Washington man recieves $18,000 bridge toll bill

[1995hoo]

I'm glad I'm having a very slow day work-wise!

....

PS: if I ever drive in Northern Virginia, I'll make sure to go slowly enough to read all the text on all the signs.

Better you do that than rely on an outdated sat-nav database and then panic and come to a stop to throw it in reverse on the Beltway!

....

BTW, going back to the story linked in the original post that started this whole discussion, nowhere did the guy faced with the bill allege that his son didn't know he was using a toll facility or that he couldn't pay cash at the toll facility. He simply thought he'd be sent a bill later.

And what gets muddled in the fact is that each violation is a separate and distinct violation, which is how someone could have missed $100 in tolls but owes $5,000 in fines.  If I don't pay my credit card bill all year long, I'm not going to be assessed 1 late penalty - I'll be hit with 12 penalties. 

It's funny how many people complain about red light cameras, yet have no problem with cashless tolls being enforced the same way. It must be personal - they love to run red lights but have a transponder.

If you fail to pay a toll, it's basically stealing.  Yes, you should get charged.  But there's no middle ground - you paid, or you didn't pay. 

....

I posted the following comment in the "Northern Virginia HOT Lanes" thread about a month ago and I think it's relevant here as well from a practical standpoint. I believe there may be additional escalation beyond the $25 per trip I mentioned, though I'm not certain.

Channel 5 aired what Ms1995hoo and I thought was a very slanted anti-Transurban report on the 10:00 News tonight; it ended with the anchorman (I don't know his name) calling the HO/T lanes a scam and saying he refuses to use them. See link below.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/27766961/defense-attorney-unveils-strategy-to-challenge-huge-e-zpass-express-lane-fines

No doubt there are some people who just screw up, but you have to screw up really severely to wind up in this situation. Assume, for discussion purposes, you don't know your E-ZPass battery is dead and you run up six trips in three days. Since you don't know your battery is dead, you don't pay online within five days when the service charge is only $1.50.

That means you get a bill in the mail for the tolls plus $12.50 per trip (in this example, that means tolls plus $75). Seems to me that would get the average person's attention very quickly.

If you fail to pay the initial invoice, the fees increase to $25 per trip (in this example, that means $150 on top of the tolls). Again, I don't see how anyone could be so foolish as to ignore the invoice.

If you still don't pay, they refer it to a debt collection agency. That, of course, means additional fees on top of the ones already imposed. Understandably, state law lets Transurban pass on those fees to the person whose nonpayment caused them to incur the fees in the first place.

If debt collection goes nowhere in six months, they take you to court.

The attorney Channel 5 quoted talks a lot about criminal law and constitutional issues. I'm not sure his argument will work because under state law, the fees are deemed civil penalties, not criminal fines, and the summons shown on TV was a civil pleading (a warrant in debt, which is a standard form used in general district court). Of course, he can try to convince a judge the matter is actually criminal, but it's unclear whether he'd succeed.

There IS certainly a valid question as to why Transurban proceeds this way instead of querying the E-ZPass database. I have all three of our plate numbers registered on my E-ZPass account, for example, so if my battery were dead, it'd be simple enough for them to get the correct account number and simply bill that account. I don't know why they don't do it that way, but I assume it has something to do with the idea of requiring E-ZPass and not allowing a "toll-by-plate" option like on Florida's Turnpike in the Miami are.

Regarding the "civil versus criminal" point, note it's not the Commonwealth prosecuting the person for unpaid tolls. It's the company that runs the lanes suing, which just underscores it's not a criminal matter. This sort of thing may well vary from state to state. In a civil proceeding, pleading the Fifth Amendment doesn't help you. The trier of fact is entitled to make an adverse inference from your refusal to testify.

Now, I see in the original news article the people claim they never received the toll invoices. That's a pretty common claim that's usually completely untrue, but I can't help but wonder, if multiple invoices were sent and not delivered, is that a sign they failed to update their address with the DMV? If so, then it seems to me the car's owner is at fault if state law requires you to do so within a certain amount of time (when my wife and I got married and she moved to my house, we did all that online, very quick process). The story does not address this beyond saying the invoices were "returned unopened." There are some people out there who think they can avoid mailed service in that manner. Under just about every state's rules of procedure, they're wrong (certain documents require formal service, but most others can be validly served by mail).



