HAWK at a fire station

[jakeroot]

I'm starting to think the best option might be no sign at all.  I don't think any of these latest signs really make anything clearer than the lights themselves.

I actually agree. But drivers definitely don't understand the different phases of the HAWK. Something is necessary.

To stop using HAWK signals.

HAWKs still allow you to move off after the initial stop, so there's a flow advantage. Just wish there was something more intuitive.

Standard flashing red after the solid red, on a regular RYG signal.

I don't believe that there's any advantage to driver comprehension by using a standard signal instead of a HAWK signal if the actual indications remain the same.  A solid red is still a solid red, a flashing red is still a flashing red.  The only major difference is the dark phase, which I'm not convinced is a problem either.

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

[Amtrakprod]

I'm starting to think the best option might be no sign at all.  I don't think any of these latest signs really make anything clearer than the lights themselves.

I actually agree. But drivers definitely don't understand the different phases of the HAWK. Something is necessary.

To stop using HAWK signals.

HAWKs still allow you to move off after the initial stop, so there's a flow advantage. Just wish there was something more intuitive.

Standard flashing red after the solid red, on a regular RYG signal.

I don't believe that there's any advantage to driver comprehension by using a standard signal instead of a HAWK signal if the actual indications remain the same.  A solid red is still a solid red, a flashing red is still a flashing red.  The only major difference is the dark phase, which I'm not convinced is a problem either.

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

I agree with Jake, based on observations, as shown on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUWKi2CmyU4
I think using the double red flash is better

[kphoger]

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

Yeah, I would prefer it if the two red balls flashed in unison rather than alternating, and I agree that would aid driver comprehension.

[Amtrakprod]

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

Yeah, I would prefer it if the two red balls flashed in unison rather than alternating, and I agree that would aid driver comprehension.

That's what I'm saying, like in this video:

[kphoger]

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

Yeah, I would prefer it if the two red balls flashed in unison rather than alternating, and I agree that would aid driver comprehension.

That's what I'm saying, like in this video:

Except that still nobody went ahead on flashing red in that video either.

[SignBridge]

That set-up in Phoenix might or might not be more effective, but I'm surprised that they would install it in a way that is not compliant with the MUTCD. BTW, it was steady red for 10 seconds and flashing-red for 20 seconds.

But either way, I still think HAWK beacons will be confusing to drivers, and we would be better off with standard traffic signals that everybody recognizes and understands. Creating a new form of traffic signals was and is a bad idea.

The current generation of engineers who wrote the 2009 MUTCD seemed to have a knack for creating new problems where there weren't any before (in my opinion). Besides HAWK beacons look at the fiasco they've created with the overhead signing of option lane exits on freeways. They like reinventing the wheel.

[roadfro]

The California signal posted earlier is operationally identical to a HAWK. This includes requiring each car to come to a full stop before proceeding during the flashing red (ped clearance) phase, even if the peds have cleared.

A Pelican crossing allows drivers to yield during the flashing yellow (ped clearance) phase, so it is a bit friendlier to vehicle operations.

I prefer the Pelican. However, I can see one drawback in that if peds don't follow their signals then there could be sudden ped/vehicle conflicts...

[mrsman]

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

Yeah, I would prefer it if the two red balls flashed in unison rather than alternating, and I agree that would aid driver comprehension.

That's what I'm saying, like in this video:

Except that still nobody went ahead on flashing red in that video either.

IMO, the bigger problem is still having some cars run the red light at the beginning of the cycle.  I think that a HAWK light is a surprise.  Many drivers drive on through because for the most part, these signals are dark and they just ride through and never expect them to be red.  But if the dormant phase were green instead of dark, then drivers would treat them like a regular signal.

During the FDW phase, drivers can see either flashing yellow (pelican) or flashing red (California style).

green>yellow>red>flashing yellow>green.  Optional Signage:  Yield to peds on flashing yellow.

green>yellow>red>flashing red>green  Optional Signage: Stop for peds on flashing red.  Proceed when clear.

