Breezewood

[Avalanchez71]

I have another solution. Dismantle the PTC and remove the tolls off of the Turnpike.  Then move to have PennDOT as the successor agency.  Maybe the disconnects can be fixed.

[jeffandnicole]

I have another solution. Dismantle the PTC and remove the tolls off of the Turnpike.  Then move to have PennDOT as the successor agency.  Maybe the disconnects can be fixed.

So remove a significant funding source for PennDOT, PTC and the transit agencies?  And how do you get the money to fix the interchange that's not even available today?

[Avalanchez71]

See Breezeway is here to stay.

[Brandon]

I have another solution. Dismantle the PTC and remove the tolls off of the Turnpike.  Then move to have PennDOT as the successor agency.  Maybe the disconnects can be fixed.

So remove a significant funding source for PennDOT, PTC and the transit agencies?  And how do you get the money to fix the interchange that's not even available today?

That's what I keep trying to remind everyone who wants to remove tolls on every toll road out there.  How are you going to pay for it?

[hbelkins]

I have another solution. Dismantle the PTC and remove the tolls off of the Turnpike.  Then move to have PennDOT as the successor agency.  Maybe the disconnects can be fixed.

So remove a significant funding source for PennDOT, PTC and the transit agencies?  And how do you get the money to fix the interchange that's not even available today?

That's what I keep trying to remind everyone who wants to remove tolls on every toll road out there.  How are you going to pay for it?

Kentucky did it. The intent was always to retire the tolls after the construction bonds were paid off. The tolls were never intended to pay for maintenance.

[_Simon]

..........it's completely within our power as a message board to get the right people's attention on this issue by leveraging the power of the masses,  even if no one involved lives near Breezewood.
SM-G955U

Maybe it's cynicism forged by age, but I lived through the '60's -- and all I can say about "leveraging the power of the masses" is easier said than done!  It's all in the follow-through -- and that tends to be subject to dissipation in short order (it happened back then -- and was called the '70s).

But Millenials are well known for taking great initiative to do something big, even when it doesn't affect their personal lives in any way.
[/sarc]

Absolutely we do, have you not seen the video I produced on the matter just above? 

SM-G955U

[Mr_Northside]

If and when the Penna Turnpike goes totally ticket-less and becomes Ez-Pass and Toll By Plate only, I think the pressure to do some sort of direct connection of the I-70s will increase tenfold because "Why do I still have to drive in a big 5-minute circle if the toll booths are gone?"

It might bring more awareness/pressure - but I doubt it would be tenfold.  Just a feeling.  (Also, as I mentioned upthread, the pressure really needs to be on a local level)

The same question will play out all over the PA Turnpike, because of the Trumpet interchanges used.  Many people need to circle around to get to various interchanges today. While these issues aren't Breezewoods, the PA Turnpike sees what improvements can be done to make it easier on travelers at busy interchanges.  For example, they already made it easier for people at the Lansdale Interchange so they wouldn't have to circle all the way around.

While some of them are "tight", the trumpets aren't that bad.  Lansdale might be the exception to the rule for quite some time as well concerning modifying existing interchanges (though Beaver Valley is planned on being redone as a diamond in a couple of years (no toll plaza there anymore) - and I'm curious as to what they have in mind for Irwin)

[Brandon]

I have another solution. Dismantle the PTC and remove the tolls off of the Turnpike.  Then move to have PennDOT as the successor agency.  Maybe the disconnects can be fixed.

So remove a significant funding source for PennDOT, PTC and the transit agencies?  And how do you get the money to fix the interchange that's not even available today?

That's what I keep trying to remind everyone who wants to remove tolls on every toll road out there.  How are you going to pay for it?

Kentucky did it. The intent was always to retire the tolls after the construction bonds were paid off. The tolls were never intended to pay for maintenance.

And, IMHO, Kentucky made a big mistake in the long run.  Tolls could have been used for maintenance as well as expansion.

[hbelkins]

I have another solution. Dismantle the PTC and remove the tolls off of the Turnpike.  Then move to have PennDOT as the successor agency.  Maybe the disconnects can be fixed.

So remove a significant funding source for PennDOT, PTC and the transit agencies?  And how do you get the money to fix the interchange that's not even available today?

That's what I keep trying to remind everyone who wants to remove tolls on every toll road out there.  How are you going to pay for it?

Kentucky did it. The intent was always to retire the tolls after the construction bonds were paid off. The tolls were never intended to pay for maintenance.

And, IMHO, Kentucky made a big mistake in the long run.  Tolls could have been used for maintenance as well as expansion.

You're definitely in the minority in that thought. A proposal was floated a few years ago to reinstitute tolls on the Mountain Parkway, and a certain famous Keith Moon utterance could describe the reaction.

[Beltway]

That's what I keep trying to remind everyone who wants to remove tolls on every toll road out there.  How are you going to pay for it?

Kentucky did it. The intent was always to retire the tolls after the construction bonds were paid off. The tolls were never intended to pay for maintenance.

And, IMHO, Kentucky made a big mistake in the long run.  Tolls could have been used for maintenance as well as expansion.

You're definitely in the minority in that thought. A proposal was floated a few years ago to reinstitute tolls on the Mountain Parkway, and a certain famous Keith Moon utterance could describe the reaction.

Time will tell.   Virginia detolled a bunch of major highways and bridges and tunnels, between 1976 and 1995, I count 8 in the Hampton Roads area and one in the Richmond-Petersburg area.  Since then to finance major expansions they have retolled 2 tunnels and one bridge.  More have been discussed.

[Avalanchez71]

Mention the word toll a highway in Tennessee and you would be thrown out of office.

