New Jersey Turnpike

[Tonytone]

Soooo any one know when this will be fixed. Sorry im late to the party.



Ill go put on my 60's mobster suit.


iPhone

[vdeane]

Part of the problem with using MUTCD required numbering on the NJT is that the system in the Manual simply doesn't take into account the reality of the pre-existing toll roads in the Northeast. It was designed for the newly built free interstates that exist in most of the country. It's as if the Feds didn't even know the toll roads existed.

And unfortunately trying to renumber the NJT or NY Thruway using current MUTCD standards is at best a clumsy adaptation of those standards and no matter how ya' set it up, it's not going to be a good fit. There is no easy and logical solution.

And the dumb ass driving public will be scratching their heads every time the numbers change along the route.

Thank you for saying (but better) what I've been trying to say both there and in the NY Thruway topic. Trying to retro-fit numbering exit by route on the pre-existing toll roads is clumsy as evidenced by the Pennsylvania Turnpike where saying "PA Turnpike Exit n"  means nothing without knowing which of the five interstate routes (I-76, I-276, I-95, I-476, and I-70 (not that it factors into the exit numbering)) it's on. "Pennsylvania Turnpike"  no longer has any meaning in navigation directions.


iPad

Not really.  The core Pennsylvania Turnpike (ignoring the Pittsburgh expressways) has only two sets of numbers - one for I-76/I-276 (I-276 continues I-76's numbers, and I don't think I've seen anyone other than you think of that as confusing), and one for I-476.  The part that is I-95 was functionally expelled from the Turnpike when that happened, even though the PTC continues to maintain it and collects a toll entering from NJ.  Since the Northeast Extension is really a completely separate road that happens to intersect and be integrated into the ticket system, it's actually LESS confusing now than when it used the same exit numbers.

Granted, the Thruway is a bit more complicated with the Berkshire Spur and with the I-87/I-90 situation not lending itself to easy solutions that work both ways like I-76/I-276/I-476 did.

Soooo any one know when this will be fixed. Sorry im late to the party.



Ill go put on my 60's mobster suit.


iPhone

Late to the party is right!  That was fixed two years ago.

[Tonytone]

Part of the problem with using MUTCD required numbering on the NJT is that the system in the Manual simply doesn't take into account the reality of the pre-existing toll roads in the Northeast. It was designed for the newly built free interstates that exist in most of the country. It's as if the Feds didn't even know the toll roads existed.

And unfortunately trying to renumber the NJT or NY Thruway using current MUTCD standards is at best a clumsy adaptation of those standards and no matter how ya' set it up, it's not going to be a good fit. There is no easy and logical solution.

And the dumb ass driving public will be scratching their heads every time the numbers change along the route.

Thank you for saying (but better) what I've been trying to say both there and in the NY Thruway topic. Trying to retro-fit numbering exit by route on the pre-existing toll roads is clumsy as evidenced by the Pennsylvania Turnpike where saying "PA Turnpike Exit n"  means nothing without knowing which of the five interstate routes (I-76, I-276, I-95, I-476, and I-70 (not that it factors into the exit numbering)) it's on. "Pennsylvania Turnpike"  no longer has any meaning in navigation directions.


iPad

Not really.  The core Pennsylvania Turnpike (ignoring the Pittsburgh expressways) has only two sets of numbers - one for I-76/I-276 (I-276 continues I-76's numbers, and I don't think I've seen anyone other than you think of that as confusing), and one for I-476.  The part that is I-95 was functionally expelled from the Turnpike when that happened, even though the PTC continues to maintain it and collects a toll entering from NJ.  Since the Northeast Extension is really a completely separate road that happens to intersect and be integrated into the ticket system, it's actually LESS confusing now than when it used the same exit numbers.

Granted, the Thruway is a bit more complicated with the Berkshire Spur and with the I-87/I-90 situation not lending itself to easy solutions that work both ways like I-76/I-276/I-476 did.

Soooo any one know when this will be fixed. Sorry im late to the party.



Ill go put on my 60's mobster suit.


iPhone

Late to the party is right!  That was fixed two years ago.

Holy sh** really?

Sadly the GPS doesnt take you the new way



iPhone

[SignBridge]

Vdeane, you presented an interesting theory and you might be right. If so, it's taking a lot longer for the toll roads to die off than the Feds probably thought it would back in the 1950's. LOL

And istone19, we're close in age and may see this issue with a little wider perspective than some of the younger people here might. It pays to have lived through the history of a lot of this stuff. 

