Can't follow the through route

[vdeane]

I don't think AASHTO officially cares about changes that minor, though some states do submit them.

But is it a re-alignment or a permanent detour?  In any case, it's a classic example of cities caring more for the local street grid then the signed through routes.

[NE2]

But is it a re-alignment or a permanent detour?  In any case, it's a classic example of cities caring more for the local street grid then the signed through routes.

Huh? They posted the realignment. What more should they do?

[vdeane]

For those of us focused on clinching, you'd have to change the official definition, which given your earlier comment on AASHTO, would be getting NYSDOT to change the route log... and there's a better chance of hell freezing over than NYSDOT changing the route log.  NY 590 north of Titus and NY 12E in the city of Watertown are both still on the books despite the route signage being truncated.

EDIT: NY 252A and NY 360 are also still on the books despite being transferred to Monroe County with all signage removed.  I read on the Wikipedia page for NY 421 that NYSDOT needs permission from Albany to change the log.

[NE2]

For those of us focused on clinching, you'd have to change the official definition, which given your earlier comment on AASHTO, would be getting NYSDOT to change the route log... and there's a better chance of hell freezing over than NYSDOT changing the route log.

(New Jersey-New York State line) George Washington Bridge, New York City-Westchester County line on Cross Bronx Expressway, Webster Avenue, Fordham Road and Boston Post Road, New Rochelle, Mamoroneck, Rye, Port Chester (Connecticut-New York State line) — New York, Bronx and Westchester Counties.

What needs to be changed? The log doesn't give every street on the route (e.g. Pelham Parkway), only a general description of where the route goes. It may be more instructive to look at NY 27:

(I 278) on Prospect Expressway, Linden Boulevard-Church Avenue, Conduit Avenue east to New York City-Nassau County line, on Sunrise Highway to Valley Stream, Lynbrook, Rockville Centre, Freeport, Massapequa Park, North Babylon, Great River, North Patchogue, Oakville, North Shinnecock Hills, Southampton, East Hampton, (Montauk Point) — Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk Counties.

In addition to switching Church and Linden, this completely omits 5th, Coney Island, and Caton.

I read on the Wikipedia page for NY 421 that NYSDOT needs permission from Albany to change the log.

Wikipedia has a bunch of questionable and misleading statements. This one is about removing the old route, which had already been renumbered 971D, from the state (maintained) highway system: http://image.iarchives.nysed.gov/images/images/115656.pdf

[deathtopumpkins]

For those of us focused on clinching, you'd have to change the official definition

Well hold on there, that may be your criterion, but I don't think there is universal agreement on it.

I, and I know many other members of this forum do similar, count detours as clinching a route. But only if they are official detours, rather than you taking a shortcut or going around, and each are considered on a case-by-case basis. For example, I recently had to go around a few blocks of US 3 north of Concord, NH due to a street festival, but I still count it as clinched.

I think each person has their own "rules" for road clinching.

Edited for typo.

[NE2]

If I were clinching, I'd consider the official definition of a signed route to be the signed route.

[Mapmikey]

For those of us focused on clinching, you'd have to change the official definition

Well hold on there, that may be your criterion, but I don't think there is universal agreement on it.

I, and I know many other members of this forum do similar, count detours as clinching a route. But only if they are official detours, rather than you taking a shortcut or going around, and each are considered on a case-by-case basis. For example, I recently had to go around a few blocks of US 3 north of Concord, NH due to a street festival, but I still count it as clinched.

I think each person has their own "rules" for road clinching.

Edited for typo.

I tend to think the opposite...

A month ago I tried to drive US 4 in its entirety from Troy NY to Concord NH.  The Hudson River bridge at Northumberland was closed and there was a lengthy signed detour that wound up skipping about 8 miles of US 4.  The detour used NY 32 and NY 197. 

Although I drove the signed-at-the-time US 4 routing (bridge has since reopened), I do not view myself as having clinched US 4, especially given that I clinched other primary mileage in executing the detour.

I have given myself US 13 though, as the day I drove it through Western Philadelphia there was 1 block of it closed because a crane was doing weekend work on a building...

Mapmikey

[deathtopumpkins]

For those of us focused on clinching, you'd have to change the official definition

Well hold on there, that may be your criterion, but I don't think there is universal agreement on it.

I, and I know many other members of this forum do similar, count detours as clinching a route. But only if they are official detours, rather than you taking a shortcut or going around, and each are considered on a case-by-case basis. For example, I recently had to go around a few blocks of US 3 north of Concord, NH due to a street festival, but I still count it as clinched.

I think each person has their own "rules" for road clinching.

Edited for typo.

I tend to think the opposite...

