The burbs

[texaskdog]

I used to live outside of Saint Paul, land of 100 suburbs.  Now I live in Austin, land of 3 suburbs.  Austin annexes land in small chunks.  Recently I lived with an AUstin mailing address, which was really a suburb, were in the "MUD", but our postal carrier said we were still considered rural.

In your perfect world are there lots of suburbs or is an MSA a city?

[kphoger]

If the locale has an actual downtown area unto itself, then let it be a distinct suburb. If not, then let it be part of something else. Bel Aire, KS, and Carol Stream, IL: I'm looking at you.

[texaskdog]

If the locale has an actual downtown area unto itself, then let it be a distinct suburb. If not, then let it be part of something else. Bel Aire, KS, and Carol Stream, IL: I'm looking at you.

Oh yeah I hate those suburbs where they try to create downtowns.  Brooklyn Park Minnesota

[SectorZ]

This is where I will comment on where New England has it better. No random county space that belongs to no one, no cities gobbling up land since 1900. You just go from one town/city to another. We may suck at exit numbering, but we have it right here.

[Brandon]

This is where I will comment on where New England has it better. No random county space that belongs to no one, no cities gobbling up land since 1900. You just go from one town/city to another. We may suck at exit numbering, but we have it right here.

What would be the point of a city or village having acres upon acres on farmland not serviced by water or sewer lines, having to have municipal police, fire, garbage, and snow removal services?

[6a]

This is where I will comment on where New England has it better. No random county space that belongs to no one, no cities gobbling up land since 1900. You just go from one town/city to another. We may suck at exit numbering, but we have it right here.

Welcome to the City of Cheyenne...

...all 80,000 square miles of the City of Cheyenne.

[PColumbus73]

I hate living in the suburbs, I like living in an area where I can walk to the gas station without having to chance walking in a street with cars coming at you at 50 MPH.

[SD Mapman]

We have 5 suburbs... in the state. (and like 3 of them are distinct towns)

[Zeffy]

Evidently, New Jersey is one giant suburb of either New York City or Philadelphia. Yay.

[kphoger]

We have 5 suburbs... in the state. (and like 3 of them are distinct towns)

I don't understand the difference between a suburb and a distinct town. Either that or I don't understand how one can be both.

In my mind, a suburb is a town that's close to a major city and whose identity and existence are tied to that city.

So if "distinct" means a separate political entity, then all suburbs are distinct towns as I understand the word. If it's not a separate political entity, then I just call it a neighborhood.

But if "distinct" means culturally and economically separate, then no distinct towns are suburbs. They're just... towns.

[Duke87]

I find the idea of cities expanding their boundaries to encompass basically all of the metro to be strange. It... isn't done that way in the Northeast.

In my mind a city should have boundaries which make geographic sense (i.e. no weird tentacles or exclaves, or tiny bits on the other side of a river) and encompass areas that are urbanized while excluding areas that are suburban.

I mean, this isn't perfect - by this guideline most of Queens east of the Van Wyck, all of Staten Island, and even a couple parts of The Bronx shouldn't be part of New York City. But it's better than New York City encompassing all of the lower Hudson Valley, most of Long Island, and huge chunks of New Jersey and Connecticut as it would have to if the Texas model of annexation were applied.

[cl94]

This is where I will comment on where New England has it better. No random county space that belongs to no one, no cities gobbling up land since 1900. You just go from one town/city to another. We may suck at exit numbering, but we have it right here.

New York is the same way. Everything is a town, city, or village. Little annexation since the 19th Century. Found it really strange when I moved to Ohio for a short time and found that some areas are unincorporated in that they have little more than a township name.

[SectorZ]

I find the idea of cities expanding their boundaries to encompass basically all of the metro to be strange. It... isn't done that way in the Northeast.

In my mind a city should have boundaries which make geographic sense (i.e. no weird tentacles or exclaves, or tiny bits on the other side of a river) and encompass areas that are urbanized while excluding areas that are suburban.

I mean, this isn't perfect - by this guideline most of Queens east of the Van Wyck, all of Staten Island, and even a couple parts of The Bronx shouldn't be part of New York City. But it's better than New York City encompassing all of the lower Hudson Valley, most of Long Island, and huge chunks of New Jersey and Connecticut as it would have to if the Texas model of annexation were applied.

This was the point I was trying to make. The city borders of most cities in the western parts of the US (and Florida too) look like some sneezed on a map and outlined the droplets for the city borders. Exclaves and enclaves all over the place. Don't get that. I'll accept unincorporated counties in rural areas. However, for example, a relative lives in an unincorporated part of the county outside of Fredericksburg, VA, and it is quite suburban and not remotely rural. Maybe because of where I live and grew up, it feels like living in nothing at all.

[The Nature Boy]

The South also has some weirdly drawn cities because of annexation. The Northeast had a head start on urbanizations so their borders were settled MUCH earlier than the rest of the country.

