The Oxford Comma

[Beltway]

If you bring up the source code of this page, you'll see that the forum converts extra spaces in posts to   entities in order to force them to show up.

HTML has a lot of coding elements behind the scene of what the end user sees in their browser.

No shit? It's almost like that's what my last two posts were about.

HTML has a lot of "overhead" that straight text does not have.

I'm not sure what your point is. 

Just because the 'blank' character takes up space in code is not a reason not to use it.

Has been the case since mainframes where the EBCDIC 8-bit byte represented the 'blank' character as hexadecimal "40" which in bits is "0100 0000"

[Scott5114]

The point is because the browser is going strip it out anyway, there's little point in putting it there.

[Beltway]

The point is because the browser is going strip it out anyway, there's little point in putting it there.

The aforementioned double space between sentences in the same paragraph?

None of my browsers strip out the second space -- Microsoft Edge and Google Chrome on Windows 10 computer, or Internet Explorer and Google Chrome on Windows 7 computer.

[JoePCool14]

I usually use the Oxford comma; however, I don't really mind seeing it either way. It'd be nice if we were consistent, but that's not the world we live in!

[kphoger]

HTML specification treats anything more than a single space character as "whitespace". Whitespace is a catch-all term for spaces, tabs, etc generally used for making code (like HTML text) more legible. Since whitespace is meant to make the code more legible and not as a presentation part of the document, HTML parsers (like browsers) strip it out before displaying to the user. So the only thing double-spacing periods does is pad file sizes!

The point is because the browser is going strip it out anyway, there's little point in putting it there.

The aforementioned double space between sentences in the same paragraph?

None of my browsers strip out the second space -- Microsoft Edge and Google Chrome on Windows 10 computer, or Internet Explorer and Google Chrome on Windows 7 computer.

Indeed.  This is easily shown below.

. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .

.  2  .  space  .  between  .  words  .  and  .  periods  .

The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:  they are still visible.

[US 89]

Indeed.  This is easily shown below.

. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .

.  2  .  space  .  between  .  words  .  and  .  periods  .

The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:  they are still visible.

The actual HTML code for this quote:

Indeed.&nbsp; This is easily shown below.<br /><br />. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .<br /><br />.&nbsp; 2&nbsp; .&nbsp; space&nbsp; .&nbsp; between&nbsp; .&nbsp; words&nbsp; .&nbsp; and&nbsp; .&nbsp; periods&nbsp; .<br /><br />The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:&nbsp; they are still visible.

The only reason you still see the extra spaces is because they're coded as &nbsp; characters, not regular spaces.

[Beltway]

Indeed.&nbsp; This is easily shown below.<br /><br />. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .<br /><br />.&nbsp; 2&nbsp; .&nbsp; space&nbsp; .&nbsp; between&nbsp; .&nbsp; words&nbsp; .&nbsp; and&nbsp; .&nbsp; periods&nbsp; .<br /><br />The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:&nbsp; they are still visible.

The only reason you still see the extra spaces is because they're coded as &nbsp; characters, not regular spaces.

I am OK with that.

There is plenty of code "behind the scenes" or "overhead" in HTML, to make it display the way it does. 

While having 5 HTML characters to represent the second space seems a bit excessive, that means the two spaces take up 6, and I am fine with that when I code a webpage.  That is an insignificant practice compared to the space taken up by images.

[kphoger]

Indeed.  This is easily shown below.

. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .

.  2  .  space  .  between  .  words  .  and  .  periods  .

The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:  they are still visible.

The actual HTML code for this quote:

Indeed.&nbsp; This is easily shown below.<br /><br />. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .<br /><br />.&nbsp; 2&nbsp; .&nbsp; space&nbsp; .&nbsp; between&nbsp; .&nbsp; words&nbsp; .&nbsp; and&nbsp; .&nbsp; periods&nbsp; .<br /><br />The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:&nbsp; they are still visible.

The only reason you still see the extra spaces is because they're coded as &nbsp; characters, not regular spaces.

Right.  I don't know computer code, but I gathered that's what was happening based on previous posts.  My point is that it's misleading for him to say "the browser is going to strip [the extra space] out":  it's not being stripped out, just modified into something else–something else, in fact, that looks exactly like an extra space to the user.  And, therefore, it is simply false to claim "there's little point in putting it there":  a lot of us double-space between sentences in order to make the break between thoughts stand out more clearly, and that does not change simply because a space that looks like a space has been converted into a different code element that still looks like a space.

