Coronavirus pandemic

[kalvado]

Upthread, Kalvado spoke of countries where coronavirus testing can be finished within fifteen minutes.

Meanwhile, here in Kansas the state has just written off Johnson County, which has 12 cases and known community spread, because it is feared that any significant expansion of testing there will burn through the supply of test kits for the whole state.  Patients in the county will now be tested only when they are hospitalized.

At the moment, Kansas has a total of 23 cases (12 in Johnson, 5 in Wyandotte, 2 in Leavenworth, 1 each in Douglas, Franklin, Butler, and Ford Counties, all but the last two being in the northeast part of the state).

If you think about how the situation developed... US firmly joined the third world.
CDC reported early on that they shipped diagnostic kits - but restricted the use so that infection could spread. They banned research teams not certified for such from doing tests - and once they disobeyed and found infection spreading, banned the team from any tests.
Then it was reported one of 3 CDC primers gives uncertain results, whatever that means.
Now it is reported that second primer has high rate of false positives.
Foreign assistance, of course, got refused, and now US has no even poorly performing tests.

First time in my life when I think the death penalty is not just justified, but has to be liberally applied to those in charge. 

This is not current administration failure, this is systematic failure on many levels, and same problem goes to 737MAX, same goes to roundabout design.

I would certainly hope that's a fringe use of sarcasm but given the way this thread seems to be going at times I'm not really all that sure.

Well, bureaucracy and unqualified technical stuff result in deaths. I do think this has to be investigated as a crime, and that the death penalty is an appropriate sentence.
They usually argue that the threat of such a penalty should stop criminal minds from acting - which doesn't seem to be the case. But it can very well work for white-collar killers,  who should see their responsibility as a personal thing, not abstract matter as they are shielded by government immunity. Third world realities.

The fact that you're serious talking about executing people in my opinion shoots your credibility completely to hell.  People like you who suggest things like this are just as a big of a problem in terms of spreading fear and discontent as those who would do nothing.

I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. But current bureacracy is not doing honest mistakes, it is actually working against the people. Some of those bureaucrats need deep reality check. As deep as personal responsibility for their actions, in eye for eye style.
Credible or not... Maybe I just understand the freefall we're in better than you do?

[kalvado]

I think we are to the point where it might be a good idea to take a chill and remind ourselves that things will be OK, and talk about some of the road-related impacts.

Impacts to some of the bigger, long-term projects were mentioned upthread: it is hard at this moment to envision such being needed.
Thinking more short-term, construction has already ramped up on the Thruway in the infamous Seneca Nation, which has to be completely reconstructed. There's also been work at several of the AET conversion locations. There's been a bit of local work too with filling potholes, etc. On balance, I think this is actually a good opportunity for construction crews to get things done with fewer people on the roads! Thoughts?

How much independent work can be done on the road? Any face to face communication - foremen explaining days job to workers, engineers setting up the project on site, etc.
Last time I checked, NY has a minimum of 3 people on the road doing pothole work.
Upstate may be good for another week or two, but sheter-in-place will be the next step. And no money for roads for at least a few months - if you're optimistic. 

[Max Rockatansky]

Upthread, Kalvado spoke of countries where coronavirus testing can be finished within fifteen minutes.

Meanwhile, here in Kansas the state has just written off Johnson County, which has 12 cases and known community spread, because it is feared that any significant expansion of testing there will burn through the supply of test kits for the whole state.  Patients in the county will now be tested only when they are hospitalized.

At the moment, Kansas has a total of 23 cases (12 in Johnson, 5 in Wyandotte, 2 in Leavenworth, 1 each in Douglas, Franklin, Butler, and Ford Counties, all but the last two being in the northeast part of the state).

If you think about how the situation developed... US firmly joined the third world.
CDC reported early on that they shipped diagnostic kits - but restricted the use so that infection could spread. They banned research teams not certified for such from doing tests - and once they disobeyed and found infection spreading, banned the team from any tests.
Then it was reported one of 3 CDC primers gives uncertain results, whatever that means.
Now it is reported that second primer has high rate of false positives.
Foreign assistance, of course, got refused, and now US has no even poorly performing tests.

