What's Stopping Nationwide AET from Starting RIGHT NOW?

[J N Winkler]

But still, what incentive does the Michigan Secretary of State have for giving my information to the ON-407 collector?  Maybe that's part of the surcharge for billing by mail - that they have to give MI a piece of the action to pay for the info?

From a compliance standpoint, I ask the opposite question:  if I drive on an electronic-only toll road in another jurisdiction without intending to pay, what incentive is there for KDOR not to knife me in the back by giving up my license plate information?  This is part of the reason I avoided Hwy. 407 the last time I visited Toronto.

This only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?

The tradeoff between upfront and recurring costs gets complicated for electronic toll collection, but in the old days, the rule of thumb was that collection expense was about one-third of revenues.  The cost of collecting the tax on liquid fuels for motor vehicles is about 1% of revenues (generally it is collected at the terminal, meaning the tax has already been paid long before the fuel is pumped into the storage tanks at the gas station).  Collection expense this low is basically impossible to achieve even with electronic toll collection because of the need to support individualized billing.

The overheads associated with toll collection are a large part of the reason relying on tolls as the principal (or sole) method of paying for express highway infrastructure results in its being underprovided (i.e., there are corridors where the potential savings to users would more than pay for the costs, but it is not available).  On the other hand, toll collection makes sense if you are looking to reduce congestion by pricing a segment of existing or potential users off the facility.

[webny99]

But still, what incentive does the Michigan Secretary of State have for giving my information to the ON-407 collector?  Maybe that's part of the surcharge for billing by mail - that they have to give MI a piece of the action to pay for the info?

From a compliance standpoint, I ask the opposite question:  if I drive on an electronic-only toll road in another jurisdiction without intending to pay, what incentive is there for KDOR not to knife me in the back by giving up my license plate information?  This is part of the reason I avoided Hwy. 407 the last time I visited Toronto.

Why would you get on a toll road without intending to pay?
You'd have to be expecting to get a bill at some point or another.

[kphoger]

Why would you get on a toll road without intending to pay?
You'd have to be expecting to get a bill at some point or another.

See below.

As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.

[jmacswimmer]

Similarly, it was known that Ontario plates could pass thru the Grand Island toll gantries on I-190 and never receive a bill (which has since been addressed):

https://buffalonews.com/2019/10/24/no-more-free-ride-ontario-drivers-now-must-pay-to-use-cashless-tolls-on-thruway/

[kphoger]

As far as I know, there is still no mechanism for TxTag to collect tolls from Mexican drivers.  So, unless I'm mistaken, using TX-130 on the way from Nuevo Laredo to Dallas is toll-free with Mexican plates.  I can easily imagine Mexican drivers deciding to use TX-130 only because they'll never have to pay the $42.46 round-trip toll.

[webny99]

As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.

Similarly, it was known that Ontario plates could pass thru the Grand Island toll gantries on I-190 and never receive a bill (which has since been addressed):

I would never use a toll road (or toll lane, to a lesser extent) and assume I was getting a free ride. I would assume a bill is coming at some point, pay it if it ever came, and consider myself lucky if it didn't.

But then, knowing whether or not I would be billed would not be high on the list of factors of deciding whether to use the facility. I would automatically use it if the time savings significantly outweighed the potential cost, which is probably "yes" during rush hour or on highly time sensitive trips, and "no" otherwise, weighted according to how expensive it is (so, more likely to be "no" for ON 407, for example).

[kphoger]

In the case of Dallas, as I mentioned up-thread, we had multiple field techs running routes every day with out-of-state license plates on their work trucks.  So, for them, it was certainly an advantage to use the toll roads for free–faster travel times between customers at no extra cost to them or us.

[webny99]

In the case of Dallas, as I mentioned up-thread, we had multiple field techs running routes every day with out-of-state license plates on their work trucks.  So, for them, it was certainly an advantage to use the toll roads for free–faster travel times between customers at no extra cost to them or us.

Of course. I'm not saying it's not advantageous, or should not be done.
But it should be done with the expectation that it's on borrowed time at best, while keeping the possibility of retroactive billing in mind and not using it just "because you can" unless there is a legitimate time savings.

Similarly, it was known that Ontario plates could pass thru the Grand Island toll gantries on I-190 and never receive a bill (which has since been addressed):

Should also note that in the case of this Grand Island example, Canadian drivers are going to be using the bridge regardless of whether or not they have to pay. It's only $1.00 flat rate, and there are no alternate routes (unless you count Tonawanda, which I definitely don't).

[Joe The Dragon]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.

Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?

I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate.  It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come.  So yes, they share.

And they slap the late fee on you

[hotdogPi]

I don't believe that NY or MA have any toll horror stories.

[hbelkins]

In the case of Dallas, as I mentioned up-thread, we had multiple field techs running routes every day with out-of-state license plates on their work trucks.  So, for them, it was certainly an advantage to use the toll roads for free–faster travel times between customers at no extra cost to them or us.

