In the absence of paint on the asphalt, they are considered unmarked crosswalks.

But not all states recognize unmarked crosswalks as legal crossing points for pedestrians.

[kphoger]

Then what the heck is a crosswalk in those states?
Do you have a source to cite that I could read?