Google upset at California proposal regarding self-driving cars

[vdeane]

I'm not entirely sure that's true...in fact, I'd say that couldn't be farther from Google's goal. There might be an underlying benefit for Google in terms of the increased smartphone usage w/o having to operate a vehicle, but I think the primary motive is to remove the variable from the equation (that is, the skill of the driver) and replace it with something that is less prone to errors (that is, a computer). A bunch of these computers, talking to each other, poses a huge safety benefit. As well, there is the additional benefit of providing mobility to those otherwise unable to move freely about their area, and who have no choice but to be chauffeured.

Yeah, and how are you gonna realize that safety benefit?  Sounds like you'd have to outlaw manual operation and make using the self-driving "feature" mandatory.  No thanks.  Driving is fun.  Plus I like to be in control at all times.  And how is one supposed to clinch things if the car navigates for you?  It's hard enough as it is to get driving times on Google Maps when my clinching trips have loops and spurs, or when more points are needed than supported to alter the route.  These are circumstances I encounter all the time.  I have to work around it by leaving bits out and guessing at the rest of the time.  Because of this, I expect clinching trips would become impossible in a self-driving cars.  Plus they'd be so much less fun.  Being a passenger just isn't the same.

Is there a hacking risk? Absolutely. But most cars can already be hacked to be driven without driver intervention. This is not a new issue. There are plenty of examples on Youtube. Ever wonder why we both drive a stick? Can't hack those! I do know, for a fact, that hacking is a huge problem right now without much of a solution, so I'm not sure it's a legitimate worry in terms of allowing non-licenced drivers to operate a self-driving car. Is your comment on hacking related to the OP? Not necessarily, but I have pretended that it is.

As of right now, cars can't navigate on their own, limiting what can be done with hacking.  You can kill or injure someone with it, or break in if you're there.  Self-driving cars will obviously be able to navigate on their own.  Instead of flying blind, they can be directed remotely.

Having a manual option provides another layer of defense by bypassing the auto-pilot.  Plus I've never seen a computer without issues.  What's to happen when a computer gets into a situation it doesn't know how to handle?  Computers, at least at their current state, are incapable of independent thought.  They can only proceed according to a script.

[Brandon]

I'll leap for joy the day that my life and property are not in the hands of distracted, impaired, and unskilled drivers. I can then also use my time for doing something productive, such as sleeping, reading, or merely being alone with my thoughts, compared to the attention needed to properly and safely operate an automobile.

So you'd rather have it in the hands of a distracted, impaired, and unskilled programmer who was probably playing a game while writing code for the car?  Until computers are as reliable as vehicles, I'll trust the humans driving them before I trust some CS major who hasn't seen a shower in 5 years.

[empirestate]

And how is one supposed to clinch things if the car navigates for you?  It's hard enough as it is to get driving times on Google Maps when my clinching trips have loops and spurs, or when more points are needed than supported to alter the route.  These are circumstances I encounter all the time.  I have to work around it by leaving bits out and guessing at the rest of the time.  Because of this, I expect clinching trips would become impossible in a self-driving cars.  Plus they'd be so much less fun.  Being a passenger just isn't the same.

Well, as I've said before, that probably isn't anything to worry about. By the time autonomous cars are the mainstream, you and I and most of us here will be very old people, if we're still around at all. There will be younger generations who will have grown up more exposed to the idea, while the older generations who would reject giving up control of their car won't have to do so, since they'll have faded away naturally by the time anyone would need to.

Also, even though there may not be an option for you to drive the car, who says you can't still tell it where to go? It still has to have a destination, and I don't see why there couldn't be models available that would allow robust input in terms of the navigation.

[AlexandriaVA]

I'll leap for joy the day that my life and property are not in the hands of distracted, impaired, and unskilled drivers. I can then also use my time for doing something productive, such as sleeping, reading, or merely being alone with my thoughts, compared to the attention needed to properly and safely operate an automobile.

So you'd rather have it in the hands of a distracted, impaired, and unskilled programmer who was probably playing a game while writing code for the car?  Until computers are as reliable as vehicles, I'll trust the humans driving them before I trust some CS major who hasn't seen a shower in 5 years.

Yes, I would. I already trust unskilled programmers to fly my planes for me. I'll take the safety rates of flying over automobiles any day of the week.

[AlexandriaVA]

Yeah, and how are you gonna realize that safety benefit?  Sounds like you'd have to outlaw manual operation and make using the self-driving "feature" mandatory.  No thanks.  Driving is fun.  Plus I like to be in control at all times.  And how is one supposed to clinch things if the car navigates for you?  It's hard enough as it is to get driving times on Google Maps when my clinching trips have loops and spurs, or when more points are needed than supported to alter the route.  These are circumstances I encounter all the time.  I have to work around it by leaving bits out and guessing at the rest of the time.  Because of this, I expect clinching trips would become impossible in a self-driving cars.  Plus they'd be so much less fun.  Being a passenger just isn't the same.

Your insurance company won't care less about your hobbies when self-driving becomes an option.

[Brandon]

I'll leap for joy the day that my life and property are not in the hands of distracted, impaired, and unskilled drivers. I can then also use my time for doing something productive, such as sleeping, reading, or merely being alone with my thoughts, compared to the attention needed to properly and safely operate an automobile.

