Towns you avoid?

[MCRoads]

Almost forgot! NEVER go to Camden. We went across the Ben Franklin Bridge to say we crossed the Delaware (though we crossed on the Delaware Memorial on our way to NYC), and it was atrocious! It was almost as bad as Baltimore! /s.

I'm gonna have to defend Baltimore a bit.  Yes, it has its rough spots for sure - the ones you try to avoid even during the day.  But there are many places in the city that are quite nice.  The Inner Harbor, the National Aquarium, Science Center, Camden Yards and M&T Bank Stadium, Fells Point, etc.  Also many residential neighborhoods are nice.  The city - as a whole - doesn't deserve that reputation.  We call it "Charm City" for a reason

Now ... I will admit that the one time I drove into Camden NJ (coming from Cherry Hill NJ) I soon turned around and went back out ... it got rather icky rather fast.   

Sarcasm implied for the Baltimore comment. Got to go to a summer camp there, and we went through some cosmetically displeasing areas, but nothing as bad as Camden. We saw some people fighting near the Ben Franklin toll plaza, not the safest place.

[dlsterner]

Almost forgot! NEVER go to Camden. We went across the Ben Franklin Bridge to say we crossed the Delaware (though we crossed on the Delaware Memorial on our way to NYC), and it was atrocious! It was almost as bad as Baltimore! /s.

I'm gonna have to defend Baltimore a bit.  Yes, it has its rough spots for sure - the ones you try to avoid even during the day.  But there are many places in the city that are quite nice.  The Inner Harbor, the National Aquarium, Science Center, Camden Yards and M&T Bank Stadium, Fells Point, etc.  Also many residential neighborhoods are nice.  The city - as a whole - doesn't deserve that reputation.  We call it "Charm City" for a reason

Now ... I will admit that the one time I drove into Camden NJ (coming from Cherry Hill NJ) I soon turned around and went back out ... it got rather icky rather fast.   

Sarcasm implied for the Baltimore comment. Got to go to a summer camp there, and we went through some cosmetically displeasing areas, but nothing as bad as Camden. We saw some people fighting near the Ben Franklin toll plaza, not the safest place.

Fair enough

[dlsterner]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

[Tonytone]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

I understand, the fear factor is different when you're up close, but cmon Camden isn't that bad.

There are blocks in N philly that will make Camden look like ardmore, PA.


iPhone

[Roadrunner75]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

I understand, the fear factor is different when you're up close, but cmon Camden isn't that bad.

There are blocks in N philly that will make Camden look like ardmore, PA.


iPhone

Camden isn't really that bad and its getting better again.  It has more than its share of rough areas and a bad reputation but I grew up fairly close to it and have driven through it countless times without incident day and night.

[kphoger]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

I used to make deliveries in East Saint Louis.  That's a town most people in the area avoided but had no problem traversing on the Interstate.

[Tonytone]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

I used to make deliveries in East Saint Louis.  That's a town most people in the area avoided but had no problem traversing on the Interstate.

Exactly. Its like hey that shoe aint on my foot so im not worried.


iPhone

[kphoger]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

I used to make deliveries in East Saint Louis.  That's a town most people in the area avoided but had no problem traversing on the Interstate.

Exactly. Its like hey that shoe aint on my foot so im not worried.

No, I think it's more like driving through on a freeway doesn't really put you "in" a town the way sitting at a stoplight does.  I haven't looked at the numbers, but I suspect car-jackings are less common on Interstates than on city streets.

[Tonytone]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

I used to make deliveries in East Saint Louis.  That's a town most people in the area avoided but had no problem traversing on the Interstate.

Exactly. Its like hey that shoe aint on my foot so im not worried.

No, I think it's more like driving through on a freeway doesn't really put you "in" a town the way sitting at a stoplight does.  I haven't looked at the numbers, but I suspect car-jackings are less common on Interstates than on city streets.

Or maybe if you are scary you think everything is like a movie or GTA game.


iPhone

[kphoger]

Most of my customers were at fairly secure facilities, including the federal court house, the East Saint Louis campus of SIU, and once even (very secure!) the federal prison.  Still, though, out of the probably 100 towns I delivered to as part of that job, East Saint Louis was the only where I made sure to shut off the truck and put the keys in my pocket when making deliveries.

[Tonytone]

Most of my customers were at fairly secure facilities, including the federal court house, the East Saint Louis campus of SIU, and once even (very secure!) the federal prison.  Still, though, out of the probably 100 towns I delivered to as part of that job, East Saint Louis was the only where I made sure to shut off the truck and put the keys in my pocket when making deliveries.

