Slate: 'New Jersey ban on self-service gasoline: The madness must stop'

[formulanone]

mouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs.  the economy ain't all that good.  if you're gonna be in a customer-facing position, at least pretend to be enthusiastic.  because hey, you're not unemployed.

Partially because retailers used to hire 16-year-olds who were enthusiastic to make minimum wage; replacing them with 40-year-olds at the same rate doesn't usually raise their enthusiasm bar.

The employer gets someone who might be able to make decisions, and it's economically fair, but the consumer potentially gets someone who doesn't give a rat's behind either way.

[agentsteel53]

I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

[agentsteel53]

Partially because retailers used to hire 16-year-olds who were enthusiastic to make minimum wage; replacing them with 40-year-olds at the same rate doesn't usually raise their enthusiasm bar.

you're saying that there is no one enthusiastic available?

are 16 year olds not looking for work these days?

[formulanone]

Well, there are few exciting jobs for teenagers to start their careers...although, they're probably more likely to steal from their employers. Still, 1.50% a year annually is barely a minor economic shift, at most.

[Scott5114]

mouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs.  the economy ain't all that good.  if you're gonna be in a customer-facing position, at least pretend to be enthusiastic.  because hey, you're not unemployed.

Capitalism works both ways. If you have excellent interpersonal skills, you are a more valuable asset to an potential employer, and can probably find a job for more than minimum wage doing something more intellectually stimulating than running a register. (Not to mention having excellent interpersonal skills helps immensely when landing a job.) Those hiring for minimum-wage jobs are scraping the bottom of the barrel because the cream of the crop is rising above their level.

you're saying that there is no one enthusiastic available?

are 16 year olds not looking for work these days?

Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

[hbelkins]

Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

Kentucky requires those selling alcohol to be 21. If someone under 21's running a register at Walmart and a customer comes through with beer, they have to get someone over 21 to come ring up the order.

[agentsteel53]

another perfectly valid reason to lower the drinking age to 16.

you may as well get the revenue, instead of having people steal it.

[MASTERNC]

There's another little known law related to gas stations I discovered while in NJ this past weekend.  I happened to run into a BJ's warehouse club with a gas station (there are few warehouse clubs in NJ with gas and I surmised it was because of the full service requirement).

Short story is I waved my credit card and BJ's membership card to the attendant and he told me he only needed the credit card. He proceeded to scan a card on a lanyard instead of the member's card.  That is when I noticed the price signs did not say "Member Price".

After doing some digging online, it turns out restricting gas purchases to members is against NJ law, so even non-members can get the much lower warehouse club prices.  That is probably another reason why BJ's only has 2-3 gas stations in NJ (I think the same is true with Costco).

[D-Dey65]

The last time I bought gas there, self-service was illegal in the Town of Huntington too. But guess what; I pumped my own gas there once anyhow. Nobody raised a stink over it, nobody called the cops on me or the owner of the station or anything like that. The guy was kind of surprised that I did it and came in to pay for it, but it wasn't such a big deal to either of us.

I kind of see it more or less like Roadgeek Adam; It won't kill me if I don't pump my own gas, and it won't kill me if I do. I tend to look at it like some of the items on cars that were mere luxuries 40+ years ago.

[Duke87]

I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I think the logic behind such a policy is mostly to keep shady characters from using the bathroom to have sex, do drugs, and/or something else that's bad PR to have happening there. Note how in big cities needing a key is expected, while in rural areas it's rare unless the station is right off the interstate.

This correlates directly with other varying policies, like whether a fast food joint will have the soda machine and condiments behind the counter or out in the dining room for self service. More homeless people looking to eat ketchup and barbecue sauce = they keep it behind the counter and won't give you any unless you buy food. Fast food joints in such areas often also require a key to the bathroom (or for the attendant behind the counter to buzz you in) in order to prevent shady activities and also to enforce "bathroom is for paying customers only", although the practice is less common than with gas stations.



Anyways, on the original subject... I refuse to buy gas at any full serve station on principle, which by default means I do not buy gas in New Jersey. And I simply plan to avoid doing so. If I do not have enough gas to make it through New Jersey, I will stop and get gas before entering it. If I'm going down near Cape May, which is pushing it for a round trip from NYC on one tank, I will make a detour to stop in Pennsylvania on the way down or the way back, and use that as an excuse to do some roadgeeking.

Oregon's bigger size makes such avoidance trickier. I have never been there, but I could totally see myself driving through Idaho to get from California to Washington just to avoid having to buy gas in Oregon.

[vdeane]

How far can you get on a tank?  I-5 in Oregon is only 310 miles.

