Pedestrian Countdown Signals

[DaBigE]

One practice that the city of Madison, Wisconsin has adopted is starting to annoy me and I was curious how wide-spread this practice is:
When the pedestrian countdown is active, not only do the numerals flash, they flash at a different rate than the flashing hand symbol. Until the city embraced the flashing yellow arrow, this was a slight oddity, but now in conjunction with the FYA, it is downright annoying, especially at night and on corridors with a lot of signals. With so many flashing lights, it begins to become a bit overwhelming (I can only imagine what it's like for the elderly driving population).

The majority of installations I've seen outside of Madison employ the countdown in a steady, non-flashing state, which disappears a second or two after the zero has been displayed (WisDOT typical). (My personal preference)

Thoughts on this? Any other agencies do what Madison does?

[hotdogPi]

I have seen numbers starting from 12 to about 70.

The flashing hand has started sometimes as low as 3 and as high as 18.

I have seen one stuck at 3 and one stuck at 15. (both Washington DC)

The strangest one: It started at a random number between 24 and 30. After 22 seconds, it would jump to 5 (was between 2 and 8 before) and turned into the flashing hand. (Washington DC)

Also, sometimes the clicking noise means "go", and sometimes it means there is a flashing hand.

[Milepost61]

Flashing countdown numerals are extremely rare around here, I know I've seen them once or twice but can't remember where. They're all pretty much steady-on, turning on when the hand starts flashing and turning off at 0 (which is what the MUTCD requires for all new ped signals).

[hotdogPi]

The MUTCD doesn't allow the numbers turning on when walking starts?

[Big John]

The MUTCD doesn't allow the numbers turning on when walking starts?

Correct. 

4E.07  2009 MUTCD

05 The display of the number of remaining seconds shall begin only at the beginning of the pedestrian change interval (flashing UPRAISED HAND). After the countdown displays zero, the display shall remain dark until the beginning of the next countdown.

06 The countdown pedestrian signal shall display the number of seconds remaining until the termination of the pedestrian change interval (flashing UPRAISED HAND). Countdown displays shall not be used during the walk interval or during the red clearance interval of a concurrent vehicular phase.

[Revive 755]

^ A stupid prohibition IMHO; it should be an option to have the countdown start while the walk phase is up in areas with lots of elderly or handicapped persons who may have difficulty clearing the crosswalk but there are capacity issues that hinder allocating more time for the phase.

[Brandon]

In Chicago, the countdown starts at the beginning of the flashing hand phase and usually goes for about 20-30 seconds.  At the end of the countdown, the hand goes solid, and the light turns yellow.  From a driver's perspective, it is most useful as one can guess how long until the yellow light comes on.

[jeffandnicole]

I've seen the numerals flash on occasion, but that's fairly rare. 

^ A stupid prohibition IMHO; it should be an option to have the countdown start while the walk phase is up in areas with lots of elderly or handicapped persons who may have difficulty clearing the crosswalk but there are capacity issues that hinder allocating more time for the phase.

Actually, the flashing don't walk time is supposed to be timed to allow nearly anyone to cross the street in time.  On occasion (especially in cities) the timing is way, way too short though for even moderately fast people to cross in time.

[Central Avenue]

Not using the countdown during the walk phase seems sensible to me, because the walk phase isn't necessarily always going to be a fixed duration. Consider the setup where the more heavily-traveled road would rest on green/walk until traffic is detected on the cross street.

[deathtopumpkins]

Not using the countdown during the walk phase seems sensible to me, because the walk phase isn't necessarily always going to be a fixed duration. Consider the setup where the more heavily-traveled road would rest on green/walk until traffic is detected on the cross street.

But there are situations where it will be a fixed duration - when the signal is purely on a timer, or when a vehicle triggers it to change, but there is a delay before it actually changes. I think it's helpful to know.