And of course the signage could have some level of symbols to cut down on wordage.  I'm thinking along the lines of the "left turn yield on green" that you some times see at doghouses to encourage people to make permitted left turns.  (And to this day, I still see unaware drivers who believe that they are not allowed to turn left when the green arrow terminates, even if it's clear.)

[jeffandnicole]

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

Yeah, I would prefer it if the two red balls flashed in unison rather than alternating, and I agree that would aid driver comprehension.

That's what I'm saying, like in this video:

Except that still nobody went ahead on flashing red in that video either.

IMO, the bigger problem is still having some cars run the red light at the beginning of the cycle.  I think that a HAWK light is a surprise.  Many drivers drive on through because for the most part, these signals are dark and they just ride through and never expect them to be red.  But if the dormant phase were green instead of dark, then drivers would treat them like a regular signal.

During the FDW phase, drivers can see either flashing yellow (pelican) or flashing red (California style).

green>yellow>red>flashing yellow>green.  Optional Signage:  Yield to peds on flashing yellow.

green>yellow>red>flashing red>green  Optional Signage: Stop for peds on flashing red.  Proceed when clear.

And of course the signage could have some level of symbols to cut down on wordage.  I'm thinking along the lines of the "left turn yield on green" that you some times see at doghouses to encourage people to make permitted left turns.  (And to this day, I still see unaware drivers who believe that they are not allowed to turn left when the green arrow terminates, even if it's clear.)

Some of the problem is that these ideas are still against how signals are supposed to work.  In fact, I think in many states, there's laws stating that a light must turn from green to yellow to red back to green again.  Going green-yellow-red-yellow-green wouldn't be permitted.  Even green-yellow-red-flashing red-green wouldn't be correct, because a flashing phase is usually followed by a steady phase of the same color.

So there's a matter of trying to find something that works within the realm of what is currently permitted, yet be efficient to prevent people from stopping unnecessarily.

[SignBridge]

How about a standard three-color traffic light activated as needed by pedestrians pushing the button on the pole.

[jakeroot]

How about a standard three-color traffic light activated as needed by pedestrians pushing the button on the pole.

[UCFKnights]

I think an issue with the HAWK is the alternating flashing red, which bears more resemblance to railway crossings than traffic lights or beacons. From personal experience, there is very low driver comprehension with the HAWK's flashing phase. I think more drivers would understand a single flashing red light.

Yeah, I would prefer it if the two red balls flashed in unison rather than alternating, and I agree that would aid driver comprehension.

That's what I'm saying, like in this video:

Except that still nobody went ahead on flashing red in that video either.

IMO, the bigger problem is still having some cars run the red light at the beginning of the cycle.  I think that a HAWK light is a surprise.  Many drivers drive on through because for the most part, these signals are dark and they just ride through and never expect them to be red.  But if the dormant phase were green instead of dark, then drivers would treat them like a regular signal.

During the FDW phase, drivers can see either flashing yellow (pelican) or flashing red (California style).

green>yellow>red>flashing yellow>green.  Optional Signage:  Yield to peds on flashing yellow.

green>yellow>red>flashing red>green  Optional Signage: Stop for peds on flashing red.  Proceed when clear.

And of course the signage could have some level of symbols to cut down on wordage.  I'm thinking along the lines of the "left turn yield on green" that you some times see at doghouses to encourage people to make permitted left turns.  (And to this day, I still see unaware drivers who believe that they are not allowed to turn left when the green arrow terminates, even if it's clear.)

Some of the problem is that these ideas are still against how signals are supposed to work.  In fact, I think in many states, there's laws stating that a light must turn from green to yellow to red back to green again.  Going green-yellow-red-yellow-green wouldn't be permitted.  Even green-yellow-red-flashing red-green wouldn't be correct, because a flashing phase is usually followed by a steady phase of the same color.

So there's a matter of trying to find something that works within the realm of what is currently permitted, yet be efficient to prevent people from stopping unnecessarily.