[vdeane]

The behavior is pretty noticeable on my site.  Go to nysroads.com, look at the source, and it's noticeable that I double-space everything but Chrome strips it out.  Everything on that site is hand-coded, and I like my source code looking neat and tidy, so no nbsp characters for me.  The exception is using the codes for characters like é, since there are actual technical reasons (other than some people liking the way single spaces look better, even though it makes the sentences run together) as to why that became a best practice.

[kphoger]

The behavior is pretty noticeable on my site.  Go to nysroads.com, look at the source, and it's noticeable that I double-space everything but Chrome strips it out.  Everything on that site is hand-coded, and I like my source code looking neat and tidy, so no nbsp characters for me.  The exception is using the codes for characters like é, since there are actual technical reasons (other than some people liking the way single spaces look better, even though it makes the sentences run together) as to why that became a best practice.

Yes, I see it.  Thank you.

I still wonder why anyone would actually want to eliminate the second space.

[US 89]

Indeed.  This is easily shown below.

. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .

.  2  .  space  .  between  .  words  .  and  .  periods  .

The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:  they are still visible.

The actual HTML code for this quote:

Indeed.&nbsp; This is easily shown below.<br /><br />. 1 . space . between . words . and . periods .<br /><br />.&nbsp; 2&nbsp; .&nbsp; space&nbsp; .&nbsp; between&nbsp; .&nbsp; words&nbsp; .&nbsp; and&nbsp; .&nbsp; periods&nbsp; .<br /><br />The browser is not stripping the extra whitespace before displaying it to me:&nbsp; they are still visible.

The only reason you still see the extra spaces is because they're coded as &nbsp; characters, not regular spaces.

Right.  I don't know computer code, but I gathered that's what was happening based on previous posts.  My point is that it's misleading for him to say "the browser is going to strip [the extra space] out":  it's not being stripped out, just modified into something else–something else, in fact, that looks exactly like an extra space to the user.  And, therefore, it is simply false to claim "there's little point in putting it there":  a lot of us double-space between sentences in order to make the break between thoughts stand out more clearly, and that does not change simply because a space that looks like a space has been converted into a different code element that still looks like a space.

What he's trying to say is if you write your HTML code with double-spacing between sentences, the second space will not display to the end user unless you specifically code one of them as a non-breaking space.

[kphoger]

...which this site does with its own script.  ?

[Scott5114]

Right. But this site is an exception; if no script is present to substitute a nbsp for a space (which there usually is not), then extraneous spaces will not be displayed to the user, and including them results in no benefit to the reader, actual or perceived.

The reason why extraneous spaces are removed during parsing is to allow coders to use space characters to organize their code (i.e. indent it) and have it not affect the displayed content.

[Road Hog]

I'm not reading the entire thread but I reserve the Oxford comma for complex sentences where it would be helpful to clarify structure.

[Beltway]

Right. But this site is an exception; if no script is present to substitute a nbsp for a space (which there usually is not), then extraneous spaces will not be displayed to the user, and including them results in no benefit to the reader, actual or perceived.
The reason why extraneous spaces are removed during parsing is to allow coders to use space characters to organize their code (i.e. indent it) and have it not affect the displayed content.

Not sure of the percentage, but some websites have HTML webpages that have the double spacing between sentences in the same paragraph.

HTML webpages are only part of the system.  PDF documents are whatever they are produced as, and all browsers do is display them as they were originally produced.

There are Word documents and PDF documents that don't get posted on websites, they are for internal business or academic use or personal use.

So the grammar is not controlled by HTML usage, as billions of documents are not displayed on HTML pages.

[Scott5114]

Right. But this site is an exception; if no script is present to substitute a nbsp for a space (which there usually is not), then extraneous spaces will not be displayed to the user, and including them results in no benefit to the reader, actual or perceived.
The reason why extraneous spaces are removed during parsing is to allow coders to use space characters to organize their code (i.e. indent it) and have it not affect the displayed content.

Not sure of the percentage, but some websites have HTML webpages that have the double spacing between sentences in the same paragraph.

HTML webpages are only part of the system.  PDF documents are whatever they are produced as, and all browsers do is display them as they were originally produced.

There are Word documents and PDF documents that don't get posted on websites, they are for internal business or academic use or personal use.

So the grammar is not controlled by HTML usage, as billions of documents are not displayed on HTML pages.

