How One's Perceptions are Shaped by Where One Lives

[1995hoo]

He's pretty much like Kernals12 when it comes to transit here.

I strongly suspect, in view of how he refuses to consider the legitimacy of any arguments that disagree with his own viewpoints, that he shares something else with kernals12.

kernals12 posts like a kid. HighwayStar does not. I'm almost certain they're not the same person. I can't imagine kernals12 making long and detailed (but wrong) arguments about economic theory and price gouging or about redlining.

I didn't mean to suggest they're the same person. It's eminently clear they are not. My comment was more in the nature of the reason why both of them are so unwilling to concede the validity of any position that doesn't agree with theirs.

[SEWIGuy]

You do realize there are trade offs here that people can find positive right?

Don't have to worry about parking
Someone else can do the driving while you can do something else
The cost of purchasing and maintaining a car.

One of my kids used to live in Chicago without a car.  He could do pretty much whatever he wanted with public transit and Uber.  If he wanted to drive somewhere, he would reserve a rental from the local Enterprise.  Another one currently lives in Tokyo, and the idea of even driving a car makes no sense to him.  He can get anywhere in the city he wants without much effort outside of walking three blocks to the train station.  And if wants to go to a different part of the country, the train can take him there too.

I mentioned parking above, he said something about a city providing adequate parking would make it a non-issue.

I guess his ideal cityscape is 1960s Houston, with lots of parking. Looks like a part of the city got bombed in WW2 or something.

Why would a city want to use valuable real estate as temporary car storage versus a building where people can live or generate economic activity?

[ran4sh]

Another point that HighwayStar forgot, is that when you use public transit you can only use it according to their schedule, but with a car you can use it any time you want and/or need to. It's easy for pro-car people to forget this point, because the idea of having to follow a transit schedule is not something we normally think about.

(And yes, if transit's frequency is high enough, then in practice the riders don't consult schedules. But getting to that frequency is expensive.)

[TXtoNJ]

You do realize there are trade offs here that people can find positive right?

Don't have to worry about parking
Someone else can do the driving while you can do something else
The cost of purchasing and maintaining a car.

One of my kids used to live in Chicago without a car.  He could do pretty much whatever he wanted with public transit and Uber.  If he wanted to drive somewhere, he would reserve a rental from the local Enterprise.  Another one currently lives in Tokyo, and the idea of even driving a car makes no sense to him.  He can get anywhere in the city he wants without much effort outside of walking three blocks to the train station.  And if wants to go to a different part of the country, the train can take him there too.

I mentioned parking above, he said something about a city providing adequate parking would make it a non-issue.

I guess his ideal cityscape is 1960s Houston, with lots of parking. Looks like a part of the city got bombed in WW2 or something.

Why would a city want to use valuable real estate as temporary car storage versus a building where people can live or generate economic activity?

Sprawl is about maximizing profits - increasing land value the most while implementing the fewest improvements. Individual landowners loved paving over lots in the '60s, because they could charge for parking, they didn't have to maintain the property beyond a minimal level, "improving" was very cheap, and the lots would be easily sold for redevelopment if surrounding land values increased.

Since the US (and Houston in particular) prioritizes the interests of individual landowners over public good, you end up with the picture above.

[1995hoo]

Building on what TxtoNJ says, Houston is also unique among American cities in that it doesn't have zoning for land use. I knew someone from Houston who laughed about how her church backed up to, and shared a dumpster with, a titty bar. That sort of thing would never be permitted in many places. (I don't know if it's still the case, but in DC for many years churches could veto liquor licenses for businesses within a certain radius of the church property.)

[vdeane]

Another one I thought of: there's a gas station right on my route home (from most everywhere), so I tend to think of getting gas as something that is not at all inconvenient (especially as I get it en route somewhere when on the road).  This becomes an interesting contrast when reading discussions on electric vehicles, as the EV enthusiasts always bring up how easy home charging is and how inconvenient it is to go out and get gas.  I usually have to think about the trips out to get gas that I do when visiting my parents (who don't conveniently have a Stewart's Shop or Fastrac with gas right on the roads from I-590 to their house).

[jeffandnicole]

• Inherently not point to point, the Bus/Train/Trolley etc. does not come to my door, and likely requires a few blocks of transit on foot

I'd understand this issue if you said a mile or more. 

