Massachusetts now looking to do new tolls

[jeffandnicole]

...But this is my opinion: a wind turbine would generate noise and disturb locals

Just to point out, wind turbines are generally very quiet.  For those near a potential project, a quick trip to an existing wind farm, standing underneath the wind turbines, and having a perfectly fine conversation is a good convincer that those things don't much much noise.

plus it would decrease property value.

Doesn't that translate into lower taxes?

For that matter, nearly everything is claimed to lower property values.  Rarely do lower property values actually occur.

[PHLBOS]

I-84 - Probably the best free road for a tolling candidate.

Wrong, the Strubridge toll plaza with the Pike (I-90) is only 7 miles from the border and I have indeed seen eastbound 84 traffic grdilock extend as far back as the CT state line at times.

I-91 - I don't see any road as high-volume enough between 91 and 3 to warrant consideration.

Typo. alert: I believe you meant to say 91 and 5.

As far as tolls along the Big Dig section of I-93 itself; the only proposal I would suggest would be to place a ORT HOT/Express toll for southbound traffic just before Exit 26 and a northbound ORT HOT/Express toll just before Exit 20.  I would also recommend converting the Allston toll plaza along the Pike (I-90) into a one-way eastbound so that those coming from either I-93, the Tobin Bridge or the Airport aren't hit twice.  Set all toll facilities into Boston at either $2.50 or $3 inbound toll; which is lower than the current inbound toll of $3.50 for the 2 tunnels (Sumner & Williams) and Tobin Bridge.

Disclaimer Note:  I would only support the above if the revenue raised only goes towards the roads being tolled (I-93 & I-90) and not some general transportation fund.  The Robbing Peter to Pay Paul is what caused the revenue shortfall in the first place in most instances.

[MVHighways]

How about we all just shut up about this wind farm debate? Everyone has the right to their opinion. Back to the original topic!
----------------

Given that the state got saddled with a lot of cost from the Big Dig, it doesn't surprise me that they would want some toll revenue.  Along those lines, and as others have mentioned, tolling I-93 through downtown Boston would be a very good idea.

Exactly the reason why they should put tolls there and not at the state lines. Well actually there are many others, but you made a great point with the costs.

[kurumi]

CT has been raising trial balloons about state-line tolls for a while now. Maybe we need some work toward a non-proliferation treaty.

[agentsteel53]

Did I just get my ass handed to me in this wind farm debate? Everyone has the right to their opinion. Back to the original topic!

fixed that for ya.

[MVHighways]

Did I just get my ass handed to me in this wind farm debate? Everyone has the right to their opinion. Back to the original topic!

fixed that for ya.

Lol. I have other reasons against wind farms, but I'm going to remain silent about that. This is a ROADGEEK forum, NOT a POLITICAL forum.

[kkt]

CT has been raising trial balloons about state-line tolls for a while now.

Be careful they don't float into the wind farms.

[agentsteel53]

lOl

fixed that for ya, too.

[MVHighways]

lOl

fixed that for ya, too.

*sighs*

CT has been raising trial balloons about state-line tolls for a while now.

Be careful they don't float into the wind farms.

Oh geez.

[deathtopumpkins]

Something that has thus far been lost in this conversation:  has it been announced/reported/written WHY this tolling is being considered, and what would be done with the toll revenue?

Yes, the legislature directed MassDOT to study state line tolls (but NOT at any specific location, as of yet) as part of their recently passed transportation funding bill. The revenue is intended to offset the additional increases in various taxes that Governor Patrick proposed but the legislature repeatedly shot down.

The money goes toward bailing out the MBTA (thus no additional fare hikes in the immediate future), funding several transit expansion projects, notably the Green Line extension to Medford, rebuilding Government Center, finishing the new commuter rail lines to Fall River and New Bedford that are currently in the design phase (Patrick's original plan allocated money for finishing these, as well as purchasing new vehicle fleets, and adding rail service from Boston as far as Springfield), and various other projects, as well as expanded highway maintenance funds, and the money to complete multiple proposed/planned/in-design highway projects. Which projects it pays for I'm not sure though. The Governor's plan paid for rebuilding BOTH of the 93/95 interchanges, a variety of things under the Accelerated Bridge Program, and the dispersal of more than a billion dollars to municipalities for state-aid projects.