The #1 argument against double spaces after periods in the modern era–the HTML specification treats anything more than a single space character as "whitespace". Whitespace is a catch-all term for spaces, tabs, etc generally used for making code (like HTML text) more legible. Since whitespace is meant to make the code more legible and not as a presentation part of the document, HTML parsers (like browsers) strip it out before displaying to the user. So the only thing double-spacing periods does is pad file sizes!

argument against double spaces after periods in the modern era–the HTML specification treats anything more than a single space character as "whitespace". Whitespace is a catch-all term for spaces, tabs, etc

against double spaces after periods in the modern era–the HTML specification treats anything more than a single space character as "whitespace". Whitespace is

after periods in the modern era–the HTML specification treats anything more than a single space character  is

in the modern era–the HTML specification treats anything more than

the HTML specification

It's entirely possible I wasn't talking about every document in the known universe!!

[kphoger]

When I'm typing sentences, it's generally on this forum, in an e-mail, or to be printed on paper directly from Word.

[kphoger]

It's entirely possible I wasn't talking about every document in the known universe!!

True, and that's where we all got off track (especially me, knowing next to nothing about code).  But you did call it "the #1 argument against double spaces after periods in the modern era".  There is a sufficient number of applications in the modern era in which the extra space is not stripped, that it's not really much of an argument against it.  I, for one, hardly do any typing at all that ends up being HTML-formatted before presentation to its end user.  Maybe none, in fact.

So, from the perspective of us double-spacers, either the double space gets displayed as intended, or else it's stripped as if we had only single-spaced–depending on how our text is treated between its genesis and the end user.  Neither alternative has any disadvantage to the person typing the text.  The only real downside is increase file size by a small amount, which honestly doesn't really matter to 96% of the people typing.

[Beltway]

The #1 argument against double spaces after periods in the modern era–the HTML specification treats anything more than a single space character as "whitespace". Whitespace is a catch-all term for spaces, tabs, etc generally used for making code (like HTML text) more legible. Since whitespace is meant to make the code more legible and not as a presentation part of the document, HTML parsers (like browsers) strip it out before displaying to the user. So the only thing double-spacing periods does is pad file sizes!
<<< snip >>>
It's entirely possible I wasn't talking about every document in the known universe!!

Forgive me if I misinterpreted but it sounded to me like it referred to writing in general.

[kphoger]

I'm not reading the entire thread but I reserve the Oxford comma for complex sentences where it would be helpful to clarify structure.

Could you give me some examples of your not using it and your using it?

[Scott5114]

I wouldn't imagine that the average American creates too many .docx, .odt, or .pdf files anymore, because that's not how an average American consumes content anymore–it's all HTML or plain text that will later be rendered into HTML. Web pages, social media*, wikis. I can't remember the last time I used a word processor for anything.

*I just tested, and Facebook strips out double spaces, for what it's worth.

[kphoger]

Wow, you have Facebook friends who type more than one sentence at a time!  ..........

[Beltway]

I wouldn't imagine that the average American creates too many .docx, .odt, or .pdf files anymore, because that's not how average American consumes content anymore–it's all HTML or plain text that will later be rendered into HTML. Web pages, social media*, wikis. I can't remember the last time I used a word processor for anything.

Really?  I use them all the time.

Graduate college program started this year.  Research papers, position papers, minor papers.

Used them frequently in my IT job which I retired from 2 years ago.

[Scott5114]

The average person does not write research papers in between going to the grocery store and picking up the kids from soccer practice, though. They consume content from websites and through various forms of social media.

In a work environment, it will be highly dependent on the position as to whether you will be using a word processor or not. In one of my jobs, we do not even have an office suite of any kind installed on most of the computers.

[Beltway]

The average person does not write research papers in between going to the grocery store and picking up the kids from soccer practice, though. They consume content from websites and through various forms of social media.
In a work environment, it will be highly dependent on the position as to whether you will be using a word processor or not. In one of my jobs, we do not even have an office suite of any kind installed on most of the computers.

In state government here the MS Office package is part of the standard image, and that is over 100,000 employees.

How many college students are there in the U.S.?  In 2017, there were 14.56 million college students in the U.S. enrolled in public colleges and 5.1 million students enrolled in private colleges. (statista dot com)

This is getting tedious.  The fact of that matter is that massive amounts of written communication goes on every day that never touches a browser or needs HTML.