A month ago I tried to drive US 4 in its entirety from Troy NY to Concord NH.  The Hudson River bridge at Northumberland was closed and there was a lengthy signed detour that wound up skipping about 8 miles of US 4.  The detour used NY 32 and NY 197. 

Although I drove the signed-at-the-time US 4 routing (bridge has since reopened), I do not view myself as having clinched US 4, especially given that I clinched other primary mileage in executing the detour.

I have given myself US 13 though, as the day I drove it through Western Philadelphia there was 1 block of it closed because a crane was doing weekend work on a building...

Mapmikey

And those examples right there are why I included the "considered on a case-by-case basis" statement. I wouldn't include US 4 as clinched in your example either. In a similar vein I didn't consider US 1 over the Memorial Bridge in Portsmouth/Kittery as clinched until I drove it after it reopened, since the signed detour was Bypass 1 and skipped all of both cities' downtowns.

If it is a major bridge out, that would be one case where I would not count it anyway. Same with multiple-mile detours. But deviating for a few blocks due to a closure or something still counts for me, like you said with US 13. Essentially it sounds like we are actually in agreement.

[vdeane]

For those of us focused on clinching, you'd have to change the official definition, which given your earlier comment on AASHTO, would be getting NYSDOT to change the route log... and there's a better chance of hell freezing over than NYSDOT changing the route log.

(New Jersey-New York State line) George Washington Bridge, New York City-Westchester County line on Cross Bronx Expressway, Webster Avenue, Fordham Road and Boston Post Road, New Rochelle, Mamoroneck, Rye, Port Chester (Connecticut-New York State line) — New York, Bronx and Westchester Counties.

What needs to be changed? The log doesn't give every street on the route (e.g. Pelham Parkway), only a general description of where the route goes. It may be more instructive to look at NY 27:

(I 278) on Prospect Expressway, Linden Boulevard-Church Avenue, Conduit Avenue east to New York City-Nassau County line, on Sunrise Highway to Valley Stream, Lynbrook, Rockville Centre, Freeport, Massapequa Park, North Babylon, Great River, North Patchogue, Oakville, North Shinnecock Hills, Southampton, East Hampton, (Montauk Point) — Kings, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk Counties.

In addition to switching Church and Linden, this completely omits 5th, Coney Island, and Caton.

I read on the Wikipedia page for NY 421 that NYSDOT needs permission from Albany to change the log.

Wikipedia has a bunch of questionable and misleading statements. This one is about removing the old route, which had already been renumbered 971D, from the state (maintained) highway system: http://image.iarchives.nysed.gov/images/images/115656.pdf

I use the log in the traffic data report rather than the imprecise one you like.

[NE2]

I use the log in the traffic data report rather than the imprecise one you like.

That's not a log defining the routes, but a report using information about the routes. It's up to the traffic data report people to change their information if a route is moved. (And it's still not detailed enough that this route around a left turn prohibition needs to be noted. Does the report mean that US 9 southbound uses 178th Street, since 179th Street is not listed?)

[ChoralScholar]

* US 61 in Turrel, AR (the most recent) - cannot jump onto I-55 heading SB, missing ramp

Google maps is showing a goofy continuation now - Southbound 61 goes up 63 to the first overpass, then under it, back up the frontage road, and onto the SB on-ramp of I-55.

[NE2]

Google maps is showing a goofy continuation now - Southbound 61 goes up 63 to the first overpass, then under it, back up the frontage road, and onto the SB on-ramp of I-55.

Looks to me like it goes up 63 to the first interchange and U-turns there, going *over* 63 and then hopping back on 63 south. Which is, frankly, probably the most logical routing, though going straight across 77 onto the eastside I-55 frontage road and looping to the west at 42 is shorter.

[bugo]

According to AHTD, US 61 ends at US 63 and does not continue south.  Therefore the duplex with US 63 and turn around does not exist to them. 

[empirestate]

I've seen some instances where, officially speaking, routes are thought of not merely as a continuous path of pavement, but also sometimes having a vertical dimension. Imagine two freeways crossing, where a route number makes a right-angle turn through the interchange. It's not unheard of for a route to "officially" occupy the mainline freeway–not the ramps–up to a point directly beneath or above the center of the grade separation, then to "jump" vertically to the crossing road. So in two dimensions, this route makes a continuous path, but in three dimension, where drivers live, it doesn't.

For one example, I-590 and I-490 don't seem to intersect according to NYSDOT. I-590 becomes NY 590 at a point directly beneath I-490; it doesn't follow any of the ramps connecting the interstates. I realize this doesn't satisfy the topic at hand, but if you find a route that makes a right angle in this way, you might have a new type of "can't follow the through route", at least according to the official designation.