[ilpt4u]

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11707.0

I-95 is officially continuous thru NJ

[lstone19]

Not really.  The core Pennsylvania Turnpike (ignoring the Pittsburgh expressways) has only two sets of numbers - one for I-76/I-276 (I-276 continues I-76's numbers, and I don't think I've seen anyone other than you think of that as confusing), and one for I-476.  The part that is I-95 was functionally expelled from the Turnpike when that happened, even though the PTC continues to maintain it and collects a toll entering from NJ.  Since the Northeast Extension is really a completely separate road that happens to intersect and be integrated into the ticket system, it's actually LESS confusing now than when it used the same exit numbers.

I very much doubt most of the public really sees the change that leads you to say the I-95 part was "functionally expelled"  from the Turnpike. What those of us who are "highway aware"  and what the general public see are very different.

I am aware that the ticket section of the PA Turnpike  only has two sets of numbers and yet if the reason for pushing to renumber roads like the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway is the public expects numbering by route, then why is it OK to not start the numbers over for I-276? You can't have it both ways.

As for confusing, prior to the renumbering, I knew exits/plazas 1 to 30 were the mainline and 31 to 38 were the NE extension. Now we have (in my opinion) the absurdity that PA Turnpike Exit 56 is in Allentown while PA Turnpike Exit 57 is in Pittsburgh. Saying "PA Turnpike Exit 56"  doesn't tell me much unless I already know 56 in on the NE extension. It was easy to memorize the ranges that were mainline and NE extension. But it's no longer ranges - it's more of a scattershot arrangement of what's mainline and what's NE extension. And if I, someone who takes an interest in roads, is confused, I'm sure much of the general public is confused (or if not confused, frustrated by a numbering system that is not intuitive like the old system).


iPad

[Ned Weasel]

I very much doubt most of the public really sees the change that leads you to say the I-95 part was "functionally expelled"  from the Turnpike. What those of us who are "highway aware"  and what the general public see are very different.

I am aware that the ticket section of the PA Turnpike  only has two sets of numbers and yet if the reason for pushing to renumber roads like the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway is the public expects numbering by route, then why is it OK to not start the numbers over for I-276? You can't have it both ways.

As for confusing, prior to the renumbering, I knew exits/plazas 1 to 30 were the mainline and 31 to 38 were the NE extension. Now we have (in my opinion) the absurdity that PA Turnpike Exit 56 is in Allentown while PA Turnpike Exit 57 is in Pittsburgh. Saying "PA Turnpike Exit 56"  doesn't tell me much unless I already know 56 in on the NE extension. It was easy to memorize the ranges that were mainline and NE extension. But it's no longer ranges - it's more of a scattershot arrangement of what's mainline and what's NE extension. And if I, someone who takes an interest in roads, is confused, I'm sure much of the general public is confused (or if not confused, frustrated by a numbering system that is not intuitive like the old system).

I kind of agree that the PA Turnpike's numbering system with the conversion of both the mainline and Northeast Extension to I-76 and I-476 mileage-based exit numbering respectively, is awkward at best.  You can see from this sign right here: https://goo.gl/maps/WcBNdToLxvYPMsGU8 , how they want to keep considering it as a unified exit numbering system, yet it's obvious from the sign alone that the numbers have taken on a very discontinuous order.  And, if I'm not mistaken, it's only by pure luck that the numbers on the Northeast Extension don't repeat the lower numbers on I-76.  What if they build a new tourist attraction just north of US 22 that warrants adding an Exit 57 to the Northeast Extension?  That would ruin the system as we know it!

Someone else made the point that many of the turnpikes and older toll roads are not well covered by the MUTCD rules.  The best examples that come to my mind are:

On the topic at hand:  The New Jersey Turnpike.  Solution?  Start I-95 exit numbering at around 50 instead of 0 at the PA/NJ state line?  It's a loose interpretation of the MUTCD, but I like it.  However, it raises the question, how do you ensure that the new Western Spur and Newark Bay Extension numbers don't conflict with any of the lower numbers on the Turnpike Mainline or I-95's numbers respectively, assuming you want the whole Turnpike's exit numbers to be treated as a unified system?

Pennsylvania Turnpike.  It's already been decided, but it doesn't seem to please everyone.

New York State Thruway.  This is another tough one.  The simplest solution is to just use continuous I-90 numbering from west to east, and then use I-87 numbering from south to north, but doing that immediately sacrifices a logical flow of numbers on the Thruway mainline, so you would just have to think of I-87 and I-90 as different Thruways.

Ohio Turnpike.  Probably best to leave it as it is and just let I-76's numbers jump when it connects to the Turnpike.  But the MUTCD gods would frown on this.