[Brandon]

Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

Kentucky requires those selling alcohol to be 21. If someone under 21's running a register at Walmart and a customer comes through with beer, they have to get someone over 21 to come ring up the order.

However, not all states are that way.  Illinois is like Kentucky in that way, but Michigan is not.  In Michigan, a person under the age can sell alcohol, but cannot buy or consume alcohol.

[briantroutman]

mouth breathers

I wonder how they manage to hold jobs....

Capitalism works both ways. If you have excellent interpersonal skills, you are a more valuable asset to an potential employer, and can probably find a job for more than minimum wage doing something more intellectually stimulating than running a register.

Which gets back to my original point–if labor is expensive enough that the only people who staff the convenience stores, fast food restaurants, etc., are the cheapest, otherwise unemployable flunkies, I'd much rather use a self-service kiosk, self-checkout, etc.

For the most part, kiosks aren't going to give have body odor problems, have poor language skills, or press the Double Meat button when you very clearly said "veggie burger".

The world has changed a great deal–for better and for worse–as labor has gotten progressively more expensive (even adjusted for inflation). 50+ years ago, it was economic for mainstream middle-class families to mend clothes, cook their own meals...and even work as a lowly clerk in a store or behind the counter at a diner. But as wages have increased, it's not worth the average, decently clean and educated person's time to do such things.

[NE2]

In before Costco and decent wages.

[jeffandnicole]

After doing some digging online, it turns out restricting gas purchases to members is against NJ law, so even non-members can get the much lower warehouse club prices.

This is probably one of the better laws in NJ pertaining to gas, and it had been relatively unknown.  At Sams Club, they don't even need to swipe a card.  Both the Sams Club & BJ's in Deptford have gas, and they generally are about 5c or so cheaper than other stations.  This particular Sams Club is newer and has 5 dual sided pumps; but most of the time they only use 3 of them (a situation that never arises in other states unless the pump is not working).  The BJ's added the fueling pumps well after their store opened (probably a good 10-15 years later), after Sams added theirs.  It's quite common to find lines at both stations, indicating that word is getting around that anyone can purchase gas at the stations.

Both stations are credit only, no cash. 

Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

Kentucky requires those selling alcohol to be 21...

However, not all states are that way.  Illinois is like Kentucky in that way, but Michigan is not.  In Michigan, a person under the age can sell alcohol, but cannot buy or consume alcohol.

NJ allows anyone to sell cigs.  You must be 19 to buy them, although there is no age limit to smoke them (which is true in most states). With alcohol, while it's obviously 21 to purchase and consume at a retail store/restaurant/bar, an 18 year old can own a liquor license and purchase alcohol to resell! Also, 18 year olds can work, bartend & serve at a restaurant/bar.  16 to be a busboy.  And Lottery...18 to purchase, any age can win (in other words, a 6 year old could technically be given a ticket as a gift and collect the winnings outright, rather it being put into a trust).

[1995hoo]

I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

What I hate is the (rare in my experience, but still intensely annoying) situation where a gas station has a convenience store but has no restrooms open to the public. I distinctly remember at least one Boy Scout ski trip to Seven Springs in the late 1980s where a gas station operator in Somerset, PA, was adamant that the restroom was for employees only. A couple of us whose bladders were about to explode just might have gone around and whizzed on the side of the building out of view of the street.....

[roadman65]

I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

What I hate is the (rare in my experience, but still intensely annoying) situation where a gas station has a convenience store but has no restrooms open to the public. I distinctly remember at least one Boy Scout ski trip to Seven Springs in the late 1980s where a gas station operator in Somerset, PA, was adamant that the restroom was for employees only. A couple of us whose bladders were about to explode just might have gone around and whizzed on the side of the building out of view of the street.....

The Customer is always right is no longer a valid phrase anymore.   Apparently to most business owners think that customers need us more than we need them, especially with gas, because we need gas to go to do almost anything!   However, I have found that phrase to only to be used exclusively by management to employees to follow in any business even though they themselves do not practice it. 

Its about upkeep as a bathroom takes a lot to maintain.  Ask yourself, what room in the house is the hardest to keep clean?  There is no law stating that all businesses have to have them and even at one time the Borough of Seaside Park, NJ once charged 75 cents to use the restroom on the Boardwalk.  I do not know if that is legal anymore or not, but was the norm for beachgoers in swimsuits that had no wallets or purses on them.

[Brandon]

I think the most loathsome "bring customers near the merchandise" maneuver is forcing someone to walk up to the register, pass all the impulse items, and ask for the bathroom key.

