North Carolina's nine-panel logo sign experiment

[Pink Jazz]

Back in 2005, at a few exits (in one of the urban areas I believe), NCDOT experimented with logo signs that can hold up to nine panels per sign (in a 3x3 grid).  This experiment didn't receive final approval from the FHWA since no human factors lab study was ever conducted.

However, last year at NCSU, there was a lab experiment done with a driving simulator, where 40 participants were asked to identify all BGS as well as logo signs (both 6 panel and 9 panel).  While drivers spent more time looking at the logo signs than the BGS, all information was identified on all sign types, and no significant difference in time was found with drivers looking at 6 vs. 9 panel logo signs.  In addition, the researchers found little if any difference in speed reduction and lane deviation in the drivers looking at 6 panel vs. 9 panel logo signs.  Thus NCSU has advised NCDOT that 9 panel logo signs does not significantly decrease highway safety, which hints that NCDOT may consider giving the experiment another shot.

Based on this research, could we eventually see the FHWA grant an interim approval for nine-panel logo signs if NCDOT resumes the experiment?  I think this would be very useful in urban areas, which are generally limited to only one or two signs per interchange in each direction, allowing more businesses to have space on one sign.

[cjk374]

No approval from FHWA?  So are these illegal?

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.442036,-90.125224,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s60EiEb6Ptdwb0DgqzFt05g!2e0

[jeffandnicole]

How do people generally use these signs? 

Let's say I'm driving thru an unfamiliar area, and I want to stop at McDonalds.  Generally, I'm going to scan the sign for the McDonalds logo.  If I don't see it at quick glance, I move on.  Regardless if there's 2, 6 or 9 logos, if I don't see the one I want, I don't scan the sign to see what else is available. 

If I'm looking for something unusual, I know I take a bit more time - and attention - to scan the sign to figure out what I want that I normally don't have available at home.

In this experiment, at least what you have printed above, panelists were able to identify all logos.  Personally, I find that highly unlikely.  Endless experiments are done where people look at something for a specific period of time, and at the end are supposed to remember various details about it.  There's an extremely high probability that those people won't remember the exact details of what they saw.  But then again, I don't know how the study was conducted, and how they determined that panelists were able to ID the logos.

It would also be of note to collect accident data in the area where those 9 logo signs exist, and compare it to other similar areas.   Personally, that's more telling than a limited study. 

[oscar]

How do people generally use these signs? 

Let's say I'm driving thru an unfamiliar area, and I want to stop at McDonalds.  Generally, I'm going to scan the sign for the McDonalds logo.  If I don't see it at quick glance, I move on.  Regardless if there's 2, 6 or 9 logos, if I don't see the one I want, I don't scan the sign to see what else is available. 

If I'm looking for something unusual, I know I take a bit more time - and attention - to scan the sign to figure out what I want that I normally don't have available at home.

In this experiment, at least what you have printed above, panelists were able to identify all logos.  Personally, I find that highly unlikely.  Endless experiments are done where people look at something for a specific period of time, and at the end are supposed to remember various details about it.  There's an extremely high probability that those people won't remember the exact details of what they saw.  But then again, I don't know how the study was conducted, and how they determined that panelists were able to ID the logos. 

How I was using them, when I drove through North Carolina just a few days ago but also what I usually do:

-- scan the logos posted on the freeway for one place I'm looking for (my favorite restaurants, or the motel I've booked for the night), to decide whether to get off at that exit

-- on the exit ramp, look for which way to turn and how far from the freeway it'll be.

For the on-freeway logo signs, it doesn't make a lot of difference whether there are nine rather than six logos, so long as the businesses have designed their logos to be instantly understood at speed (some, surprisingly, are weak on that).  The key thing is I don't have to understand all the logos on the sign, just a few of them.  I have a mild preference for using an extra sign where there are more than six in a category, but where that's not an option nine logos would work.

Where logo signage sometimes falls down is on the exit ramp, where the arrows pointing you in the right direction (most important) and text showing the distance to the chosen destination often are not large enough for me to read clearly unless I slow down and sometimes piss off drivers behind me.  If more logos mean less space for the arrows and distance text, best to trim down the number of logos or split them among more signs.

[Pink Jazz]

No approval from FHWA?  So are these illegal?

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.442036,-90.125224,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s60EiEb6Ptdwb0DgqzFt05g!2e0

Well, according to this page on the FHWA website:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/reqdetails.asp?id=118

The experiment was conditionally approved, but never received final approval due to lack of a human lab factors study.  I'm not sure if it means that NCDOT was required to remove the 9 panel logo signs.

[slorydn1]

How do people generally use these signs? 

Let's say I'm driving thru an unfamiliar area, and I want to stop at McDonalds.  Generally, I'm going to scan the sign for the McDonalds logo.  If I don't see it at quick glance, I move on. 