Kansas Turnpike.  Similar.  Keep Turnpike numbering on I-335 and I-470, causing I-335 not to start at 0 just like I-276, and causing a huge jump in exit numbers on I-470, just like I-76 in Ohio.  Then switch the I-70 portion to I-70 numbering, causing a jump in Kansas Turnpike exit numbers that probably most people wouldn't notice because I-70 seems to be the more dominant through route, anyway.

Tri-State Tollway.  It's already weird.  The exit numbers go up for eastbound I-94, and then they go down for southbound I-294.  Probably the only thing that bugs people is the I-80/294 concurrency, and probably many of us would agree it would be better to use I-80's exit numbers on that portion instead.

The Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes in Oklahoma don't have this problem; they just use I-44 exit numbering.  The problem comes in where I-44 connects to what I believe is technically the northern end of the Creek Turnpike just south of where it becomes the Will Rogers Turnpike, and I-44 suddenly jumps down to Creek Turnpike exit numbering.  Come on, would it be that hard to just use I-44 exit numbering there?

Any others?

[roadman65]

Then not to mention on I-44 E Bound they do not give an exit number to US 412 east and the Creek Turnpike as part of the same flaw you mention.

[jeffandnicole]

Sadly the GPS doesnt take you the new way

GPS primarily works by taking you the fastest route, not the signed route.  In that case, the primary routing shown above would almost always be the fastest.  It's shorter, and based on posted speed limits, faster. However, I'd bet if there was a major issue on the NJ Turnpike between Exits 1 & 6, the I-95 routing may be the preferred path in that case.

Another example would be going from Philly to Newark, DE.  The normal primary route would be 95 to 495 around Wilmington back to 95...not 95 the entire way.

Now, their secondary and thirdinary options are sometimes very questionable.  Why isn't one of the 3 options following I-95? 

[Tonytone]

Sadly the GPS doesnt take you the new way

GPS primarily works by taking you the fastest route, not the signed route.  In that case, the primary routing shown above would almost always be the fastest.  It's shorter, and based on posted speed limits, faster. However, I'd bet if there was a major issue on the NJ Turnpike between Exits 1 & 6, the I-95 routing may be the preferred path in that case.

Another example would be going from Philly to Newark, DE.  The normal primary route would be 95 to 495 around Wilmington back to 95...not 95 the entire way.

Now, their secondary and thirdinary options are sometimes very questionable.  Why isn't one of the 3 options following I-95?

Exactly. The timing on the I-95 route with the new connection fixing the I-95 gap would probably be as good as NJTP as long as there is no traffic on I-95.

Also thats true it makes sense for the GPS to use the fastest route & shortest.

But idk whats up with the 2nd & 3rd route. Ive never seen that route that takes you into the hills of PA & NY.


iPhone

[lstone19]

Now, their secondary and thirdinary options are sometimes very questionable.

Today's vocabulary lesson: tertiary, not thirdinary. I'm thinking tertiary is probably a word you've heard but weren't sure what it meant.

And I agree about them being questionable. I'd love to see them give you reasons for the alternatives. Maybe something like "this route is 14 minutes longer but uses less crowded roads resulting in easier driving."

[jeffandnicole]

Sadly the GPS doesnt take you the new way

GPS primarily works by taking you the fastest route, not the signed route.  In that case, the primary routing shown above would almost always be the fastest.  It's shorter, and based on posted speed limits, faster. However, I'd bet if there was a major issue on the NJ Turnpike between Exits 1 & 6, the I-95 routing may be the preferred path in that case.

Another example would be going from Philly to Newark, DE.  The normal primary route would be 95 to 495 around Wilmington back to 95...not 95 the entire way.

Now, their secondary and thirdinary options are sometimes very questionable.  Why isn't one of the 3 options following I-95?

Exactly. The timing on the I-95 route with the new connection fixing the I-95 gap would probably be as good as NJTP as long as there is no traffic on I-95.

In free-flow conditions, staying on I-95 the entire way is 3.9 miles longer than using the NJ Turnpike, and takes approximately 6 - 8 extra minutes.

Even taking I-295 between the Delaware Memorial Bridge and NJ 73 to bypass the Turnpike in either direction is faster than staying on I-95 the whole way thru this area.

Thus, it takes an unusual issue on the Turnpike to suggest I-95 as a primary route thru the area.  Even congestion on the Turnpike could be offset by congestion on I-95, still making the Turnpike the better route.

Now, their secondary and thirdinary options are sometimes very questionable.

Today's vocabulary lesson: tertiary, not thirdinary. I'm thinking tertiary is probably a word you've heard but weren't sure what it meant.