Ex. Charlotte and Boston have similar populations but MUCH different population densities because Charlotte has annexed almost everything around it.

[Pete from Boston]

Evidently, New Jersey is one giant suburb of either New York City or Philadelphia. Yay.

One of the things that makes it a great place to live. 

[The Nature Boy]

Evidently, New Jersey is one giant suburb of either New York City or Philadelphia. Yay.

One of the things that makes it a great place to live.

Can't you apparently faintly see the skylines of both NYC and Philly from the top of a roller coaster at Great Adventure?

[Zeffy]

Can't you apparently faintly see the skylines of both NYC and Philly from the top of a roller coaster at Great Adventure?

On an extremely clear day, you can see New York City's skyline from the Sourland Mountains all the way in Hillsborough.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7870392

[Laura]

Baltimore's last annexation was in 1918. I suspect that it would have annexed again after WWII had it not been made illegal in 1948.

Weirdly, Baltimore City is independent from Baltimore County, and Baltimore County is completely unincorporated.


iPhone

[TheStranger]

We have 5 suburbs... in the state. (and like 3 of them are distinct towns)

I don't understand the difference between a suburb and a distinct town. Either that or I don't understand how one can be both.

I think sometimes it's possible entirely on historical context, as seen in these California examples:

- San Francisco basically is one of the few West Coast cities to use the Northeast model, having restricted itself to its 47 square miles since 1856 (with the unintended consequence of extreme density today, especially compared to the former southern half of San Francisco County, the current San Mateo County).  Because this happened so early in California's existence as a state, many independent communities emerged pre-1920 throughout the Bay Area (i.e. Berkeley where the very first University of California is located) and only became "suburban" as transportation technology improved.  (Oakland and San Jose developed as separate, yet close, urban cores of their own, but San Jose followed the 1960s-1970s annexation model more than any other city has in the region.)

- Glendale, San Fernando, Pasadena, and Burbank are all rather distinct entities within the greater Los Angeles area, even when three of those (Glendale, San Fernando, Burbank) are pretty much surrounded by Los Angeles itself.  Further south, Long Beach is somewhat of a middle point between suburb and its own city (it has a very urbanized if compact downtown and is far enough away from downtown Los Angeles to be a separate destination, yet it is immediately adjacent to the annexation-created Los Angeles districts of San Pedro and Harbor Gateway).

[bandit957]

If it's not suburban in character, it's not a suburb.

The river cities in northern Kentucky are centered on Cincinnati but aren't really suburbs.

[texaskdog]

In Austin, they don't annex blocks of land.  20 years ago the colorado river and it's banks (that was about it) up to Lake Austin was annex.  Little pockets of odd shape land get annexed all the time.  Look up Austin City Council 10-1 and you'll see the boundaries and laugh.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=austin+10-1+map&id=973CC627703CB805D5907D62717F3CD546088CFA&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=973CC627703CB805D5907D62717F3CD546088CFA&selectedIndex=0

[OCGuy81]

Pretty much all of Orange County is just a giant suburb.  It's one of the most populated areas in the country with no defined urban center.  A few of the older communities like Santa Ana and Orange have "old town" areas, but that's really about it.

Sprawl!

[Brandon]

If it's not suburban in character, it's not a suburb.

Some municipalities can be varied in this way.  They have suburban sections as well as central city sections.  It's not as clear cut as one might at first think.

[TheStranger]

If it's not suburban in character, it's not a suburb.

Some municipalities can be varied in this way.  They have suburban sections as well as central city sections.  It's not as clear cut as one might at first think.

To build on that thought:

- even San Francisco's 47 square miles are enough to have a decidedly suburban western half (Sunset/Richmond/Lakeside areas), with a suburban-style shopping mall (Stonestown).

- San Jose basically annexed most of the potential suburban land except Morgan Hill, Milpitas, and the older communities in western Santa Clara County; these areas of SJ have developed much less densely than the downtown core, particularly along Route 85 and much of the city limits west of Route 87.

- Long Beach itself could be seen as a "suburb" of Los Angeles despite having more people in its city limits than Atlanta...yet it has its own downtown core (as noted in my earlier post)...along with portions that are suburban with subdivisions, the further you get from 710.

[bzakharin]

If the locale has an actual downtown area unto itself, then let it be a distinct suburb. If not, then let it be part of something else. Bel Aire, KS, and Carol Stream, IL: I'm looking at you.

So each borough of NYC is at least one suburb if not several? And then there is NJ where you have towns with downtowns mixed with large townships without a downtown. What's Cherry Hill? Haddonfield to the southwest, Voorhees to the south, Moorestown to the northeast, Pennsauken to the Northwest are all suburbs by your definition. Is it supposed to annex or be annexed by one of them or be split between them or something?