Why is US-1/US-9 allowed to be US-1&9?

[roadman65]

These here are impressive!  Come to think of it I seen some when traveling I-25 in NM and on Dale Sandersn's US ends site.

Also I remember now that the old Egg Harbor Circle in Egg Harbor, NJ near the ACY had something similar to it for US 40 & 322.  I took photos of that, but Sam's Club lost my photos, so I never got them to share or even see for myself.

[_Simon]

As a traffic engineer with many projects in North Jersey

Ooohh!  Can you link us to some signage that you've personally screwed up and/or has an interesting story behind it and/or you've hidden an Easter egg in?

[NJRoadfan]

Ooohh!  Can you link us to some signage that you've personally screwed up and/or has an interesting story behind it and/or you've hidden an Easter egg in?

See: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9156.0

I don't know if it was akotchi, but I recall speaking with the traffic engineer (I think it was Kevin Sylvester) who did some of the signs for the NJ-21/US-46/NJ-20 mess. The US-46 west exit for NJ-20 has a disaster of a BGS seen here: http://goo.gl/maps/Cx3zS

Note the skip lines added into the NJ-20 part of the arrow, its a one lane ramp! At one point the signs in development had US-46's arrow heading due left and crossing under the big straight arrow!

[_Simon]

Note the the skip lines added into the NJ-20 part of the arrow, its a one lane ramp! At one point the signs in development had US-46's arrow heading due left and crossing under the big straight arrow!

Not to mention that there shouldn't be line breaks in "SOUTH/GSP" or "Crooks/Ave" and I also don't like the mixed-case "To" (assuming it's even legal)

[NJRoadfan]

How about squeezing two county routes into one shield? Even has a bonus CR NJ-173 to link in with the other thread! http://goo.gl/maps/KVopJ

[akotchi]

Ooohh!  Can you link us to some signage that you've personally screwed up and/or has an interesting story behind it and/or you've hidden an Easter egg in?

See: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9156.0

I don't know if it was akotchi, but I recall speaking with the traffic engineer (I think it was Kevin Sylvester) who did some of the signs for the NJ-21/US-46/NJ-20 mess. The US-46 west exit for NJ-20 has a disaster of a BGS seen here: http://goo.gl/maps/Cx3zS

Note the skip lines added into the NJ-20 part of the arrow, its a one lane ramp! At one point the signs in development had US-46's arrow heading due left and crossing under the big straight arrow!

I wasn't involved in that one.

[dgolub]

As a traffic engineer with many projects in North Jersey and who has overseen the design of "1&9" and "1-9" route markers in signing, I can say that the density of numbered routes in this area makes the "old" way of signing, i.e. using cardinal direction, "1" shield, and separate "9" shield, very cumbersome, both to the designer and to the driver, especially around the Airport (as noted upthread).  Add "Local", "Express" and "Truck" to the mix, and it really gets interesting . . .

US 1-9 seems like it could be mistaken for US 19 if someone isn't paying all that close attention.

[roadman]

The Simon Mall developing company that owns many shopping malls, has US 17 & 92 leaving the Parking lot of the Florida Mall in Orlando, FL as 17/92 in a shield.  In Central Florida both routes multiplexed seem to be considered as one road: Seventeen Ninetytwo and do not even think many think of it as two separate routes but as one as it is a long way to the point (especially from Orlando) where the two routes split from most of Central Florida.  In fact where US 17 & 92 are both concurrent with US 441 and SR 50, they are not even realized by many.  Orange Blossom Trail is  just US 441 or Colonial Drive is SR 50 where US 17 & 92 come in.

However, if both were one digit numbers you might see FDOT combining two route numbers into one like Simon Malls did.

Back to NJ, I think if US 202 & 206 in Somerset County were not 3 digit numbers NJDOT would consider them both for one shield as both routes equally share the limelight in their 7 mile overlap.  Further south you have the US 40 & 322 overlap where most consider the two routes as just "Route 40."  In this case you would never see it in one shield even if they both were one digits, and as far as US 130 & NJ 33 goes it could never happen for obvious reasons.

Ah yes, Simon Malls.  They convinced MassDOT to change the name of Solomon Pond Road in Marlborough to Solomon Pond Mall Road - which was accomplished by revising the existing guide signs on I-290 with some of the worst overlays I've ever seen (letters far too close together).

[akotchi]

As a traffic engineer with many projects in North Jersey and who has overseen the design of "1&9" and "1-9" route markers in signing, I can say that the density of numbered routes in this area makes the "old" way of signing, i.e. using cardinal direction, "1" shield, and separate "9" shield, very cumbersome, both to the designer and to the driver, especially around the Airport (as noted upthread).  Add "Local", "Express" and "Truck" to the mix, and it really gets interesting . . .

US 1-9 seems like it could be mistaken for US 19 if someone isn't paying all that close attention.

Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County).  I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it.  Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue.  U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.

[Henry]

Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)

[Pete from Boston]

Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)

I don't think you can single NJ out for laziness for falling prey to the same pressures as any other state with a highway revolt on its hands.

I personally don't think of or say the "and" in this combination.  It's always been "one nine" to me (and thus "truck one nine" as well).

