How One's Perceptions are Shaped by Where One Lives

[HighwayStar]

But you have to understand HighwayStar's thought process: If he claims something happened to him, then in his mind nobody else's experience is valid because his experience is absolute truth.

Yep.

I remember waiting for a Metra train in suburban Chicago and striking up a conversation with a total stranger.  Neither one of us had particularly pressing plans, so we decided to just hang out around the city for the rest of the day.  We visited a church in the Austin neighborhood, grabbed some greasy burgers, went down to the Grant Park area, etc.  We ended up being casual friends for a year or two.  I remember taking an audio Frank Lloyd Wright tour of Oak Park with him once, he once gave me some hand-me-down coats, stuff like that.  Some of our conversations about Christianity have helped shape my theological opinions.  If I hadn't been taking public transit that day, "surrounded by strangers", then we never would have met.

Another time, I kept running into a semi-homeless man while riding the bus and the train in the suburb I lived in.  After two or three times bumping into each other, we started up a conversation on the bus.  For reasons both medical and otherwise, it was difficult for him to get and keep a job, and he didn't really have much family around to help him out.  Every month or two for a while, I'd help him out with groceries, even gave him a ride somewhere once or twice.  He asked me for a Bible to read at night in his cheap motel room.  If I hadn't been taking public transit, or if I had loathed being around down-and-out strangers, then I wouldn't have had the opportunity to lend him some help.

I've never been panhandled on the bus or train, but I have been plenty of times at or outside the station.  Sometimes I've helped them out (I once bought groceries for a couple of people while transferring buses at the old Saint Louis Greyhound station 13th & Cass, for example) and sometimes I've ignored them.  But I've also been panhandled just walking down the street, so I don't see how it's any different from that.

Let me put it this way, I have NEVER been panhandled in the car. People standing around outside sure, but being behind a locked door I don't have to worry about that. And walking down the street is an inherent part of using public transit, again NOT point to point.

[HighwayStar]

That's all fine and dandy, until they chase after you because they thought they were owed something. Being followed and harassed by deranged people is no one's idea of a picnic.

They don't chase after a single person. If you say no, they try to find someone else.

Except sometimes they do, been there, done that. Actually there were 2 of us, and they STILL chased us, granted the person I was with would have been no help at all.

[HighwayStar]

You do realize there are trade offs here that people can find positive right?

Don't have to worry about parking
Someone else can do the driving while you can do something else
The cost of purchasing and maintaining a car.

One of my kids used to live in Chicago without a car.  He could do pretty much whatever he wanted with public transit and Uber.  If he wanted to drive somewhere, he would reserve a rental from the local Enterprise.  Another one currently lives in Tokyo, and the idea of even driving a car makes no sense to him.  He can get anywhere in the city he wants without much effort outside of walking three blocks to the train station.  And if wants to go to a different part of the country, the train can take him there too.

I mentioned parking above, he said something about a city providing adequate parking would make it a non-issue.

I guess his ideal cityscape is 1960s Houston, with lots of parking. Looks like a part of the city got bombed in WW2 or something.

Why would a city want to use valuable real estate as temporary car storage versus a building where people can live or generate economic activity?

Sprawl is about maximizing profits - increasing land value the most while implementing the fewest improvements. Individual landowners loved paving over lots in the '60s, because they could charge for parking, they didn't have to maintain the property beyond a minimal level, "improving" was very cheap, and the lots would be easily sold for redevelopment if surrounding land values increased.

Since the US (and Houston in particular) prioritizes the interests of individual landowners over public good, you end up with the picture above.

"public good" yeah, because that is easy to define. I would argue the public good is better served by infrastructure that facilitates personalized transportation rather than a one size fits all approach.
I find sprawl nice actually, more space, plenty of shopping, and inherently hostile to foot traffic that tends to bring crime and other issues. Houston, Dallas, etc. are actually great city layouts today, easy to get around in the comfort of your car.

[JayhawkCO]

"public good" yeah, because that is easy to define. I would argue the public good is better served by infrastructure that facilitates personalized transportation rather than a one size fits all approach.
I find sprawl nice actually, more space, plenty of shopping, and inherently hostile to foot traffic that tends to bring crime and other issues. Houston, Dallas, etc. are actually great city layouts today, easy to get around in the comfort of your car.

Foot traffic is a major driver of crime?  Europe must just be completely crime-ridden everywhere you go.  Japan too.

