Coronavirus pandemic

[oscar]

How are the emergency coronavirus restrictions any different than temporarily setting the fire marshal limit to 10 in every building?

Or, for another common approach, limiting occupancy to X% of the fire marshal's occupancy limit, to allow more space per customer.

The WalMart I went to this afternoon had a temporary reduced occupancy limit (higher than 10, given the size of the store), and a long line of people waiting outside for previous customers to leave. (Too bad it was out of stock for what I wanted, so my wait was mostly futile.) 

[Duke87]

Personally, what I would like to see is how these countries were able to reduce them so fast, especially in regards to their Shutdown/Lockdown rules.

By reacting quickly and swiftly.

Based on what we've seen from old samples being tested ex post facto and autopsies, it's clear the virus was already in the US and spreading by the end of February. We just weren't aware of the scope of the problem because of a completely botched federal response that resulted in a month-long delay in the country having test kits available in any useful quantity and quality.

If we had shut everything down a few weeks sooner than we did, our graph might look like those above. But instead, we likely blew past the point of no return without realizing it and so we're going to be stuck dealing with this until it runs its course.

[kalvado]

How are the emergency coronavirus restrictions any different than temporarily setting the fire marshal limit to 10 in every building?

Problem is, I suspect, is what we grew up with. It is fairly natural, starting from pre-school, that room capacity is limited. Fy fire code, by square footage, by air volume and what not. Same for, e.g., bus capacity, plane weight etc. Even Times Square or big sports arena have their capacity numbers. 
Now there is a new limitation reducing those numbers - and it is no longer natural, but a heavy-handed regulation.

[SSOWorld]

And now everything's opening up while we're still climbing in places (Iowa - now above 10K after passing WI and IL - which is now catching up with Joisey.)

[LM117]

The governor of NC has announced a modified stay-at-home order, as well as details regarding the transition to Phase 1 of easing restrictions.

https://governor.nc.gov/news/governor-cooper-announces-modified-stay-home-order-and-transition-phase-1-easing-restrictions

[kalvado]

Personally, what I would like to see is how these countries were able to reduce them so fast, especially in regards to their Shutdown/Lockdown rules.

By reacting quickly and swiftly.

Based on what we've seen from old samples being tested ex post facto and autopsies, it's clear the virus was already in the US and spreading by the end of February. We just weren't aware of the scope of the problem because of a completely botched federal response that resulted in a month-long delay in the country having test kits available in any useful quantity and quality.

If we had shut everything down a few weeks sooner than we did, our graph might look like those above. But instead, we likely blew past the point of no return without realizing it and so we're going to be stuck dealing with this until it runs its course.

"sooner" doesn't make a difference. Question is how to reduce transmission rate and quench the spread - and this is something US fails at while other countries can manage the task.
US as a whole still has 1.0 spread factor after a month of shutdown - and most states are above 0.8, meaning little wiggle room for opening up from current restrictions. We have people On this forum pretty much defying masks requirements. The THing I like most - there are photos of police in CA without masks... Well, good luck arresting the spread, officers. You cannot handcuff this virus, you know...

[kphoger]

We have people On this forum pretty much defying masks requirements.

I hope that wasn't aimed at me, because I don't live under a single mask requirement, nor have I even entered a building that had one.  The only time I've worn a mask was to try it on after my wife made them like a month and a half ago.

[Roadgeekteen]

And now everything's opening up while we're still climbing in places (Iowa - now above 10K after passing WI and IL - which is now catching up with Joisey.)

I think we have to start sort of opening up. The goal of quarantine was to slow the spread, not get rid of corona). Some states are opening up to fast though.

[kphoger]

How are the emergency coronavirus restrictions any different than temporarily setting the fire marshal limit to 10 in every building?

Or, for another common approach, limiting occupancy to X% of the fire marshal's occupancy limit, to allow more space per customer.

A few key differences:

(1)  In those situations, the government wouldn't be telling you (or anyone else) that you can't go in the building.  You would be perfectly free to go there, just not when there are more than a certain number of other people there.  And, once inside, you'd be perfectly free to associate with the other people there.  In the situation we have now, there are jurisdictions telling every citizen they're flat-out not allowed to go somewhere.

(2)  Fire marshal codes exist because, if more people than that limit are in the property at once, then it has been determined to cause imminent danger to the others in case of a fire–by virtue of the very number of people on the premises.  That's not the same thing as saying that you are by your very existence an imminent danger to another person without even having been determined to be carrying the virus.

[kalvado]

We have people On this forum pretty much defying masks requirements.