I know I've seen numerous solid red arrows turn to flashing red arrows the to green arrows in my life before the FYA replaced them, and that hasn't ever really caused confusion from what I've seen.

[hotdogPi]

I know I've seen numerous solid red arrows turn to flashing red arrows the to green arrows in my life before the FYA replaced them, and that hasn't ever really caused confusion from what I've seen.

While I don't know if that's actually allowed, it definitely should be. I believe that turn on solid red arrow should not be allowed, and using a flashing red arrow should be the primary way to distinguish between turn on red allowed or not (instead of using signs at every single intersection that doesn't allow turn on red).

[kphoger]

(instead of using signs at every single intersection that doesn't allow turn on red).

...or having a city-wide statute (that everyone who drives there is expected to know, whether they're from another city or state or country or whatever) against it and then posting signs at only those intersections where it's allowed.

[SignBridge]

Ya' mean like New York City? LOL

[jeffandnicole]

(instead of using signs at every single intersection that doesn't allow turn on red).

...or having a city-wide statute (that everyone who drives there is expected to know, whether they're from another city or state or country or whatever) against it and then posting signs at only those intersections where it's allowed.

It's way easier to sign an existing law than to create a new law.

[hotdogPi]

(instead of using signs at every single intersection that doesn't allow turn on red).

...or having a city-wide statute (that everyone who drives there is expected to know, whether they're from another city or state or country or whatever) against it and then posting signs at only those intersections where it's allowed.

It's way easier to sign an existing law than to create a new law.

You might have misinterpreted his post, as I did when I initially read it. He was advocating against cities that already do that (which, as far as I know, is only NYC and Montreal). This is the relevant part of the entire combined sentence:

"Using a flashing red arrow should be the primary way to distinguish between turn on red allowed or not (instead of using signs at every single intersection that doesn't allow turn on red or having a city-wide statute against it and then posting signs at only those intersections where it's allowed)."

[jakeroot]

I think I found the HAWK with the most number of signal faces on one approach...one way, granted, but still one-per-lane plus pole mounts! ... https://goo.gl/rgmsAF

(Spokane, WA)

[Amtrakprod]

Well I finally caught a Emergency Signal HAWK in action (partly), I believe it was set up wrong: https://youtu.be/KG5xGYc7aAA
Before the video it's dark, then flashing yellow 4 times, goes solid yellow for 3 seconds then shows one red light on, then how's both red lights on(going against signage), then it goes flashing red and then off


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[jakeroot]

So only one red light was displaying before the video started? That would be odd.

I think the signage is sufficient. Solid red is pretty self-explanatory.

Other than that, besides the extremely long all-red phase, things seem in order.

[Amtrakprod]

So only one red light was displaying before the video started? That would be odd.

I think the signage is sufficient. Solid red is pretty self-explanatory.

Other than that, besides the extremely long all-red phase, things seem in order.

According to the MUTCD, fire station hawks should flash red as soon as they end the solid yellow phase

[jakeroot]

According to the MUTCD, fire station hawks should flash red as soon as they end the solid yellow phase

Oooooh. Thanks.

[SignBridge]

Yeah looking at the specs in the MUTCD, it looks like whoever programmed its operation set it up like a crosswalk signal instead of an emergency signal. And watching the video, the posted sign does contradict the actual operation. You can contact the city agency that installs and maintains traffic signals. Best of luck. 

[Scott5114]

Why don't you work for dot again?

Regulations make me want to tear my hair out. I'd have to work for a giant city that could flip the bird at the FHWA whenever it wanted.

You could also get a job with OkDOT and flip the bird at good taste whenever you want....

[Amtrakprod]

Yeah looking at the specs in the MUTCD, it looks like whoever programmed its operation set it up like a crosswalk signal instead of an emergency signal. And watching the video, the posted sign does contradict the actual operation. You can contact the city agency that installs and maintains traffic signals. Best of luck.

Yeah imma try, they have two hawks in town, both are set up wrong


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