Chris

[HighwayStar]

"public good" yeah, because that is easy to define. I would argue the public good is better served by infrastructure that facilitates personalized transportation rather than a one size fits all approach.
I find sprawl nice actually, more space, plenty of shopping, and inherently hostile to foot traffic that tends to bring crime and other issues. Houston, Dallas, etc. are actually great city layouts today, easy to get around in the comfort of your car.

Foot traffic is a major driver of crime?  Europe must just be completely crime-ridden everywhere you go.  Japan too.

Chris

Not foot traffic itself, that is a strawman, but environments favorable to foot traffic.

The comparison to Europe and Japan is entirely irrelevant. Neither is culturally or historically similar to the United States for direct comparison. In the case of Japan also I have doubts about the data quality. Now that said, some of the worst issues with being harassed on foot I had in Europe, so it happens there too.

[kphoger]

I have NEVER been panhandled in the car.

I have.  Therefore your point is not valid.

Wow, this makes arguments so much easier!

[JayhawkCO]

"public good" yeah, because that is easy to define. I would argue the public good is better served by infrastructure that facilitates personalized transportation rather than a one size fits all approach.
I find sprawl nice actually, more space, plenty of shopping, and inherently hostile to foot traffic that tends to bring crime and other issues. Houston, Dallas, etc. are actually great city layouts today, easy to get around in the comfort of your car.

Foot traffic is a major driver of crime?  Europe must just be completely crime-ridden everywhere you go.  Japan too.

Chris

Not foot traffic itself, that is a strawman, but environments favorable to foot traffic.

The comparison to Europe and Japan is entirely irrelevant. Neither is culturally or historically similar to the United States for direct comparison. In the case of Japan also I have doubts about the data quality. Now that said, some of the worst issues with being harassed on foot I had in Europe, so it happens there too.

Those comparisons are 100% relevant.  You made the claim that having areas with high foot traffic tend to bring crime.  I give you examples where that does not apply, and you drop some faux logical fallacies.  I've been to Europe upwards of 25-30 times and have had only one incident that would remotely qualify as "harassment", and that was in a train station in Bucharest where some Romani guys told me I had to leave the station to change money.  I knew that not to be true and possibly avoided getting mugged outside of the watching eyes of the station police. Maybe you just look like an easy mark?

Chris

[Rothman]

I have NEVER been panhandled in the car.

I have.  Therefore your point is not valid.

Wow, this makes arguments so much easier!

If you pass a homeless guy holding a sign at an intersection, that counts as panhandling.

[kphoger]

Maybe you just look like an easy mark?

I'm starting to think it must be something like that.  I've never had anyone following me, except when I had already helped someone else out, and they wondered if I might help them out too.  Just saying no has always worked.  If someone keeps following, then there's probably a reason.

(That was the Saint Louis incident I referred to earlier.  I left the 13th/Cass bus station before dawn looking for breakfast, with a suitcase and vase of flowers in hand (I was on my way to meet my now-wife in person for the first time).  A homeless man came up and warned me that I shouldn't be walking around that neighborhood at that time, and I explained I was looking for somewhere to grab breakfast while I waited for my next bus.  He offered to walk with me up to White Castle, as protection, in exchange for my buying him breakfast.  After getting back to the station, I had a while to wait still, so I ventured out again (now after dawn).  Some relative of the man had heard I helped him out, so he asked if I could buy him some groceries.  We went into the grocery store together, and I bought him some groceries.  Word got around, and another couple asked if I could go with them to the thrift store to buy some clothes for their kids.  Time was getting on, and I didn't really feel like buying gifts for the entire north side of Saint Louis, so I said no and went back to the bus station.)

I have NEVER been panhandled in the car.

I have.  Therefore your point is not valid.

Wow, this makes arguments so much easier!

If you pass a homeless guy holding a sign at an intersection, that counts as panhandling.

Even if it didn't count, I've had plenty of people talk to me through the window of my car.  That's hardly any different than on the sidewalk, or in a bus station.

Sometimes I've given them some change, sometimes I've pulled over at a gas station and bought lunch to bring out to them, usually I just ignore them or tell them no.

[SkyPesos]

Even if it didn't count, I've had plenty of people talk to me through the window of my car.  That's hardly any different than on the sidewalk, or in a bus station.

Sometimes I've given them some change, sometimes I've pulled over at a gas station and bought lunch to bring out to them, usually I just ignore them or tell them no.