I hope that wasn't aimed at me, because I don't live under a single mask requirement, nor have I even entered a building that had one.  The only time I've worn a mask was to try it on after my wife made them like a month and a half ago.

Meanwhile, KS is above 1.0 spreading factor. Good luck, mask orders may not apply, but Darwin theory does-  regardless of your opinion about it.

[Roadgeekteen]

How are the emergency coronavirus restrictions any different than temporarily setting the fire marshal limit to 10 in every building?

Or, for another common approach, limiting occupancy to X% of the fire marshal's occupancy limit, to allow more space per customer.

A few key differences:

(1)  In those situations, the government wouldn't be telling you (or anyone else) that you can't go in the building.  You would be perfectly free to go there, just not when there are more than a certain number of other people there.  And, once inside, you'd be perfectly free to associate with the other people there.  In the situation we have now, there are jurisdictions telling every citizen they're flat-out not allowed to go somewhere.

(2)  Fire marshal codes exist because, if more people than that limit are in the property at once, then it has been determined to cause imminent danger to the others in case of a fire–by virtue of the very number of people on the premises.  That's not the same thing as saying that you are by your very existence an imminent danger to another person without even having been determined to be carrying the virus.

Until we have a way to test everyone, you never know if you have the virus or not. And this thing can spread like wildfire. You could be asymptomatic.

[hotdogPi]

We have people On this forum pretty much defying masks requirements.

I hope that wasn't aimed at me, because I don't live under a single mask requirement, nor have I even entered a building that had one.  The only time I've worn a mask was to try it on after my wife made them like a month and a half ago.

Meanwhile, KS is above 1.0 spreading factor. Good luck, mask orders may not apply, but Darwin theory does-  regardless of your opinion about it.

Surprisingly, despite many of the states in this area being "never lockdown" states, that can't be the only cause – Minnesota, which was previously doing really well, is just like the nearby states in doing poorly.

[jeffandnicole]

Personally, what I would like to see is how these countries were able to reduce them so fast, especially in regards to their Shutdown/Lockdown rules.

By reacting quickly and swiftly.

Based on what we've seen from old samples being tested ex post facto and autopsies, it's clear the virus was already in the US and spreading by the end of February. We just weren't aware of the scope of the problem because of a completely botched federal response that resulted in a month-long delay in the country having test kits available in any useful quantity and quality.

If we had shut everything down a few weeks sooner than we did, our graph might look like those above. But instead, we likely blew past the point of no return without realizing it and so we're going to be stuck dealing with this until it runs its course.

The country doesn't have an endless supply of secret stash of test kits for the virus.  They need to be developed, created, produced, whatever. 

This is also a lot of Monday-morning quarterbacking.  Try to think back to mid February.  We knew the virus was in China, and heard of the restrictions they were undergoing there.  Would you have been open to an economic shutdown in February?  Most people, at the time, would've said No.  Most people now would say yes, even though those same people were laughing and posting memes about how the Coronavirus was causing a toilet paper shortage.

[SEWIGuy]

How are the emergency coronavirus restrictions any different than temporarily setting the fire marshal limit to 10 in every building?

Or, for another common approach, limiting occupancy to X% of the fire marshal's occupancy limit, to allow more space per customer.

A few key differences:

(1)  In those situations, the government wouldn't be telling you (or anyone else) that you can't go in the building.  You would be perfectly free to go there, just not when there are more than a certain number of other people there.  And, once inside, you'd be perfectly free to associate with the other people there.  In the situation we have now, there are jurisdictions telling every citizen they're flat-out not allowed to go somewhere.

(2)  Fire marshal codes exist because, if more people than that limit are in the property at once, then it has been determined to cause imminent danger to the others in case of a fire–by virtue of the very number of people on the premises.  That's not the same thing as saying that you are by your very existence an imminent danger to another person without even having been determined to be carrying the virus.

You're really just splitting hairs here.  The fact is that the government at times has a compelling interest to restrict assembly in a reasonable manner.  The questions then are "is the interest compelling?" And "is the restriction reasonable?"

[NWI_Irish96]

Personally, what I would like to see is how these countries were able to reduce them so fast, especially in regards to their Shutdown/Lockdown rules.

By reacting quickly and swiftly.

Based on what we've seen from old samples being tested ex post facto and autopsies, it's clear the virus was already in the US and spreading by the end of February. We just weren't aware of the scope of the problem because of a completely botched federal response that resulted in a month-long delay in the country having test kits available in any useful quantity and quality.