Now dont get me wrong you do have to make sure valuables or your vehicle isnt running while in areas that have higher crime but that can also be anywhere else as well.

But seeing a place & turning around is crazy that reminds me of something that would happen in the "white flight"  era.


iPhone

[kphoger]

Now dont get me wrong you do have to make sure valuables or your vehicle isnt running while in areas that have higher crime but that can also be anywhere else as well.

That year, East Saint Louis topped 100 homicides per 100,000 population.  Burglaries were over 2200 per 100,00 population.  For the sake of comparison, that's roughly twice what Camden had for the year.  East Saint Louis really is a very high-crime town.

[Flint1979]

Now dont get me wrong you do have to make sure valuables or your vehicle isnt running while in areas that have higher crime but that can also be anywhere else as well.

That year, East Saint Louis topped 100 homicides per 100,000 population.  Burglaries were over 2200 per 100,00 population.  For the sake of comparison, that's roughly twice what Camden had for the year.  East Saint Louis really is a very high-crime town.

East St. Louis makes Detroit look like paradise.

[STLmapboy]

Now dont get me wrong you do have to make sure valuables or your vehicle isnt running while in areas that have higher crime but that can also be anywhere else as well.

That year, East Saint Louis topped 100 homicides per 100,000 population.  Burglaries were over 2200 per 100,00 population.  For the sake of comparison, that's roughly twice what Camden had for the year.  East Saint Louis really is a very high-crime town.

I was driving in an out-of-towner's car once (returning from Marion, IL) and Waze put us through ESTL to avoid a crash at the MLK Bridge/freeway interchange. It was five minutes on surface streets (passing by the likes of this and this), but it felt like an eternity. It's one of the few places I've encountered a shot-out traffic light.

[Tonytone]

Now dont get me wrong you do have to make sure valuables or your vehicle isnt running while in areas that have higher crime but that can also be anywhere else as well.

That year, East Saint Louis topped 100 homicides per 100,000 population.  Burglaries were over 2200 per 100,00 population.  For the sake of comparison, that's roughly twice what Camden had for the year.  East Saint Louis really is a very high-crime town.

I was driving in an out-of-towner's car once (returning from Marion, IL) and Waze put us through ESTL to avoid a crash at the MLK Bridge/freeway interchange. It was five minutes on surface streets (passing by the likes of this and this), but it felt like an eternity. It's one of the few places I've encountered a shot-out traffic light.

This right here is very clean. Chester, Pa has much worse just like Kensington in Philly.

The thing alot of people don't realize in areas that are "ghetto/hood"  if you act like a regular person just going on about your business no one will mess with you.

However acting scared & looking like you are lost will probably attract some attention.


iPhone

[J N Winkler]

I used East St. Louis as a secondary hub when I visited St. Louis four years ago.  It does have many shuttered buildings and patches of urban prairie where vacant houses have been demolished.  My experience with depressed neighborhoods is much as Tonytone describes--be purposive and look like you know what you are doing, and you generally won't be bothered.

I actually did some exploration on foot in the neighborhood surrounding the Emerson Park Metrolink station, which is near the I-55/I-64/SR 3 interchange complex where I-70 ties back in after crossing the Mississippi River.  I left my car unattended in the lot there for about eight hours on Sunday; the only additional measure I took to protect it was to park directly underneath one of the lamps.  (I locked it after I ensured no loose objects could be seen through the windows, but I do this whenever I park for an extended period of time.  I know from personal experience that even in safe neighborhoods thieves will think nothing about causing $200 worth of damage to a car door to get at a camera tripod that looks valuable but is only worth about $30.)

The real issue with East. St. Louis, I think, is that I-55/I-64/I-70 just east of the Mississippi River is a cat's cradle with confusing and overloaded signing.  It becomes easy to navigate once you memorize the lane and ramp layouts, but it takes time to do so, and off the freeway it can be challenging to find a place where you can pull over and study a map undisturbed.  At one point I got lost after dark trying to make a connection to SR 3 northbound (I was staying at a motel just off I-270/SR 3 near the Chain of Rocks Bridge), and pulled into a gas station on Collinsville Avenue.  I had people approaching me, presumably to try scams.