First time in my life when I think the death penalty is not just justified, but has to be liberally applied to those in charge. 

This is not current administration failure, this is systematic failure on many levels, and same problem goes to 737MAX, same goes to roundabout design.

I would certainly hope that's a fringe use of sarcasm but given the way this thread seems to be going at times I'm not really all that sure.

Well, bureaucracy and unqualified technical stuff result in deaths. I do think this has to be investigated as a crime, and that the death penalty is an appropriate sentence.
They usually argue that the threat of such a penalty should stop criminal minds from acting - which doesn't seem to be the case. But it can very well work for white-collar killers,  who should see their responsibility as a personal thing, not abstract matter as they are shielded by government immunity. Third world realities.

The fact that you're serious talking about executing people in my opinion shoots your credibility completely to hell.  People like you who suggest things like this are just as a big of a problem in terms of spreading fear and discontent as those who would do nothing.

I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. But current bureacracy is not doing honest mistakes, it is actually working against the people. Some of those bureaucrats need deep reality check. As deep as personal responsibility for their actions, in eye for eye style.
Credible or not... Maybe I just understand the freefall we're in better than you do?

You're the one who seems to be okay with the notion of rounding up and offing people who didn't do things the way you would have wanted them done.

[kalvado]

You're the one who seems to be okay with the notion of rounding up and offing people who didn't do things the way you would have wanted them done.

Third world problems require third world solutions.
again, I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. A lot of what happened in coronavirus situation goes way above and beyond honest mistake. And that becomes a trend, not a one-off situation.

[DJStephens]

  Bill Richardson's "rail runner" is apparently shut down until at least April 6th.   

[Max Rockatansky]

You're the one who seems to be okay with the notion of rounding up and offing people who didn't do things the way you would have wanted them done.

Third world problems require third world solutions.
again, I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. A lot of what happened in coronavirus situation goes way above and beyond honest mistake. And that becomes a trend, not a one-off situation.

You don't sound like you'd be forgiving in the least.  You're the one seriously stating that people should be killed for what is going on.  You're the one who fails to grasp the insanity of the notion of rounding up people and executing them.  That statement is just as ugly and repulsive as those who were making comments about charging people with murder for wanting to be with their family in times of crisis (in the instance lethal disease transmission were to occur).  Maybe I'm the one who is wrong and we're no better in society than what you're calling for...I sure hope to hell that isn't the case. 

To that end, does anyone have any ACTUAL news on what is going on in their areas and not crap conjecture like what we're getting now?

[kalvado]

You're the one who seems to be okay with the notion of rounding up and offing people who didn't do things the way you would have wanted them done.

Third world problems require third world solutions.
again, I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. A lot of what happened in coronavirus situation goes way above and beyond honest mistake. And that becomes a trend, not a one-off situation.

You don't sound like you'd be forgiving in the least.  You're the one seriously stating that people should be killed for what is going on.  You're the one who fails to grasp the insanity of the notion of rounding up people and executing them.  That statement is just as ugly and repulsive as those who were making comments about charging people with murder for wanting to be with their family in times of crisis (in the instance lethal disease transmission were to occur).  Maybe I'm the one who is wrong and we're no better in society than what you're calling for...I sure hope to hell that isn't the case. 

To that end, does anyone have any ACTUAL news on what is going on in their areas and not crap conjecture like what we're getting now?

You see, what I am saying is pretty simple - official who signs on a dotted line should bear responsibility for the document.
Someone signed off this document as an official CDC update: https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/HAN00427.asp
there is a table there called "Criteria to Guide Evaluation and Testing of Patients Under Investigation (PUI) for 2019-nCoV". There is a middle coloumn saying "AND" - someone did type those letters on their keyboard, and someone put their name on a release document. Those three letters now cost lives. Should we look at the dotted line for the name of the responsible person?
I do remember it very well for a few reasons,  they also had a colorful poster to go along. And those letters made me raise eyebrows. Especially since CDC reported shipping out thousands of tests a few days before.

[kalvado]

To that end, does anyone have any ACTUAL news on what is going on in their areas and not crap conjecture like what we're getting now?

As far as I understand, things are not that bad YET. Problems are still to come.