This, though for me its more about Shell Gas-I have a Shell card and I prefer to only use Shell 93 in my Mustangs, so if I don't see the Shell logo then then I keep going until I do.


Honestly, I couldn't even tell you what is on the 6 panel signs at the nearest freeway exit to my house, and I look at them every day on my way home from work.

[RG407]

Instead of doing nine logos which may compromise safety, why not charge businesses more at those interchanges with more than six businesses that want to be on the logo signs?  Simple supply and demand.

[vdeane]

Because raising the price would make it even harder for mom and pop restaurants than it already is?

[WashuOtaku]

I believe there are some 9-panals on I-485 and at I-85 (Concord Mills Exit).

[SSF]

Because raising the price would make it even harder for mom and pop restaurants than it already is?

how many mom and pops actually advertise on those panel signs anyways?  It seems to be mostly chain restaurants to me.

[jakeroot]

What if we completely did away with logo signs?

[WashuOtaku]

What if we completely did away with logo signs?

I doubt that would happen, I've seen it used in other countries too now.  But, if they did, their would likely be even more billboards.

[Pink Jazz]

Because raising the price would make it even harder for mom and pop restaurants than it already is?

how many mom and pops actually advertise on those panel signs anyways?  It seems to be mostly chain restaurants to me.

I have seen plenty of locally owned restaurants on logo signs, particularly those in urban areas.  For rural areas, most people who are driving by probably want to grab something familiar anyway, so I don't think local mom and pop restaurants would benefit much from having a sign in a rural area.

[txstateends]

What if we completely did away with logo signs?

I'd rather have logo/service signs than *nothing* at all, leaving me to pass an exit or, wander around wasting time and gas.  I don't really mind more descriptive logo signs if there's an exit with more than a couple of places there from which to choose.

[jeffandnicole]

Because raising the price would make it even harder for mom and pop restaurants than it already is?

how many mom and pops actually advertise on those panel signs anyways?  It seems to be mostly chain restaurants to me.

I have seen plenty of locally owned restaurants on logo signs, particularly those in urban areas.  For rural areas, most people who are driving by probably want to grab something familiar anyway, so I don't think local mom and pop restaurants would benefit much from having a sign in a rural area.

Mom & Pops are in areas where Mom & Pop live, and tend to have a steady flow of locals.  For the most part, they're not going to start a restaurant in a rural area where there's few other locals around to eat, and most travelers aren't going to attempt to test out Brandon and Brenda's Sitdown and relax for an hour restaurant , especially those with Kids. Travelers want something they're familiar with, when in unfamiliar areas.

Mom & Pops in urban or suburban areas tend to have a much steadier local base of customers, and some are willing to take the chance on the money involved to put their names on a blue highway sign. The vast lack of them though shows you what people are really looking for when they travel.

[kphoger]

The way I use these signs...

We decide ahead of time that we're going to stop in XYZ City for gas or lunch or whatever.  I don't care what gas station we use, so we just pick whichever one looks like it would have the nicest bathrooms.  But if we're needing to stop for a meal, then my wife and I need to figure out if one of those restaurants is something we can agree on.  So, for food, we definitely take note of every logo posted on the sign.  The more logos, the harder it is for my mind to process which logos I need to sort out.  With nine total panels, by the time I figured out which ones were actually for food, it might be too late for me to identify and remember all the restaurants listed.  I would prefer nine logos to be split up onto two different signs:  one for gas and lodging, another for food.

[kphoger]

Because raising the price would make it even harder for mom and pop restaurants than it already is?

how many mom and pops actually advertise on those panel signs anyways?  It seems to be mostly chain restaurants to me.

I have seen plenty of locally owned restaurants on logo signs, particularly those in urban areas.  For rural areas, most people who are driving by probably want to grab something familiar anyway, so I don't think local mom and pop restaurants would benefit much from having a sign in a rural area.

Mom & Pops are in areas where Mom & Pop live, and tend to have a steady flow of locals.  For the most part, they're not going to start a restaurant in a rural area where there's few other locals around to eat, and most travelers aren't going to attempt to test out Brandon and Brenda's Sitdown and relax for an hour restaurant , especially those with Kids. Travelers want something they're familiar with, when in unfamiliar areas.

Mom & Pops in urban or suburban areas tend to have a much steadier local base of customers, and some are willing to take the chance on the money involved to put their names on a blue highway sign. The vast lack of them though shows you what people are really looking for when they travel.

Mom & Pop restaurants' being on blue signs is very advantageous in small towns along the Interstate where there are no fast food chains.  That lets you know there actually is somewhere to eat in town, and you don't need to keep driving a half-hour down the road.