[thspfc]

The real issue with East. St. Louis, I think, is that I-55/I-64/I-70 just east of the Mississippi River is a cat's cradle with confusing and overloaded signing.  It becomes easy to navigate once you memorize the lane and ramp layouts, but it takes time to do so, and off the freeway it can be challenging to find a place where you can pull over and study a map undisturbed.  At one point I got lost after dark trying to make a connection to SR 3 northbound (I was staying at a motel just off I-270/SR 3 near the Chain of Rocks Bridge), and pulled into a gas station on Collinsville Avenue.  I had people approaching me, presumably to try scams.

That sounds scary. Honestly if I was ever in that situation I'd just find a way to get across the river to downtown St. Louis where the crime isn't as bad, and try to figure it out from there.

[kphoger]

Being in the middle of downtown East Saint Louis isn't bad.  But, if you get off the beaten path, you find yourself surrounded by more sketchy folk.  For example, when I had to make a deliver near here, I wasn't sure I should even get out of the truck based on the hairy eyeballs I was getting from everyone along the street.  Then I realized that a big truck with a company name on it, and a guy getting out of said truck with boxes in hand, is a different situation than Joe Schmoe getting out of his car.

[texaskdog]

Sheesh you guys must close your eyes when I-95 passes through Chester.

There's a definite difference in passing through an area on a limited access highway and passing through an area on a surface street.

I have no issues with I-95 through Chester.  My venture into Camden was on a surface street.

I used to make deliveries in East Saint Louis.  That's a town most people in the area avoided but had no problem traversing on the Interstate.

Went to Fantasyland there 22 years ago.  definitely was the "other side of the tracks"

[kphoger]

My favorite thing about East St Louis is knowing that Miles Davis and Jackie Joyner-Kersee both went to East St Louis Lincoln HS.

[hbelkins]

Bet Clark W. Griswold Jr. will never drive through East St. Louis ever again.

[Roadgeekteen]

Not a town and not somewhere where I might actively avoid, but Baltimore gave me a bad vibe the last time it was there. It was during the 2015 protests though.

[STLmapboy]

Not a town and not somewhere where I might actively avoid, but Baltimore gave me a bad vibe the last time it was there. It was during the 2015 protests though.

Ever seen "The Wire"?

[Roadgeekteen]

Not a town and not somewhere where I might actively avoid, but Baltimore gave me a bad vibe the last time it was there. It was during the 2015 protests though.

Ever seen "The Wire"?

No but I didn't any of that stuff.

[J N Winkler]

That sounds scary. Honestly if I was ever in that situation I'd just find a way to get across the river to downtown St. Louis where the crime isn't as bad, and try to figure it out from there.

It was a well-lit location with potential witnesses nearby, so I was more concerned about the nuisance value than any threat to my safety.  A person who is trying to scam you for money is probably not going to mug you, though it certainly does make sense to "stay in Condition Yellow to stay out of Condition Red" (as dozens of self-defense how-to books preach).

Retreating across the river to St. Louis was not a viable option.  When I got lost at the beginning, the freeway was not in sight.  When I stopped at the gas station, it was right in front of me, but there was no on-ramp nearby, and I actually suspect the nearest one that would have taken me to St. Louis was at SR 3, the route I was trying to find.

Being in the middle of downtown East Saint Louis isn't bad.  But, if you get off the beaten path, you find yourself surrounded by more sketchy folk.  For example, when I had to make a deliver near here, I wasn't sure I should even get out of the truck based on the hairy eyeballs I was getting from everyone along the street.  Then I realized that a big truck with a company name on it, and a guy getting out of said truck with boxes in hand, is a different situation than Joe Schmoe getting out of his car.

Once a neighborhood falls in on itself by depopulating, so that patches of urban prairie start appearing while occupied structures fall into visible dilapidation, four-way stops (as shown in your StreetView extract) start appearing at every street intersection, not always as replacements for signals that are decommissioned due to lack of traffic.  This is true not just in East St. Louis but also in, e.g., the Fountain neighborhood of St. Louis, which is just west of the oak/hickory woodland that has replaced the long-demolished Pruitt-Igoe housing project.

I try to stay out of these thickets of four-way stops for multiple reasons--they drive up wear and tear on brakes and suspension, they make it impossible to keep moving, and they expose me to hassle from law enforcement for not drawing to a full and complete stop at each and every intersection.

This said, I think East St. Louis is less ill-favored than the now-tiny burg of Venice, Illinois, which I passed through on SR 3 every time I used it to connect to my motel near the I-270 interchange.  Venice is among several former factory towns on the Illinois side of the St. Louis metro area that are now essentially Love Canal-like toxic waste dumps, owing in part to it being formerly legal in Illinois for companies to charter their own towns and thus evade independent public-health oversight.