[Mdcastle]

In Grant's Pass, OR the walk phase ends before the main vehicle phase. California usually has an automatic pedestrian phase, so I was used to using the pedestrian countdowns to let me know when the light was going to turn yellow. In Grant's Pass the counter was expiring so I slowed way down, but the light stayed green even after the hand turned on, and I seriously pissed off a truck driver behind me.

[agentsteel53]

In Grant's Pass, OR the walk phase ends before the main vehicle phase. California usually has an automatic pedestrian phase, so I was used to using the pedestrian countdowns to let me know when the light was going to turn yellow. In Grant's Pass the counter was expiring so I slowed way down, but the light stayed green even after the hand turned on, and I seriously pissed off a truck driver behind me.

are there any pairs of pedestrian and vehicular lights which work the opposite way?  i.e. the light turns red, and the pedestrian counter is still on "8" or whatnot.

[Mdcastle]

I was on a one-way so I don't think so.

[Billy F 1988]

Missoula got into the counter signals themselves pretty much with everyone else in phasing out the standard walking man and hand gesture. They're common nowadays in Missoula. I think by the early 2000's the pedestrian countdown signals were implemented into Missoula. There are some that are activated by button, some automated like those in the downtown district. I don't really mind the countdown signals.

[myosh_tino]

In Grant's Pass, OR the walk phase ends before the main vehicle phase. California usually has an automatic pedestrian phase, so I was used to using the pedestrian countdowns to let me know when the light was going to turn yellow. In Grant's Pass the counter was expiring so I slowed way down, but the light stayed green even after the hand turned on, and I seriously pissed off a truck driver behind me.

Because many signals in the San Jose area adjust their green cycle based on traffic volume (up to some preset maximum time), having a signal remain green after the countdown timer reaches zero is fairly common.  I, as a general practice, don't base my decision to slow down solely on the pedestrian countdown timer.  I look at the traffic signal.

[Brandon]

In Grant's Pass, OR the walk phase ends before the main vehicle phase. California usually has an automatic pedestrian phase, so I was used to using the pedestrian countdowns to let me know when the light was going to turn yellow. In Grant's Pass the counter was expiring so I slowed way down, but the light stayed green even after the hand turned on, and I seriously pissed off a truck driver behind me.

Because many signals in the San Jose area adjust their green cycle based on traffic volume (up to some preset maximum time), having a signal remain green after the countdown timer reaches zero is fairly common.  I, as a general practice, don't base my decision to slow down solely on the pedestrian countdown timer.  I look at the traffic signal.

Most signals in Illinois are the same way.  However, those in the city of Chicago turn yellow when the counter runs out.

[tradephoric]

Because many signals in the San Jose area adjust their green cycle based on traffic volume (up to some preset maximum time), having a signal remain green after the countdown timer reaches zero is fairly common.  I, as a general practice, don't base my decision to slow down solely on the pedestrian countdown timer.  I look at the traffic signal.

An adaptive signal will often have a stretch phase (usually the main-street thru phase) that isn't allowed to gap out early.   This is needed to maintain good coordination with surrounding signals (if every phase was allowed to gap the signal would run completely free and there would be no reference point to coordinate to).  Since the stretch phase doesn't gap, there's no reason why the main-vehicle and main-pedestrian phases can't end simultaneously.  A lot of agencies have different philosophies when it comes to pedestrian operations.   It could be that San Jose wants to end the main-street pedestrian phase as early as possible.

[Henry]

In Chicago, the countdown starts at the beginning of the flashing hand phase and usually goes for about 20-30 seconds.  At the end of the countdown, the hand goes solid, and the light turns yellow.  From a driver's perspective, it is most useful as one can guess how long until the yellow light comes on.

It's also very helpful to pedestrians who know when to cross, continue crossing, or stop until the walking man appears. Rule of thumb: If there's less than 5 seconds left, you probably should not go across.