[Max Rockatansky]

You're the one who seems to be okay with the notion of rounding up and offing people who didn't do things the way you would have wanted them done.

Third world problems require third world solutions.
again, I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. A lot of what happened in coronavirus situation goes way above and beyond honest mistake. And that becomes a trend, not a one-off situation.

You don't sound like you'd be forgiving in the least.  You're the one seriously stating that people should be killed for what is going on.  You're the one who fails to grasp the insanity of the notion of rounding up people and executing them.  That statement is just as ugly and repulsive as those who were making comments about charging people with murder for wanting to be with their family in times of crisis (in the instance lethal disease transmission were to occur).  Maybe I'm the one who is wrong and we're no better in society than what you're calling for...I sure hope to hell that isn't the case. 

To that end, does anyone have any ACTUAL news on what is going on in their areas and not crap conjecture like what we're getting now?

You see, what I am saying is pretty simple - official who signs on a dotted line should bear responsibility for the document.
Someone signed off this document as an official CDC update: https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/HAN00427.asp
there is a table there called "Criteria to Guide Evaluation and Testing of Patients Under Investigation (PUI) for 2019-nCoV". There is a middle coloumn saying "AND" - someone did type those letters on their keyboard, and someone put their name on a release document. Those three letters now cost lives. Should we look at the dotted line for the name of the responsible person?
I do remember it very well for a few reasons,  they also had a colorful poster to go along. And those letters made me raise eyebrows. Especially since CDC reported shipping out thousands of tests a few days before.

Yes it is simple, you are trying to justify executing people.  I didn't miss the point you were trying to make.

[kalvado]

You're the one who seems to be okay with the notion of rounding up and offing people who didn't do things the way you would have wanted them done.

Third world problems require third world solutions.
again, I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. A lot of what happened in coronavirus situation goes way above and beyond honest mistake. And that becomes a trend, not a one-off situation.

You don't sound like you'd be forgiving in the least.  You're the one seriously stating that people should be killed for what is going on.  You're the one who fails to grasp the insanity of the notion of rounding up people and executing them.  That statement is just as ugly and repulsive as those who were making comments about charging people with murder for wanting to be with their family in times of crisis (in the instance lethal disease transmission were to occur).  Maybe I'm the one who is wrong and we're no better in society than what you're calling for...I sure hope to hell that isn't the case. 

To that end, does anyone have any ACTUAL news on what is going on in their areas and not crap conjecture like what we're getting now?

You see, what I am saying is pretty simple - official who signs on a dotted line should bear responsibility for the document.
Someone signed off this document as an official CDC update: https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/HAN00427.asp
there is a table there called "Criteria to Guide Evaluation and Testing of Patients Under Investigation (PUI) for 2019-nCoV". There is a middle coloumn saying "AND" - someone did type those letters on their keyboard, and someone put their name on a release document. Those three letters now cost lives. Should we look at the dotted line for the name of the responsible person?
I do remember it very well for a few reasons,  they also had a colorful poster to go along. And those letters made me raise eyebrows. Especially since CDC reported shipping out thousands of tests a few days before.

Yes it is simple, you are trying to justify executing people.  I didn't miss the point you were trying to make.

Well, modern day execution is a mostly painless death. Within next 2-3 months we'll be talking about thousands people who are going to slowly suffocate in full consciousness without medical help, without as much as morphine shot. Are you trying to justify that?
Yes, this is very blunt description. But it is an accurate one.

[Plutonic Panda]

Anyone that thinks the US is third world should humble themselves, to visit a third world society(which isn't hard, we border one) and gain some perspective.

[bandit957]

Anyone that thinks the US is third world should humble themselves, to visit a third world society(which isn't hard, we border one) and gain some perspective.

I live in a third world country. It's called Campbell County.

[Plutonic Panda]

Anyone that thinks the US is third world should humble themselves, to visit a third world society(which isn't hard, we border one) and gain some perspective.

I live in a third world country. It's called Campbell County.

Campbell is my first name. I guess I should try harder.

