Slate: 'New Jersey ban on self-service gasoline: The madness must stop'

[agentsteel53]

I am proud to be a true Christian and love all my brothers and sisters no matter what race, color, sex, or creed is and always have.

Jesus says please stop yelling. your posts make you sound like you're foaming at the mouth as you type.

[SteveG1988]

Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

[PHLBOS]

I am proud to be a true Christian and love all my brothers and sisters no matter what race, color, sex, or creed is and always have.

...please stop yelling. your posts make you sound like you're foaming at the mouth as you type.

Unless roadman65 was intentionally typing in all CAPS; how do you know that he's yelling?

Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[agentsteel53]

how do you know that he's yelling?

ending an unusual amount of his sentences with an exclamation point!

Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I think each business should be allowed to make that decision on their own, without a state mandate forcing one or the other.

[SteveG1988]

how do you know that he's yelling?

ending an unusual amount of his sentences with an exclamation point!

Let the voters of the state decide if they want self serv or not, that's how it should be.

If 51% want it, then most voters in the state want it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I think each business should be allowed to make that decision on their own, without a state mandate forcing one or the other.

It is currently a law, the repeal or not should come down to the people of New Jersey deciding as a whole

[agentsteel53]

It is currently a law, the repeal or not should come down to the people of New Jersey deciding as a whole

I disagree - it should be wholesale repealed, and the people of New Jersey can vote with their wheels which gas stations to patronize.

[PHLBOS]

It is currently a law, the repeal or not should come down to the people of New Jersey deciding as a whole

I disagree - it should be wholesale repealed, and the people of New Jersey can vote with their wheels which gas stations to patronize.

If it's a State Law in the books (NJ's & OR's ban on self-service is), then repealing such would have to be done either through the legislative process or a referendum ballot process.  Stations can't just randomly break a law, even a stupid one, long-term without getting caught.

Your vote with their wheels theory only works along the state's borders provided that the gas station which offers self-service in that neighboring state has a competitive price and is not separated by a toll facility.

Post-referendum (if placed on the ballot and wins a vote); stations will then still have the option of only being full-serve (though most won't likely remain that way) and motorists will then have the full freedom to vote with their wheels without actually leaving the state to do so.

[agentsteel53]

done either through the legislative process

exactly.

public referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

[PHLBOS]

public referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

In many instances, it tends to be quicker and less time-consuming to repeal an unpopular law via public referendum (when allowed) rather than going through the legislative process.

IMHO, politicians have more pressing issues to debate/vote on other than repealing a ban on self-service. 

[agentsteel53]

public referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

In many instances, it tends to be quicker and less time-consuming to repeal an unpopular law via public referendum (when allowed) rather than going through the legislative process.

IMHO, politicians have more pressing issues to debate/vote on other than repealing a ban on self-service.

as long as the referendum is in favor of more freedom.

I've had a very, very negative view of referenda ever since California's awful Proposition 8.

[NJRoadfan]

The Clearview, MY EYES, HOW THEY BURN! 

I find it quite the opposite. Clearview is a nice font for typesetting flyers and such, it just looks bad on most highway signs.

I don't mind full serve. With NJ stations mostly having "cash discount" split pricing, I'd rather pay the guy at the pump the exact amount if I fill the tank. Going inside the store to pay cash in self serve states is the pits. Luckily the "cash discount" thing isn't all that common outside of NJ. Never having to leave the car on a cold and/or rainy day is another plus. I never had a problem with someone scratching my car either.

As for exceptions to the rule, you are allowed to pump your own diesel if you have one since the law only covers dispensing of gasoline. Also I have pumped gas at my job's fleet pumps so I'm guessing they are excluded as well. I know some guy isn't going to pop out of the shadows and pump gas for me at the maintenance yard!

[Indyroads]

I've had a very, very negative view of referenda ever since California's awful Proposition 8.

I can see your point look at all the super expensive bond issues for clean whales and saving the air, er i mean clean air nad saving the whal, or whatever. billions of dollars in bonds that have to be paid back with interest all voted by majority rule. The referendum process isn't without it's flaws. However i did vote for prop 8 but also realize if that same vote were held today it would have gone down in flames. by a landslide. The times they have a-changed.

When it comes to roads however it seems hard to get people to vote for a referendum to improve roads. On the other hand repealing full-service laws may also be difficult especially due to union interests.