I will add this: It seems to me that if you are running a transponder-based tolling system, and if the agency that issues the transponder requests that users include their license-plate numbers in their account profiles, there is little reason why a toll operator within the issuing agency's bailiwick should not query that state's transponder database before sending out a bill. If you get a situation where the transponder battery is dead and the person has no way of knowing it, smacking the person with a $12.50 administrative fee doesn't seem right. I recognize this matter becomes more complicated if you're dealing with out-of-state vehicles and I don't know what the right solution is there. This sort of thing DOES need to be addressed if there is to be any sort of compliance with that MAP-21 mandate for interoperability, though. If toll-by-plate is to be the default method for interoperability, then it's not reasonable to stick, say, a SunPass user on an E-ZPass road with a $12.50 fee because he didn't have an E-ZPass.

[jeffandnicole]

Washington's real failure is not the signage, it's letting it go until it's built up $18K before bothering to track down the offender.

Technically, they didn't track him down.  He tried to sell the car and in the process of the paperwork for the car sale, it popped up that he owed a lot of money.

That's arguably even worse.

(Corrected for you)

Nah.  I think what's worse is that it's clearly a theft of services.  If he was tracked down, it would probably be via the police, and he'll be taken in via handcuffs and arrested.  Since the DMV didn't have his correct address and it's determined he never updated his information with the DMV, then most likely that's another charge against him.

[Henry]

How someone could get a $18,000 bill in the mail is beyond me!

[kkt]

Washington's real failure is not the signage, it's letting it go until it's built up $18K before bothering to track down the offender.

Technically, they didn't track him down.  He tried to sell the car and in the process of the paperwork for the car sale, it popped up that he owed a lot of money.

Okay, Washington's fault is that they didn't track down someone who owed them some money before it became a ridiculous amount.

[jeffandnicole]

Washington's real failure is not the signage, it's letting it go until it's built up $18K before bothering to track down the offender.

Technically, they didn't track him down.  He tried to sell the car and in the process of the paperwork for the car sale, it popped up that he owed a lot of money.

Okay, Washington's fault is that they didn't track down someone who owed them some money before it became a ridiculous amount.

And how do they do that?  The address on file isn't correct. 

The only other way is to put the license plate on file as a stop and hold type situation, which again will lead to the detainment and/or arrest of the driver.  And in that case, they could be arresting or detaining the wrong person, who just happened to be driving the vehicle.

[Bickendan]

Washington's real failure is not the signage, it's letting it go until it's built up $18K before bothering to track down the offender.

Technically, they didn't track him down.  He tried to sell the car and in the process of the paperwork for the car sale, it popped up that he owed a lot of money.

Okay, Washington's fault is that they didn't track down someone who owed them some money before it became a ridiculous amount.

And how do they do that?  The address on file isn't correct. 

The only other way is to put the license plate on file as a stop and hold type situation, which again will lead to the detainment and/or arrest of the driver.  And in that case, they could be arresting or detaining the wrong person, who just happened to be driving the vehicle.

Automatic mail forwarding when someone moves and changes their address with USPS? I know that's only a six week or so window, but if the toll running started within that window...

[kkt]

Washington's real failure is not the signage, it's letting it go until it's built up $18K before bothering to track down the offender.

Technically, they didn't track him down.  He tried to sell the car and in the process of the paperwork for the car sale, it popped up that he owed a lot of money.

Okay, Washington's fault is that they didn't track down someone who owed them some money before it became a ridiculous amount.

And how do they do that?  The address on file isn't correct. 

The only other way is to put the license plate on file as a stop and hold type situation, which again will lead to the detainment and/or arrest of the driver.  And in that case, they could be arresting or detaining the wrong person, who just happened to be driving the vehicle.

Automatic mail forwarding when someone moves and changes their address with USPS? I know that's only a six week or so window, but if the toll running started within that window...

No, 1st class mail gets forwarded for a year.  The only way they wouldn't get it is if they "forgot" to have their mail forwarded.

There are other ways, too.  For $18K I might try googling or hire a detective.

[jeffandnicole]

Mail forwarding is optional. It needs to be initiated by the individual.  Some mail says "Do not forward.  Return to sender if undeliverable". 

In the grand scheme of things, $18k really isn't all that much to the toll operator.  We're dealing with people that oversee multi-millions of dollars, if not billions.  And especially in EZ Pass land, there's stories of trucking companies that owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in tolls & fines.