I think HighwayStar have windows closed all the time. Based on the posts above, he probably think he's too good for walking on the street, and looks down on people that do. He also likes bad walking infrastructure and forcing everyone to drive from point A to B as he thinks it reduces crime issues.

[kphoger]

I don't think this is the reason many are homeless.  I think many homeless have drug issues, but isn't really the underlying reason.

For the conversation at hand, it doesn't really matter what causes homelessness.  He just doesn't want to be around them, no matter what put them in that situation.  And he's far from the only person who would rather not be around them.

And walking down the street is an inherent part of using public transit

Depends.  Sometimes, the bus stop is closer to your destination than the available parking.  I'd rather get off the bus right at the nearest corner than go hunting down side streets for a parking spot and then have to walk to my destination–especially if I'm worried about crime.  Then too, if I were worried about being harassed, I'd rather be on the sidewalk with a bunch of strangers (witnesses) than by myself between rows of empty cars in a dimly lit parking garage.

foot traffic that tends to bring crime and other issues

Outside of a density of public transit, both foot traffic and crime tend to come with poverty.  It sounds more like you just don't want to live anywhere that there are any people who can't afford a car–or anywhere that there are people who can't afford to make ends meet and resort to asking for handouts.  Well, that's your prerogative;  just don't go blaming sidewalks or bus stops for poverty and crime.

Not foot traffic itself, that is a strawman

If it's a strawman, then it's one you used.

I've been to Europe upwards of 25-30 times and have had only one incident that would remotely qualify as "harassment", and that was in a train station in Bucharest where some Romani guys told me I had to leave the station to change money.  I knew that not to be true and possibly avoided getting mugged outside of the watching eyes of the station police. Maybe you just look like an easy mark?

I've crossed the Mexican border at least twenty times, of which seven were just across the border for a couple of hours and the rest were to the interior for a week or so.  I've walked a couple of miles in Tijuana;  I've taken first-class, second-class, and chicken-class buses;  I've driven my own US-plated car, I've rented a car.  The only time I felt uncomfortable from someone on the street was when I was parallel-parking along the Malecón in Puerto Vallarta, and a guy noticed we were gringos driving a Nayarit-plated vehicle and asked (in English) if our car was a rental or if we had bought one down there.  Not sure why he would want to know that, unless he were planning to steal it.

In contrast, perhaps the friendliest person I've encountered while traveling was a lady behind me on the intercity bus between Ciudad Juárez and Ciudad Chihuahua.

I think HighwayStar ... likes bad walking infrastructure and forcing everyone to drive from point A to B as he thinks it reduces crime issues.

As if somehow everyone will magically have enough money to buy and maintain a car.

People will walk if they need to walk–whether there are sidewalks or not.  In their absence, the people just make muddy paths through the grass.

[JayhawkCO]

Outside of a density of public transit, both foot traffic and crime tend to come with poverty.  It sounds more like you just don't want to live anywhere that there are any people who can't afford a car–or anywhere that there are people who can't afford to make ends meet and resort to asking for handouts.  Well, that's your prerogative;  just don't go blaming sidewalks or bus stops for poverty and crime.

I'm getting a very strong Montgomery County vibe from him.  Almost everyone I know from there or Bucks County has this kind of mentality - repping Philly as where they're from but don't like anything about the urban part of the city itself. 

Chris

[TXtoNJ]

"public good" yeah, because that is easy to define. I would argue the public good is better served by infrastructure that facilitates personalized transportation rather than a one size fits all approach.
I find sprawl nice actually, more space, plenty of shopping, and inherently hostile to foot traffic that tends to bring crime and other issues. Houston, Dallas, etc. are actually great city layouts today, easy to get around in the comfort of your car.

Not everyone is as misanthropic as you are.

[HighwayStar]

Outside of a density of public transit, both foot traffic and crime tend to come with poverty.  It sounds more like you just don't want to live anywhere that there are any people who can't afford a car–or anywhere that there are people who can't afford to make ends meet and resort to asking for handouts.  Well, that's your prerogative;  just don't go blaming sidewalks or bus stops for poverty and crime.

I'm getting a very strong Montgomery County vibe from him.  Almost everyone I know from there or Bucks County has this kind of mentality - repping Philly as where they're from but don't like anything about the urban part of the city itself. 