[vdeane]

Yeah, they have to.  Otherwise ramps would cause issues, as would one-way pairs (which are also dropped in the non-dominant direction of movement).

[NE2]

Imagine two freeways crossing, where a route number makes a right-angle turn through the interchange. It's not unheard of for a route to "officially" occupy the mainline freeway–not the ramps–up to a point directly beneath or above the center of the grade separation, then to "jump" vertically to the crossing road. So in two dimensions, this route makes a continuous path, but in three dimension, where drivers live, it doesn't.

I-76 and I-80 in Ohio.

[Pete from Boston]

Does Mass 2A East fit?  Approaching Harvard Square from the northwest on Mass Ave, you're required to use possibly JFK St., Brattle St., possibly even a few feet of Eliot St., then Mt. Auburn St. before returning to Mass Ave eastbound.  Is this route 2A, or is only the nominal-West-only route on Mass Ave?

[Alps]

Does Mass 2A East fit?  Approaching Harvard Square from the northwest on Mass Ave, you're required to use possibly JFK St., Brattle St., possibly even a few feet of Eliot St., then Mt. Auburn St. before returning to Mass Ave eastbound.  Is this route 2A, or is only the nominal-West-only route on Mass Ave?

I think 2A EB is official through there, but not state-maintained.

[webfil]

On Victoria Bridge in Montréal, during the morning rush hour, from 6:00 am to 9:00 am, both lanes of the Victoria Bridge are used to travel Montréal-bound. In the evening, from 3:00 pm to 7:15 pm, both lanes are used in the opposite direction. At all other times, there is one lane available in each direction.

That makes R-112 EB impassable on weekday mornings and WB impassable on weekday afternoons.

[froggie]

What will AASHTO think?

Not within AASHTO's realm, as the official route has not changed, turn restrictions notwithstanding.

The portion of I-66 from I-495 to the DC line has 12 interchanges (including I-495) and only one of them (Exit 66, VA-7) is a full interchange, although some of the interchanges are "twinned half-interchanges" some distance apart from each other.

Technically speaking, I-66 Rosslyn is an "elongated diamond"...a full interchange.

As for Hoo's question about what to do in the turn-restriction scenario, there's a few different options, depending on how the street network is set up in a given location, and all three have pretty much been mentioned: a ) 3 rights to make a left, b ) follow the signs (if available), c ) follow the route in the other direction.

[vdeane]

What will AASHTO think?

Not within AASHTO's realm, as the official route has not changed, turn restrictions notwithstanding.

AASHTO is OK with it being impossible to follow the official route in a given direction?

[NE2]

No, I haven't stopped beating my wife.

[vtk]

US 62 SWB / OH 3 SB in Columbus. (In ODOT SLDs as routes 62D and 3D)

According to the SLDs*, the route follows Third St southbound, then turns west on Town St, following that all the way to Central Ave.  Problem is, the Town St Bridge was closed a few years ago and demolished.  Even worse, the section of Town St between High St and Third St was removed decades ago when City Center Mall was built.  (The latter was in recent years demolished and replaced with Columbus Commons). 

Maps from before 2009 generally showed the route staying on Third an extra block to Rich St, then back up Front St to Town St and then west across the river.  Since last year, maps generally show the route taking Rich St and the new Rich St Bridge across the river to Town St.  But is this the official route?*

Last I checked, there is no indication on Third St to turn right – anywhere – to continue on 62/3.  If you turn onto Rich St anyway, signs at Front St direct you to turn right to follow 62/3.  Doing so does not help you follow 62/3 by any stretch of the imagination.

*The SLDs available online have not been updated since late 2009, at which point they were claimed to be up to date as of January 1 of that year.  I don't know if they'll ever be updated again.

[froggie]

AASHTO is OK with it being impossible to follow the official route in a given direction?

As far as AASHTO's route numbering committee is concerned, the route number follows a given street or corridor.  It is exclusively up to the local jurisdiction (whether DOT/county/local) as to things like turn restrictions and how (or, moreso, whether) signage is applied to those turn restrictions.

[thenetwork]

Near the West Glenwood exit in Glenwood Springs, Colorado, there are CDOT signs directing US-6 West traffic onto the North Frontage Road to continue west. 


Problem is, about a mile west down the frontage road, US-6 dead-ends as the I -70 alignment goes through South Canyon in place of the old US-6 alignment with no access for US-6 to rejoin I-70.


CDOT would probably blame the contractor (who built the dumbbell roundabout exits there) for the erroneous signing of US-6 as C-DOT rarely signs US-6 near or on any current I-70 alignment, if ever.