Yeah, I took some liberties there using thirdinary.  After all, I did have the squiggly lines below the word!   

[jemacedo9]

Now we have (in my opinion) the absurdity that PA Turnpike Exit 56 is in Allentown while PA Turnpike Exit 57 is in Pittsburgh. Saying “PA Turnpike Exit 56” doesn’t tell me much unless I already know 56 in on the NE extension.

No one around here says "PA Turnpike Exit 56".  They say "Northeast Extension Exit 56".

If you're coming from the west, no one is going to say "take the PA Turnpike to Exit 56" without mentioning that you switch from the main (or mainline) Turnpike to the Northeast Extension.

[lstone19]

No one around here says "PA Turnpike Exit 56".  They say "Northeast Extension Exit 56".

If you're coming from the west, no one is going to say "take the PA Turnpike to Exit 56" without mentioning that you switch from the main (or mainline) Turnpike to the Northeast Extension.

It only takes one person to prove a "no one" (or "everyone") statement false and I'm going to be that one person. If I was not aware of the PA Turnpike's awkward renumbering, I would most definitely be saying "PA Turnpike Exit whatever" because on the PA Turnpike I knew when I was younger, that was adequate to identify which part of road (mainline or NE extension) and approximate location. I wager someone who lives quite away from it but is familiar with it from past experience and is unaware of the renumbering would not expect the current system where exit numbers intertwine between mainline and NE extension.

[vdeane]

Vdeane, you presented an interesting theory and you might be right. If so, it's taking a lot longer for the toll roads to die off than the Feds probably thought it would back in the 1950's. LOL

And istone19, we're close in age and may see this issue with a little wider perspective than some of the younger people here might. It pays to have lived through the history of a lot of this stuff. 

There were a few states that took federal money to build interstate connections to toll roads and incurred an obligation in federal law to remove the tolls once the construction bonds were paid off; unfortunately, they successfully lobbied Congress to get that provision removed.

Now we have (in my opinion) the absurdity that PA Turnpike Exit 56 is in Allentown while PA Turnpike Exit 57 is in Pittsburgh. Saying "PA Turnpike Exit 56"  doesn't tell me much unless I already know 56 in on the NE extension.

No one around here says "PA Turnpike Exit 56".  They say "Northeast Extension Exit 56".

If you're coming from the west, no one is going to say "take the PA Turnpike to Exit 56" without mentioning that you switch from the main (or mainline) Turnpike to the Northeast Extension.

Exactly.  I don't understand why one would think of the mainline and Northeast Extension as one road.  They intersect at a T (with respect to the toll system; for the past 25-30 years, I-476 has had a connection to the south), for crying out loud!  If someone just said "PA Turnpike exit X", I'd assume the mainline unless I heard otherwise.

One can't even refer to the PA Turnpike without qualifiers anymore anyways, and the reason has nothing to do with exit numbers, and everything to do with the additional spurs in Pittsburgh, none of which are properly connected to the rest of the system (though I-376 comes very close and probably has contiguous PTC maintenance, it's still a Breezewood).

In hindsight, the PTC's decision to continue the numbering as if the Northeast Extension was an actual extension and not the spur it really is was very, very stupid.  They should have probably done what the Thruway did with the Berkshire Spur if they wanted a unified numbering system.

Not really.  The core Pennsylvania Turnpike (ignoring the Pittsburgh expressways) has only two sets of numbers - one for I-76/I-276 (I-276 continues I-76's numbers, and I don't think I've seen anyone other than you think of that as confusing), and one for I-476.  The part that is I-95 was functionally expelled from the Turnpike when that happened, even though the PTC continues to maintain it and collects a toll entering from NJ.  Since the Northeast Extension is really a completely separate road that happens to intersect and be integrated into the ticket system, it's actually LESS confusing now than when it used the same exit numbers.

I very much doubt most of the public really sees the change that leads you to say the I-95 part was "functionally expelled"  from the Turnpike. What those of us who are "highway aware"  and what the general public see are very different.

I am aware that the ticket section of the PA Turnpike  only has two sets of numbers and yet if the reason for pushing to renumber roads like the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway is the public expects numbering by route, then why is it OK to not start the numbers over for I-276? You can't have it both ways.