[agentsteel53]

I would love to have a generic countdown timer that shows the currently planned interval 'til the next color change.

in the case of "no plan to change" (i.e. a main road with no side traffic triggering) leave it blank. 

in the case of a "non-gapped" main road, as described above, allow it to reset if needed.  people can get used to a green light timer which counts 10, 9, 8, ... 17, 16.  I don't think they'd mind it in the slightest.

[Central Avenue]

Not using the countdown during the walk phase seems sensible to me, because the walk phase isn't necessarily always going to be a fixed duration. Consider the setup where the more heavily-traveled road would rest on green/walk until traffic is detected on the cross street.

But there are situations where it will be a fixed duration - when the signal is purely on a timer, or when a vehicle triggers it to change, but there is a delay before it actually changes. I think it's helpful to know.

But then you'd end up with some intersections where the countdown starts during the walk phase and others where it doesn't start until the flashing don't walk. It wouldn't be terribly confusing, but it seems like it's better to have some consistency.

[JMoses24]

Here, the countdown clock is generally steady and doesn't flash (or at least, I haven't run into that yet).

I noted during coverage of the Capitol Hill chase/shooting this week that the signal where the suspect's car crashed actually counted down the entire walk phase. As noted, that's not allowed per MUTCD.

[roadfro]

Early countdown signals in Las Vegas flashed the number with the flashing hand. I believe many of these have been fixed/replaced to keep the numbers steady. Steady number display is now common in Nevada.

Nevada follows the more conservative approach to countdown displays, in that the countdown timer generally reaches 0 as the adjacent through signal turns yellow. There are exceptions to this, though.

The main reason for the countdown not appearing during the walk phase is, as others stated, variable lengths of walk phases due to varying green times (extensions, etc). It was thought that using the countdown during the flashing hand (which is always a fixed duration, by MUTCD standards) would be most uniform.

[mrsman]

In Chicago, the countdown starts at the beginning of the flashing hand phase and usually goes for about 20-30 seconds.  At the end of the countdown, the hand goes solid, and the light turns yellow.  From a driver's perspective, it is most useful as one can guess how long until the yellow light comes on.

When I was last in Chicago, about 10 years ago, one thing that struck me was that the hand would flash during the end of the green phase and continue flashing during the yellow phase.  In every other place, I've been to, the hand flashes during the green phase, then there is a steady hand and then the light turns yellow. 

My point of reference: Intersection of Touhy and California in the North End, near my friend's house.

Brandon, are you suggesting that with the advent of pedestrian count down timers, there is no more flash during the yellow phase?

And as a general follow-up question, is there any place where the count down timer continues to count down after the light turns yellow?  (I.e. that the count down timer is not yet zero when the light turns yellow?)

[Big John]

^^ Ending the countdown interval on yellow is still allowed, but there must be at least 3 seconds from the timer going to zero until the next phase starts.  http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part4/fig4e_02_longdesc.htm

Milwaukee also ended the dont walk phase at the end of the yellow light.  Not sure if they still do.

[Brandon]

In Chicago, the countdown starts at the beginning of the flashing hand phase and usually goes for about 20-30 seconds.  At the end of the countdown, the hand goes solid, and the light turns yellow.  From a driver's perspective, it is most useful as one can guess how long until the yellow light comes on.

When I was last in Chicago, about 10 years ago, one thing that struck me was that the hand would flash during the end of the green phase and continue flashing during the yellow phase.  In every other place, I've been to, the hand flashes during the green phase, then there is a steady hand and then the light turns yellow. 

My point of reference: Intersection of Touhy and California in the North End, near my friend's house.

Brandon, are you suggesting that with the advent of pedestrian count down timers, there is no more flash during the yellow phase?

And as a general follow-up question, is there any place where the count down timer continues to count down after the light turns yellow?  (I.e. that the count down timer is not yet zero when the light turns yellow?)

Yes, they are now steady during the yellow with the advent of the countdown timers.