I take a leisurely walk to my local convenience store, a few blocks away, for milk.  Outside, without any climate control.

I walk a shopping center to go from one end to the other. Outside, without any climate control.

If you are so unwilling to walk a few blocks to catch a bus, I can only imagine how reliant you are on your car to drive very minimal distances.  [/list]

[kphoger]

Me in every other city I visit: "Why are there fewer freeways, but their interchanges are all bigger and better than ours?"

And where did all the cloverleaves go?

[HighwayStar]

• Inherently not point to point, the Bus/Train/Trolley etc. does not come to my door, and likely requires a few blocks of transit on foot

I'd understand this issue if you said a mile or more. 

I take a leisurely walk to my local convenience store, a few blocks away, for milk.  Outside, without any climate control.

I walk a shopping center to go from one end to the other. Outside, without any climate control.

If you are so unwilling to walk a few blocks to catch a bus, I can only imagine how reliant you are on your car to drive very minimal distances.  [/list]

Good for you, but when the rain is coming down in sheets, or or the temp is -20, or 100 with full sun, none of those things are as pleasant as just being able to drive.
And I have no desire to walk several blocks in adverse weather only to get on a bus filled with panhandlers and other people and wallow in their filth.

[hotdogPi]

filled with panhandlers

I've never had a single person panhandle on the bus. They may do so outside before they get on, but not once they've paid.

wallow in their filth.

Not my experience.

[1995hoo]

filled with panhandlers

I've never had a single person panhandle on the bus. They may do so outside before they get on, but not once they've paid.

wallow in their filth.

Not my experience.

Well, bear in mind he says he's from Philadelphia, so it's understandable that he has that totally accurate impression of his city. His mistake (well, one of his many mistakes) is that he isn't able to understand that not all cities are as bad as his is.

[HighwayStar]

filled with panhandlers

I've never had a single person panhandle on the bus. They may do so outside before they get on, but not once they've paid.

wallow in their filth.

Not my experience.

Well, bear in mind he says he's from Philadelphia, so it's understandable that he has that totally accurate impression of his city. His mistake (well, one of his many mistakes) is that he isn't able to understand that not all cities are as bad as his is.

I have lived in 5 different cities and visited countless others in my time, been panhandled in every place I rode public transit. DC, NYC, Philadelphia, Dallas, London, you name it.

[SkyPesos]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

[HighwayStar]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

[US 89]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

I have ridden transit numerous times in multiple cities including NYC, London, DC, Boston, Atlanta, San Francisco, and probably more that I'm forgetting. I have only had to deal with a panhandler once, on the Marta train in Atlanta.

[1995hoo]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

I have ridden transit numerous times in multiple cities including NYC, London, DC, Boston, Atlanta, San Francisco, and probably more that I'm forgetting. I have only had to deal with a panhandler once, on the Marta train in Atlanta.

But you have to understand HighwayStar's thought process: If he claims something happened to him, then in his mind nobody else's experience is valid because his experience is absolute truth.

I just ignore any panhandlers I encounter. Never had a problem doing that.

[jeffandnicole]

filled with panhandlers

I've never had a single person panhandle on the bus. They may do so outside before they get on, but not once they've paid.

wallow in their filth.

Not my experience.

Well, bear in mind he says he's from Philadelphia, so it's understandable that he has that totally accurate impression of his city. His mistake (well, one of his many mistakes) is that he isn't able to understand that not all cities are as bad as his is.

He may be from "Philadelphia", but maybe not in Philadelphia. The vast majority of those in Philly live in rowhouses where one parks on the street, and it's often unlikely you'll always get a spot in front of your home or even on your block. Certainly, he could live in a house with a driveway/garage, in a condo with dedicated parking, or otherwise have convenient access to parking, but as in many cities, many people don't have their car right outside their door every day & night.

[SEWIGuy]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

That is quite the assertion.  You think that "many" people are "impoverished by choice???"

I have ridden transit numerous times in multiple cities including NYC, London, DC, Boston, Atlanta, San Francisco, and probably more that I'm forgetting. I have only had to deal with a panhandler once, on the Marta train in Atlanta.

I am sure I have had to as well, I just don't remember the circumstance.  It's usually a brief interaction.  Simply part of being in a city.

[hbelkins]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

That is quite the assertion.  You think that "many" people are "impoverished by choice???"