[kkt]

Mail forwarding is optional. It needs to be initiated by the individual.  Some mail says "Do not forward.  Return to sender if undeliverable". 

In the grand scheme of things, $18k really isn't all that much to the toll operator.  We're dealing with people that oversee multi-millions of dollars, if not billions.  And especially in EZ Pass land, there's stories of trucking companies that owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in tolls & fines.

If $18K isn't all that much, a few hundred for a couple of hours of a detective's time should be even less.

Perhaps that's why the project is so expensive.

[US81]

It will be interesting to see what, if anything, comes of the class action lawsuit.

[SP Cook]

. In a civil proceeding, pleading the Fifth Amendment doesn't help you. The trier of fact is entitled to make an adverse inference from your refusal to testify.

Oh, that is correct.  For both sides.  First, as you should know, state judgments are only valid within a particular state.  And even then only after process within the bounds of due process.  So is some outfit purports to "bill" someone by plate number out-of-state, good luck getting service, and then good luck domesticating the judgment into a different state, which is a minimum $2000 proceeding for even the most lowlife of lawyers. 

And then there is that "testify" deal.  Exactly whom, is going to testify for the outfit?  Need a HUMAN with ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE.  See FRE 901. 

People win, companies lose.   

[vdeane]

No, 1st class mail gets forwarded for a year.  The only way they wouldn't get it is if they "forgot" to have their mail forwarded.

Or if USPS forgot to forward the mail.  I've had that happen before, both to myself and people who previously had a mailing address I had.

[lordsutch]

My general sense of these things is that toll agencies will work with people who are first-time violators; you probably have to be persistent about it, in the same way that pleading ignorance with a NYC or Quebec cop about the right-turn-on-red law or a bored country cop pulling you over for rolling a stop sign at 1 mph will often get you off with a warning. If you go fight a ticket in court you may get it dismissed for court costs. At the same time, though, if I roll a stop sign and get a real ticket for it, or I fight the ticket and the judge makes me pay up and pay court costs, I can't really complain in any legal sense.

As for the legal tender issue, leaving aside the statement on Federal Reserve Notes (designed so creditors couldn't demand payment in United States Notes or gold rather than Federal Reserve Notes, and thus insist on being repaid with "harder" currency than greenbacks, even if they originally lent the money in gold-backed currency), it really doesn't fly except to the extent that you could mail or hand-deliver a bunch of paper currency to the toll authority to pay the bill after the fact; the fact you're toting around the cash at the time and could have paid is immaterial. It doesn't exempt you from paying late fees any more than being delinquent on your car payment for a month and then hand-delivering cash to the bank later to pay the outstanding payments would forgive any penalties and interest on the loan for not making timely payments, even if you had the cash in your wallet when the payment was due and could have paid it then.

[Pete from Boston]

No, 1st class mail gets forwarded for a year.  The only way they wouldn't get it is if they "forgot" to have their mail forwarded.

Or if USPS forgot to forward the mail.  I've had that happen before, both to myself and people who previously had a mailing address I had.

When you don't pay a bill, you get a second and third notice, and a threat to send your account to collection.  This may take six months.  In that time, you will have amassed some kind of paper trail at your new place.  The collection agency will find you based off of that. 

At that point, you will then get a lot of attention from them, after which they may give up and put something on your credit, but might just sue you.

$18,000 would probably have generated a fair amount of mail between six months and a year.  If not, the state should reexamine its contract.

[1995hoo]

To me, the points "Pete from Boston" makes underscore some of the reasons why I find it baffling that any of these unpaid-toll cases make it far enough to go to court. If I receive some kind of invoice, you bet I would investigate it unless it is amply clear it's some sort of attempt at a scam (and the scams usually come by e-mail nowadays). I simply find it inconceivable that people ignore these things. There was a report on TV about a woman in Virginia who ignored them "because I don't want to pay it." Case went to court and she lost and did not appeal. The court allowed a payment plan and she failed to comply with that because "I don't think I should have to pay that." The court then ordered the DMV to suspend her driver's license. "I don't want to pay" and "I don't think I should have to comply with a court judgment" are pretty stupid arguments!



