HAWK at a fire station

[kphoger]

https://i.imgur.com/H2zC3Pk.png

If the signal is dark, then I ain't stopping no matter what!
Kids in the street be damned!

Signs cannot override the right-of-way of a pedestrian crossing in a marked/unmarked crosswalk, at least in WA.

While I do understand that, I also think it's a bad idea to post regulatory signs telling people not to stop.

[jakeroot]

https://i.imgur.com/H2zC3Pk.png

If the signal is dark, then I ain't stopping no matter what!
Kids in the street be damned!

Signs cannot override the right-of-way of a pedestrian crossing in a marked/unmarked crosswalk, at least in WA.

While I do understand that, I also think it's a bad idea to post regulatory signs telling people not to stop.

There is precedent. "Right turn permitted without stopping" is a fairly common sign that still requires drivers to stop for pedestrians.

I don't mind the "assume everyone is a moron" line of thinking, but you have to give drivers some credit. No one is going to willingly mow down a pedestrian just because a sign tells them they don't have to stop.

Also don't forget that, as the law remains right now, you are legally required to stop at dark ramp meters. I'm trying to think of a sign to overcome this shortfall.

[SignBridge]

I've never seen anyone stop at a dark ramp-metering signal. It seems like the public actually understands that they only operate during certain hours. But ya' wonder why they couldn't have a flashing yellow when they're not in use. That would have clarified the situation.

[hotdogPi]

I've never seen anyone stop at a dark ramp-metering signal. It seems like the public actually understands that they only operate during certain hours. But ya' wonder why they couldn't have a flashing yellow when they're not in use. That would have clarified the situation.

This is what flashing green should mean, with flashing greens also being used in other situations with no cross street (as is the case in a few places in Massachusetts).

[SignBridge]

If I remember right, a flashing-green in Mass. meant a pre-emption activated signal i.e. a crosswalk or fire-station signal. Is that still true?

[hotdogPi]

If I remember right, a flashing-green in Mass. meant a pre-emption activated signal i.e. a crosswalk or fire-station signal. Is that still true?

Yes, but they're a lot less common now. HAWKs seem to be for crosswalks and sometimes fire stations, so it's the same situation.

However, I didn't realize that I was quoting a post on ramp meters. Flashing green does not apply there. (Actually, it could, based on jakeroot's post below.)

[SignBridge]

No problem 1. It's all good.

[SignBridge]

Where did the name HAWK signals come from anyway? The Manual calls them Pedestrian Hybrid Beacons and Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons.

[hotdogPi]

Where did the name HAWK signals come from anyway? The Manual calls them Pedestrian Hybrid Beacons and Emergency Vehicle Hybrid Beacons.

From Wikipedia:

High-Intensity Activated crossWalK beacon

Not as bad as the DUKW acronym, but close.

[jakeroot]

Flashing greens would be a great way to indicate a part-time signal (ramp meters, ped crossings, etc).

The flashing green, besides its (now limited) use in Massachusetts, has wide use in British Columbia. It's still installed today...

https://youtu.be/n_h72zbbgCY

[SignBridge]

And could you tell us again, what does a flashing-green mean in Canada?

[jakeroot]

And could you tell us again, what does a flashing-green mean in Canada?

In Ontario, it formerly meant "protected turn", though that is now reserved for green arrows (country-wide).

In British Columbia (modern usage), it means "ped activated crossing". Typically used at cross-streets with stop signs. BC is the only province to use it for this purpose. Apparently confuses other Canadians when they visit.

[kphoger]

And could you tell us again, what does a flashing-green mean in Canada?

In Ontario, it formerly meant "protected turn", though that is now reserved for green arrows (country-wide).

In British Columbia (modern usage), it means "ped activated crossing". Typically used at cross-streets with stop signs. BC is the only province to use it for this purpose. Apparently confuses other Canadians when they visit.

Across our other border, a flashing green in Mexico means the green phase is about to end and will soon turn to yellow.

[Big John]

I've never seen anyone stop at a dark ramp-metering signal. It seems like the public actually understands that they only operate during certain hours. But ya' wonder why they couldn't have a flashing yellow when they're not in use. That would have clarified the situation.

Minnesota does it that way.  And Wisconsin uses a solid green when not in operation.

[jakeroot]

Across our other border, a flashing green in Mexico means the green phase is about to end and will soon turn to yellow.

Ah yes. I think we know what the FHWA thinks about that type of signal.

I've never seen anyone stop at a dark ramp-metering signal. It seems like the public actually understands that they only operate during certain hours. But ya' wonder why they couldn't have a flashing yellow when they're not in use. That would have clarified the situation.

Minnesota does it that way.  And Wisconsin uses a solid green when not in operation.

Though ramp meters in Washington State are dark when not in use, they do go green for a while before turning on.

[MNHighwayMan]

I've never seen anyone stop at a dark ramp-metering signal. It seems like the public actually understands that they only operate during certain hours. But ya' wonder why they couldn't have a flashing yellow when they're not in use. That would have clarified the situation.