My guess is that the reference is to addiction. Drug use is a choice. People make the conscious decision to recreationally use addictive substances and that addiction can lead to homelessness and poverty. No one is forced to shoot up smack or snort blow or smoke meth.

[hotdogPi]

My guess is that the reference is to addiction. Drug use is a choice. People make the conscious decision to recreationally use addictive substances and that addiction can lead to homelessness and poverty. No one is forced to shoot up smack or snort blow or smoke meth.

1. Peer pressure is a very strong factor, and they feel like they might not have a choice, even if they do.

2. Doctors overprescribing painkillers.

[zachary_amaryllis]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

I have ridden transit numerous times in multiple cities including NYC, London, DC, Boston, Atlanta, San Francisco, and probably more that I’m forgetting. I have only had to deal with a panhandler once, on the Marta train in Atlanta.

this is nothing. try leaving the local walmart. or king soopers. one guy wasn't even asking for money, he wanted to know if i could spare a bud.

edited: fixed the screwy quote.

[SEWIGuy]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

That is quite the assertion.  You think that "many" people are "impoverished by choice???"

My guess is that the reference is to addiction. Drug use is a choice. People make the conscious decision to recreationally use addictive substances and that addiction can lead to homelessness and poverty. No one is forced to shoot up smack or snort blow or smoke meth.

I don't think this is the reason many are homeless.  I think many homeless have drug issues, but isn't really the underlying reason.

[kphoger]

But you have to understand HighwayStar's thought process: If he claims something happened to him, then in his mind nobody else's experience is valid because his experience is absolute truth.

Yep.

I remember waiting for a Metra train in suburban Chicago and striking up a conversation with a total stranger.  Neither one of us had particularly pressing plans, so we decided to just hang out around the city for the rest of the day.  We visited a church in the Austin neighborhood, grabbed some greasy burgers, went down to the Grant Park area, etc.  We ended up being casual friends for a year or two.  I remember taking an audio Frank Lloyd Wright tour of Oak Park with him once, he once gave me some hand-me-down coats, stuff like that.  Some of our conversations about Christianity have helped shape my theological opinions.  If I hadn't been taking public transit that day, "surrounded by strangers", then we never would have met.

Another time, I kept running into a semi-homeless man while riding the bus and the train in the suburb I lived in.  After two or three times bumping into each other, we started up a conversation on the bus.  For reasons both medical and otherwise, it was difficult for him to get and keep a job, and he didn't really have much family around to help him out.  Every month or two for a while, I'd help him out with groceries, even gave him a ride somewhere once or twice.  He asked me for a Bible to read at night in his cheap motel room.  If I hadn't been taking public transit, or if I had loathed being around down-and-out strangers, then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to lend him some help.

I've never been panhandled on the bus or train, but I have been plenty of times at or outside the station.  Sometimes I've helped them out (I once bought groceries for a couple of people while transferring buses at the old Saint Louis Greyhound station 13th & Cass, for example) and sometimes I've ignored them.  But I've also been panhandled just walking down the street, so I don't see how it's any different from that.

[HighwayStar]

^ Then the problem is homelessness/poverty in those cities, not transit.

No, the problem is not enforcing the damn law. Panhandling is illegal on public transit, but no one is willing to fix the problem. Many of those people are homeless and impoverished by choice rather than circumstance. Its an inherent feature of transit that you are vulnerable to that kind of harassment. Fortunately the town car has thick doors.

I have ridden transit numerous times in multiple cities including NYC, London, DC, Boston, Atlanta, San Francisco, and probably more that I'm forgetting. I have only had to deal with a panhandler once, on the Marta train in Atlanta.

But you have to understand HighwayStar's thought process: If he claims something happened to him, then in his mind nobody else's experience is valid because his experience is absolute truth.

I just ignore any panhandlers I encounter. Never had a problem doing that.

That's all fine and dandy, until they chase after you because they thought they were owed something. Being followed and harassed by deranged people is no one's idea of a picnic.
And yes, all this HAS HAPPENED, I know its hard to believe other people have a rich tapestry of experiences to draw on, but its true. Moreover, I know a fair number of people that have had similar experiences in a variety of cities.

[hotdogPi]

That's all fine and dandy, until they chase after you because they thought they were owed something. Being followed and harassed by deranged people is no one's idea of a picnic.

They don't chase after a single person. If you say no, they try to find someone else.