As for confusing, prior to the renumbering, I knew exits/plazas 1 to 30 were the mainline and 31 to 38 were the NE extension. Now we have (in my opinion) the absurdity that PA Turnpike Exit 56 is in Allentown while PA Turnpike Exit 57 is in Pittsburgh. Saying "PA Turnpike Exit 56"  doesn't tell me much unless I already know 56 in on the NE extension. It was easy to memorize the ranges that were mainline and NE extension. But it's no longer ranges - it's more of a scattershot arrangement of what's mainline and what's NE extension. And if I, someone who takes an interest in roads, is confused, I'm sure much of the general public is confused (or if not confused, frustrated by a numbering system that is not intuitive like the old system).


iPad

I'm pretty sure the PTC doesn't even use Turnpike branding anymore for the section east of I-95.  For all intents and purposes, they truncated it.

I fail to see how I-276's exit numbers would be as bad as I-90 and I-87.  It has one and only one set of numbers - they just don't start at 0.  I-87 and I-90, however, have THREE, one of which is backwards on I-90.  It's not even close, especially since the MUTCD doesn't explicitly say that exit numbers/mileage must start at 0.

I very much doubt most of the public really sees the change that leads you to say the I-95 part was "functionally expelled"  from the Turnpike. What those of us who are "highway aware"  and what the general public see are very different.

I am aware that the ticket section of the PA Turnpike  only has two sets of numbers and yet if the reason for pushing to renumber roads like the NJ Turnpike and the NY Thruway is the public expects numbering by route, then why is it OK to not start the numbers over for I-276? You can't have it both ways.

As for confusing, prior to the renumbering, I knew exits/plazas 1 to 30 were the mainline and 31 to 38 were the NE extension. Now we have (in my opinion) the absurdity that PA Turnpike Exit 56 is in Allentown while PA Turnpike Exit 57 is in Pittsburgh. Saying "PA Turnpike Exit 56"  doesn't tell me much unless I already know 56 in on the NE extension. It was easy to memorize the ranges that were mainline and NE extension. But it's no longer ranges - it's more of a scattershot arrangement of what's mainline and what's NE extension. And if I, someone who takes an interest in roads, is confused, I'm sure much of the general public is confused (or if not confused, frustrated by a numbering system that is not intuitive like the old system).

I kind of agree that the PA Turnpike's numbering system with the conversion of both the mainline and Northeast Extension to I-76 and I-476 mileage-based exit numbering respectively, is awkward at best.  You can see from this sign right here: https://goo.gl/maps/WcBNdToLxvYPMsGU8 , how they want to keep considering it as a unified exit numbering system, yet it's obvious from the sign alone that the numbers have taken on a very discontinuous order.  And, if I'm not mistaken, it's only by pure luck that the numbers on the Northeast Extension don't repeat the lower numbers on I-76.  What if they build a new tourist attraction just north of US 22 that warrants adding an Exit 57 to the Northeast Extension?  That would ruin the system as we know it!

Someone else made the point that many of the turnpikes and older toll roads are not well covered by the MUTCD rules.  The best examples that come to my mind are:

On the topic at hand:  The New Jersey Turnpike.  Solution?  Start I-95 exit numbering at around 50 instead of 0 at the PA/NJ state line?  It's a loose interpretation of the MUTCD, but I like it.  However, it raises the question, how do you ensure that the new Western Spur and Newark Bay Extension numbers don't conflict with any of the lower numbers on the Turnpike Mainline or I-95's numbers respectively, assuming you want the whole Turnpike's exit numbers to be treated as a unified system?

Pennsylvania Turnpike.  It's already been decided, but it doesn't seem to please everyone.

New York State Thruway.  This is another tough one.  The simplest solution is to just use continuous I-90 numbering from west to east, and then use I-87 numbering from south to north, but doing that immediately sacrifices a logical flow of numbers on the Thruway mainline, so you would just have to think of I-87 and I-90 as different Thruways.

Ohio Turnpike.  Probably best to leave it as it is and just let I-76's numbers jump when it connects to the Turnpike.  But the MUTCD gods would frown on this.

Kansas Turnpike.  Similar.  Keep Turnpike numbering on I-335 and I-470, causing I-335 not to start at 0 just like I-276, and causing a huge jump in exit numbers on I-470, just like I-76 in Ohio.  Then switch the I-70 portion to I-70 numbering, causing a jump in Kansas Turnpike exit numbers that probably most people wouldn't notice because I-70 seems to be the more dominant through route, anyway.

Tri-State Tollway.  It's already weird.  The exit numbers go up for eastbound I-94, and then they go down for southbound I-294.  Probably the only thing that bugs people is the I-80/294 concurrency, and probably many of us would agree it would be better to use I-80's exit numbers on that portion instead.

The Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes in Oklahoma don't have this problem; they just use I-44 exit numbering.  The problem comes in where I-44 connects to what I believe is technically the northern end of the Creek Turnpike just south of where it becomes the Will Rogers Turnpike, and I-44 suddenly jumps down to Creek Turnpike exit numbering.  Come on, would it be that hard to just use I-44 exit numbering there?

Any others?

Another solution for the NJ Turnpike would be to have I-95 use its own numbers for the PA Turnpike Extension and jump where it joins the Turnpike mainline to the Turnpike numbers.  For Newark Bay, I'd just use I-78 numbers and fudge them if any conflict with the mainline numbers.  The Western Spur would probably have to be fudged - I wonder if an exception could be made to the MUTCD to keep the E/W numbers?

On the PA Turnpike, the Northeast Extension numbers were fudged to not conflict with mainline numbers.  As for the sign, that's probably the ticket system combined with institutional inertia.  It would be interesting to see if there are any changes there now that they're all-electronic.

[storm2k]

I look at this way. Consider the "NJ Turnpike" to be the primary route you're basing the numbers off of, like it's a numbered route. This is how most motorists understand it anyway. You don't usually say "I'm heading to 95," you say "I'm heading to the Turnpike". Then you can just follow the rules for multiplexed routes, where the "primary" route continues the mileage and exit numbering, which is basically what you already have and continue the Turnpike's numbering to the GWB. Most long haul traffic passing through NJ on the Turnpike aren't going to get off to follow 95 even with the connection completed, because if your destination is Delaware, Baltimore, DC, or points south, that's going to add distance and most likely a lot of time since 95 passes directly through the heart of two metropolitan areas (Philadelphia and Wilmington). It just strikes me as the more logical way of looking at everything, and I don't see the Turnpike Authority changing anything anytime soon. Such as how they seem to have no inclination to move to mileage based exit numbering, even if they "cleaned up" some of the Parkway's exit numbering inconsistencies in the recent resigning projects.

[lstone19]

Exactly.  I don't understand why one would think of the mainline and Northeast Extension as one road.  They intersect at a T (with respect to the toll system; for the past 25-30 years, I-476 has had a connection to the south), for crying out loud!  If someone just said "PA Turnpike exit X", I'd assume the mainline unless I heard otherwise.

Because you're 29 and are too young to remember when the PA Turnpike was commonly thought of as one road and marketed that way (and I-476 south of the Turnpike came much later). The first time I rode the PA Turnpike (way too young to drive), I don't believe the NE Extension had a number so what else did you call it but "PA Turnpike". Later in your note, you made note of "institutional inertia". How about "human inertia"? People remember the terminology they first encountered and are slow to change. Near where I live in Illinois, the I-355 Tollway (originally the North-South Tollway, now the Veterans Memorial Tollway) open in 1989. Before it opened, IL-53 was routed from the north via I-290 and a previous three mile freeway stub leading to where the I-355 Tollway would start. When the tollway opened, the I-355 designation was applied to the free stub as well and IL-53 was moved to parallel surface road. And yet here it is 31 years later and people still refer to that free stub as well as I-290 north of it as "53". There hasn't been a sign saying it's IL-53 during that time, the signs even make it clear where IL-53 leaves its freeway route north of there and yet people still say it. Heck, I can remember even traffic reporters (who should know better) still calling it "53" ten or 15 years after the change. Like it or not, drivers are very slow to pick up on changes to how routes are routed.

In hindsight, the PTC's decision to continue the numbering as if the Northeast Extension was an actual extension and not the spur it really is was very, very stupid.  They should have probably done what the Thruway did with the Berkshire Spur if they wanted a unified numbering system.

That I agree with. The Thruway got it right (don't forget the N exit numbers on the Niagara Thruway (I-190)) as did the NJ Turnpike (since this is that road's topic) with 14A, B, and C. But now what the PA Turnpike is essentially saying is "remember what we taught you about how our exit numbers work? Please try to completely forget about it and pretend we never did that. And if you can't forget, you'll just have to be confused."

I'm pretty sure the PTC doesn't even use Turnpike branding anymore for the section east of I-95.  For all intents and purposes, they truncated it.

Again, "human inertia". To many of us, regardless of how they brand it, it's the PA Turnpike all the way from Ohio to New Jersey.

But I realized from my own driving that I really only care about exit numbers when doing long-distance driving. Locally, I never look at exit numbers and might not even notice if they changed. I know the roads so well most of the time I don't even need signs at all.