If we had shut everything down a few weeks sooner than we did, our graph might look like those above. But instead, we likely blew past the point of no return without realizing it and so we're going to be stuck dealing with this until it runs its course.

The country doesn't have an endless supply of secret stash of test kits for the virus.  They need to be developed, created, produced, whatever. 

This is also a lot of Monday-morning quarterbacking.  Try to think back to mid February.  We knew the virus was in China, and heard of the restrictions they were undergoing there.  Would you have been open to an economic shutdown in February?  Most people, at the time, would've said No.  Most people now would say yes, even though those same people were laughing and posting memes about how the Coronavirus was causing a toilet paper shortage.

China lied about the virus, which is big part of why the US reacted slowly.  Even with the bad info from China, the US should have immediately gone into lockdown mode once we knew how bad it was and utilized the Defense Production Act to mass produce as many test kits a day as possible until we had a billion of them.  Literally every factory that could possibly make them should have been making them.  I'm not certain a different administration would have reacted a lot better, but they couldn't have done worse.

[ixnay]

Surprisingly, Indiana is actually encouraging tourism this week.

Umm...no. There is nothing...NOTHING in the media here in Indianapolis actively promoting people to head out for tourist reasons.

Perhaps they are airing on the Cincinnati stations.  Cincinnati is fairly close to Indiana.  Per his profile, bandit957 lives in Bellevue, KY which is across from Cincy.

ixnay

[Max Rockatansky]

The National Park Service is moving forward with phases reopenings:

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/us-national-parks-reopen-week-124213381.html

Looks like Bryce Canyon is the place to be short term. 

[CoreySamson]

Does anyone here know the effect supermarkets are having on the coronavirus spread?

From what I've seen, no grocery stores are shutting down due to coronavirus spread among its workers, but meat processing plants are? I'd think coronavirus would spread more quickly in grocery stores than in meat processing centers or churches or parks. I'd think the workers who've interacted with the most people since coronavirus came here would probably be grocery store workers.

If the government is so intent on reducing coronavirus transmission, then why did they not tell grocery stores to use curbside pickup or delivery only instead of potential contamination in the stores, since grocery stores were literally one of the only public places that were open in full a couple weeks ago? Seems fishy to me.

[Roadgeekteen]

The National Park Service is moving forward with phases reopenings:

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/us-national-parks-reopen-week-124213381.html

Looks like Bryce Canyon is the place to be short term.

Hopefully GSMNP opens up. I was thinking of going there.

[LM117]

A security guard at a Family Dollar in Flint, MI was shot and killed for telling a customer to wear a mask.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/michigan-security-guard-mask-killing-trnd/index.html

This is insane.

[oscar]

If the government is so intent on reducing coronavirus transmission, then why did they not tell grocery stores to use curbside pickup or delivery only instead of potential contamination in the stores, since grocery stores were literally one of the only public places that were open in full a couple weeks ago? Seems fishy to me.

Delivery services are overloaded in my area.

As for curbside pickup, that requires customers to know exactly what they want, that it's in stock, etc., sight unseen (especially for produce, you might not trust store workers to pick out the items for your order, either for delivery or curbside). Then a lot of store labor to assemble the orders and bring them out to the curb. I know some Wal-Marts offer curbside pickup, but it'd probably be a real PITA if everybody had to use it.

Keep in mind that some of the people who need to shop for food aren't tech-savvy, or even have computers or cellphones. Also, sometimes you need something immediately, such as if your family is preparing a dish and finds it's missing an ingredient.

[Max Rockatansky]

The National Park Service is moving forward with phases reopenings:

https://uk.style.yahoo.com/us-national-parks-reopen-week-124213381.html

Looks like Bryce Canyon is the place to be short term.

Hopefully GSMNP opens up. I was thinking of going there.

I got two visits to Yosemite in during the winter and one at Pinnacles before all this crap started.  I would be really happy to see Sequoia/Kings Canyon reopen since it's an hour from my house.  Yosemite will get a lot of interest given it is far more well known.  I just want to get on some back trails and GTFO out this city.  Running 20 extra miles a week on increasingly busy streets is wearing thin in the tooth, "Safer on Trail"  I say. 

[Max Rockatansky]

City of Clovis voted to reopen:

https://www.clovisroundup.com/city-council-votes-5-0-to-reopen-city-will-not-enforce-shelter-in-place-order/

Apparently Clovis is taking a hands off approach to the Governor's order akin to Modoc County.  The City of Fresno is allowing most retail and certain other businesses to reopen this week but has a standing order to May 31st.  The City Council of Clovis had some interesting things to say about one-size fits all orders not working for smaller communities...kind of a common snarky shot around these parts. 