[Duke87]

Random dumb idea: toll the Bourne and Sagamore Bridges, and offer Barnstable, Dukes, and Nantucket County residents EZ Pass tags that exempt them.

Because hosing tourists is much more fun than hosing people who are merely from out of state!

[NE2]

The Cape Cod Squad can afford to pay anyway. They'll probably go for it to keep out the riff-raff.

Hey, how's this for an idea? Install wind turbines (and solar panels) on a bridge and let it make money (or at least lose less).

[Alps]

I-84 - Probably the best free road for a tolling candidate.

Wrong, the Strubridge toll plaza with the Pike (I-90) is only 7 miles from the border and I have indeed seen eastbound 84 traffic grdilock extend as far back as the CT state line at times.

Presumably all new tolls would be open road. I can't see them erecting a toll plaza with all that expense and paying tolltakers. (This goes to Froggie's argument about US 7 - just put it Right At The Border Line.)

I-91 - I don't see any road as high-volume enough between 91 and 3 to warrant consideration.

Typo. alert: I believe you meant to say 91 and 5.

No typo. Between I-91 and US 3, there are no roads I see as candidates for tolling.

[froggie]

Presumably all new tolls would be open road. I can't see them erecting a toll plaza with all that expense and paying tolltakers. (This goes to Froggie's argument about US 7 - just put it Right At The Border Line.)

I had already presumed that it would be ORT.  Going back to US 7, you can't...not with a house and a motel right at the border.

[NE2]

If Vermont agrees to split the money, you could have two electronic toll booths on US 7 at clearings/wide spots on either side of the state line, and you are only charged if you go through both. A spot just south of VT 346 looks perfect, and perhaps they could fit something at the Steinerfilm driveway in Massachusetts. The only way around is Hill Road AKA Dirt Motherfucking Road.

[MVHighways]

Presumably all new tolls would be open road. I can't see them erecting a toll plaza with all that expense and paying tolltakers. (This goes to Froggie's argument about US 7 - just put it Right At The Border Line.)

I had already presumed that it would be ORT.  Going back to US 7, you can't...not with a house and a motel right at the border.

If Vermont agrees to split the money, you could have two electronic toll booths on US 7 at clearings/wide spots on either side of the state line, and you are only charged if you go through both. A spot just south of VT 346 looks perfect, and perhaps they could fit something at the Steinerfilm driveway in Massachusetts. The only way around is Hill Road AKA Dirt Motherfucking Road.

Better idea: allow residents of Williamstown and Pownal to purchase EZ-Passes that get you through said potential US 7 toll for free. Or at least for a discount, and let those in the immediate area get through for free, otherwise you'd frustrate the many residents in the area.

[agentsteel53]

If Vermont agrees to split the money, you could have two electronic toll booths on US 7 at clearings/wide spots on either side of the state line, and you are only charged if you go through both. A spot just south of VT 346 looks perfect, and perhaps they could fit something at the Steinerfilm driveway in Massachusetts. The only way around is Hill Road AKA Dirt Motherfucking Road.

how motherfucking is the dirt?  given that a typical rural resident of western MA/southern VT is likely to own a pickup truck, they may very well just take Hill Road.

[froggie]

Personally, I don't know why they'd even bother with tolling US 7 there.  Most of the traffic is local ("through/tourist traffic" to/from southwestern Vermont generally comes up NY 7 from the Albany area).  And volumes are not all that high...just over 7,000 AADT now, of which 1,600 gets off the road at VT 346.

[MVHighways]

Personally, I don't know why they'd even bother with tolling US 7 there.  Most of the traffic is local ("through/tourist traffic" to/from southwestern Vermont generally comes up NY 7 from the Albany area).  And volumes are not all that high...just over 7,000 AADT now, of which 1,600 gets off the road at VT 346.

Yeah, have to agree with you. Why bother? Then again this IS Massachusetts and they love to grab people's money...