Long distance, if it's a road I've driven before, I'd notice if the road switched from sequential numbers to mileage as did the Indiana Toll Road and Ohio Turnpike many years ago. One thing I noticed about the Ohio Turnpike was how many years they left up the "Old Exit XX" signs. They seemed to understand that it would take people years to fully adapt and this on a road with no spurs. Note also that they went with "Ohio Turnpike" as the base route for numbering - not I-80 and then I-76. And if it's a road completely new to me, then I wouldn't care as I'd have no prior experience to compare to.

We are going to just have to disagree on most of this but I think some of the toll roads have an identity crisis. I just don't believe you can market the road name and then do exits and mileposts by route number. Here in Illinois, I've found that use of the names of the tollways has faded as three of four of them have been renamed and they've been re-mileposted and given exit numbers based on the route, not the tollway name. I predict in 15 to 20 years, the use of the Pennsylvania Turnpike name will fade too.

If the NJ Turnpike wants to de-emphasize their name, then go ahead and re-number based on route numbers. But so long as they think the NJ Turnpike name is important, then people will think of the road as the NJ Turnpike as primary and the route as secondary (if they think about it at all).

One last thing about "human inertia". No doubt one reason I call the Thruway south of Albany by name and not I-87 is due to all the years it wasn't I-87 south of Newburgh (exit 17) when it did its jump across the river to what is now I-684. With no number for that section, what else would people call it but just "the Thruway" and now inertia keeps them thinking of it that way. Likewise with the NJ Turnpike - inertia says south of I-287 isn't I-95. Maybe in another 30 to 40 years, you'll get to the point where for almost all drivers, the Turnpike has always been I-95 north of the PA Turnpike exit but you're not there yet.

[jeffandnicole]

Because you're 29 and are too young to remember when the PA Turnpike was commonly thought of as one road and marketed that way (and I-476 south of the Turnpike came much later). The first time I rode the PA Turnpike (way too young to drive), I don't believe the NE Extension had a number so what else did you call it but "PA Turnpike".

It was PA Route 9.  I believe it was signed as such as well.  I can't speak for your area of the country how anyone talked about the PA Turnpike's Northeast Extension, but here in the east the mainline was the PA Turnpike and Route 9, and eventually I-476, was the Northeast Extension.  At least over here in the east, there was no confusion.  Heck, 476 is still the secondary reference when the highways are talked about.  It's either the Blue Route south of the Turnpike, or the Northeast Extension north of the Turnpike.

If the NJ Turnpike wants to de-emphasize their name, then go ahead and re-number based on route numbers. But so long as they think the NJ Turnpike name is important, then people will think of the road as the NJ Turnpike as primary and the route as secondary (if they think about it at all).

...Likewise with the NJ Turnpike - inertia says south of I-287 isn't I-95. Maybe in another 30 to 40 years, you'll get to the point where for almost all drivers, the Turnpike has always been I-95 north of the PA Turnpike exit but you're not there yet.

This one acts a little different.  I think more people think of the NJ Turnpike going south as I-95 the entire way, especially before the PA Tpk interchange was finished, because there was no indication the Turnpike wasn't 95.  Even the lonely "TO I-95" signs that rarely graced the concrete barrier wall would still make it appear it was 95.

Coming up from Delaware, it was (and still is) very clear I-95 veered to the left and the NJ Turnpike veered to the right.  If you knew how to go, you followed the Turnpike signs.  If you didn't, the confusion wouldn't be apparent until motorists took 95 all the way into NJ and would see "End 95 Begin 295".

[Flyer78]

In hindsight, the PTC's decision to continue the numbering as if the Northeast Extension was an actual extension and not the spur it really is was very, very stupid.  They should have probably done what the Thruway did with the Berkshire Spur if they wanted a unified numbering system.

That I agree with. The Thruway got it right (don't forget the N exit numbers on the Niagara Thruway (I-190)) as did the NJ Turnpike (since this is that road's topic) with 14A, B, and C. But now what the PA Turnpike is essentially saying is "remember what we taught you about how our exit numbers work? Please try to completely forget about it and pretend we never did that. And if you can't forget, you'll just have to be confused."

But... they were changing the exit numbers anyway...  - There was a pretty decent campaign about the change. PennDOT published a book - http://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/pdf/mileageb.pdf - with the updated exits numbers. If there was going to be a change anyway... Why not take look at what else to "fix?"

Other regional overlaps occur - Exit 339 is FT Washington on I-276, and it is City Ave, Exit 339 off I-76. Could people conceivably use that exit pair? Somebody once said it only takes one person to make it so.

How would you have renumbered? Have I-476, from I-95 thru to Clarks Summit have three sets of contiguous exits? Continue from Exit 359, resulting in exits being 339-359 miles off from the "main line?"