[Scott5114]

Working from home helps to keep the mind busy, otherwise I'm in paradise cause now everyone is online to play games 

The quarantines have been pretty good for my state of mind, to be honest. I was in desperate need of a vacation before this, but didn't have the ability to take one. Now I do, even if it's a "staycation". Which is just fine with me.

I also have a side business printing and selling plastic playing cards, which I can devote more attention to with the day job out of the way for the time being. Website traffic is way up because of people trapped at home wanting to learn new games to pass the time. I'm glad that I can help people find ways to make the isolation period a little less dreary. And if I get some sales off of it, I should have no problem sending them out, so long as USPS is running, because I have gobs of inventory here in the house with me.

[DaBigE]

You're the one who seems to be okay with the notion of rounding up and offing people who didn't do things the way you would have wanted them done.

Third world problems require third world solutions.
again, I am all for forgiving honest mistakes. A lot of what happened in coronavirus situation goes way above and beyond honest mistake. And that becomes a trend, not a one-off situation.

You don't sound like you'd be forgiving in the least.  You're the one seriously stating that people should be killed for what is going on.  You're the one who fails to grasp the insanity of the notion of rounding up people and executing them.  That statement is just as ugly and repulsive as those who were making comments about charging people with murder for wanting to be with their family in times of crisis (in the instance lethal disease transmission were to occur).  Maybe I'm the one who is wrong and we're no better in society than what you're calling for...I sure hope to hell that isn't the case. 

To that end, does anyone have any ACTUAL news on what is going on in their areas and not crap conjecture like what we're getting now?

You see, what I am saying is pretty simple - official who signs on a dotted line should bear responsibility for the document.
Someone signed off this document as an official CDC update: https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/HAN00427.asp
there is a table there called "Criteria to Guide Evaluation and Testing of Patients Under Investigation (PUI) for 2019-nCoV". There is a middle coloumn saying "AND" - someone did type those letters on their keyboard, and someone put their name on a release document. Those three letters now cost lives. Should we look at the dotted line for the name of the responsible person?
I do remember it very well for a few reasons,  they also had a colorful poster to go along. And those letters made me raise eyebrows. Especially since CDC reported shipping out thousands of tests a few days before.

Yes it is simple, you are trying to justify executing people.  I didn't miss the point you were trying to make.

Well, modern day execution is a mostly painless death. Within next 2-3 months we'll be talking about thousands people who are going to slowly suffocate in full consciousness without medical help, without as much as morphine shot. Are you trying to justify that?
Yes, this is very blunt description. But it is an accurate one.

We may be dealing with those things in that timeframe and we may not. Despite most of the current news coverage, positive strides are being made in the fight.

[DaBigE]

Working from home helps to keep the mind busy, otherwise I'm in paradise cause now everyone is online to play games 

The quarantines have been pretty good for my state of mind, to be honest. I was in desperate need of a vacation before this, but didn't have the ability to take one. Now I do, even if it's a "staycation". Which is just fine with me.

I wish I could say the same thing. While the commute is definitely shorter, it's made CAD work much more frustrating, having to work over VPN. We still have a lot of deadlines to meet, so there's no taking time off and lounging in front of Netflicks or Hulu. That, and now my wife is also working from home, too -- her having taken over the dining room table, while I work out of the office/bedroom. Couples do need time apart.   A one bedroom apartment is not big enough and isn't helping... neither is the weather, which hasn't been very friendly to getting outside. Nature decided piled on top as well, being "that time of the month". 

[RobbieL2415]

Anyone that thinks the US is third world should humble themselves, to visit a third world society(which isn't hard, we border one) and gain some perspective.

I live in a third world country. It's called Campbell County.

Is that where they make Campbell's Soup?

[J N Winkler]

You see, what I am saying is pretty simple - official who signs on a dotted line should bear responsibility for the document.

Someone signed off this document as an official CDC update: https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/HAN00427.asp

there is a table there called "Criteria to Guide Evaluation and Testing of Patients Under Investigation (PUI) for 2019-nCoV". There is a middle coloumn saying "AND" - someone did type those letters on their keyboard, and someone put their name on a release document. Those three letters now cost lives. Should we look at the dotted line for the name of the responsible person?

I do remember it very well for a few reasons,  they also had a colorful poster to go along. And those letters made me raise eyebrows. Especially since CDC reported shipping out thousands of tests a few days before.