Out of curiosity based on some of the points raised in this thread, I looked up the Virginia statute relating to HO/T lanes. I know the original post in this thread is about Washington State, but I pulled up this particular Virginia statute for the following reasons:

(a) I'm familiar with and have immediate free access to Virginia sources. The same is not necessarily true for Washington.
(b) I strongly suspect many states have similarly-framed statutes, at least in concept.
(c) Our HO/T lanes were the primary all-electronic toll facilities we have. There is now a tunnel in Norfolk that has gone AET as well. I have not looked up the statute applicable there, but I suspect the General Assembly used the HO/T lane statute as a model.

Regarding the "legal tender" point, the statute says this:

Any person operating a motor vehicle on designated HOT lanes shall make arrangements with the HOT lanes operator for payment of the required toll prior to entering such HOT lanes. ....

That's how they require E-ZPass. As has been noted elsewhere in the thread, there is nothing prohibiting you from funding your E-ZPass with cash if you so desire.

SP Cook tried to come up with a nonsensical argument based on the Federal Rules of Evidence (which do not apply in state court anyway!) to say there can be no proof of a toll violation, but the General Assembly anticipated that. Bear in mind court rules of that sort are trumped by statute requiring the courts to accept certain forms of evidence. The Virginia statute says this:

2. a. A HOT lanes operator shall install and operate, or cause to be installed or operated, a photo-enforcement system at locations where tolls are collected for the use of such HOT lanes.

b. A summons for civil violation of this section may be executed pursuant to this subdivision, when such violation is evidenced by information obtained from a photo-enforcement system as defined in this chapter. A certificate, sworn to or affirmed by a technician employed or authorized by the HOT lanes operator, or a facsimile of such a certificate, based on inspection of photographs, microphotographs, videotapes, or other recorded images produced by a photo-enforcement system, shall be prima facie evidence of the facts contained therein. Any photographs, microphotographs, videotape, or other recorded images evidencing such a violation shall be available for inspection in any proceeding to adjudicate the liability for such violation under this subdivision. Any vehicle rental or vehicle leasing company, if named in a summons, shall be released as a party to the action if it provides to the HOT lanes operator a copy of the vehicle rental agreement or lease or an affidavit identifying the renter or lessee prior to the date of hearing set forth in the summons. Upon receipt of such rental agreement, lease, or affidavit, a summons shall be issued for the renter or lessee identified therein. Release of this information shall not be deemed a violation of any provision of the Government Data Collection and Dissemination Practices Act (§ 2.2-3800 et seq.) or the Insurance Information and Privacy Protection Act (§ 38.2-600 et seq.).

This does two things. It overcomes the hearsay issue of relying on photos and videotape, although arguably they might fall within the "business records" exception anyway (that's a matter for the individual states to decide). It also creates a rebuttable presumption that the vehicle in question was operated on the lanes in violation of the statute. (For those unfamiliar, a "rebuttable presumption" essentially means the alleged facts are taken as true but the opposing party has the opportunity to disprove them, as well as the burden of producing satisfactory evidence to do so). Creating an irrebuttable presumption would be a constitutional problem, so they don't do that.

The statute goes on to provide various other things regarding the amount of the civil penalty and the like. You can find it here:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+33.2-503

As far as domesticating a judgment in another state goes, that's not a particularly onerous procedure, though the exact mechanics vary by state. There are plenty of smaller law firms that will do that sort of thing for a flat fee or the like as an easy source of business. Service of process is much easier. Every state has some sort of long-arm statute that makes serving process relatively trivial (important, sure, but not difficult).

[ZLoth]

According to the Washington DOT page at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/GoodToGo/nocp.htm ... :

If you fail to pay your toll bill within 80 days after crossing the SR 520 or Tacoma Narrows bridges, a notice of civil penalty will be assessed in the amount of $40 for each unpaid toll transaction, plus all accumulated tolls and fees. Registered vehicle owners have up to 20 days to pay or to dispute a civil penalty.

At $40 per infraction, you would think they would attempt to send the third "pay up" notification via certified mail so that they have proof that A. They mailed out a notice, and B. You refused to receive said mail.

[1995hoo]

According to the Washington DOT page at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/GoodToGo/nocp.htm ... :

If you fail to pay your toll bill within 80 days after crossing the SR 520 or Tacoma Narrows bridges, a notice of civil penalty will be assessed in the amount of $40 for each unpaid toll transaction, plus all accumulated tolls and fees. Registered vehicle owners have up to 20 days to pay or to dispute a civil penalty.