Chris

Nope, Philadelphia County, and not even from the city so not trying to claim it as a birthright (as if anyone would).

[US 89]

I have NEVER been panhandled in the car.

I have.  Therefore your point is not valid.

Wow, this makes arguments so much easier!

If you pass a homeless guy holding a sign at an intersection, that counts as panhandling.

Even if that doesn't count it's happened to me before. I was once stopped on a freeway exit ramp in Atlanta and was harassed by these three guys who would block traffic on the ramp until someone bought a bottle of water from them. Similar thing happened in Austin except there it was two guys trying to wash my windows.

[TheGrassGuy]

I thought every state's county route system worked like New Jersey's.

Imagine my shock when I visited Monmouth County for the first time.

[SectorZ]

Outside of a density of public transit, both foot traffic and crime tend to come with poverty.  It sounds more like you just don't want to live anywhere that there are any people who can't afford a car–or anywhere that there are people who can't afford to make ends meet and resort to asking for handouts.  Well, that's your prerogative;  just don't go blaming sidewalks or bus stops for poverty and crime.

I'm getting a very strong Montgomery County vibe from him.  Almost everyone I know from there or Bucks County has this kind of mentality - repping Philly as where they're from but don't like anything about the urban part of the city itself. 

Chris

Nope, Philadelphia County, and not even from the city so not trying to claim it as a birthright (as if anyone would).

Aren't the city and country co-extensive?

[Max Rockatansky]

Those from Texas seemingly assumes everyone knows what Bucee's is and loves it as much as they do.  That is unless you're from El Paso I'm to understand...but do they really count as Texas?

[Bruce]

I've had panhandlers walk up to my car and attempt to open the doors while in the drive-thru. Does this make all drive-thrus crime-ridden hellholes?

Panhandlers onboard transit are extremely rare in Seattle, despite our homelessness crisis.

[JayhawkCO]

Outside of a density of public transit, both foot traffic and crime tend to come with poverty.  It sounds more like you just don't want to live anywhere that there are any people who can't afford a car–or anywhere that there are people who can't afford to make ends meet and resort to asking for handouts.  Well, that's your prerogative;  just don't go blaming sidewalks or bus stops for poverty and crime.

I'm getting a very strong Montgomery County vibe from him.  Almost everyone I know from there or Bucks County has this kind of mentality - repping Philly as where they're from but don't like anything about the urban part of the city itself. 

Chris

Nope, Philadelphia County, and not even from the city so not trying to claim it as a birthright (as if anyone would).

Aren't the city and country co-extensive?

Only since 1854.

Chris

[HighwayStar]

Outside of a density of public transit, both foot traffic and crime tend to come with poverty.  It sounds more like you just don't want to live anywhere that there are any people who can't afford a car–or anywhere that there are people who can't afford to make ends meet and resort to asking for handouts.  Well, that's your prerogative;  just don't go blaming sidewalks or bus stops for poverty and crime.

I'm getting a very strong Montgomery County vibe from him.  Almost everyone I know from there or Bucks County has this kind of mentality - repping Philly as where they're from but don't like anything about the urban part of the city itself. 

Chris

Nope, Philadelphia County, and not even from the city so not trying to claim it as a birthright (as if anyone would).

Aren't the city and country co-extensive?

Only since 1854.

Chris

You are correct, and one would think that Philadelphia would thus be clear, but since some come up with other counties I had to clarify the county as well.

[hotdogPi]

He's saying that if you live in Philadelphia County, then you live in the city proper (which you said you didn't).

[HighwayStar]

I've had panhandlers walk up to my car and attempt to open the doors while in the drive-thru. Does this make all drive-thrus crime-ridden hellholes?

Panhandlers onboard transit are extremely rare in Seattle, despite our homelessness crisis.

Keyword there is "attempt" ie. the door can be locked, so you have some measure of protection from such intrusions.
I would much rather use a drive through from the safety of my car than ride public transit.

As bad as Seattle is getting its only a matter of time before it becomes a regular occurrence.

[HighwayStar]

He's saying that if you live in Philadelphia County, then you live in the city proper (which you said you didn't).

Where did I say I did not live in the city proper?

[JayhawkCO]

He's saying that if you live in Philadelphia County, then you live in the city proper (which you said you didn't).

Where did I say I did not live in the city proper?

I think your statement about birthright was misconstrued.  You weren't born in Philly but live there now.

Chris