[Rothman]

That is why they call them public private partnerships now (PPPs).

[Beltway]

That is why they call them public private partnerships now (PPPs).

Many tollroads are administered by public sector agencies, and are not public-private partnerships.

[Rothman]

I was responding to the previous post.  Also see "monetizing" the infrastructure.

Also keep in mind that public authorities are not government agencies.  They are their own organizations spun off from government with government retaining some control through appointees.  However, they do not report directly either to Governors or Legislatures.

[Beltway]

I was responding to the previous post.  Also see "monetizing" the infrastructure.
Also keep in mind that public authorities are not government agencies.  They are their own organizations spun off from government with government retaining some control through appointees.  However, they do not report directly either to Governors or Legislatures.

That depends on the authority and the state.  Many are small state agencies that were created by act of the general assembly.

One example --
In 1954, the Virginia General Assembly (state legislature) created the Chesapeake Bay Ferry District and the Chesapeake Bay Ferry Commission as the governing body of the District; later named the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel District (CBBTD), and the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel Commission.  The CBBTD is a public agency and it is a legal subdivision of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com/CBBT.html#Ferry

[storm2k]

That is why they call them public private partnerships now (PPPs).

I think in another 10-15 years, we will be looking at P3's as the "what were we thinking" portion of road building in the early part of this century.

[Beltway]

That is why they call them public private partnerships now (PPPs).

I think in another 10-15 years, we will be looking at P3's as the "what were we thinking" portion of road building in the early part of this century.

Actually in the last 30 years they have been becoming more and more prevalent all over the world for building highway projects.

[Rothman]

I was responding to the previous post.  Also see "monetizing" the infrastructure.
Also keep in mind that public authorities are not government agencies.  They are their own organizations spun off from government with government retaining some control through appointees.  However, they do not report directly either to Governors or Legislatures.

That depends on the authority and the state.  Many are small state agencies that were created by act of the general assembly.

One example --
In 1954, the Virginia General Assembly (state legislature) created the Chesapeake Bay Ferry District and the Chesapeake Bay Ferry Commission as the governing body of the District; later named the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel District (CBBTD), and the Chesapeake Bay Bridge and Tunnel Commission.  The CBBTD is a public agency and it is a legal subdivision of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

http://www.roadstothefuture.com/CBBT.html#Ferry

Au contraire:  When I was an intern at FHWA, I took a tour at CBBT (including standing in the exhaust duct for one of their tunnels) and got an extensive orientation to how they operate: They have their own court, their own police -- again, although they were created by VA, they are almost autonomous and are organized similarly to what I described -- heck, even moreso than NYSTA!

Had to laugh at you picking that particular example because it doesn't prove your point and is only one of a couple examples I know from very hands-on experience.

That said, you are correct that not every toll road is run by a public authority.  A better example is how the operation of the Massachusetts Turnpike is now conducted under MassDOT due to some extraordinary maneuvering by then-Governor Romney.

[Rothman]

That is why they call them public private partnerships now (PPPs).

I think in another 10-15 years, we will be looking at P3's as the "what were we thinking" portion of road building in the early part of this century.

Actually in the last 30 years they have been becoming more and more prevalent all over the world for building highway projects.

Of course.  Legalizing corruption is a very popular thing to do for those that benefit.

[Brandon]

That is why they call them public private partnerships now (PPPs).

I think in another 10-15 years, we will be looking at P3's as the "what were we thinking" portion of road building in the early part of this century.

Actually in the last 30 years they have been becoming more and more prevalent all over the world for building highway projects.

Of course.  Legalizing corruption is a very popular thing to do for those that benefit.

It's easy when you have a property tax attorney as speaker of your state house and he writes laws so he makes money.
/Oh, wait a minute...

[vdeane]

That is why they call them public private partnerships now (PPPs).

I think in another 10-15 years, we will be looking at P3's as the "what were we thinking" portion of road building in the early part of this century.

Actually in the last 30 years they have been becoming more and more prevalent all over the world for building highway projects.

I would think the debacle with respect to I-69 in Indiana as well as the bankruptcies of the Indiana Toll Road and TX 130 would show why PPPs are a bad idea.

(personal opinion)

[Flint1979]

Breezewood is actually the start of the bypass around the abandoned Pennsylvania Turnpike. When you are traveling eastbound on I-70 the ramp that goes to Breezewood was part of the mainline Turnpike before it was abandoned and bypassed. So the Turnpike at one time was closer to Breezewood than it is now.

This right here is where the abandoned Turnpike kept going but was bypassed due to the need to bypass the Sideling Hill Tunnel and Rays Hill Tunnel. The Turnpike passes over the eastern end of the Sideling Hill Tunnel.

[02 Park Ave]

At Breezewood, could E-Z Pass only ramps be built between the PA Turnpike and I-70 while retaining the existing ramps for cash paying/ticket taking motorists?  I believe they have a somewhat similar arrangement now at Lansdale on the Northeast Extension.

[Alps]

Discussion of public-private partnerships has been moved to General Highway Talk. Please keep it there and let's return this thread to its original course.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22159.0

[_Simon]

So to the folks that keep thinking Breezewood will never be fixed or that the businesses are going to always prevail,  I ask,  "you know this has happened before right?"

No, this isn't an upside down Breezewood,  this is Morgantown which had a virtually identical "problem" to Breezewood until 1996 when I-176 was directly connected to I-76 in addition to PA-10, the road the freeway used to end at and force people over a block or two to get into 76.

I'm sure the political forces at work are much different (since people actually live around here, unlike Breezewood, other the people that work on "the strip"), but this wasn't even a gap in a major 2di like the I-70 gap, and seems to have been ousted over 20 years ago.   

SM-G955U