That HAN (which has no signature, BTW, thus opening the possibility that it was approved by a committee or working group rather than an individual) is dated February 1, 2020.  Were we aware at the time that asymptomatic/pre-symptomatic transmission was possible?  I myself was not, until I read a MedicineNet article dated February 20 that was based on research (involving German evacuees from Hubei province) published in the New England Journal of Medicine on February 18.

This is a problem of testing strategy and, as such, is separate from the quality control problems (the third reagent leading to inconclusive results) that held up testing until the CDC agreed that tests using just the first two elements could be accepted as valid.  That, in turn, is separate from the regulatory issues that prevented foreign tests from being used.  There is apparently another layer of potential problems that arise from labs varying in their ability to enforce the process control that is required for reliable results, and that has had implications for certifying labs to test.

I certainly agree that we need a full postmortem (along the lines of the 9/11 Commission and the Challenger and Columbia inquiries) on what went wrong with testing at a time when the US had just dozens of confirmed cases and containment without mass disruption was still an option.  But fairness requires us to hold the CDC scientists accountable on the basis of the information they had in hand when they had to make the critical decisions.  One aspect of the testing mess I have not been able to find much information about is the reliability of the foreign tests as compared to the CDC's.  I have read that in an early phase in their crisis, the Chinese were making do with tests that yielded a 50% false negative rate, and current tests are generically described as having a 10% false negative rate because throat and nose swabs don't always capture what the virus is doing in the bottom of the lungs.

Plus, organizations tend to rot from the head down.  It was Trump, not anyone working for the CDC, who justified eliminating the CDC's pandemic response team in terms of not wanting to have people sitting around doing nothing while waiting for the next crisis.  And I have read it was Bolton's decision to eliminate the pandemic unit within the NSC (itself an Obama-era creation that I suspect had much to do with the swine flu crisis).

[Bruce]

The Canadian border is now closed for non-essential travel. Enclaves like Point Roberts are stuck. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/confusion-uncertainty-as-officials-announce-u-s-canada-border-restrictions-to-slow-coronavirus/

[kevinb1994]

The Canadian border is now closed for non-essential travel. Enclaves like Point Roberts are stuck. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/confusion-uncertainty-as-officials-announce-u-s-canada-border-restrictions-to-slow-coronavirus/

Point Roberts eh...I know of a Roberts Road to the south of here so maybe there's a historical connection between the two.

[mgk920]

In order to have had stopped this virus from spreading, the borders to the United States would have had to been shut down back in January. No one would have ever allowed that and would have crucified anyone who suggested it.

IIRC, the Feds did that at that time WRT passenger airline flights from much or all of China and perhaps one or two other places in eastern Asia.  Yes, 'usual suspects' were reaming Donald Trump out for that for being an "anti-Asian *RACIST*!!!  ".



Mike

[mgk920]

I wonder how long it will be, especially here in Wisconsin, before we start seeing a redux of the super-private illegal 'Speakeasy' bars that were commonplace 90-95 years ago, when beverage alcohol was unconstitutional?

"Knock twice and ask for Gus."





Mike

[jakeroot]

The University of Washington has announced that Spring Quarter (late March to early June) will take place entirely online:

https://www.washington.edu/coronavirus/2020/03/18/uw-spring-quarter-classes-will-be-held-remotely-message-to-students/

This is my final quarter prior to graduation. Needless to say, not exactly the way I imagined going out. Really hoping that a proper graduation won't be cancelled.

I've heard from my friends that other area schools will also be online-only (Tacoma Community College among them), but I cannot confirm that at the moment.

[amroad17]

Anyone that thinks the US is third world should humble themselves, to visit a third world society(which isn't hard, we border one) and gain some perspective.

I live in a third world country. It's called Campbell County.

Does that make Kenton County a second world county? 

[kevinb1994]

Anyone that thinks the US is third world should humble themselves, to visit a third world society(which isn't hard, we border one) and gain some perspective.

I live in a third world country. It's called Campbell County.

Does that make Kenton County a second world county? 

Wawt the uck are yaw tawkin' 'bawt?