What's Stopping Nationwide AET from Starting RIGHT NOW?

[Ned Weasel]

https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/covid19_info.aspx

From what I understand, all the toll road authorities could just install cameras and transponder readers at their existing booths, meaning drivers would have to slow down to anywhere between 5 and 20 MPH for a toll read, but cash payments and toll tickets could just go away. Toll roads could then upgrade to higher-speed toll gantries whenever they feel it's warranted.

Different but related question:  At first, I found it odd that the Mass Pike's completed AET conversion and the Penna Turnpike's future AET conversion were switching from an entry/exit-based tolling system to a mainline point-based "open" tolling system, but I have an educated guess as to why this is. Is it because of the chance of misreads? Say, if your entry point is misread, the only fair thing to do would be for the exit point to assume you got on at the closest entry point. And if your exit point is misread, you just got a free ride. But with multiple toll collection points spread through your trip, a single misread would only be a modest discount. Is this interpretation correct?

[1995hoo]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

[GaryV]

...
all the toll road authorities could just install
...

You pretty much answered your own question.  They could, but why, and at what cost?  What's in it for them?

[deathtopumpkins]

Different but related question:  At first, I found it odd that the Mass Pike's completed AET conversion and the Penna Turnpike's future AET conversion were switching from an entry/exit-based tolling system to a mainline point-based "open" tolling system, but I have an educated guess as to why this is. Is it because of the chance of misreads? Say, if your entry point is misread, the only fair thing to do would be for the exit point to assume you got on at the closest entry point. And if your exit point is misread, you just got a free ride. But with multiple toll collection points spread through your trip, a single misread would only be a modest discount. Is this interpretation correct?

Nothing to do with misreads. It's a combination of allowing free travel between certain exits, reducing the number of required gantries, and allowing for interchange reconfigurations. The current gantry locations allow free travel between exits 4 and 7 and 10 and 11, to allow local traffic to use the turnpike and relieve some of the burden on other, more congested roads. If gantries were located at every interchange, you'd need more of them, even without the free segments.

MassDOT is also planning on reconfiguring interchanges away from the congested double trumpets now that all interchange traffic doesn't need to pass through a single toll booth location, starting with exit 11A (the preferred concept for which can be found here [PDF]. It's a little disappointing, but does allow >40 mph on all movements with no weaving). Placing gantries on the mainline between interchanges means they won't be affected by this and future projects.

[jmacswimmer]

Different but related question:  At first, I found it odd that the Mass Pike's completed AET conversion and the Penna Turnpike's future AET conversion were switching from an entry/exit-based tolling system to a mainline point-based "open" tolling system, but I have an educated guess as to why this is. Is it because of the chance of misreads? Say, if your entry point is misread, the only fair thing to do would be for the exit point to assume you got on at the closest entry point. And if your exit point is misread, you just got a free ride. But with multiple toll collection points spread through your trip, a single misread would only be a modest discount. Is this interpretation correct?

Nothing to do with misreads. It's a combination of allowing free travel between certain exits, reducing the number of required gantries, and allowing for interchange reconfigurations. The current gantry locations allow free travel between exits 4 and 7 and 10 and 11, to allow local traffic to use the turnpike and relieve some of the burden on other, more congested roads. If gantries were located at every interchange, you'd need more of them, even without the free segments.

MassDOT is also planning on reconfiguring interchanges away from the congested double trumpets now that all interchange traffic doesn't need to pass through a single toll booth location, starting with exit 11A (the preferred concept for which can be found here [PDF]. It's a little disappointing, but does allow >40 mph on all movements with no weaving). Placing gantries on the mainline between interchanges means they won't be affected by this and future projects.

That was always my understanding as well, to allow for the free segments in Springfield and Worcester along with future interchange additions/re-configurations.

In regards to misreads though, I had an interesting situation happen last time I was up in Mass - entered the Pike from I-84 and continued east to Boston.  With my MD EZPass, this would mean $2.00 from 84 to 95/128 (and another $2.65 from there to downtown, but that's not the focus of this story).  When the charges appeared on my account several days later, this segment somehow split up into 2 overlapping charges - $1.40 from Charlton to Southborough, and another $1.40 from Hopkinton to Weston.  (Which means I essentially got double-charged at both Hopkinton & Southborough).

[hotdogPi]

Free segments already existed on the Mass Pike. For regular cars (and probably motorcycles?), exits 1-6 had the same toll no matter which exit you got off at, and going from one of those exits to another of those exits would be a $0.00 toll. This was removed before AET was implemented, but not by much.

[deathtopumpkins]

Tolls west of exit 6 were reinstated in 2013, before the AET contracts were even awarded, and long before it went live in 2016. Completely unrelated.

The AET project did eliminate the free segment between exits 16 and 17 in Newton though.

[jmacswimmer]

My understanding is that the free tolls west of exit 6 happened because Western Mass residents were complaining that their toll $$$ were going to the Big Dig on the other side of the state?

[Truvelo]

Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.

I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.

[Brandon]

Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.

I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.

Illinois is probably your easiest one.  You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.

[Truvelo]

Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.

I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.

Illinois is probably your easiest one.  You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.

Yes, there is the option to pay online if a toll has been missed. I remember having problems at the booth near the airport years ago which wouldn't turn green even though I paid the correct amount. This option is only available to US residents but someone on this forum was kind enough to pay for me to avoid a huge fee from the rental car company.

[kphoger]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

[Ned Weasel]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

[kphoger]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

I fail to see how it could be much different.

But actually, now that I think about it, I believe I misspoke earlier.  I should have said that states toll agencies or the companies to whom they outsource delinquent toll collection don't have access to other states' DMV records without specific agreements with those states.  So I guess the difference would be determined by how a particular police jurisdiction handles collecting camera violation fines.