[cjk374]

The more logos, the harder it is for my mind to process which logos I need to sort out.  With nine total panels, by the time I figured out which ones were actually for food, it might be too late for me to identify and remember all the restaurants listed.  I would prefer nine logos to be split up onto two different signs:  one for gas and lodging, another for food.

I-20 through Louisiana has 6-panel signs as the biggest ones.  I've noticed several exits that have food listed on 2 different signs.  The 2nd sign listing food is usually a 6-panel that has been reworked and remarked, putting the food panels on what may have been a sign that was 6-panels reserved for gas, but not all 6 panels had ever been used. 

So now you gotta read all the signs carefully to make sure you don't miss a 2nd sign listing food.

[Pink Jazz]

The more logos, the harder it is for my mind to process which logos I need to sort out.  With nine total panels, by the time I figured out which ones were actually for food, it might be too late for me to identify and remember all the restaurants listed.  I would prefer nine logos to be split up onto two different signs:  one for gas and lodging, another for food.

I-20 through Louisiana has 6-panel signs as the biggest ones.  I've noticed several exits that have food listed on 2 different signs.  The 2nd sign listing food is usually a 6-panel that has been reworked and remarked, putting the food panels on what may have been a sign that was 6-panels reserved for gas, but not all 6 panels had ever been used. 

So now you gotta read all the signs carefully to make sure you don't miss a 2nd sign listing food.

There are definitely lots of exits here in the Phoenix area that have more than one sign for food; I have yet to see any with more than one gas or lodging sign.  There aren't even any full six panel gas signs here in the Phoenix area (three logos for gas is the most I have seen), and only one full six panel lodging sign (located at Loop 101 and Glendale Ave near the Westgate complex).

[jakeroot]

My idea: scrap logo signs, just say "Fast food next exit" or "Gas next exit":

[oscar]

My idea: scrap logo signs, just say "Fast food next exit" or "Gas next exit":

Terrible idea.  How can motorists find what specific restaurants, motels, etc. are at an upcoming exit?  Especially motorists who don't have smartphones, or are traveling solo and can't use them behind the wheel.

[jakeroot]

My idea: scrap logo signs, just say "Fast food next exit" or "Gas next exit":

Terrible idea.  How can motorists find what specific restaurants, motels, etc. are at an upcoming exit?  Especially motorists who don't have smartphones, or are traveling solo and can't use them behind the wheel.

I didn't know we had to cater to those who only eat at specific fast food restaurants and only stay at specific hotels.

[oscar]

I didn't know we had to cater to those who only eat at specific fast food restaurants and only stay at specific hotels.

The restaurant, lodging, etc. industries spend billions of dollars promoting those brand preferences. If the targets of their advertising and other promotional efforts didn't care, the companies could save a ton of money.

The brand preferences can be non-trivial. In my case, the restaurant preference is in part for medical reasons. Some may be looking for Chinese or kosher, or to support or boycott specific companies like Chick-Fil-A (when also is closed Sundays, nice to know if that's when you're traveling) or BP for moral/political reasons. And helping people satisfy those preferences means they waste less time and fuel searching for what they want.

[jakeroot]

I didn't know we had to cater to those who only eat at specific fast food restaurants and only stay at specific hotels.

The restaurant, lodging, etc. industries spend billions of dollars promoting those brand preferences. If the targets of their advertising and other promotional efforts didn't care, the companies could save a ton of money.

The brand preferences can be non-trivial. In my case, the restaurant preference is in part for medical reasons. Some may be looking for Chinese or kosher, or to support or boycott specific companies like Chick-Fil-A (when also is closed Sundays, nice to know if that's when you're traveling) or BP for moral/political reasons. And helping people satisfy those preferences means they waste less time and fuel searching for what they want.

Of course people have preferences for certain things...that's well established. But the government's job should not be to pander to the 1% who need special treatment. They can help themselves. And, we could save small business owners a lot of money in advertising by not constantly advertising the same chain restaurants and hotels at every single exit, but rather by just saying "hotels" and "fast food" and letting people go to whichever establishment they want.

[oscar]

Of course people have preferences for certain things...that's well established. But the government's job should not be to pander to the 1% who need special treatment. They can help themselves. And, we could save small business owners a lot of money in advertising by not constantly advertising the same chain restaurants and hotels at every single exit, but rather by just saying "hotels" and "fast food" and letting people go to whichever establishment they want.

I haven't done my own survey, but I suspect it's a lot more than 1%. The billions spent on brand advertising so suggests.

Besides, the costs of the logo signs are borne largely by the businesses. True, that means that at major exits the big brands tend to crowd out the small fry, because they can pay more for space on the signs (if the DOT assigns space that way). But at less crowded exits, you see only or mostly logos for independents. They are probably bargain ads (cheaper and less intrusive than billboards, or high signs) to draw out-of-area travelers who aren't choosy, are adventurous, or just hate the big chains.