So you'd rather have it in the hands of a distracted, impaired, and unskilled programmer who was probably playing a game while writing code for the car?  Until computers are as reliable as vehicles, I'll trust the humans driving them before I trust some CS major who hasn't seen a shower in 5 years.

Yes, I would. I already trust unskilled programmers to fly my planes for me. I'll take the safety rates of flying over automobiles any day of the week.

And yet, they still have skilled pilots to take over when the programming craps out.

[empirestate]

I'll leap for joy the day that my life and property are not in the hands of distracted, impaired, and unskilled drivers. I can then also use my time for doing something productive, such as sleeping, reading, or merely being alone with my thoughts, compared to the attention needed to properly and safely operate an automobile.

So you'd rather have it in the hands of a distracted, impaired, and unskilled programmer who was probably playing a game while writing code for the car?  Until computers are as reliable as vehicles, I'll trust the humans driving them before I trust some CS major who hasn't seen a shower in 5 years.

Yes, I would. I already trust unskilled programmers to fly my planes for me. I'll take the safety rates of flying over automobiles any day of the week.

And yet, they still have skilled pilots to take over when the programming craps out.

Couple of differences I can think of here, not the least obvious of which is that an autonomous car doesn't fall out of the sky carrying hundreds of people if the programming craps out.

The other, of course, is as you point out: the pilots of airplanes are thoroughly trained and skilled at their profession. If automobile drivers were of comparable aptitude, I don't think we'd even be discussing self-driving cars.

Also, though it isn't a good analogy to take this as a choice between average automobile drivers and terrible computer programmers, I'd still trust the programming over the average driving skill any day. Terrible programmers at least are constrained by their own employability, so they don't have much chance of becoming as numerous as average drivers.

[vdeane]

Yeah, and how are you gonna realize that safety benefit?  Sounds like you'd have to outlaw manual operation and make using the self-driving "feature" mandatory.  No thanks.  Driving is fun.  Plus I like to be in control at all times.  And how is one supposed to clinch things if the car navigates for you?  It's hard enough as it is to get driving times on Google Maps when my clinching trips have loops and spurs, or when more points are needed than supported to alter the route.  These are circumstances I encounter all the time.  I have to work around it by leaving bits out and guessing at the rest of the time.  Because of this, I expect clinching trips would become impossible in a self-driving cars.  Plus they'd be so much less fun.  Being a passenger just isn't the same.

Your insurance company won't care less about your hobbies when self-driving becomes an option.

I don't give a crap what my insurance company cares about.  I'm not giving up driving just for a discount.  But I wasn't thinking of insurance companies (at least not directly)... I was thinking of the government stepping in and making driving illegal and automakers simply not providing the option.

I'll leap for joy the day that my life and property are not in the hands of distracted, impaired, and unskilled drivers. I can then also use my time for doing something productive, such as sleeping, reading, or merely being alone with my thoughts, compared to the attention needed to properly and safely operate an automobile.

So you'd rather have it in the hands of a distracted, impaired, and unskilled programmer who was probably playing a game while writing code for the car?  Until computers are as reliable as vehicles, I'll trust the humans driving them before I trust some CS major who hasn't seen a shower in 5 years.

Yes, I would. I already trust unskilled programmers to fly my planes for me. I'll take the safety rates of flying over automobiles any day of the week.

Flying has a major difference from driving: air traffic control.  EVERYTHING a plane does is supposed to be pre-planned and directed.  NOBODY, not even recreational pilots, can just decide to take a joy ride and go wherever they please, even if they take the established air routes.  That is quite different from highways, where one can just decide to get on the highway as they please, with traffic laws that don't even come close to the amount of regulation air travel has.

[empirestate]

I don't give a crap what my insurance company cares about.  I'm not giving up driving just for a discount.  But I wasn't thinking of insurance companies (at least not directly)... I was thinking of the government stepping in and making driving illegal and automakers simply not providing the option.

I follow you. I'm just saying you needn't worry about giving up driving; it's very unlikely this will come to pass during our lifetimes. And when it does, there won't be a whole lot of people left who have much exposure interest in the then-archaic notion of driving one's own car. But you'll be able to continue to enjoy driving yourself for the rest of your natural life.

As for the government's role, they won't have to do much "stepping in". There will be certain facilities restricted to autonomous cars, just as there are currently facilities reserved only for motorized vehicles. Driving your own car will remain perfectly legal, just as walking currently is. And just as walking is far less often necessary for transportation purposes than it used to be, driving your own car will do likewise. The government won't have to prohibit driving; rather, there will just come to be fewer cases in which driving is an appropriate option.

I can easily see driving as the new smoking: perfectly legal, but there are more and more limits on where you can do it because of its negative impacts on others, along with a decrease in the number of people who want to do it.

[Rothman]

Flying has a major difference from driving: air traffic control.  EVERYTHING a plane does is supposed to be pre-planned and directed.  NOBODY, not even recreational pilots, can just decide to take a joy ride and go wherever they please, even if they take the established air routes.  That is quite different from highways, where one can just decide to get on the highway as they please, with traffic laws that don't even come close to the amount of regulation air travel has.

Not totally true when flying VFR.  Plans can be much more lax under VFR.

[triplemultiplex]

If you really, really like driving, I'm sure in the future there will be places you can go and have a pretend commute, just like old times.

Same way there are places you can go today and ride a steam locomotive train.