Minnesota does it that way.  And Wisconsin uses a solid green when not in operation.

Though ramp meters in Washington State are dark when not in use, they do go green for a while before turning on.

You'd think they'd be lit all the time, because aren't dark signals meant to be treated like a stop sign? I'm not a fan of the idea that signals should be treated any differently just because they're being used slightly differently.

[kphoger]

I've never seen anyone stop at a dark ramp-metering signal. It seems like the public actually understands that they only operate during certain hours. But ya' wonder why they couldn't have a flashing yellow when they're not in use. That would have clarified the situation.

Minnesota does it that way.  And Wisconsin uses a solid green when not in operation.

Though ramp meters in Washington State are dark when not in use, they do go green for a while before turning on.

You'd think they'd be lit all the time, because aren't dark signals meant to be treated like a stop sign? I'm not a fan of the idea that signals should be treated any differently just because they're being used slightly differently.

I think the difference between an intersection and an on-ramp is fundamental enough to warrant that.

[MNHighwayMan]

You'd think they'd be lit all the time, because aren't dark signals meant to be treated like a stop sign? I'm not a fan of the idea that signals should be treated any differently just because they're being used slightly differently.

I think the difference between an intersection and an on-ramp is fundamental enough to warrant that.

At the same time, it cannot be that difficult to set the ramp meters to flash yellow when not in operation.

[jakeroot]

You'd think they'd be lit all the time, because aren't dark signals meant to be treated like a stop sign? I'm not a fan of the idea that signals should be treated any differently just because they're being used slightly differently.

I think the difference between an intersection and an on-ramp is fundamental enough to warrant that.

At the same time, it cannot be that difficult to set the ramp meters to flash yellow when not in operation.

WA just follows west coast practice. CA and OR both use dark signals. Pretty sure most states do.

Yes there is a fundamental flaw with this design as you are technically required to stop. But it's understood in practice that you don't. I was worried that, because drivers encounter dark ramp meters far more than dark four-way signals, they might fall into the practice of blowing through dark signals. Hence this sign that I was crafting on the last page, that could be used at HAWKs and ramp meters.

[MNHighwayMan]

Thing is, I'm all for removing ambiguity, even if most people understand the practice. I'm also for consistency, and I feel there's a problem with being inconsistent on the meaning of dark signals depending on their application.

[jakeroot]

Thing is, I'm all for removing ambiguity, even if most people understand the practice. I'm also for consistency, and I feel there's a problem with being inconsistent on the meaning of dark signals depending on their application.

I don't disagree. But even if we fix ramp meters, we still have HAWKs which are intentionally designed to be dark. Though I would prefer an alternative to the HAWK that wasn't dark when not in use, versus my sign. As mentioned above, a flashing green could come in handy at ramp meters and HAWKs. Flashing green could mean "part time signal" or something like that.

For the record, WSDOT utilizes back plates at meters, but does not use the reflective tape around the edge as they normally would, as you aren't supposed to see ramp meters unless they're on. I've seen some HAWKs with reflective tape around the backplate...I think somebody is reading the rule for that reflective tape wrong.

[MNHighwayMan]

Furthermore, after some reading, I think leaving ramp meters dark is actually a MUTCD violation.

Standard: When a traffic control signal is not in operation, such as before it is placed in service, during seasonal shutdowns, or when it is not desirable to operate the traffic control signal, the signal faces shall be covered, turned, or taken down to clearly indicate that the traffic control signal is not in operation.

To the more on-topic subject of HAWK signals, I've never liked them in the first place. I don't get what makes them superior over a standard three-color signal.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

In my part of NY, I would absolutely say the majority of drivers do not know you're supposed to stop for a dark signal; and in my experience in power outages around 80% of cars will blow through if they feel like they're on the major road (of course major and minor road can be subjective). It's pathetic how poorly trained the drivers are in this country.

[vdeane]

In my part of NY, I would absolutely say the majority of drivers do not know you're supposed to stop for a dark signal; and in my experience in power outages around 80% of cars will blow through if they feel like they're on the major road (of course major and minor road can be subjective). It's pathetic how poorly trained the drivers are in this country.

Yeah, it's atrocious.  I remember one time I had to make a left turn on a four lane road with heavy traffic when the power was out.  Literally nobody was stopping, so after a couple minutes I had to just go, horn blaring and praying that people would actually stop rather than hit me.

[MNHighwayMan]

In my part of NY, I would absolutely say the majority of drivers do not know you're supposed to stop for a dark signal; and in my experience in power outages around 80% of cars will blow through if they feel like they're on the major road (of course major and minor road can be subjective). It's pathetic how poorly trained the drivers are in this country.

Yeah, it's atrocious.  I remember one time I had to make a left turn on a four lane road with heavy traffic when the power was out.  Literally nobody was stopping, so after a couple minutes I had to just go, horn blaring and praying that people would actually stop rather than hit me.

Doesn't even have to be dark. Good luck trying to go through a four-way flashing red anywhere around here.