If Vermont agrees to split the money, you could have two electronic toll booths on US 7 at clearings/wide spots on either side of the state line, and you are only charged if you go through both. A spot just south of VT 346 looks perfect, and perhaps they could fit something at the Steinerfilm driveway in Massachusetts. The only way around is Hill Road AKA Dirt Motherfucking Road.

how motherfucking is the dirt?  given that a typical rural resident of western MA/southern VT is likely to own a pickup truck, they may very well just take Hill Road.

Yeah.

[Pete from Boston]

I have a feeling that ORT systems on these low-traffic roads in rural VT/WMass would be frequently under repair from the effects of a lot of Bud Light and a little libertarianism. 

[agentsteel53]

I have a feeling that ORT systems on these low-traffic roads in rural VT/WMass would be frequently under repair from the effects of a lot of Bud Light and a little libertarianism.

I don't think "libertarianism" can be neatly equated to "vandalism". 

[Pete from Boston]

I have a feeling that ORT systems on these low-traffic roads in rural VT/WMass would be frequently under repair from the effects of a lot of Bud Light and a little libertarianism.

I don't think "libertarianism" can be neatly equated to "vandalism".

You haven't had enough Bud Light, then.

[Brandon]

I have a feeling that ORT systems on these low-traffic roads in rural VT/WMass would be frequently under repair from the effects of a lot of Bud Light and a little libertarianism.

I don't think "libertarianism" can be neatly equated to "vandalism".

You haven't had enough Bud Light, then.

That's like the famous last words of far too many, "Hold my beer."

[PHLBOS]

I-84 - Probably the best free road for a tolling candidate.

Wrong, the Strubridge toll plaza with the Pike (I-90) is only 7 miles from the border and I have indeed seen eastbound 84 traffic grdilock extend as far back as the CT state line at times.

Presumably all new tolls would be open road. I can't see them erecting a toll plaza with all that expense and paying tolltakers.

As others have stated similar & likely assumptions (regarding ORT implementation), that still doesn't change that fact that the majority of traffic along 7-mile stretch of I-84 is through-traffic to/from the Pike (I-90) and are already paying a toll of sorts.

Given the fact that the existing toll plaza can cause backups as far as the CT border at times and assuming that most of the existing Pike toll plazas won't be converted to ORTs anytime soon (to reduce/prevent such); that could cause issues w/a supplemental ORT located only a few miles away.  ORTs are designed for moving traffic not stationary traffic; a stationary vehicle in the vicinity of the ORT gantry could run the risk of being tolled/charged more than once.  An unsuspecting motorist may not be aware of such until they receive their bill in the mail or receive their EZPass statment sometime later.  It's opening up a Pandora's box of hassles if you ask me.

Additionally, the Pike is now run by MassDOT so the tolls are no longer necessarily going to a separate agency (Massachusetts Turnpike Authority).

As far as tolling non-highways near the borders is concerned; tolling such roads died off circa late 19th century/early 20th century; I don't see such happening any time soon.

IMHO, the best solution would be a mixture of tolls and additional (but not exhorbitant) gas tax revenue. 
Note: this is assuming that all-related wasteful spending is indeed eliminated (this should be Priority One IMHO) but addtional revenue (for actual work & maintenace) is still needed.

1.  As mentioned earlier place one-way ORTs at I-93 North before Exit 20 (I-90), I-93 South before Exit 26 (MA 3 North & MA 28), convert the Allston toll plaza along I-90 into a one-way ORT eastbound and covert all the existing tolls plazas at the river/harbor crossings into ORTs.  Charge a uniform toll of $2.50-$3 if the Pike tolls along I-90 west of I-95 remain or a toll of $4-$5 if the Pike tolls along I-90 west of I-95 are removed.

2.  Similar to what was practiced in Bay State during the early-80s, make the gas tax rate percentage-based rather than a flat-rate so that when the price skyrockets, additional revenue can accrue; but impose a minimum flat rate that automatically kicks in should prices plummet (like it did during the mid-80s).

3.  Allow an additional small flat gas tax to be levied in counties that have a sizable mass-transit presence/network; this reduces the fleecing of those in western Massachusetts susidizing mass transit systems in the eastern & central part of the state that they're never going to use.

[Pete from Boston]

When are people encountering traffic backing up from the Sturbridge toll to the state line?  I go through there about 20 times a year and can't remember anything close to that happening since Thanksgivings before the age of electronic tolling.