I have walked out before even pumping gas if that shit is pulled on me.  congratulations, you just lost a paying customer.

What I hate is the (rare in my experience, but still intensely annoying) situation where a gas station has a convenience store but has no restrooms open to the public. I distinctly remember at least one Boy Scout ski trip to Seven Springs in the late 1980s where a gas station operator in Somerset, PA, was adamant that the restroom was for employees only. A couple of us whose bladders were about to explode just might have gone around and whizzed on the side of the building out of view of the street.....

The Customer is always right is no longer a valid phrase anymore.   Apparently to most business owners think that customers need us more than we need them, especially with gas, because we need gas to go to do almost anything!   However, I have found that phrase to only to be used exclusively by management to employees to follow in any business even though they themselves do not practice it. 

Its about upkeep as a bathroom takes a lot to maintain.  Ask yourself, what room in the house is the hardest to keep clean?  There is no law stating that all businesses have to have them and even at one time the Borough of Seaside Park, NJ once charged 75 cents to use the restroom on the Boardwalk.  I do not know if that is legal anymore or not, but was the norm for beachgoers in swimsuits that had no wallets or purses on them.

It depends on the state.  Some states actually require all businesses to have a restroom, even if it is just for employees only.  Illinois Plumbing Code Section 890.170:

Each building which is intended for human habitation or occupancy shall have a connection to a public water system, a semi-private water system, or a private water supply constructed in accordance with the requirements of the Illinois Water Well Construction Code (77 Ill. Adm. Code 920) or the Surface Source Water Treatment Code ( 77 Ill. Adm. Code 930), and a connection to a public sewer system or private sewage disposal system constructed to the requirements of the Illinois Private Sewage Disposal Code (77 Ill. Adm. Code 905).  All installations shall also be in accordance with any additional applicable State and local laws, ordinances, rules and regulations and local codes.

This is interpreted as all permanent buildings occupied by humans, not just residences as below:

Section 890.810:

b)         Required Restroom Facilities and Drinking Fountains
1)         Employee Restrooms and Drinking Fountains
A)        Restroom facilities and drinking fountains shall be provided for all employees within each place of employment.

2)         Public Restrooms and Drinking Fountains
A)        General Requirements.
i)          Buildings with 5,000 square feet of gross public area or with occupancies of 100 or more persons shall provide public restrooms and drinking fountains as shown in Appendix A: Table B.  Buildings other than those exceptions in subsection (b)(2)(B) of this Section, with less than 5,000 square feet of gross public area, or with occupancies of fewer than 100 persons, need not provide public restrooms and drinking fountains.

ii)         All businesses selling motor vehicle fuel to the public (regardless of their gross area) shall provide at least one public restroom for male use and one public restroom for female use.

So when Mr. Nogottabathroom tells you he does not have one for public use at a gas station, he's lying and breaking the law in Illinois.

[roadman65]

I would think that the ADA would have changed things and require a public restroom in all businesses.  Then again we are supposed to be having healthcare made easy for everyone to get real soon, yet the law states that we the consumer are the ones that have to go out of our way to find it.  So it is obvious that laws always have loop holes in them, or there is something else hidden in them that is the real intent for the law instead of what we would believe the law is.

[bugo]

Most convenience stores will not hire anyone under the age of 18 or 21 because they now sell alcohol, cigarettes, etc. and it is a pretty bad idea to put someone in charge of selling goods they are not legally allowed to purchase themselves.

The store I work at won't hire anybody under 21 because of beer sales.

[bugo]

another perfectly valid reason to lower the drinking age to 16.

you may as well get the revenue, instead of having people steal it.

We've had a few beer runs late at night, and the perpetrators were most likely under 21.

[bugo]

The station where I work loses money on gas.  It is sick that oil companies make such insane profits while the stores lose money.  It's not right.

[roadman65]

Well the demand is on us.  We cannot work, go to school, or to the grocery store without use of a car.  The Oil Companies do have us over a barrel literally!

[Compulov]

NJ allows anyone to sell cigs.  You must be 19 to buy them,

This a new law? One of the things I did on my 18th birthday was buy a pack of cigarettes. Not because I wanted to smoke them (and in fact, I gave them to someone who smoked because I didn't actually smoke), but just because "Hey, I'm 18 and I can!" Man, I can't believe how stupid I was...

[agentsteel53]

beer runs

I find it funny that you use this term for shoplifting beer.  when I say "beer run", I mean "hey, someone who's sober, here's 20 bucks, go run down to the store and buy us some beer?  we're running out."