At $40 per infraction, you would think they would attempt to send the third "pay up" notification via certified mail so that they have proof that A. They mailed out a notice, and B. You refused to receive said mail.

Agreed. I think it's just good practice. I assume whatever employee they send to court to testify is trained to describe their routine practice for sending these things.

[kkt]

No, 1st class mail gets forwarded for a year.  The only way they wouldn't get it is if they "forgot" to have their mail forwarded.

Or if USPS forgot to forward the mail.  I've had that happen before, both to myself and people who previously had a mailing address I had.

Sure, sometimes.  But we're talking about thousands of pieces of mail.

[jeffandnicole]

No, 1st class mail gets forwarded for a year.  The only way they wouldn't get it is if they "forgot" to have their mail forwarded.

Or if USPS forgot to forward the mail.  I've had that happen before, both to myself and people who previously had a mailing address I had.

Sure, sometimes.  But we're talking about thousands of pieces of mail.

As mentioned, the mail may have never been set to be forwarded anyway.

[1995hoo]

At some point they probably forward the matter to a collection agency. Those people are very good at tracking down debtors. Very persistent, too, from what I understand.

[US81]

...
At $40 per infraction, you would think they would attempt to send the third "pay up" notification via certified mail so that they have proof that A. They mailed out a notice, and B. You refused to receive said mail.

One would think. The text of the article about the class action lawsuit does not, to my read, seem to support this. I don't quite know how people know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the kid didn't update his address with the DMV (or whatever the WA equivalent is) because I do know I personally have had issues with the TX DMV, despite saving copies of everything to prove my personal correct and complete registration with them. There are a lot of people in north and central Texas who claim not to have received any notices until they went to renew their car tags. I know don't how someone can prove "failure to receive" to some of the posters upthread or to anyone else for that matter, but if it's really true that you've always received all the mail that's been sent to you and never ever received anything not intended for you, congratulations. It happens to me on about a weekly basis that something is in my box not intended for me. I of course have no way of quantifying how much mail intended for me that I do not receive.

I'm not defending the kid - he was stupid - oops, I meant 'he made poor choices' - and shouldn't have crossed the bridge without finding out how it works, or at worst he should've stopped after the first crossing. However,  as referenced in the class action lawsuit article, there do seem to be questionable billing practices.   

[Pete from Boston]

No, 1st class mail gets forwarded for a year.  The only way they wouldn't get it is if they "forgot" to have their mail forwarded.

Or if USPS forgot to forward the mail.  I've had that happen before, both to myself and people who previously had a mailing address I had.

Sure, sometimes.  But we're talking about thousands of pieces of mail.

As mentioned, the mail may have never been set to be forwarded anyway.

Collection agencies don't rely on the post office.  They'll find you on their own.

[Pete from Boston]

According to the Washington DOT page at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/GoodToGo/nocp.htm ... :

If you fail to pay your toll bill within 80 days after crossing the SR 520 or Tacoma Narrows bridges, a notice of civil penalty will be assessed in the amount of $40 for each unpaid toll transaction, plus all accumulated tolls and fees. Registered vehicle owners have up to 20 days to pay or to dispute a civil penalty.

At $40 per infraction, you would think they would attempt to send the third "pay up" notification via certified mail so that they have proof that A. They mailed out a notice, and B. You refused to receive said mail.

No one sends out Certified for $40.  It doesn't justify the labor and fees.

[1995hoo]

According to the Washington DOT page at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/GoodToGo/nocp.htm ... :

If you fail to pay your toll bill within 80 days after crossing the SR 520 or Tacoma Narrows bridges, a notice of civil penalty will be assessed in the amount of $40 for each unpaid toll transaction, plus all accumulated tolls and fees. Registered vehicle owners have up to 20 days to pay or to dispute a civil penalty.

At $40 per infraction, you would think they would attempt to send the third "pay up" notification via certified mail so that they have proof that A. They mailed out a notice, and B. You refused to receive said mail.

No one sends out Certified for $40.  It doesn't justify the labor and fees.

I thought he was referring to the aggregated amount: $40 per transaction multiplied by some umpteen transactions.

[J N Winkler]

After seeing this thread run on for three pages and delve deeply into the legal aspects of debt collection, I have a question:  why do we still believe in the fairy tale that tolls--however paid--will finance the infrastructure we need?

None of these issues surface if the money is just collected at the gas pump, without all the faff and bother of contracts--express or implied--between the motorist and the highway provider.