I'd be fine with renumbering NJ Turnpike from the southern terminus, if it had to be done. Is it really any difference from new exit 42 in PA to Exit 7 Northbound now?

Yes, I am about 21 years younger than you are. But I can list all sorts of other changes that have been made to the Turnpike System over the years from the mundane (Jersey barriers replacing the old median system) to what mattered as a kid - McDonalds replacing Howard Johnsons - to the really cool, like the new southbound bore of the Lehigh Tunnel, or the massive Mid-County interchange works (old 25A). None of us get to travel the highways of our youth again...

[Tonytone]

Sadly the GPS doesnt take you the new way

GPS primarily works by taking you the fastest route, not the signed route.  In that case, the primary routing shown above would almost always be the fastest.  It's shorter, and based on posted speed limits, faster. However, I'd bet if there was a major issue on the NJ Turnpike between Exits 1 & 6, the I-95 routing may be the preferred path in that case.

Another example would be going from Philly to Newark, DE.  The normal primary route would be 95 to 495 around Wilmington back to 95...not 95 the entire way.

Now, their secondary and thirdinary options are sometimes very questionable.  Why isn't one of the 3 options following I-95?

Exactly. The timing on the I-95 route with the new connection fixing the I-95 gap would probably be as good as NJTP as long as there is no traffic on I-95.

In free-flow conditions, staying on I-95 the entire way is 3.9 miles longer than using the NJ Turnpike, and takes approximately 6 - 8 extra minutes.

Even taking I-295 between the Delaware Memorial Bridge and NJ 73 to bypass the Turnpike in either direction is faster than staying on I-95 the whole way thru this area.

Thus, it takes an unusual issue on the Turnpike to suggest I-95 as a primary route thru the area.  Even congestion on the Turnpike could be offset by congestion on I-95, still making the Turnpike the better route.

Now, their secondary and thirdinary options are sometimes very questionable.

Today's vocabulary lesson: tertiary, not thirdinary. I'm thinking tertiary is probably a word you've heard but weren't sure what it meant.

Yeah, I took some liberties there using thirdinary.  After all, I did have the squiggly lines below the word! 

Why does 95 just cut across to NJ anyway? Why didnt they continue straight across to New York. That mess of interstates & highways is crazy around PA/Jersey.

Seems like 95 had/has a chance of being better then NJTP if it just continued on a straight course.


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[DrSmith]

With AET this will likely matter less as there won't be tickets to follow specific exit numbers in a closed system.

[ilpt4u]

Why does 95 just cut across to NJ anyway? Why didnt they continue straight across to New York. That mess of interstates & highways is crazy around PA/Jersey.

Seems like 95 had/has a chance of being better then NJTP if it just continued on a straight course.

Look up something called the "Somerset Freeway"  It is worth reading about without having anyone on the forum tell you exactly. Google it 

[Tonytone]

Why does 95 just cut across to NJ anyway? Why didnt they continue straight across to New York. That mess of interstates & highways is crazy around PA/Jersey.

Seems like 95 had/has a chance of being better then NJTP if it just continued on a straight course.

Look up something called the "Somerset Freeway"  It is worth reading about without having anyone on the forum tell you exactly. Google it 

I was reading up about that as well, however the somerset freeway was a mess as well. It went no where near NYC. It was to far west.

It was a Highway for the local commercial & residential.


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[jeffandnicole]

Why does 95 just cut across to NJ anyway? Why didnt they continue straight across to New York. That mess of interstates & highways is crazy around PA/Jersey.

Seems like 95 had/has a chance of being better then NJTP if it just continued on a straight course.

Look up something called the "Somerset Freeway"  It is worth reading about without having anyone on the forum tell you exactly. Google it 

I was reading up about that as well, however the somerset freeway was a mess as well. It went no where near NYC. It was to far west.

It was a Highway for the local commercial & residential.


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Huh?  It was on a path directly to NYC. 

[Tonytone]

Why does 95 just cut across to NJ anyway? Why didnt they continue straight across to New York. That mess of interstates & highways is crazy around PA/Jersey.

Seems like 95 had/has a chance of being better then NJTP if it just continued on a straight course.

Look up something called the "Somerset Freeway"  It is worth reading about without having anyone on the forum tell you exactly. Google it 

I was reading up about that as well, however the somerset freeway was a mess as well. It went no where near NYC. It was to far west.

It was a Highway for the local commercial & residential.


iPhone

Huh?  It was on a path directly to NYC.

Now that I look at it. I see how it would have helped, but look how far west it is. Thats why I said that. Current I-95 gets closer to NY then that.

Thats why I said that.


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