[Brandon]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.

[kphoger]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.

Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?

[GaryV]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.

Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?

I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate.  It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come.  So yes, they share.

[kphoger]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.

Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?

I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate.  It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come.  So yes, they share.

I assume you mean you got a bill for a highway toll.  In that case, all it means is that the toll collector for ON-407 has an agreement with the Michigan DMV.  But that's not the same thing as getting issued a traffic violation ticket from a city PD.

[GaryV]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.

Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?

I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate.  It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come.  So yes, they share.

I assume you mean you got a bill for a highway toll.  In that case, all it means is that the toll collector for ON-407 has an agreement with the Michigan DMV.  But that's not the same thing as getting issued a traffic violation ticket from a city PD.

Correct.  This thread is about AET.  Traffic violations were an offshoot.

But still, what incentive does the Michigan Secretary of State have for giving my information to the ON-407 collector?  Maybe that's part of the surcharge for billing by mail - that they have to give MI a piece of the action to pay for the info?

[deathtopumpkins]

My understanding is that the free tolls west of exit 6 happened because Western Mass residents were complaining that their toll $$$ were going to the Big Dig on the other side of the state?

That was exactly the reason. Of course it ignores that the Boston economy heavily subsidizes the western half of the state, so they still benefited from it, but that's a whole other can of worms...

I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate.  It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come.  So yes, they share.

Meanwhile I never got a bill after driving it with Mass plates. Some states will, some won't.

[Ned Weasel]

This is also an offshoot topic, but I'm not sure it warrants its own thread--

In light of how problematic AET conversion actually is, for the aforementioned reasons (and is it really fair that someone from Kansas with a K-TAG would pay a toll on a Texas toll road but someone from Kansas without one wouldn't?), I've come up with a hypothetical idea for how ticket-based toll roads could eliminate tickets but still collect cash payments from customers without transponders (and this would also apply to the weird hybrid system on Oklahoma's Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes).

How technologically/economically/legally/politically feasible would this be?

On a ticket-based toll road, every time someone goes through an entry gate without a transponder, the driver would be required to slow down or stop just enough for a camera to photograph the vehicle's license plate and for sensors to count the vehicle's axles.  The system temporarily stores three pieces of data: the full license plate info (unique identifier), the axle count, and the entry location.  When the same vehicle goes through an exit gate, the driver would be required to stop, but a camera would photograph the driver's license plate, and the system would find the corresponding license plate identifier, axle count, and entry point.  The corresponding toll would be displayed on a screen at the booth, and the driver would simply have to toss the right amount of coins into a basket, or feed bills into a cash receptacle if necessary.  This would be completely touch-free unless the driver needs change, in which case, the cash machine could produce change just like a vending machine.  (In the case of the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes, the driver would need to collect the cash refund from the machine, in cases where a refund is applicable.)

If the system fails to read the vehicle's license plate at either point, the driver is charged for the entry point closest to his or her exit point and only for a two-axle vehicle (since the axle count would be lost).  If the system fails to read the vehicle's axle count, the driver is charged for a two-axle vehicle.

Vending machine-style toll collection is already being used.  This just removes the tickets from the system.

I'm also wondering if the logistical issues with existing AET systems might warrant the installation of coin baskets and/or cash machines on those roads.  Hmm--

[zzcarp]

Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.

I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.

Illinois is probably your easiest one.  You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.

Yes, there is the option to pay online if a toll has been missed. I remember having problems at the booth near the airport years ago which wouldn't turn green even though I paid the correct amount. This option is only available to US residents but someone on this forum was kind enough to pay for me to avoid a huge fee from the rental car company.

If you travel between Illinois and Ohio often, it may be worthwhile to get an IPass from the Illinois Tollway. No monthly fee and it's EZPass compatible. I got one when I moved to Colorado in 2006 for when I drove back east to Ohio or Ontario. It's also easy to add a rental car as a temporary car for your tolls. I even used it for my Penske moving truck to avoid stopping at the I-80 tollbooth south of Chicago.

[doorknob60]

Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.

It probably varies based on location and company, but I rented a car from Alamo in Boston (which was Costco Travel's cheapest option) last summer, and definitely was only charged $3.95 on each day I used it. This is confirmed on their website:

"The charge for TollPass™ Service under options 1 and 2 above is $3.95 per usage day, not to exceed $19.75 per rental period, plus the amount of each toll. There is no TollPass™ Service charge on rental days that you don't use a toll road. "

https://www.alamo.com/en_US/car-rental-faqs/toll-charges/northeast-us-tolls.html

All the cars there have toll pass devices built in, and you can disable them if you want.

I think the difference is some areas, the toll device is not included, and if you have to actually rent one, then they'll charge you each day no matter what. That said, the ~$20 maximum charge for the whole rental on what's likely a >$1000 trip is not a concern for most people I wouldn't think. Makes sense that Boston would include them on all the cars because you practically need to go through AET to leave the airport.

[ftballfan]

My dad got a bill from the I-65 bridges across the Ohio River both ways, but it took about a month for the bills to arrive

[hobsini2]

Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.

I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.

Illinois is probably your easiest one.  You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.

Yes, there is the option to pay online if a toll has been missed. I remember having problems at the booth near the airport years ago which wouldn't turn green even though I paid the correct amount. This option is only available to US residents but someone on this forum was kind enough to pay for me to avoid a huge fee from the rental car company.

Tru, Illinois has been replacing the old coin baskets with essentially a credit card and cash machine at the mainline and some ramp plazas. it's actually pretty simple. They look like this and are marked Self Service Lane. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7331128,-88.0352437,3a,72.1y,141.6h,101.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sl2RQnUNCdhTQJ1l2H71KYA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192