[Zeffy]

(After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)

It wasn't necessarily the state that prevented it from being built, more-so the vast opposition from the people whose homes and properties would be in the way of construction. (That and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, since building the Somerset Freeway would probably make less people use the Turnpike.)

[jeffandnicole]

Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)

Other states didn't complete their portions of 95 and other interstates as well.  And wouldn't it be harder to create the US "1&9" sign, rather than use the multitudes of US 1 & US 9 signs that the state already has available?

[akotchi]

Not hard to make at all . . . it is considered a 3-digit route (1-9), so a standard 3dus blank is used.  By now, as common as 322, 202 or 206.

[Pete from Boston]

In fact, I always thought it was innovative of NJ to convert the old 1&9 (business) to 139 because they look somewhat similar.  This is a case of clearly engineering to human needs rather than in spite of them.

[Brandon]

In fact, I always thought it was innovative of NJ to convert the old 1&9 (business) to 139 because they look somewhat similar.  This is a case of clearly engineering to human needs rather than in spite of them.

Not unusual.  Illinois did likewise with IL-38.  IL-38 was formerly US-30A.  Pronounce it, and you'll see why.

[roadman65]

I like the significance of VT 279.  I think it is neat the way they took the fact that road goes between routes 7 and 9 and came up with Two Seven Nine.

139, I must say, is original as it just replaces the amperstand with a "3" which from a distance could be read as one anyway.

[dgolub]

Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County).  I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it.  Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue.  U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.

Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route.  If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.

[Brandon]

Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County).  I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it.  Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue.  U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.

Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route.  If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.

They don't know the difference?  I guess it depends on the state then.  Not every state's residents use "route" or "highway" before every route number (a la Wisconsin where every damn thing is "highway" including the interstates).  Some actually use a separate designator for each class of route (Michigan is one - M, US, or I).

[_Simon]

It wasn't necessarily the state that prevented it from being built, more-so the vast opposition from the people whose homes and properties would be in the way of construction. (That and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, since building the Somerset Freeway would probably make less people use the Turnpike.)

1.  The state has the right to condemn property for public use by paying a reasonable amount of compensation.  Look at what I-78 and I-280 did to Newark.  You don't build the entire turnpike in 24 months by waiting for people to move or agree with the plans.
2.  The amount of traffic duplicated by the route is significantly less than many other major interstates built near the toll roads, including I-295 as an extreme example.

[Pete from Boston]

Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County).  I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it.  Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue.  U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.

Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route.  If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.

I know that as I get older I'm increasingly in the minority, but I barely think of NJ 19 as existing at all.  Deep in my gut somewhere that's still NJ 20 (and yes, in my gut there are also Datsuns driving on it).

[roadman65]

Interesting point, as there is a state route 19, though not overly close (in Passaic County).  I'm not quite so sure, but I am probably too close to the matter to be objective about it.  Consistent use of a 3-digit shield and an em dash in between would lead me to think this would not be as much of an issue.  U.S. 19 is also no where close to this area.

Most drivers don't know the difference between a US route and a state route.  If someone is following a map with US 1 on it, they could think that they're looking at Route 19, not Routes 1 and 9.

I knew somebody in High School who when I told him to use Route 1 & 9 he actually thought that I meant Route 19.  I tried explaining to him what I meant and he found it impossible to believe that two routes can actually concur.     I am sure there are some people that still do not know what you would mean when you mention two different routes as one single route number.

[Alps]

Probably because the people running things were too lazy to put up individual signs, and decided instead to combine the two routes together. (After all, this is the same state that refused to build the Somerset Freeway, and is paying a huge price because of it.)

I don't think you can single NJ out for laziness for falling prey to the same pressures as any other state with a highway revolt on its hands.

I personally don't think of or say the "and" in this combination.  It's always been "one nine" to me (and thus "truck one nine" as well).

Locals say "1-n-9."

[Pete from Boston]

Locals say "1-n-9."

I learned it as a local, and it could be that I learned to (verbally and mentally) slur the "n" out of existence.  This should not be taken as another example of laziness in NJ, but rather efficiency.

[jeffandnicole]

It wasn't necessarily the state that prevented it from being built, more-so the vast opposition from the people whose homes and properties would be in the way of construction. (That and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority, since building the Somerset Freeway would probably make less people use the Turnpike.)

1.  The state has the right to condemn property for public use by paying a reasonable amount of compensation.  Look at what I-78 and I-280 did to Newark.  You don't build the entire turnpike in 24 months by waiting for people to move or agree with the plans.

While they do have the right, it's a last resort.  And the environment in the 1940's and 50's was way different than in today's environment.

When they were looking at reconstructing I-295 thru the 42/76 interchange, they first looked at all the possibilities, including straight-lining 295 right thru the area with a 70 mph design speed. That would have taken out 170 or so homes and businesses.  The idea wasn't even pursued.  The selected alternative is removing 12 homes and businesses, and some of those homes will be rebuilt in the same area on available land.

If the straight-lining alignment had been pursued in 1950, it probably would have been done.  But it was a different time, and the overall design indicates that the assumption would be the majority of traffic using 295 would head towards I-76 and Philadelphia/Camden.  In today's world, a large portion of travel involves 295 and 42.  I-76 headed towards Philly is rarely congested during normal rush hours (although EZ Pass on the bridges is probably the main reason for that).