FWIW I have always hated the political ad campaigns in California where they trot out the children and the elderly like pawns to jerk at the heartstrings of the people. It's maddening. Besides the ads are so blatantly misleading and bloated with double talk on both sides that no one  can make sense of it. I am sure NY and NJ are equally bad when it comes to the political seasons. 

[agentsteel53]

clean whales and saving the air

a clever way of making fun of California's perceived moonbatism.

er i mean clean air nad saving the whal

a ... not so clever of doing the same thing? 

postmodern comedy is weird.

FWIW I have always hated the political ad campaigns in California where they trot out the children and the elderly like pawns to jerk at the heartstrings of the people. It's maddening. Besides the ads are so blatantly misleading and bloated with double talk on both sides that no one  can make sense of it. I am sure NY and NJ are equally bad when it comes to the political seasons.

it's every state in which advertising executives operate.  I hate them too, as they exhort people to vote with their base instincts as opposed to their brains.  the aforementioned prop 8's co-opting of those stupid family stickers that people put on the back of their SUVs... somehow, even more ludicrous than the stickers to begin with.

[hubcity]

I'll make this point again.

Independent retailers are competitive.

Major retailers want costs slashed.

Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away. And after they get the edge, independent retailers go away, and major retailers get to set the prices however they'd like.

I have no problem preserving full-serve.

[agentsteel53]

Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away.

why is that?

[jeffandnicole]

public referenda should not be used to force a selection between two valid non-opposing options.  if 51% of New Jersey wants A, and 49% wants B, and A and B can coexist, then B should not be made illegal.

In many instances, it tends to be quicker and less time-consuming to repeal an unpopular law via public referendum (when allowed) rather than going through the legislative process.

IMHO, politicians have more pressing issues to debate/vote on other than repealing a ban on self-service. 

Basically, Yes.  When Christie first became governor, he mentioned considering self-serve.  Many people in the state yelled loudly against that idea, because, I guess, once you have something that many consider one of the few nicities in a state with high taxes, high rates, etc, people feel like they are getting something for their money.  And people will bring up any and every excuse why we need full-serve, although the way I see it, any and all of those excuses can be contridicted by the fact that 48 other states have self-serve, and those people get along just fine.

I'm quite sure as well that many of those people that yell and scream that we absolutely must have self-serve eventually move out of the state, and unless they are moving to Oregon, they manage quite well pumping their own gas wherever they wind up.

Since there's no mass group of people protesting on the state house steps demanding self-serve gas, it's an issue that most politicians just aren't going to waste their time dealing with.

Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away.

why is that?

If gas was permitted to be a loss-leader, then I can absolutely see this being true.  In NJ, gas must be sold at a profit. (Not sure how many other states have this law.  In NJ, I know gas and alcohol can't be sold for less than cost, but most other products can be sold as loss-leaders).

Technically, there's very few independents anymore - the gas stations are almost all branded.  But I think hubcity is mostly referring to those that have convenience stores for a customer to shop at during/before/after pumping their gas.

[Brandon]

Technically, there's very few independents anymore - the gas stations are almost all branded.  But I think hubcity is mostly referring to those that have convenience stores for a customer to shop at during/before/after pumping their gas.

Actually, there are three types of filling stations:

1. Corporate owned.  These tend to be owned by the actual brand on the sign.  Common ones include Speedway and most new BP locations.

2. Jobbers.  Jobbers are middlemen in the petroleum business.  They own the fuel and the location but lease the actual station to someone else.

3. Independents.  Independents tend to own their own filling station(s) and purchase fuel from the refiner.  Independents can be a small mom-and-pop operation, or a large corporation like Circle K.  Some "brands" that tend to be almost all independents or jobbers include Marathon and most other so-called big brands (Shell, Mobil, etc).

Now for the dirty secret of fuel.  The fuel you purchase in an area comes from a refiner in that area, be it Citgo, BP, or ExxonMobil around Chicagoland.  If you buy fuel at any filling station in the Chicago area, it comes from one of these three refineries, even if it is branded "Shell", "Phillips 66", or "Thorntons".  Any additives to the fuel are added later, at the actual filling station to make it "different".  That BP fuel may not have come from the BP refinery in Whiting, Indiana.  It may have come from the Citgo refinery in Romeoville, Illinois, and just have BP's additives added at the filling station.

[briantroutman]

When Christie first became governor, he mentioned considering self-serve.  Many people in the state yelled loudly against that idea...

