Longitudinal grooving

[TXtoNJ]

http://abc13.com/traffic/groovy-solution-to-i-10-freeway-noise/1540193/

They're about to install longitudinal grooves on the Katy Freeway to reduce noise in the high-income neighborhoods close by. What are your thoughts on this technique?

My initial assessment, having driven on these a few times, is that they are noticeably deleterious on handling, and could cause motorcyclists to feel relatively unsafe. I wouldn't be surprised if they cause an uptick in accidents on this stretch (which many people use as a makeshift drag strip already). This will be one of those things that we'll have to spend millions on repairing in the future, I'm thinking.

[peterj920]

Wisconsin has been grooving concrete vertically for the last few years and there hasn't been any increase in accidents.  There is less noise.  In Milwaukee, asphalt uses instead of concrete because it is less noisy.

[jlwm]

I've driven on some stretches of highway in Houston that already have longitudinal grooving (I-45 South near Clear Lake, sections of 610 and 290, sections of the Grand Parkway, and new concrete on I-69 south of the Grand Parkway) and have noticed no decrease in handling ability or ride quality. Longitudinal grooves have been used on overpasses in Houston off and on since the late 70s and I don't think those overpasses are prone to needing more maintenance than overpasses with horizontal grooves or no grooves at all.

[myosh_tino]

http://abc13.com/traffic/groovy-solution-to-i-10-freeway-noise/1540193/

They're about to install longitudinal grooves on the Katy Freeway to reduce noise in the high-income neighborhoods close by. What are your thoughts on this technique?

My initial assessment, having driven on these a few times, is that they are noticeably deleterious on handling, and could cause motorcyclists to feel relatively unsafe. I wouldn't be surprised if they cause an uptick in accidents on this stretch (which many people use as a makeshift drag strip already). This will be one of those things that we'll have to spend millions on repairing in the future, I'm thinking.

Most, if not all concrete freeways in California are grooved longitudinally.

With regards to handling, when CA-85 opened in 1994, initially I experienced some handling issues where my steering wheel would "wobble" ever-so-slightly as I was driving but once the surface was diamond-ground to reduce road noise, the handling issues went away.

[DaBigE]

Wisconsin has been grooving concrete vertically for the last few years and there hasn't been any increase in accidents.

That may be true (although I don't think that's really ever been analyzed), but...

With regards to handling, when CA-85 opened in 1994, initially I experienced some handling issues where my steering wheel would "wobble" ever-so-slightly as I was driving...

This. If you have tires with good grip, the ride quality sucks until either your tires wear or the surface of the road wears. In some cases, the concrete is just broomed rather than grooved and all bets are off whether you'll end up with straight lines or not.

[rarnold]

I have noticed that my car (Dodge Charger, wide stance, wide tires) will shift, or wobble, on longitudinally grooved pavement. Not usually an issue as I live in western Kansas and we have few concrete highways, but traveling in Missouri and Iowa, it is noticeable.

[vdeane]

I have the same issue with my Honda Civic.  I hate longitudinally grooved pavement for that reason.  That, and the sound from the regular concrete adds character, and it's a shame we won't get to hear it as more bridges/roads are replaced.

[triplemultiplex]

Huh, I have never experienced any handling difference between parallel grooves and perpendicular grooves on concrete.  I only notice a difference in the sound of the hum/whine the tires make.

Rutting on the other hand; that's another story.

[slorydn1]

I have noticed that my car (Dodge Charger, wide stance, wide tires) will shift, or wobble, on longitudinally grooved pavement. Not usually an issue as I live in western Kansas and we have few concrete highways, but traveling in Missouri and Iowa, it is noticeable.

Both of my Mustangs used to do that, too. I dumped the OEM Pirellis and shod them both with Michelin Pilot Sport AS/3's and they stopped doing that tram-lining thing.

[AsphaltPlanet]

MTO has retextured the concrete surface on several highways in the GTA over the last year here as well with longitudinal grooving, presumably also to lower the noise.

Ontario is a little bit late to the party, but several sections of recently laid concrete pavement has been longitudinally grooved as well..

[seicer]

Perpendicular grooves adds character for the driver but it's an absolute nightmare for anyone who happens to live or work nearby. If anyone is familiar with Interstate 275 on the southeast side of the Cincinnati metro, the concrete pavement was installed circa 2006 to replace original pavement with asphalt overlays. It was perpendicular grooved but was so loud that it was diamond ground within a year. As someone who experienced it both ways - as a driver and a visitor to a house next to the freeway (and behind a sound wall), it was an annoyance. It was also some of the loudest pavement I've ever driven on.

Ohio has now switched to longitudinal grooving for all concrete surfaces. On certain highway ramps where traction is important, the state will vary the grooving so as to not provide a perfect parallel course.

There have been no studies that concluded longitudinal grooving reduces friction. It has all of the benefits of traditional grooving with less noise.

[vdeane]

It may not reduce friction, but it definitely does something.  My car tires tend to vibrate and sometimes wobble when driving on longitudinally grooved concrete for extended periods of time.

[seicer]

I've been on plenty of perpendicular grooved concrete roads that shake the bolts out of the car, but now we have diamond grinding to smooth those issues out. If it vibrates and wobbles, then those are quality issues that should be corrected with some simple grinding post-construction.

I haven't experienced any major issues but I get where you are coming at. With some early uses of longitudinal grooving, especially in Ohio, simple mistakes really made driving a little concerning - e.g. when the tining isn't parallel to the lines on the road.

[AsphaltPlanet]

things like depth of the grooving, in addition to the spacing of the grooving can have a huge impact on how the road drives.  Though I think most DOT's have gotten pretty good at re-texturing concrete, there is still quite a bit of variability out there.

[Michael]

Two Mondays ago, I was on the Thruway coming back from visiting a friend. When we got to the new concrete section between exits 39 and 40, I remembered this thread.  A few days before, he had low air pressure in a tire, so we went to fill it up.  Two of the tires were too high, so we did all the tires so they'd all be the same.  He noticed a difference in handling after filling the tires.  When we were on the concrete section a few days later, I asked him about the handling again, and he noticed a slight wobble on the longitudinal tined concrete.

[vdeane]

I hate the vibrations on Thruway concrete.  I remember in 2013-2014 I had three flat tires in the space of a year.  The vibration on the concrete is VERY similar to what a flat tire feels like, and can be quite scary, especially if you aren't expecting it.

Sound can be interesting too.  NYSDOT and NYSTA have ground the sound out of most concrete roads here, so driving in other states it can make one wonder if the sound is the road or one's car (although, after I got used to it, I-99 near State College reminded me of what the Thruway sounded like between exits 44 and 45 when I was five).

Yeah, I'm a bit paranoid about car issues.  It's a side effect of the fact that I drove a car that was probably old enough to vote until July 2014 (and that car spent all but its last month and a half living in the Lake Ontario Snowbelt).

[seicer]

Try driving I-86 at Corning and look at the difference in concrete vibrations and noise in just a few years! One is a circa 1985 segment, the other is from 1999?

[vdeane]

Not any more.  The 1985 segment is being rehabilitated with asphalt.