[vdeane]

Does anyone here know the effect supermarkets are having on the coronavirus spread?

From what I've seen, no grocery stores are shutting down due to coronavirus spread among its workers, but meat processing plants are? I'd think coronavirus would spread more quickly in grocery stores than in meat processing centers or churches or parks. I'd think the workers who've interacted with the most people since coronavirus came here would probably be grocery store workers.

If the government is so intent on reducing coronavirus transmission, then why did they not tell grocery stores to use curbside pickup or delivery only instead of potential contamination in the stores, since grocery stores were literally one of the only public places that were open in full a couple weeks ago? Seems fishy to me.

Around here, grocery stores are taking actions to limit the spread.  One-way aisles, mandated social distancing in checkout line, etc.  Plus it's not just a binary fact that you're near a person, length and intensity of contact matter.  When you're in line at the grocery store, you're standing six feet apart, and you're only there a few minutes at most (I've been using the self-checkouts, so no wait).  People in meat packing plants, in contrast, stand shoulder to shoulder with other people for hours on end.

There's also the political element to this.  Most people won't notice if their meat comes from a different plant.  They will notice if they can't go in to the store and get groceries.  I for one would be absolutely livid if I couldn't go into the store and do my shopping myself, ESPECIALLY with these shortages.  If there's something that's out that day, then I need to either go to additional stores or get an approved alternate product (sometimes both, and sometimes even the approved alternates are out too, leaving me to scramble to figure out something workable).  I would not want someone else to be handling that process for me.

Personally, what I would like to see is how these countries were able to reduce them so fast, especially in regards to their Shutdown/Lockdown rules.

By reacting quickly and swiftly.

Based on what we've seen from old samples being tested ex post facto and autopsies, it's clear the virus was already in the US and spreading by the end of February. We just weren't aware of the scope of the problem because of a completely botched federal response that resulted in a month-long delay in the country having test kits available in any useful quantity and quality.

If we had shut everything down a few weeks sooner than we did, our graph might look like those above. But instead, we likely blew past the point of no return without realizing it and so we're going to be stuck dealing with this until it runs its course.

The country doesn't have an endless supply of secret stash of test kits for the virus.  They need to be developed, created, produced, whatever. 

This is also a lot of Monday-morning quarterbacking.  Try to think back to mid February.  We knew the virus was in China, and heard of the restrictions they were undergoing there.  Would you have been open to an economic shutdown in February?  Most people, at the time, would've said No.  Most people now would say yes, even though those same people were laughing and posting memes about how the Coronavirus was causing a toilet paper shortage.

The same is true for other countries.  They managed.  We didn't - because we had a federal government that  dragged its feet, rather than quickly reacting when the first intelligence reports showed China was lying.  It doesn't help that certain officials wanted to keep our official case counts low at all costs (remember the cruise ship we almost didn't let dock because "it would make the numbers look bad"?).  Also because we insisted on having the CDC develop its own test instead of accepting the WHO test like everyone else did.

We also dragged out feet with the travel bans.  Our ban for China had a ton of holes, and we went WAY too long before extending it to Europe, and as a result, New York became a hot spot.  We should have shut down travel with the entire EU the moment community spread was detected in Italy.  The moment we knew that the disease could spread without a fever, we should have closed our borders completely to non-citizens who had been in (not just coming from) countries with any community spread in the last two weeks and subjected returning citizens from those countries to a mandatory quarantine on a military base.

[webny99]

I tire of people complaining about how the coronavirus has impacted their rights -- the coronavirus isn't some foreign power taxing tea -- no matter which option society takes there is going to be a bitter pill to swallow.

Could not agree more. It's a time for listening, learning, and reflecting. Rebelling, protesting, bringing up the Constitution as if it has been violated, etc., etc., seems to me to be petty, foolish, and impractical. It should be clear by now that the goal is to end this thing as soon as possible without costing too many lives, and criticize all you want, but I think everything that our government (and really, most Western governments) has done has been done quite pointedly to that end.

This crisis has, if nothing else, exposed a fundamental lack of trust by Americans in government. I'm not saying it's entirely unwarranted, but I am saying it's an incredible privilege to live in a democracy to begin with, and now is probably the most important time ever to just be trusting it, and letting this thing run its course. After all, there are much bigger issues at stake than one's own rights here. You would think the least one could do is not contribute to the problem by sowing more mistrust than there already is.