Several times, I've seen bumper stickers and T-shirts: "Jersey Girls don't pump their own gas". In a public speaking class during my undergrad at Penn State, a classmate (from NJ) did a presentation on how great his home state was–and statewide full-serve was one of his bragging points. After 50 years, is full-serve perhaps a vital part of NJ state identity, and Jerseyans will cling to it–even perhaps misguidedly–just because they place full-serve right up there with pork roll and "which exit" as part of what makes them who they are?

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but if the fuel retailers are against full-serve, I would think it's not as much because of the cost associated with keeping pump jockeys on staff but rather because a motorist who stays seated behind the wheel while refueling is less likely to go into the convenience store and buy overpriced stuff–which is where all the profit is now made, I understand.

As to the whole issue of full-serve gasoline in general–I'm against. I've had enough icy interchanges with mouth breathers behind checkouts who can't even be bothered to say "hello" that I gladly welcome self checkouts at stores, kiosk ordering at fast food restaurants, pay-at-pump gas, etc. Human interaction has been priced out of the bottom tier of customer service to the point that the flunkies that are being hired have absolutely no interpersonal skills. If I want a human interaction, I'll save it for a nice evening where I'm paying real money at a legitimate restaurant, checking into a nice hotel–or better yet, spending quality time with friends and family that I actually care about.

And for an example of lousy full-serve (from Duel)... http://bit.ly/1fD5I2K
Just the first 30 seconds or so. Yeah...protecting the groundwater and all of that...

[agentsteel53]

mouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs.  the economy ain't all that good.  if you're gonna be in a customer-facing position, at least pretend to be enthusiastic.  because hey, you're not unemployed.

[agentsteel53]

If gas was permitted to be a loss-leader, then I can absolutely see this being true.  In NJ, gas must be sold at a profit. (Not sure how many other states have this law.  In NJ, I know gas and alcohol can't be sold for less than cost, but most other products can be sold as loss-leaders).

I'm not sure if I agree.  if gas is a loss-leader, or a zero-profit-leader, as the case may be, then you want people going into your store to buy profitable items.  having them sit in the car because they don't need to pump gas is not the way to encourage them to take the extra 25 steps to the store front.

[jeffandnicole]

If gas was permitted to be a loss-leader, then I can absolutely see this being true.  In NJ, gas must be sold at a profit. (Not sure how many other states have this law.  In NJ, I know gas and alcohol can't be sold for less than cost, but most other products can be sold as loss-leaders).

I'm not sure if I agree.  if gas is a loss-leader, or a zero-profit-leader, as the case may be, then you want people going into your store to buy profitable items.  having them sit in the car because they don't need to pump gas is not the way to encourage them to take the extra 25 steps to the store front.

Remember, I was responding to the comment "Major retailers get the edge if full-serve goes away". So they would be exiting their cars and pumping gas.

[agentsteel53]

you're right, I've lost track of the argument.  and I'm alas too lazy to find it 

[hbelkins]

Paying at the pump with a credit or debit card also discourages people from going in and buying overpriced candy bars and bags of salty snacks, even if you have to get out of your car to pump your own gas.

Since I usually keep cold drinks with me when I travel, and I tend not to snack, the only reason I go in a gas station if I stop to fuel up is if I need to relieve myself -- unless it's Sheetz, when I usually get a MTO meal.

[Indyroads]

Paying at the pump with a credit or debit card also discourages people from going in and buying overpriced candy bars and bags of salty snacks, even if you have to get out of your car to pump your own gas.

Since I usually keep cold drinks with me when I travel, and I tend not to snack, the only reason I go in a gas station if I stop to fuel up is if I need to relieve myself -- unless it's Sheetz, when I usually get a MTO meal.

Actually convenience stores do extremely well in non gasoline sales in every place I have been with self service. I have to wait in line nearly every time I go in.

Self serve may actually be good for business. besides most galsoline stations make their real money onthe concessions anyway not on the gasoline.

[NJRoadfan]

Whats interesting is that some of the lowest priced gas stations are the ones without convenience stores. Quite a few have mechanics garages in their place. NJ tends to have more "non-branded" stations than most states too. The big chains (Exxon, Shell, etc) are, on average, usually more expensive in a given area.

The only economies of c-stores that full serve changes are the crappy/run down ones. If a station has a well run c-store (ex: Wawa), its busy. With cash payment at the pump becoming more common in self serve states, even that excuse will become moot.