I'm still waiting for a bill for using the Bush Turnpike in Dallas 10 years ago.

However, I had a couple of misreads (actually, no-reads) from Pennsylvania a few years ago. One on the PA Turnpike (Bedford, I think) and one on the Mon-Fayette expressway; both on the same day. Got two separate mail violations with photos of the back of my vehicle. They'd gotten my Kentucky license plate information, and this was long before Kentucky was using E-ZPass on the Louisville bridges. I sent them a copy of my E-ZPass statement showing proof I have an E-ZPass account, and all was well.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I never received a bill from NTTA, which was now 4 1/2 years ago.

FDOT on the other hand will come find you even if it takes eight months to get you your bill.

[vdeane]

I think I've heard at least one case of a toll agency billing a driver years after the fact, once they got access to a new licence plate database.  So in that sense, not getting a bill is not the same thing as home free.  Plus a bill could be lost in the mail, too.  Yet more reasons why I don't want anything to do with bill by mail.

I don't believe that NY or MA have any toll horror stories.

NY actually has a ton:
https://dailygazette.com/article/2019/07/21/editorial-protect-drivers-from-unfair-toll-penalties
https://riverdalepress.com/stories/think-tolls-are-high-wait-until-you-see-the-fees,64982

(If you're wondering what happened with the Toll Payer Protection Act, Cuomo vetoed it again)

[GaryV]

Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.

I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states.  As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.  Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.

Hah, out-of-state discount! 

Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact

Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.

Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?

I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate.  It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come.  So yes, they share.

And they slap the late fee on you

They can't charge a late fee on a bill that was never sent, because they didn't know who I was until MI SOS told them.

I would automatically use it if the time savings significantly outweighed the potential cost, which is probably "yes" during rush hour or on highly time sensitive trips, and "no" otherwise, weighted according to how expensive it is (so, more likely to be "no" for ON 407, for example).

The charge on ON-407 on our return trip was well worth it to relieve the anxiety my wife had on ON-401 on the way out.

[J N Winkler]

I don't believe that NY or MA have any toll horror stories.

There is none current for either that I know of, but in the past the Thruway used to discard reads from transponders mounted in cars that exceeded the speed limit going through tolling zones, and hit the drivers with toll violations.

Of course. I'm not saying it's not advantageous, or should not be done.

But it should be done with the expectation that it's on borrowed time at best, while keeping the possibility of retroactive billing in mind and not using it just "because you can" unless there is a legitimate time savings.

What you need is certainty as to amount and incidence (in time and space) of the cost, so you can make a decision as to whether to take the toll road on the basis of full information.  This kind of certainty is provided not just by websites and signs giving rates and conditions of use, but also by legal protection against the toll authority hoarding license plate data it can't match until it can hit you with enormous bills years down the road, as NTTA (for example) has done.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I realize toll authorities want to eliminate takers to save money, but I've always wanted to take the extra minute just to pay a toll on site and be done with it. I don't want to have to deal with it weeks or months down the road.

[Ned Weasel]

I realize toll authorities want to eliminate takers to save money, but I've always wanted to take the extra minute just to pay a toll on site and be done with it. I don't want to have to deal with it weeks or months down the road.

Where they're not replacing toll collectors with AET, they're replacing toll collectors with self-pay machines.

[webny99]

I realize toll authorities want to eliminate takers to save money, but I've always wanted to take the extra minute just to pay a toll on site and be done with it. I don't want to have to deal with it weeks or months down the road.

That's why programs like EZPass are the best of both worlds, and are close enough to paying the toll on site IMO. I realize you may not be familiar with these types of programs being from a state (and extended region) that doesn't have many toll roads. You essentially prefund your account, and the balance reduces every time you go through a toll booth. You can set it up to auto-refill when it falls below a certain threshold, but if that's not for you, there's a message sign at the booth that warns you when your balance is low (at least on the Thruway... not sure about other states).

[Ned Weasel]

That's why programs like EZPass are the best of both worlds, and are close enough to paying the toll on site IMO. I realize you may not be familiar with these types of programs being from a state (and extended region) that doesn't have many toll roads. You essentially prefund your account, and the balance reduces every time you go through a toll booth. You can set it up to auto-refill when it falls below a certain threshold, but if that's not for you, there's a message sign at the booth that warns you when your balance is low (at least on the Thruway... not sure about other states).

I'm not a fan of roads that require you to have a transponder, and I can't think of any examples outside of Texas (except for the truck transponder requirement on the 407 ETR in Ontario).

[oscar]

I'm not a fan of roads that require you to have a transponder, and I can't think of any examples outside of Texas (except for the truck transponder requirement on the 407 ETR in Ontario).

The Express Lanes network in northern Virginia (parts of I-66, I-95, I-395, I-495) requires an E-ZPass transponder.

[jmacswimmer]

Cross-post from the PA Turnpike News thread that I think is also quite relevant here:

The PTC will lay off its toll collectors and make cashless tolling permanent, effective immediately:

https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-to-lay-off-500-employees-make-cashless-tolling-permanent/